TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

Have the liquid GSRA version which pays guaranteed 3% but is now up to 5% for new investments. My total blend is about 3.4%. I have a fair amount of cash in my fidelity retirement fund (six figures) and have been using TIAA as my 20% bond allocation.

I am trying to figure out a way to reset the entire amount to 5% and eliminate my blend. I came up with the idea of exchanging the entire amount with a fidelity money market fund that is offered in my retirement account. This MMF is currently returning 4.5%. Then after 120 days I would exchange back in to the TIAA fund at 5%. TIAA appears to have a rule that if your return before 120 days you get your old yield (3.4% blend in my case).

The only other potential issue is that the MMF may be considered a “competing” fund to TIAA which would disallow a direct exchange. However, fidelity said it was not. Unfortunately fidelity also said I can exchange back into TIAA after only 30 days… so I am not fully trusting their advice on a non fidelity product.

I am hoping that someone has taken on a similar adventure and can report on the result. Did it go smoothly? Did you reset your yield to the higher amount?

Thank you
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:54 pm Have the liquid GSRA version which pays guaranteed 3% but is now up to 5% for new investments. My total blend is about 3.4%. I have a fair amount of cash in my fidelity retirement fund (six figures) and have been using TIAA as my 20% bond allocation.

I am trying to figure out a way to reset the entire amount to 5% and eliminate my blend. I came up with the idea of exchanging the entire amount with a fidelity money market fund that is offered in my retirement account. This MMF is currently returning 4.5%. Then after 120 days I would exchange back in to the TIAA fund at 5%. TIAA appears to have a rule that if your return before 120 days you get your old yield (3.4% blend in my case).

The only other potential issue is that the MMF may be considered a “competing” fund to TIAA which would disallow a direct exchange. However, fidelity said it was not. Unfortunately fidelity also said I can exchange back into TIAA after only 30 days… so I am not fully trusting their advice on a non fidelity product.

I am hoping that someone has taken on a similar adventure and can report on the result. Did it go smoothly? Did you reset your yield to the higher amount?

Thank you
Many of us have already done this recently, although not all of us have a Fidelity MM available. I used a TIAA MM (R1) that pays much, much less, unfortunately. The only downside I know of, besides the unknown rate when you move money back in 120+ days, is that you lose some loyalty bonus (for time in Traditional) that you might otherwise get if you eventually annuitize.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

Thank you. No intent to annuitize in the future. However, going down this newly dug rabbit hole, I also discovered that earlier buckets saw a positive adjustment this week during the annual March 1st adjustment.

If this is true, I suspect my blended return will also go up since I have been contributing steadily over the last 5+ years. Is this accurate? If so, I may wait until the next interest payment and determine my new blended rate before deciding to pull the trigger.

Hard to find the before and after comparison of the buckets. Did the buckets go up by 13%? If so my blend went for 3.4% to around 3.85%?
crefwatch
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by crefwatch »

Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
Learn something new everyday, I did not know that TIAA Traditional can be available via an outside party.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

Ha. Yes, you and fidelity alike!
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
viewtopic.php?p=7142549#p7142549 gave a link to the interest rate before the change and here is teh current rate. https://www.tiaa.org/public/investment- ... r=47933631 So if you can probably compute an estimate if you want.
Last edited by student on Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
That's a difficult situation. I'm guessing Fidelity took over your employer's account from TIAA? I guess I'd be a little worried about moving funds out of TIAA and making the same assumptions that the rest of us did about our ability to move the money back.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:58 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am
crefwatch wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:14 am Your online account view should soon answer your blended rate question. Click on the View Interest Rates link under TIAA Traditional.
I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
That's a difficult situation. I'm guessing Fidelity took over your employer's account from TIAA? I guess I'd be a little worried about moving funds out of TIAA and making the same assumptions that the rest of us did about our ability to move the money back.

I was never with TIAA. This is purely an option in my fidelity retirement account similar to how some vanguard funds are available as well. Problem is that it is a complicated product and much of the strategy is self taught. I have confirmed the 120 day need which you are all aware of and the fact that my fund is liquid and does not get penalized.
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:36 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:58 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 am

I tried creating a TIAA account to view but it was empty. My TIAA fund is in my fidelity retirement account and the information for current rate is limited. In fact it currently states 5% through end of September and I cannot find any correlation to that timeframe on TIAA reports. Fidelity struggles to offer any details on the product and TIAA refers me to fidelity. Quite the black hole
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
That's a difficult situation. I'm guessing Fidelity took over your employer's account from TIAA? I guess I'd be a little worried about moving funds out of TIAA and making the same assumptions that the rest of us did about our ability to move the money back.

