Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

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mind_boggled
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Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by mind_boggled »

I am having trouble figuring out how to move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity.

Fidelity's wire instructions require putting my Brokerage ID in the For Credit To field in addition to the routing/checking account number. But the Vanguard manual Add a Bank page doesn't have a field to add my brokerage account number.

https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public/060 ... ctions.pdf

The automatic 'link bank' search has no results for Fidelity the brokerage. And above it it says "Chase Bank and certain other banks require you to manually link your account" (Chase is the bank Fidelity uses).

I've seen old posts mention they could link their Fidelity Cash Management Account to Vanguard and 'push' and 'pull' cash but I can't find any way to do this. Have they removed this feature?
livesoft
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by livesoft »

It is not clear if you have a checking account which is what a "bank" means to these places. So transfer cash from Vanguard to your checking account, then transfer from your checking account to Fidelity.
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SnowBog
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by SnowBog »

Check out https://www.fidelity.com/customer-servi ... y-movement

In particular the FAQ "What is Fidelity's routing number for electronic funds transfer (EFT)?"

It explains how to find the routing and account number for your Fidelity account. Which you can use to setup the account as a "checking" account at Vanguard, and then push the funds from Vanguard.
lstone19
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by lstone19 »

I'm not a Vanguard customer or familiar with their system but it sounds like you might be confusing ACH transfers and wire transfers. "Add a bank" type screens and "linking" are typically for ACH transfers. I've never seen a screen or form for a wire transfer that does not include fields like "For the Benefit of" and "For Final Credit to" since that's an integral part of how wires are routed to the proper account.

For Fidelity, check writing for their accounts is handled via UMB (formerly United Missouri Bank or something like that) and that's who is used for ACH transfers. But wires are to a master Fidelity account at Chase (the account number on the Fidelity instruction) and it's then the "For the Benefit of" and "For Final Credit to" that tells Fidelity what to do with the money once it's in their account. As a Fidelity customer, each account you have with them has a unique account number at UMB, But those accounts do not have an account number known to Chase, hence the extra instructions.

One more thing: as you motioned push and pull, ACH can be either push or pull (pulls being similar to depositing a check and subject to reversal for NSF and other reasons). Wires are push only but in theory have higher security.
DavidInMaryland
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by DavidInMaryland »

lstone19 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:19 pm I'm not a Vanguard customer or familiar with their system but it sounds like you might be confusing ACH transfers and wire transfers. "Add a bank" type screens and "linking" are typically for ACH transfers. I've never seen a screen or form for a wire transfer that does not include fields like "For the Benefit of" and "For Final Credit to" since that's an integral part of how wires are routed to the proper account.

For Fidelity, check writing for their accounts is handled via UMB (formerly United Missouri Bank or something like that) and that's who is used for ACH transfers. But wires are to a master Fidelity account at Chase (the account number on the Fidelity instruction) and it's then the "For the Benefit of" and "For Final Credit to" that tells Fidelity what to do with the money once it's in their account. As a Fidelity customer, each account you have with them has a unique account number at UMB, But those accounts do not have an account number known to Chase, hence the extra instructions.

One more thing: as you motioned push and pull, ACH can be either push or pull (pulls being similar to depositing a check and subject to reversal for NSF and other reasons). Wires are push only but in theory have higher security.
I am late to this thread, but once you have a bank account set up, there is a tickbox to choose between ACH and a wire transfer. When sending to an actual checking account that doesn't charge to receive wires (like Capital One's), this makes it possible (and trivially easy) to move funds from Vanguard to the checking account faster than via ACH.

But unfortunately, it doesn't sound like this is compatible with how Fidelity receives wire transfers, although I'm curious whether it just works if you try to send a wire to the UMB account.
rainfallwinterberry
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by rainfallwinterberry »

mind_boggled wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:19 pm I am having trouble figuring out how to move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity.

Fidelity's wire instructions require putting my Brokerage ID in the For Credit To field in addition to the routing/checking account number. But the Vanguard manual Add a Bank page doesn't have a field to add my brokerage account number.

https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public/060 ... ctions.pdf

The automatic 'link bank' search has no results for Fidelity the brokerage. And above it it says "Chase Bank and certain other banks require you to manually link your account" (Chase is the bank Fidelity uses).

