Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

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cockersx3
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by cockersx3 »

Shift4 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:20 am I stumbled on this NPR post just now that seemed relevant: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/11669705 ... erty-sales
National comparisons like this one may be a decent first-pass filter, but they can easily be inaccurate due to quirks in local tax laws that render the comparisons incorrect. For example, when I was a homeowner in NY, in addition to a "property tax" we were subject to an annual "school tax" and a myriad of other one-off assessments that were added to our annual "property tax" bill. These added costs were significant - basically made those annual bills around 2x of the property tax bill by itself - but the national comparisons I would see would only focus on local millage rates for property taxes and so these additional costs were likely not part of the comparison.

It does look like the referenced assessment is incorrect for Maryland. In Maryland, each county has a local income tax of around 3% for nearly all counties in the state, on top of the state income tax of around 4-6% depending on household income. Yet when I look at the referenced data for Maryland , it shows a typical income tax "bite" of around 4%, which is definitely very low. So it looks like they didn't include the local tax.

Again, it may be a good first pass filter - NY and MD are still high tax states, regardless of the details. But it's definitely important to check things out for yourself as they may be off in important ways.
billaster
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by billaster »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Mel Lindauer »

billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:53 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
Don't know where you got your information, but a google search showed that your figures are way off.
How much is Florida's tourism industry worth?

$4.9 billion - Total State Sales Tax Revenue to Tourism (23 percent of taxes collected) 1,145,800 - Number of Floridians Employed in Tourism Related Industry Categories $155.90 - Average Amount Spent by Each Domestic Visitor per Day in Florida
$4.9 BILLION and 23% of taxes collected definitely aren't small potatoes. We Floridians don't have to pay that nearly $5 BILLION paid by the tourists. All contributions are appreciated.

And we have no income tax, no inheritance tax, and no estate tax. How does that compare to CA and NY?
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi
billaster
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by billaster »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:07 pm
billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:53 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
Don't know where you got your information, but a google search showed that your figures are way off.
How much is Florida's tourism industry worth?

$4.9 billion - Total State Sales Tax Revenue to Tourism (23 percent of taxes collected) 1,145,800 - Number of Floridians Employed in Tourism Related Industry Categories $155.90 - Average Amount Spent by Each Domestic Visitor per Day in Florida
$4.9 BILLION and 23% of taxes collected definitely aren't small potatoes.
And once again you have made the same mistake as the last time you made this claim. State taxes are only about one-third of total tax burden in Florida. The highest portion of tax burden in Florida is local property taxes. To ignore that fact is highly misleading, as if property taxes just don't count. So, yes, the 8% number is correct.
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Grogs »

changingtimes wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:35 am
bendix wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:23 pm What an interesting discussion.

Isnt it that Ohio will assume you owe the full amount of taxes, even if you dont live in Ohio all the time, but will grant you a credit for taxes paid in other states, which is useless if that other state is a state that doesnt levy taxes? I tried to research that a while back and that was the impression I closed with. Would be great news if I was wrong!
My understanding as well, with DC. Will have to change my domicile with my employer and officially make Wyoming my state of residence to reap the benefits of working there six months out of the year.
I believe that if your domicile is another state and you live in DC for < 183 days, you owe $0 in DC taxes. I had a co-worker go up there for a long-term assignment and he intentionally waited until about July 10th so that he wouldn't owe any DC tax for the first year. They still withheld it from his paychecks, but he was able to file and get it refunded the following February.
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Mel Lindauer
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Mel Lindauer »

billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:15 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:07 pm
billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:53 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
Don't know where you got your information, but a google search showed that your figures are way off.
How much is Florida's tourism industry worth?

$4.9 billion - Total State Sales Tax Revenue to Tourism (23 percent of taxes collected) 1,145,800 - Number of Floridians Employed in Tourism Related Industry Categories $155.90 - Average Amount Spent by Each Domestic Visitor per Day in Florida
$4.9 BILLION and 23% of taxes collected definitely aren't small potatoes.
And once again you have made the same mistake as the last time you made this claim. State taxes are only about one-third of total tax burden in Florida. The highest portion of tax burden in Florida is local property taxes. To ignore that fact is highly misleading, as if property taxes just don't count. So, yes, the 8% number is correct.
Again, non-residents pay a disproportionate portion of property taxes, too, since full-time residents get to claim the homestead exemption, whereas part-time homeowners/snowbirds don't. Residents with the homestead exemption can only have their property value assessment increased by 3% or the cost of living in any given year, whichever is LOWER. At the same time, non-residents/snowbirds get taxed on the full (and constantly increasing) value of their homes.