I was never with TIAA. This is purely an option in my fidelity retirement account similar to how some vanguard funds are available as well. Problem is that it is a complicated product and much of the strategy is self taught. I have confirmed the 120 day need which you are all aware of and the fact that my fund is liquid and does not get penalized.
I didn't mean you personally were with TIAA, I'm just guessing your employer was previously offered TIAA directly, otherwise I'd be surprised that the TIAA offering would have appeared. But I didn't know TIAA ever offered Traditional through intermediaries so I'm surprised Fidelity could retain that option after taking over the account.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:43 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:36 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:58 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:05 am
What does TIAA say when you contact them? I'm not familiar with this situation.
You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
That's a difficult situation. I'm guessing Fidelity took over your employer's account from TIAA? I guess I'd be a little worried about moving funds out of TIAA and making the same assumptions that the rest of us did about our ability to move the money back.

I was never with TIAA. This is purely an option in my fidelity retirement account similar to how some vanguard funds are available as well. Problem is that it is a complicated product and much of the strategy is self taught. I have confirmed the 120 day need which you are all aware of and the fact that my fund is liquid and does not get penalized.
I didn't mean you personally were with TIAA, I'm just guessing your employer was previously offered TIAA directly, otherwise I'd be surprised that the TIAA offering would have appeared. But I didn't know TIAA ever offered Traditional through intermediaries so I'm surprised Fidelity could retain that option after taking over the account.
Got it. My old employer did not have this option and my current employer has had this option for years. Its fascinating
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by ResearchMed »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:46 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:43 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:36 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:58 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am

You don’t have an account with us, talk to fidelity :)
That's a difficult situation. I'm guessing Fidelity took over your employer's account from TIAA? I guess I'd be a little worried about moving funds out of TIAA and making the same assumptions that the rest of us did about our ability to move the money back.

I was never with TIAA. This is purely an option in my fidelity retirement account similar to how some vanguard funds are available as well. Problem is that it is a complicated product and much of the strategy is self taught. I have confirmed the 120 day need which you are all aware of and the fact that my fund is liquid and does not get penalized.
I didn't mean you personally were with TIAA, I'm just guessing your employer was previously offered TIAA directly, otherwise I'd be surprised that the TIAA offering would have appeared. But I didn't know TIAA ever offered Traditional through intermediaries so I'm surprised Fidelity could retain that option after taking over the account.
Got it. My old employer did not have this option and my current employer has had this option for years. Its fascinating

Our 403b plan had been with TIAA since (forever?? probably since it started, at least since the early 1970s).
In the mid 2000s, the entire plan was moved to Vanguard, *except* for:
- Trad Ann
- TREA
- Several CREF variable annuities.

There had been no brokerage window, but there were a few TIAA-CREF mutual funds. Those either were mapped into a similar Vanguard fund or moved as cash. For example, the "TIAA-CREF Equity Fund" probably went to "Vanguard Total Stock" (I don't remember exactly). However, the "CREF Equity Fund" stayed behind with TIAA.

Why did those several holdings remain at TIAA?
It was explained to us that those particular holdings were contractual between TIAA and the individual account owner. The others were part of a contract between TIAA and the Employer.
Thus those contracts with individuals "could not be moved" without the owner's permission. The investor/employee could sell any of it and have it moved (at that time or later), except for the illiquid Trad Ann. So the linkage with (then) TIAA-CREF couldn't end if someone had that illiquid holding.

This doesn't match the situation with OP, which makes me wonder if the rules had changed at some point?

Nevertheless, I can't imagine that both TIAA and Fidelity can wash their hands of any knowledge about Trad Ann.
Plan participants are entitled to get answers about how their plan - all of it - works, and what they can or cannot do or plan to do with those assets.

Someone has to be in charge of administering that Trad Ann properly... :annoyed
Perhaps a query to DOL will lead to an appropriate contact person?