I've seen old posts mention they could link their Fidelity Cash Management Account to Vanguard and 'push' and 'pull' cash but I can't find any way to do this. Have they removed this feature?
As others have mentioned, there are two ways to move money (called "rails" in industry jargon): wires and ACH. The bank that processes wires for fidelity is JPM, and UMB does their ACH.

This link https://digital.fidelity.com/ftgw/digit ... formation/ has routing numbers for Fidelity accounts. Just go to Vanguard (or any other financial institution) and add a bank account. When asked, provide the routing number and account number on the page, and select "checking" if asked to select between checking and savings for the account type. All brokerage and cash accounts, banking or not, have these ACH numbers; they're mostly how money moves around in the US domestically.

When you "link" a bank account, you can either "push" money (ACH credit) or "pull" money (ACH debit). For example, if you went to Vanguard's website and added the fidelity routing numbers, you can, on Vanguard's website, send money to your Fidelity account, or pull from said account, but you will not be able to do so from Fidelity's website until you add the accounts there. What's going on behind the scenes is that Vanguard is basically (virtually) writing and then immediately cashing a check with your Fidelity account numbers (it's the same mechanism) if you "pull" funds, and doing the same thing as your employer's direct deposit if you "push".

Wires are more complicated, and I recommend against trying to set them up both because they have a small cost and because there's not much of a benefit to them.
zero_coupon
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by zero_coupon »

lstone19 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:19 pm Wires are push only but in theory have higher security.
In what way do wires have higher security?
DavidInMaryland
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by DavidInMaryland »

rainfallwinterberry wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:22 am [
Wires are more complicated, and I recommend against trying to set them up both because they have a small cost and because there's not much of a benefit to them.
The reason this question is not as crazy as it sounds is that at Vanguard, there is no additional step required to wire to a linked bank account once you have it set up to send an ACH transfer. Vanguard doesn't charge for outgoing wires, so if your bank doesn't charge for incoming wires (many do, but Capital One, or at least Capital One 360, does not), you can just tick the "wire" box and it just works and is a day or so faster.

It sounds like this relies on the routing information being the same for the two, though, which is true in general for banks but may not be true for "fake" bank accounts like Fidelity's.
lstone19
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by lstone19 »

zero_coupon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:02 am
lstone19 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:19 pm Wires are push only but in theory have higher security.
In what way do wires have higher security?
To my knowledge, wires are still pretty much a manual process. If something seems off about a wire, it is likely to be stopped by a sending financial institution. Fidelity's "ACH vs. wire" page says "bank wires are reviewed and verified by employees at both the sending and receiving firms before they’re processed to ensure the sender has the money to complete the transfer, and that the receiving account is available to accept the money." And because it's manual, there have been reports of wires not going out on a timely basis from some of the Internet only financial institutions. But considering that for most real estate transactions, title companies require wire transfers and will not accept ACH transfers, they must consider wires more secure (for some definition of secure).

When we bought our house in January with a large six-figure wire transfer that was above Fidelity's normal limits and could not have been initiated on-line, we brought the request to a B&M Fidelity office where our IDs were checked (I'm told had we not been able to go to a physical office, there were other steps they'd take to verify the request - and believe me, for the amount involved, I am quite glad Fidelity was doing their own work to make sure it was a legitimate request). I suspect their wire transfer department checked what the destination was; that it was a title company they've sent wires to before would be a good sign. If the destination was unknown, they likely would have done more verification.

The only wire transfers I've done have been in connection with real estate closings. They're extra work to set up and because they're manual, some financial institutions charge fees to receive them. I've never been in a situation where an ACH wasn't fast enough.
Last edited by lstone19 on Sun Aug 06, 2023 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Charles Joseph
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by Charles Joseph »

I have my Fidelity CMA set up with Vanguard as a bank account and push money to Fidelity that way simply by selling shares. Works great. No problems.
"The big money is not in the buying and selling, but in the waiting." - Charles Munger
zero_coupon
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by zero_coupon »

lstone19 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:59 pm
zero_coupon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:02 am
lstone19 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:19 pm Wires are push only but in theory have higher security.
In what way do wires have higher security?
To my knowledge, wires are still pretty much a manual process. If something seems off about a wire, it is likely to be stopped by a sending financial institution. Fidelity's "ACH vs. wire" page says "bank wires are reviewed and verified by employees at both the sending and receiving firms before they’re processed to ensure the sender has the money to complete the transfer, and that the receiving account is available to accept the money." And because it's manual, there have been reports of wires not going out on a timely basis from some of the Internet only financial institutions. But considering that for most real estate transactions, title companies require wire transfers and will not accept ACH transfers, they must consider wires more secure (for some definition of secure).