And many other states, like CA, make our gas taxes/prices seem like a real bargain.

Life is good for a Florida resident. The only problem is that it may be TOO good since we're getting 1000 new residents a day.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi
billaster
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by billaster »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:42 pm Again, non-residents pay a disproportionate portion of property taxes, too, since full-time residents get to claim the homestead exemption, whereas part-time homeowners/snowbirds don't. Residents with the homestead exemption can only have their property value assessment increased by 3% or the cost of living in any given year, whichever is LOWER. At the same time, non-residents/snowbirds get taxed on the full (and constantly increasing) value of their homes.
Snowbirds make up less than 5% of Florida residents and only a portion of them own property. And that doesn't include commercial property. You think this small number makes a significant impact on total property taxes?
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by joe8d »

cchrissyy wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:38 pm I've never understood moving to save income taxes by the exact people who make so much the taxes can't impact their lifestyle.
Live wherever you like! You can afford it.
:thumbsup Yes, living in a third world state or country just doesn't makes sense.
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protagonist
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by protagonist »

Of course you shouldn't move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes.

If you are asking this question, you probably make enough money to not seriously worry about it.

The only good reason you should move to another state is because you want to live there. Or because you have family or work reasons to want to be there.

If you happen to save on taxes in the process, it's a double win.

Make money. Don't let money make you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1vYzIbYFmo
rossington
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by rossington »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:42 pm Life is good for a Florida resident.

No doubt about it. We are thankful for every day we live in this wonderful state.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
protagonist
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by protagonist »

billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:12 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:42 pm Again, non-residents pay a disproportionate portion of property taxes, too, since full-time residents get to claim the homestead exemption, whereas part-time homeowners/snowbirds don't. Residents with the homestead exemption can only have their property value assessment increased by 3% or the cost of living in any given year, whichever is LOWER. At the same time, non-residents/snowbirds get taxed on the full (and constantly increasing) value of their homes.
Snowbirds make up less than 5% of Florida residents and only a portion of them own property. And that doesn't include commercial property. You think this small number makes a significant impact on total property taxes?
FL ranks 24th in the nation in real estate tax rates....right in the middle of the pack. https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/pr ... s-by-state They predominantly make up for the lack of income tax by having very high sales and excise taxes, which place the highest tax burden on lower income individuals. For that reason, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) ranks Florida 48th in the nation in tax fairness. https://itep.org/whopays/florida/
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by rossington »

protagonist wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:06 pm [FL ranks 24th in the nation in real estate tax rates....right in the middle of the pack. https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/pr ... s-by-state They predominantly make up for the lack of income tax by having very high sales and excise taxes, which place the highest tax burden on lower income individuals. For that reason, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) ranks Florida 48th in the nation in tax fairness. https://itep.org/whopays/florida/
“Americans Are Moving to the Most Tax-Friendly States in the Country”:

https://www.moneygeek.com/financial-pla ... dly-state/
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
chassis
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by chassis »

Kandinsky wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:47 pm I've heard the phrase that goes something like "don't let the tax tail wag the dog" but there is something very appealing about living somewhere with no state or city taxes. There are eight states with no personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida, and Alaska. I could see myself living in any of those places except Wyoming.

My income is $465,000 per year working 100% remote from home so it doesn't matter where I reside for my work. According to some income tax calculators I could expect to save about $25,000 per year in state and local taxes just sitting in another state. The problem is I've grown up in Ohio and my family/friends are here. So the logical/rational side of my brain tries to break it down into whether $2,000 per month in extra taxes is worth living here just to be around people I know. I've even had thoughts of driving 3 hours north up into Canada to take advantage of the foreign earned income credit which would require me to stay outside the U.S. for 330 days but in return I would also forgo being taxed on roughly the first $100K in income at the federal level.

In some ways I love the thought of how liberating it might be to move away and feel more independent. On the other hand, knowing me I'd probably just settle into doing what I always do where I reside currently.

I guess I'm just curious how others have made the decision to leave their hometown? If you're not moving for a job and the place you currently live is decent but maybe not the most exciting, moving for tax purposes probably shouldn't be the main contributor?
There is no free lunch. You will “pay” something whether via higher property or sales taxes, or intangibly by less infrastructure, worse schools, etc. You might accept these tangible financial or intangible non financial costs.

There is no free lunch.
Cat Herder
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Cat Herder »

There may be no free lunch, but there are restaurants that might sell a lunch you like better for a better price.

For instance, if you have hamburger tastes (and budget), you might find a better deal at a dedicated 'burger joint than at a fancy place where everyone's all gussied up and made reservations a month in advance.

