Do I have to get a hybrid?

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cmr79
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by cmr79 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:38 am
snackdog wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:10 am
Lexus has been selling the RX hybrids since 2004. They are extremely smooth and reliable.

Hybrids barely account for 10% of the US market (as of Feb 2023). So nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Hybrids are the best of both worlds and the worst. You can be ICE or electric during this transition to more charging stations for road trips. If you don't need to take long road trips in this car, you can skip the ICE and go EV. EV is infinitely simpler. Hybrid is least simple as you have two drive trains to manage and maintain.

If you want cutting edge, get a Hydrogen car. Sales are inching up.
The incoming Toyota CEO, Sato has changed course with Toyota. They had started to head towards EVs with their Bx4wxyz, which is co-branded with the Subaru Solterra. He's said that Toyota is done developing EVs as that's the wrong way to go. They are focusing on hydrogen for "clean" powered fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R44denxWmzE&t=210s
This video you linked to says exactly the opposite of that--that Toyota/Lexus intends to continue to independently produ e new BEV models, but that they view the future of green transportation to require multiple types of vehicles and also intend to build out a hydrogen fueling network in certain regions and remain committed to this technology.
stoptothink
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by stoptothink »

teCh0010 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:53 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:00 am
lgb wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:53 am This is an interesting thread for sure!

I have 'zero' experience with a hybrid, but I must say the narrative about how their batteries will be needing replacement and it's sooo expensive, blah blah, certainly is the rumor mill I heard. I just assumed it must work out to be about the same in the end as far as maintenance/ongoing costs, or that they could at least say it will be or be better in order to be able to sell them at a Dealer.

However after reading the above posts of seemingly actual users, It did seem that having a much longer gap of thinking about if my 4 cars would need a gas fill-up, or not have to think about my battery actually needing replacement for 10+ to 20 years vs. the constant worry of when any of my 4 cars batteries will magically die, and how those will need more frequent replacement. As well as whoever said they are on the same set of brake pads for several years or 145K miles.... which is another constant maintenance item, along with I presume oil changes, but those even seem further gap between needing 3,500 or 7,500 for ICE engine cars or 10,000 for Hybrids... The things I mention are the things I seem to only have problems with in my ICE cars that are all circa 2012 to 2014 era

I'm on 'paper' becoming a convert and warming up to the idea, not fond of the 'change'/feeling forced - but stuff certainly changes over time and I've seemingly survived. However, the low water flow toilet and minimal water use washer/dishwasher appliances trying to use a ~gallon of water (joking) to accomplish the task are still annoying.. :sharebeer
Ford still recommends changing the oil in our Ford Maverick hybrid every 3,000 miles :oops: Considering nearly half our miles are electric only, I feel just fine stretching that interval to 10,000+. I'd place a heavy bet that we never replace the battery or the brake pads as long as we own this truck.

Considering how long hybrids have been around now and how much data we have about reliability and maintenance, I'm kind of surprised that these myths still persist.
The Maverick has an intelligent oil life monitoring system that will tell you when to change the oil. During normal use it will probably be around 5000 - 7500 miles. It keeps track of cold starts, warm starts, trip length, etc to calculate when you should change it.

Ford only recommends 3000 miles for severe duty, which would be something like a taxi in a hot climate.
Wasn't aware of this. We're at ~6k miles and nothing yet.
cmr79
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by cmr79 »

Another link regarding Toyota developing new BEV platforms:
https://www.autonews.com/commentary/inc ... v-platform

This being said, I think Akio Toyoda will likely be borne out as partially correct--I think we will see a lot of hybrid vehicles sold throughout the 2030s and a lot of ICE vehicles remaining on the road through the 2040s and 2050s. Change takes time, and a lot of car manufacturers making promises about not selling ICE vehicles by 2030 and states/countries banning ICE sales after 2035 will likely either walk these commitments back entirely or at the least add tons of caveats. Maybe there will be increasing gas/diesel taxes that effectively phase ICE vehicle use out or fuel economy requirements that essentially force all ICE vehicles to utilize hybrid powertrains, and maybe some states/countries will navigate this transition more rapidly and effectively than others. I think "majority" vs "all" electric vehicle sales in the 2030s would be a much more realistic target.
eigenperson
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by eigenperson »

My father had a Prius. He had to replace the battery after something like 200K miles/15 years. It cost something like $2000. This was also the only major repair that had to be done on the car, ever. In a sense, the battery sacrifices itself to protect the engine, which by 200,000 miles has done significantly less work than in an ICE-only car. (I guess you also use other things less, like the brake pads, because of regenerative braking. But those are cheap.)

That said, the classic Prius very rarely deeply discharges its battery. The experience with a plug-in, where you use the battery a lot more intensively, might be different. On the other hand, newer batteries are hopefully better than the old NiMH ones.
teCh0010
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by teCh0010 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:31 am
teCh0010 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:53 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:00 am
lgb wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:53 am This is an interesting thread for sure!