When we bought our house in January with a large six-figure wire transfer that was above Fidelity's normal limits and could not have been initiated on-line, we brought the request to a B&M Fidelity office where our IDs were checked (I'm told had we not been able to go to a physical office, there were other steps they'd take to verify the request - and believe me, for the amount involved, I am quite glad Fidelity was doing there own work to make sure it was a legitimate request). I suspect their wire transfer department checked what the destination was; that it was a title company they've sent wires to before would be a good sign. If the destination was unknown, they likely would have done more verification.

The only wire transfers I've done have been in connection with real estate closings. They're extra work to set up and because they're manual, some financial institutions charge fees to receive them. I've never been in a situation where an ACH wasn't fast enough.
Thanks. Is it therefore not advisable to use ACH for large transactions, even when it's possible to do so?
rainfallwinterberry
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by rainfallwinterberry »

zero_coupon wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:21 am Thanks. Is it therefore not advisable to use ACH for large transactions, even when it's possible to do so?
Eh, depends on the purpose of the transaction I guess. The reason institutions prefer wires for big deals is because there's a greater degree of finality to them -- with ACH, what happens is that if you "pull" money, the bank receives no confirmation that it worked, so the only way they know with a degree of certainty that the money came through is that they don't receive a reject message within 5 days. That's why some banks place a hold for 5 days when you cash a check. Some place the hold for longer because ACH transactions can be clawed back quite easily within a longer time window.

To "clawback" wires is a much more complicated process and incredibly hard (unlike what some may claim, it's absolutely possible to reverse wires, it's just hard and unlikely to happen), so if you receive a wire you can be almost certain that it's yours to keep.

So if you're buying a house, get that money wired, but if you're just shuffling money around your own accounts it doesn't really matter imo. But definitely prefer ACH credits to debits, credits are much easier for everybody to deal with. They're typically faster (because your bank is not waiting 5 days behind the scenes to see if a deny comes through) and easier to work with.
zero_coupon
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by zero_coupon »

rainfallwinterberry wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:31 pm
zero_coupon wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:21 am Thanks. Is it therefore not advisable to use ACH for large transactions, even when it's possible to do so?
Eh, depends on the purpose of the transaction I guess. The reason institutions prefer wires for big deals is because there's a greater degree of finality to them -- with ACH, what happens is that if you "pull" money, the bank receives no confirmation that it worked, so the only way they know with a degree of certainty that the money came through is that they don't receive a reject message within 5 days. That's why some banks place a hold for 5 days when you cash a check. Some place the hold for longer because ACH transactions can be clawed back quite easily within a longer time window.

To "clawback" wires is a much more complicated process and incredibly hard (unlike what some may claim, it's absolutely possible to reverse wires, it's just hard and unlikely to happen), so if you receive a wire you can be almost certain that it's yours to keep.

So if you're buying a house, get that money wired, but if you're just shuffling money around your own accounts it doesn't really matter imo. But definitely prefer ACH credits to debits, credits are much easier for everybody to deal with. They're typically faster (because your bank is not waiting 5 days behind the scenes to see if a deny comes through) and easier to work with.
Thanks for your insight.
thatskirst
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by thatskirst »

Charles Joseph wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:42 pm I have my Fidelity CMA set up with Vanguard as a bank account and push money to Fidelity that way simply by selling shares. Works great. No problems.
How were you able to do that? I tried to link Vanguard as a bank account via Plaid, but it keeps saying they couldn’t find an eligible account.
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Charles Joseph
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Re: Move cash from Vanguard to Fidelity

Post by Charles Joseph »

thatskirst wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 6:37 pm
Charles Joseph wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:42 pm I have my Fidelity CMA set up with Vanguard as a bank account and push money to Fidelity that way simply by selling shares. Works great. No problems.
How were you able to do that? I tried to link Vanguard as a bank account via Plaid, but it keeps saying they couldn’t find an eligible account.
I think I said that really awkwardly. Lemme try again!

At Vanguard, I have my Fidelity CMA linked as a bank account. So I can sell Vanguard funds and have the money sent directly to my Fidelity cash management account. I just used the Fidelity CMA routing number and account number to set it up.
"The big money is not in the buying and selling, but in the waiting." - Charles Munger
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