Or if you don't spend much of your money beyond essentials and prefer a modest home, a place that gets most of its tax revenue from sales and property taxes might be a better match, all else being equal. Not all taxes affect all people equally, even if the net income to a state or nation is the same.
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Grogs »

chassis wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:48 am
Kandinsky wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:47 pm I've heard the phrase that goes something like "don't let the tax tail wag the dog" but there is something very appealing about living somewhere with no state or city taxes. There are eight states with no personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida, and Alaska. I could see myself living in any of those places except Wyoming.

My income is $465,000 per year working 100% remote from home so it doesn't matter where I reside for my work. According to some income tax calculators I could expect to save about $25,000 per year in state and local taxes just sitting in another state. The problem is I've grown up in Ohio and my family/friends are here. So the logical/rational side of my brain tries to break it down into whether $2,000 per month in extra taxes is worth living here just to be around people I know. I've even had thoughts of driving 3 hours north up into Canada to take advantage of the foreign earned income credit which would require me to stay outside the U.S. for 330 days but in return I would also forgo being taxed on roughly the first $100K in income at the federal level.

In some ways I love the thought of how liberating it might be to move away and feel more independent. On the other hand, knowing me I'd probably just settle into doing what I always do where I reside currently.

I guess I'm just curious how others have made the decision to leave their hometown? If you're not moving for a job and the place you currently live is decent but maybe not the most exciting, moving for tax purposes probably shouldn't be the main contributor?
There is no free lunch. You will “pay” something whether via higher property or sales taxes, or intangibly by less infrastructure, worse schools, etc. You might accept these tangible financial or intangible non financial costs.

There is no free lunch.
You're right in the broadest sense - states have to pay to fix the roads somehow, but there are a lot of ways the money can be spent, or sometimes misspent: underfunded pension mandates, poorly planned public works projects, etc. I would submit that in a low-tax state, politicians know they have to make do with what they have (because trying to raise taxes is the kiss of death) and they make sure they really need something before they commit funds.

The other side of the equation is that where the revenue comes from matters. If you make $465k and only spend 10% of it every year, then a 1% difference in income tax hits a lot harder than a 1% difference in sales tax. A state could be getting a large portion of their funding from things like lottery tickets, alcohol tax, tobacco tax, gas tax, and so on that may have zero or very little effect on you if you don't use them.
Bcdkgf
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Bcdkgf »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:07 pm
billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:53 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
Don't know where you got your information, but a google search showed that your figures are way off.
How much is Florida's tourism industry worth?

$4.9 billion - Total State Sales Tax Revenue to Tourism (23 percent of taxes collected) 1,145,800 - Number of Floridians Employed in Tourism Related Industry Categories $155.90 - Average Amount Spent by Each Domestic Visitor per Day in Florida
$4.9 BILLION and 23% of taxes collected definitely aren't small potatoes. We Floridians don't have to pay that nearly $5 BILLION paid by the tourists. All contributions are appreciated.

And we have no income tax, no inheritance tax, and no estate tax. How does that compare to CA and NY?
Don't forget the snowbirds who own second homes in Florida. In my subdivision, half of the homes are owned by snowbirds who come in the fall and leave before Easter. They pay higher taxes on their homes, and HOA fees of $300 a month even when they don't use the amenities.
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OrangeKiwi
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by OrangeKiwi »

chassis wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:48 am

There is no free lunch. You will “pay” something whether via higher property or sales taxes, or intangibly by less infrastructure, worse schools, etc. You might accept these tangible financial or intangible non financial costs.

There is no free lunch.
Some governments are significant outliers in debt from underfunded retirement benefits for government employees. In these cases, paying for labor from previous years is of no benefit to the taxpayer today, and so there could be an arbitrage opportunity without sacrificing their quality of life, such as infrastructure/schools/etc. Similar to choosing to invest in a business with less debt than a business with more debt.

These reports can give you an idea of how much of an outlier they can be:

https://www.truthinaccounting.org/news/ ... tates-2022

https://www.truthinaccounting.org/news/ ... ities-2023
KarenC
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by KarenC »

OrangeKiwi wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:22 am
Shift4 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:20 am I stumbled on this NPR post just now that seemed relevant: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/11669705 ... erty-sales

Excerpt: "WalletHub, a personal finance website, released a report this week analyzing total tax burden by state. Tax burden is defined as the proportion of a person's income that goes toward taxes."

[…]
This would be more useful if broken down by W-2 income decile, or at least quintile. For example, it shows Washington as having a higher tax liability than Oregon, which, if you are on the upper end of the income scale, cannot be true.