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

ResearchMed wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:22 am It was explained to us that those particular holdings were contractual between TIAA and the individual account owner. The others were part of a contract between TIAA and the Employer.
Thus those contracts with individuals "could not be moved" without the owner's permission. The investor/employee could sell any of it and have it moved (at that time or later), except for the illiquid Trad Ann. So the linkage with (then) TIAA-CREF couldn't end if someone had that illiquid holding.
This is my understanding too. When institutions move from regular TIAA Traditional to the RC version, people also keep the old version but cannot add it.
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

This seems to be a new situation that most of us are unaware of, where Fidelity is being enable to resell TIAA including Traditional without TIAA engaging in individual contracts with participants. That just seems extraordinary and counter to the model TIAA has always used, but I guess anything is possible.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:40 am This seems to be a new situation that most of us are unaware of, where Fidelity is being enable to resell TIAA including Traditional without TIAA engaging in individual contracts with participants. That just seems extraordinary and counter to the model TIAA has always used, but I guess anything is possible.

In fidelity’s defense, they try to engage. However their advice it poor and flat out misleading which leaves me to figure it out if I want to stay with the TIAA fund.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:40 am This seems to be a new situation that most of us are unaware of, where Fidelity is being enable to resell TIAA including Traditional without TIAA engaging in individual contracts with participants. That just seems extraordinary and counter to the model TIAA has always used, but I guess anything is possible.
It seems that it is more common. Did a quick google search. https://hr.duke.edu/benefits/retirement ... al-annuity It seems that at Duke, they moved from TIAA to Fidelity at some point but retained TIAA Traditional as an option. From my quick glance, it seems that at least at Duke, one can transfer it to TIAA directly.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:50 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:40 am This seems to be a new situation that most of us are unaware of, where Fidelity is being enable to resell TIAA including Traditional without TIAA engaging in individual contracts with participants. That just seems extraordinary and counter to the model TIAA has always used, but I guess anything is possible.

In fidelity’s defense, they try to engage. However their advice it poor and flat out misleading which leaves me to figure it out if I want to stay with the TIAA fund.
See my link to Duke and investigate whether you can transfer this portion of your money directly to TIAA like at Duke. Of course, if you do that, there may no other available options at TIAA.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

student wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:04 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:50 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:40 am This seems to be a new situation that most of us are unaware of, where Fidelity is being enable to resell TIAA including Traditional without TIAA engaging in individual contracts with participants. That just seems extraordinary and counter to the model TIAA has always used, but I guess anything is possible.

In fidelity’s defense, they try to engage. However their advice it poor and flat out misleading which leaves me to figure it out if I want to stay with the TIAA fund.
See my link to Duke and investigate whether you can transfer this portion of your money directly to TIAA like at Duke. Of course, if you do that, there may no other available options at TIAA.
Thank you. Will investigate
crefwatch
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by crefwatch »

Your comments are pretty thorough, but I would move $250 to TIAA Traditional now, to make sure it's not a "legacy" holding, with exit-only liquidity.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

Update: Sold my entire TIAA fund and exchanged into MMF @4.5%. No problem. Will buy back in 120 days assuming TIAA rate > MMF rate.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:38 am Update: Sold my entire TIAA fund and exchanged into MMF @4.5%. No problem. Will buy back in 120 days assuming TIAA rate > MMF rate.
Even if TIAA rate <= MMF rate in 120 days (though I think is unlikely), it may be good to still consider moving due to TIAA bucket system, as the rate is more "stable." Just like money invested in "low" rate environment stayed "low" even now to make you apply this trick, money invested in "high" rate environment may stay "high" during low rate environment.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

student wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:44 am
Owlette678 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:38 am Update: Sold my entire TIAA fund and exchanged into MMF @4.5%. No problem. Will buy back in 120 days assuming TIAA rate > MMF rate.
Even if TIAA rate <= MMF rate in 120 days (though I think is unlikely), it may be good to still consider moving due to TIAA bucket system, as the rate is more "stable." Just like money invested in "low" rate environment stayed "low" even now to make you apply this trick, money invested in "high" rate environment may stay "high" during low rate environment.
Great point. Thank you for that
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

So I am a month in to my exchange and did not consider the fact that my paycheck contributions are still going to my TIAA product within my fidelity 403b, even while the larger amount of cash that was exchanged sits in a fidelity money market fund.

So now I have two new contributions in March of a few hundred dollars.

Will this screw up my 120 day exchange plan? Are these new contributions getting the lower blended interest rate since they bought TIAA within 120 days? I don’t understand how TIAA would recognize these as new contributions vs an early re-exchange back into TIAA from the money market.