I have 'zero' experience with a hybrid, but I must say the narrative about how their batteries will be needing replacement and it's sooo expensive, blah blah, certainly is the rumor mill I heard. I just assumed it must work out to be about the same in the end as far as maintenance/ongoing costs, or that they could at least say it will be or be better in order to be able to sell them at a Dealer.

However after reading the above posts of seemingly actual users, It did seem that having a much longer gap of thinking about if my 4 cars would need a gas fill-up, or not have to think about my battery actually needing replacement for 10+ to 20 years vs. the constant worry of when any of my 4 cars batteries will magically die, and how those will need more frequent replacement. As well as whoever said they are on the same set of brake pads for several years or 145K miles.... which is another constant maintenance item, along with I presume oil changes, but those even seem further gap between needing 3,500 or 7,500 for ICE engine cars or 10,000 for Hybrids... The things I mention are the things I seem to only have problems with in my ICE cars that are all circa 2012 to 2014 era

I'm on 'paper' becoming a convert and warming up to the idea, not fond of the 'change'/feeling forced - but stuff certainly changes over time and I've seemingly survived. However, the low water flow toilet and minimal water use washer/dishwasher appliances trying to use a ~gallon of water (joking) to accomplish the task are still annoying.. :sharebeer
Ford still recommends changing the oil in our Ford Maverick hybrid every 3,000 miles :oops: Considering nearly half our miles are electric only, I feel just fine stretching that interval to 10,000+. I'd place a heavy bet that we never replace the battery or the brake pads as long as we own this truck.

Considering how long hybrids have been around now and how much data we have about reliability and maintenance, I'm kind of surprised that these myths still persist.
The Maverick has an intelligent oil life monitoring system that will tell you when to change the oil. During normal use it will probably be around 5000 - 7500 miles. It keeps track of cold starts, warm starts, trip length, etc to calculate when you should change it.

Ford only recommends 3000 miles for severe duty, which would be something like a taxi in a hot climate.
Wasn't aware of this. We're at ~6k miles and nothing yet.
This video shows where to check the percentage of oil life and reset once changed.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=NkADTWg1Wx0 ... IECMiOmarE
ItzaHoot
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by ItzaHoot »

We initially leased a prius several years ago and contemplated buying out the lease but the dealership apparently thought it was gold or something since they wanted only about $1000 less for the 3 year old lease versus buying a brand new one. So, in 2015, we turned in the 3 year old car at the end of the lease and bought a new prius. The 2015 prius is still going strong with only scheduled maintenance. Eight years and getting almost 50 mpg combined for mostly city and some long distance driving.

The answer to the specific question is that you can buy and car you can afford, whether ICE, Hybrid, or EV. For me the answer is, we'll almost certainly buy another hybrid when we finally replace our 2015 prius and currently, if it was tomorrow, it would be a CRV since (in our opinion) it is a more comfortable ride.
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LilyFleur
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by LilyFleur »

I love my 2019 Honda Accord hybrid, bought new, pre-Covid. It's the touring model with all the bells and whistles. I think I finally hit 20,000 miles on it. I drive it mostly on short jaunts around town. (Covid made a hermit out of me.) I think I fill it up every month or month and a half. It gets around 36 or 37 mpg in town.

California has a lot of infrastructure work to do before going completely EV. I live in a condo and we don't currently have the ability to install the faster charger in our garages (it's communal billing for garage electricity), and every resident in our complex also has an outdoor assigned parking space that many people park in every day. The HOA is going to install two chargers in dedicated parking spaces that are the fast kind, but scheduling time on it and then making sure to move my car out of it isn't something I would want to manage at this time. It's much easier in a single family home, but California has a large population living in apartments and condos.
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rob
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by rob »

Hybrid's are a transitional abomination... Terrible to drive and worst of both tech with both bits of pluming.

Picking electric or ICE is rational in my view, not both. Right now, electric is still more expensive and in my view (this will get screamed down) worse for the environment on a total basis - although allows the drivers to pretend they are "part of the solution". Big 4x4's that are popular in the US are worse than reasonable sized or smaller cars regardless of drive tech.
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furiouschads
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by furiouschads »

I recently bought a new car so I have been lurking in the car salesmen forums. They said that there was much more demand for hybrids than traditional gas cars. That was surprising but it was said repeatedly by different people.

I went on this journey myself over the last several years. I got a Volt because battery-only was scary. Then I got an e-Golf because all we needed was a commuter and grocery getter. I liked the simplicity of one system instead of two, and also, the fundamentally simpler electric technology.

Then our daughter moved out of state so now we needed to do road trips. We now have an Ioniq 5. We expect to be our long-term vehicle. Once we experienced electric driving, we did not want to go back to gas. Quiet, powerful, fast. Fill up the car in the driveway.
Last edited by furiouschads on Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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exigent
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by exigent »

Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
cmr79
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by cmr79 »

rob wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:13 pm Hybrid's are a transitional abomination... Terrible to drive and worst of both tech with both bits of pluming.