This report might be more useful for the purposes of figuring out potential tax liability on an individual basis.

https://itep.org/whopays-map/
I've also found the What Are the Best States to Retire for Taxes? page on SmartAsset to be useful. You can click down to specific states and put in your values for income, etc. to determine your personal tax burden for that state.
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by smitcat »

chassis wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:48 am
Kandinsky wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:47 pm I've heard the phrase that goes something like "don't let the tax tail wag the dog" but there is something very appealing about living somewhere with no state or city taxes. There are eight states with no personal income tax: Wyoming, Washington, Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, Nevada, Florida, and Alaska. I could see myself living in any of those places except Wyoming.

My income is $465,000 per year working 100% remote from home so it doesn't matter where I reside for my work. According to some income tax calculators I could expect to save about $25,000 per year in state and local taxes just sitting in another state. The problem is I've grown up in Ohio and my family/friends are here. So the logical/rational side of my brain tries to break it down into whether $2,000 per month in extra taxes is worth living here just to be around people I know. I've even had thoughts of driving 3 hours north up into Canada to take advantage of the foreign earned income credit which would require me to stay outside the U.S. for 330 days but in return I would also forgo being taxed on roughly the first $100K in income at the federal level.

In some ways I love the thought of how liberating it might be to move away and feel more independent. On the other hand, knowing me I'd probably just settle into doing what I always do where I reside currently.

I guess I'm just curious how others have made the decision to leave their hometown? If you're not moving for a job and the place you currently live is decent but maybe not the most exciting, moving for tax purposes probably shouldn't be the main contributor?
There is no free lunch. You will “pay” something whether via higher property or sales taxes, or intangibly by less infrastructure, worse schools, etc. You might accept these tangible financial or intangible non financial costs.

There is no free lunch.
You need to check each state as they are all different - here is our example from earlier in this thread...

"That has not been our experience with changing states. Here is a reasonable summary estimate of the changes in expenses for the first full year since we changed states.
Retired/married/own home/equivalent home/same cars/active in both states.

$16,000 income tax
$ 7,000 property tax
$ 3,500 utilities
$ (750) home insurance
$ 0 vehicle insurance
$ 2,250 sales tax
$ 1,000 registration, fees, tolls, ramps, etc
$29,000 difference in spendable dollars in the first year...this will rise a bit more in the second year.
lottadot
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by lottadot »

We relocated from Ohio to Texas; primarily for the weather because of health reasons (warmer, sunnier, arthritis hurts less here).

If you do move, I believe the "trick" is to go as small as you can wrt to your home purchase. If you go big, the property taxes will eat you alive. So much so that it might be cheaper to stay in Ohio and just move to a lower taxed city w/ a lesser schooldistrict (assuming you've no plans to have children).

For us, with the smallest suitable house we could find, we are saving a little less than $10k/yr. It's up to you if the hassle of moving is worth that/year. I'm not sure if it would have been, for us, sans the health issues.
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Mel Lindauer
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Re: Should I move to a state with no income tax to save on taxes?

Post by Mel Lindauer »

Bcdkgf wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:51 am
Mel Lindauer wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:07 pm
billaster wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:53 pm
Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 pm We're lucky (and grateful) here in Florida. The taxes on residents are low because tourists pay such a large part of our taxes.
You often hear this trope but it doesn't really stand up to the facts. Tourism accounts for about 8% of tax revenue in Forida. I guess it boils down to whether you consider 8% to be a significant part.

California has almost 50% more tourism spending than Florida and New York has a bit less than Florida. I don't think you could attribute the overall tax situation in any of those states as due primarily to tourism.
Don't know where you got your information, but a google search showed that your figures are way off.
How much is Florida's tourism industry worth?

$4.9 billion - Total State Sales Tax Revenue to Tourism (23 percent of taxes collected) 1,145,800 - Number of Floridians Employed in Tourism Related Industry Categories $155.90 - Average Amount Spent by Each Domestic Visitor per Day in Florida
$4.9 BILLION and 23% of taxes collected definitely aren't small potatoes. We Floridians don't have to pay that nearly $5 BILLION paid by the tourists. All contributions are appreciated.

And we have no income tax, no inheritance tax, and no estate tax. How does that compare to CA and NY?
Don't forget the snowbirds who own second homes in Florida. In my subdivision, half of the homes are owned by snowbirds who come in the fall and leave before Easter. They pay higher taxes on their homes, and HOA fees of $300 a month even when they don't use the amenities.
So true. In our city, it's estimated that approximately half of the condos are owned by snowbirds who pay higher real estate taxes, as you've stated.

And taxes aren't the only reason why people move to Florida. I hate cold and snow, so the winter weather was another big factor in my decision to move here.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi
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