Same question can be asked about any protated interest that is paid back into the TIAA account after an exchange.

I worry that I need to exchange these new contributions as well and stop any new contributions until a 120 days from when I do that.

Fidelity can’t help, but perhaps you can!
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:38 am Update: Sold my entire TIAA fund and exchanged into MMF @4.5%. No problem. Will buy back in 120 days assuming TIAA rate > MMF rate.
I would exchange back regardless.
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:57 pm So I am a month in to my exchange and did not consider the fact that my paycheck contributions are still going to my TIAA product within my fidelity 403b, even while the larger amount of cash that was exchanged sits in a fidelity money market fund.

So now I have two new contributions in March of a few hundred dollars.

Will this screw up my 120 day exchange plan? Are these new contributions getting the lower blended interest rate since they bought TIAA within 120 days? I don’t understand how TIAA would recognize these as new contributions vs an early re-exchange back into TIAA from the money market.

Same question can be asked about any protated interest that is paid back into the TIAA account after an exchange.

I worry that I need to exchange these new contributions as well and stop any new contributions until a 120 days from when I do that.

Fidelity can’t help, but perhaps you can!
I don't know, but I'll guess hat your plan will still work the way you intended.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

I think so to, but I’m hoping someone who exchanged for the 120 days and still had new contributions and the last interest payment feed their account comment on what happened!
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by ResearchMed »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:12 am
Owlette678 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:57 pm So I am a month in to my exchange and did not consider the fact that my paycheck contributions are still going to my TIAA product within my fidelity 403b, even while the larger amount of cash that was exchanged sits in a fidelity money market fund.

So now I have two new contributions in March of a few hundred dollars.

Will this screw up my 120 day exchange plan? Are these new contributions getting the lower blended interest rate since they bought TIAA within 120 days? I don’t understand how TIAA would recognize these as new contributions vs an early re-exchange back into TIAA from the money market.

Same question can be asked about any protated interest that is paid back into the TIAA account after an exchange.

I worry that I need to exchange these new contributions as well and stop any new contributions until a 120 days from when I do that.

Fidelity can’t help, but perhaps you can!
I don't know, but I'll guess hat your plan will still work the way you intended.

Owlette678: I was posting and previewing just as you posted again. Here is the answer, at least as it all works in our 403b plan. :happy
And I have no reason to think it would be otherwise in a different plan.
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:09 am I think so to, but I’m hoping someone who exchanged for the 120 days and still had new contributions and the last interest payment feed their account comment on what happened!

Did you have the "new contributions" go *directly* into Trad Ann? Or did the "new money" first go to some other holding within the same 403b account and *then* go into Trad Ann in a separate step?
That will probably make all the difference.

We encountered this, inadvertently, so I quickly checked with our WMA and he got the answer for me in writing.
"NEW" money does NOT "replace money transferred out of Trad Ann". So new contributions of new transfers directly into Trad Ann of money from outside the specific account holding the Trad Ann in question do *NOT* count for the 120 days.
And that's how the money is "tracked".

If, on the other hand, you had the new contribution first go to something like a money market fund, then... yes... it's combined with the rest of the money in that account. And because money is fungible, there isn't a way to separate that "new money" anymore.

Bottom line, after 120+ days, when I moved money back into Trad Ann in that particular account, even though I had transferred money directly into Trad Ann during the 120 days, all of the "transfer back" amount went into the new, higher rate vintage. None of it went back to the original vintage.

This worked because DH had several accounts at TIAA: 403b (Employer contribution); 403b (Employee contribution); TIRA; and Roth IRA. We also have a joint taxable account at TIAA (plus my own much smaller 403b with only Employer contributions as source), but that doesn't include Trad Ann. So DH has 4 separate "Trad Ann" holdings, each with it's own vintage structure.

Yes, it got a bit strange for a while, to fix the error of an automated move into Trad Ann right in the middle of that 120 day period. It was a relatively large sum, so it was worthwhile to do a few steps to get the extra few percentage points.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

ResearchMed wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:26 am
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:12 am
Owlette678 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:57 pm So I am a month in to my exchange and did not consider the fact that my paycheck contributions are still going to my TIAA product within my fidelity 403b, even while the larger amount of cash that was exchanged sits in a fidelity money market fund.

So now I have two new contributions in March of a few hundred dollars.

Will this screw up my 120 day exchange plan? Are these new contributions getting the lower blended interest rate since they bought TIAA within 120 days? I don’t understand how TIAA would recognize these as new contributions vs an early re-exchange back into TIAA from the money market.

Same question can be asked about any protated interest that is paid back into the TIAA account after an exchange.

I worry that I need to exchange these new contributions as well and stop any new contributions until a 120 days from when I do that.

Fidelity can’t help, but perhaps you can!
I don't know, but I'll guess hat your plan will still work the way you intended.

Owlette678: I was posting and previewing just as you posted again. Here is the answer, at least as it all works in our 403b plan. :happy
And I have no reason to think it would be otherwise in a different plan.
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:09 am I think so to, but I’m hoping someone who exchanged for the 120 days and still had new contributions and the last interest payment feed their account comment on what happened!

Did you have the "new contributions" go *directly* into Trad Ann? Or did the "new money" first go to some other holding within the same 403b account and *then* go into Trad Ann in a separate step?
That will probably make all the difference.

We encountered this, inadvertently, so I quickly checked with our WMA and he got the answer for me in writing.
"NEW" money does NOT "replace money transferred out of Trad Ann". So new contributions of new transfers directly into Trad Ann of money from outside the specific account holding the Trad Ann in question do *NOT* count for the 120 days.
And that's how the money is "tracked".

If, on the other hand, you had the new contribution first go to something like a money market fund, then... yes... it's combined with the rest of the money in that account. And because money is fungible, there isn't a way to separate that "new money" anymore.

Bottom line, after 120+ days, when I moved money back into Trad Ann in that particular account, even though I had transferred money directly into Trad Ann during the 120 days, all of the "transfer back" amount went into the new, higher rate vintage. None of it went back to the original vintage.

This worked because DH had several accounts at TIAA: 403b (Employer contribution); 403b (Employee contribution); TIRA; and Roth IRA. We also have a joint taxable account at TIAA (plus my own much smaller 403b with only Employer contributions as source), but that doesn't include Trad Ann. So DH has 4 separate "Trad Ann" holdings, each with it's own vintage structure.

Yes, it got a bit strange for a while, to fix the error of an automated move into Trad Ann right in the middle of that 120 day period. It was a relatively large sum, so it was worthwhile to do a few steps to get the extra few percentage points.

RM

Thank you for the response. I’m dealing with a large sum as well, hence the worry.

The NEW contributions are directly from my paycheck into the TIAA traditional fund. No stopping in a MMF.

The NEW interest payment is partially from the large sum that was exchanged (a few days worth of interest- prorated before it left the account) as well as interest from the two new NEW contributions since early March.

Based on your commentary, it looks like I am good since both the NEW contributions and NEW interest payment came in directly.

The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by tibbitts »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:37 am The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:01 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:37 am The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:01 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:37 am The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
I guess you can compute the interest rate for the contribution by comparing the values of two consecutive days.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:16 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:01 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:37 am The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
I guess you can compute the interest rate for the contribution by comparing the values of two consecutive days.

Sorry, not understanding this recommendation
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:30 pm
student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:16 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:01 am
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:37 am The awkward thing is that I can’t check vintages or any other granular details since fidelity holds this TIAA product and I have no account with TIAA. Really wish I had more control of the information but I very much appreciate your help!
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
I guess you can compute the interest rate for the contribution by comparing the values of two consecutive days.

Sorry, not understanding this recommendation
I assume you want to see what interest rate you are getting on the contribution that you just made, that is, are you getting the current 5.25% or the old rate. TIAA Traditional compounds daily and it updates every business day. So if on Day 1, you have $X and Day 2, you have $Y. You can use them to check whether you are getting 5.25% per annum. Suppose you have $10,000. Then the interest for 1 day is dollars is 10000*((1.0525)^(1/365)-1) dollars, which is about $1.4020.

Please let us whether you are getting the correct rate.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:24 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:30 pm
student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:16 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:01 am
Other people have commented on limited access to TIAA information due to an employer plan held elsewhere, but I don't remember anyone finding a solution.
As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
I guess you can compute the interest rate for the contribution by comparing the values of two consecutive days.

Sorry, not understanding this recommendation
I assume you want to see what interest rate you are getting on the contribution that you just made, that is, are you getting the current 5.25% or the old rate. TIAA Traditional compounds daily and it updates every business day. So if on Day 1, you have $X and Day 2, you have $Y. You can use them to check whether you are getting 5.25% per annum. Suppose you have $10,000. Then the interest for 1 day is dollars is 10000*((1.0525)^(1/365)-1) dollars, which is about $1.4020.

Please let us whether you are getting the correct rate.

Got it. As far as I can tell it accrues daily but is paid monthly (at least that is all I see in Fidelity). I will need to really wait until end of April to figure out the exact return on my new contributions.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:29 pm
student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:24 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:30 pm
student wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:16 pm
Owlette678 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:56 pm

As a follow up, I tried Fidelity once again, and they really tried to help. Unfortunately they had no idea how to answer my questions. They were not familiar with the TIAA product and certainly could not help with the nuances I brought up.

Hopefully it all works out!
I guess you can compute the interest rate for the contribution by comparing the values of two consecutive days.

Sorry, not understanding this recommendation
I assume you want to see what interest rate you are getting on the contribution that you just made, that is, are you getting the current 5.25% or the old rate. TIAA Traditional compounds daily and it updates every business day. So if on Day 1, you have $X and Day 2, you have $Y. You can use them to check whether you are getting 5.25% per annum. Suppose you have $10,000. Then the interest for 1 day is dollars is 10000*((1.0525)^(1/365)-1) dollars, which is about $1.4020.

Please let us whether you are getting the correct rate.

Got it. As far as I can tell it accrues daily but is paid monthly (at least that is all I see in Fidelity). I will need to really wait until end of April to figure out the exact return on my new contributions.
Interesting. I can see daily update at TIAA. I guess it is different when Fidelity is doing the vendor...
crefwatch
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by crefwatch »

Owlette, two items:

I think an earlier link in this discussion might be for GRA rates, rather than GSRA, which link is here:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/investment- ... r=47933633

Note that the contents of this link are regularly revised to reflect interest rate changes. So it returns a different sheet almost every month.

Regarding the bizarre situation where Fidelity (as Record-Keeper, apparently) does not provide the depth of information that a native (!) TIAA account does: Another poster on this newsboard has used his own storage space to offer a cache of PDF's of TIAA brochures. I don't want to give a link "into" his Dropbox, so I'll just suggest that you look at the fourth document in my view of his list, "2005 - Calculating TIAA Traditional Earnings".

While it's a perverse situation that you have to do this, the brochure seems to have been designed for skeptics who want to "trust but verify" that TIAA is giving them the right amount of DAILY income. While complex, at least the calculation is laid bare by the brochure! This cache can't be assumed to be forever, so you might look at it sooner, rather than later:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y08d3qbmvisa ... QrZIa?dl=0

If you have a contact at the employer or former employer, I would make a complaint that a product that has daily crediting (as it, in fact does) is not being updated daily by the school's Record Keeper, Fidelity is providing inaccurate information, and should be sanctioned. I don't mean that in a nasty, 1-Star Flame way, just that this is a regulated line of business, and they should not be delaying your information. (It would also be interesting if Fidelity's reply was [I'm making this up, but it's sadly plausible] "TIAA's interface with us does not provide that information!")
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

crefwatch wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:20 am If you have a contact at the employer or former employer, I would make a complaint that a product that has daily crediting (as it, in fact does) is not being updated daily by the school's Record Keeper, Fidelity is providing inaccurate information, and should be sanctioned. I don't mean that in a nasty, 1-Star Flame way, just that this is a regulated line of business, and they should not be delaying your information. (It would also be interesting if Fidelity's reply was [I'm making this up, but it's sadly plausible] "TIAA's interface with us does not provide that information!")
Interesting, I wonder what is the minimum requirement. I am thinking that in the old days prior to internet access, we only get quarterly statements. On the other hand, I assume that they need to provide up-to-date info when one calls even prior to internet.
Topic Author
Owlette678
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by Owlette678 »

crefwatch wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:20 am Owlette, two items:

I think an earlier link in this discussion might be for GRA rates, rather than GSRA, which link is here:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/investment- ... r=47933633

Note that the contents of this link are regularly revised to reflect interest rate changes. So it returns a different sheet almost every month.

Regarding the bizarre situation where Fidelity (as Record-Keeper, apparently) does not provide the depth of information that a native (!) TIAA account does: Another poster on this newsboard has used his own storage space to offer a cache of PDF's of TIAA brochures. I don't want to give a link "into" his Dropbox, so I'll just suggest that you look at the fourth document in my view of his list, "2005 - Calculating TIAA Traditional Earnings".

While it's a perverse situation that you have to do this, the brochure seems to have been designed for skeptics who want to "trust but verify" that TIAA is giving them the right amount of DAILY income. While complex, at least the calculation is laid bare by the brochure! This cache can't be assumed to be forever, so you might look at it sooner, rather than later:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y08d3qbmvisa ... QrZIa?dl=0

If you have a contact at the employer or former employer, I would make a complaint that a product that has daily crediting (as it, in fact does) is not being updated daily by the school's Record Keeper, Fidelity is providing inaccurate information, and should be sanctioned. I don't mean that in a nasty, 1-Star Flame way, just that this is a regulated line of business, and they should not be delaying your information. (It would also be interesting if Fidelity's reply was [I'm making this up, but it's sadly plausible] "TIAA's interface with us does not provide that information!")

This is fabulous content. Thank you! I now have plans for my Saturday
crefwatch
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA
Contact:

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by crefwatch »

student wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:53 am Interesting, I wonder what is the minimum requirement. I am thinking that in the old days prior to internet access, we only get quarterly statements. On the other hand, I assume that they need to provide up-to-date info when one calls even prior to internet.
Of course, I am not a securities lawyer. But for the first 20-25 years, the Unit Values of the CREF Variable Annuities were only set once a month. Read that again! That value was used until the next valuation was done!

Setting aside the issue of rules and regulation, if someone has the ability to SELL something today, their record-keeper should be responsible for telling them what their holding of that asset is WORTH today, don't you think? Would you place a sell order for something you didn't know the actual value of? (Yes, I know that "an open-end mutual fund" is sold at a value you don't know when you place the order! But it's understood that everyone has the same ... restriction. And you have the immediately previous business day's value, at least.)
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by ResearchMed »

crefwatch wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:55 pm
student wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:53 am Interesting, I wonder what is the minimum requirement. I am thinking that in the old days prior to internet access, we only get quarterly statements. On the other hand, I assume that they need to provide up-to-date info when one calls even prior to internet.
Of course, I am not a securities lawyer. But for the first 20-25 years, the Unit Values of the CREF Variable Annuities were only set once a month. Read that again! That value was used until the next valuation was done!

Setting aside the issue of rules and regulation, if someone has the ability to SELL something today, their record-keeper should be responsible for telling them what their holding of that asset is WORTH today, don't you think? Would you place a sell order for something you didn't know the actual value of? (Yes, I know that "an open-end mutual fund" is sold at a value you don't know when you place the order! But it's understood that everyone has the same ... restriction. And you have the immediately previous business day's value, at least.)

Way back then... what choices were actually available? IF (just hypothesizing) the only choices were Trad Ann, and then CREF Stock... how much choice was there in terms of selling?

One could move money from CREF Stock to Trad Ann, but then it was sort of "trapped forever" (not quite, obviously!), given the liquidity restrictions plus the rules that one usually couldn't access the money before retirement (or other separation).

I may be misunderstanding what the "choices" were way back then, but was there much "selling/buying" going on during employment, other than having Employer money contributed, either to just Trad Ann or then to a choice of Trad Ann or CREF Stock, with little chance to change that very much until retirement?

I may be entirely "off" in my understanding of what, say, my parents had as choices back then.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: TIAA (liquid) annuity question

Post by student »

crefwatch wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:55 pm
student wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:53 am Interesting, I wonder what is the minimum requirement. I am thinking that in the old days prior to internet access, we only get quarterly statements. On the other hand, I assume that they need to provide up-to-date info when one calls even prior to internet.
Of course, I am not a securities lawyer. But for the first 20-25 years, the Unit Values of the CREF Variable Annuities were only set once a month. Read that again! That value was used until the next valuation was done!

Setting aside the issue of rules and regulation, if someone has the ability to SELL something today, their record-keeper should be responsible for telling them what their holding of that asset is WORTH today, don't you think? Would you place a sell order for something you didn't know the actual value of? (Yes, I know that "an open-end mutual fund" is sold at a value you don't know when you place the order! But it's understood that everyone has the same ... restriction. And you have the immediately previous business day's value, at least.)
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I certainly think that one is entitled to know. I was just wondering what is the minimum requirement and if the record keeper is simply meeting the minimum, what can one do.
Post Reply