Picking electric or ICE is rational in my view, not both. Right now, electric is still more expensive and in my view (this will get screamed down) worse for the environment on a total basis - although allows the drivers to pretend they are "part of the solution". Big 4x4's that are popular in the US are worse than reasonable sized or smaller cars regardless of drive tech.
Rather than me giving counterpoints, as much as it is tempting, it may be far more interesting (and actionable to OP) to hear why you hold these views.
cmr79
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by cmr79 »

exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
We consistently get under EPA rating for "city" driving for our around town driving with ICE only vehicles, likely because we have a lot of hills and stop signs. Having regenerative braking is a huge advantage in areas like this because you can recapture rather some of the downhill energy. I really loathe riding the brake going downhill on a regular ICE now...it feels like being wasteful.
teniralc
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by teniralc »

augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm Hi,

I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.

Help! Is hybrid the "boglehead" way to go now? I really try to avoid buying the latest tech or fads and haven't bought a car in 20 years so I'm out of the loop. My next purchase is going to be replacing my home rotary phone with a cell phone!! :happy
For me, my criteria changed in that safety, the older I get, became more important. This resulted in me not keeping cars more than about 7 or 8 years instead of striving towards the 15 to 20 year mark. The number of innovative safety improvements have accelerated in the past 5 years or so. Therefore, for me, yes on the hybrid, but more importantly, the decision to not keep the car too long has now superseded the savings I am seeking in fuel.
GibsonL6s
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by GibsonL6s »

I have a Prius and a Tesla 3. I bought the Prius to fit a specific purpose, long road trips and the ability to fit lots of stuff in it due to my kid going to college 5 hours away. The car is economical and practical and pretty boring. Now that I have the Tesla, there is not comparison as far as fun to drive if that is a thing for you.

The question is what are your needs and budget. I personally like having a gas car with a long range, as even though the Tesla charging network is great, charging still take a lot of time and adds significantly to the length of long trips. If I was picking a car for commuting, the idea of never having to stop for gas and charging at home is a huge plus to me.
danaht
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by danaht »

greg24 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:52 pm Hybrid drivetrains have shown to be lower impact on the vehicles than they initially projected, so the battery replacement rates are much lower than anticipated. I have known a lot of Prius owners and none of them have ever replaced the battery.

We own a 13 year old Prius and have never replaced the battery, nor have we had any issues with it. We still get 46-50 mpg in it, depending on the time of year.
The older Prius batteries were NiMH. The newer Prius batteries are Lithium-ion. We don't know exactly how long the newer batteries will last. We are entering a new chapter for the Toyota Prius. I want to buy one of the new Prius models - but I am hoping to get 3 more years from my cheap 2016 Chevy Spark before I do that. In 3 years they will have better data on the new Prius batteries and it might be easier to get one in 3 years.
Valuethinker
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Valuethinker »

augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm Hi,

I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.

Help! Is hybrid the "boglehead" way to go now? I really try to avoid buying the latest tech or fads and haven't bought a car in 20 years so I'm out of the loop. My next purchase is going to be replacing my home rotary phone with a cell phone!! :happy
Yes you should buy a hybrid.

The reasoning being that California is not going to get any easier on fuel economy nor air pollution. That's clear.

It's amusing to someone who grew up in Canada to talk about 20 year car lives ;-). Even these days, they don't survive the road salt that well.

Battery life? For a hybrid car it's just not a huge expense. Shrug. You replace the battery. If you have a 10 year old car & you spend a few thousand keeping it on the road-- that's totally normal, right?

Your main problem will be getting one. Honda and Toyota are short of cars.
Leesbro63
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Leesbro63 »

cmr79 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:39 pm
exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
We consistently get under EPA rating for "city" driving for our around town driving with ICE only vehicles, likely because we have a lot of hills and stop signs. Having regenerative braking is a huge advantage in areas like this because you can recapture rather some of the downhill energy. I really loathe riding the brake going downhill on a regular ICE now...it feels like being wasteful.
I’ve lived in Pittsburgh all of my 63 year life and have been driving for 47 years. Have always gone through brake pads (and before that drum shoes) every 12-15,000 miles. I was in my 30’s before I realized that in most other places, brakes last 3x that. I recently bought a 2023 Lexus RX 350h hybrid. Besides getting 32MPGs, almost double the city MPGs as my old 2020 Lexus RX, the lack of brake dust is astounding. And you can feel the regenerative braking. Based on this, I expect frequent brake pad replacement will be a thing of the past. (Unfortunately tires, especially the OEM tires, only last 18-20K miles. Maybe the next tech breakthrough will be tires.)

Edit: As to as earlier comment about the new Priuses using lithium ion batteries now and no longer NIMH, I thought I heard that my Lexus has NIMH. This article confirms that. Not sure if this applies to Prius as well:

https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2022/09/202 ... rst-drive/
onourway
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by onourway »

danaht wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:25 pm The older Prius batteries were NiMH. The newer Prius batteries are Lithium-ion. We don't know exactly how long the newer batteries will last. We are entering a new chapter for the Toyota Prius. I want to buy one of the new Prius models - but I am hoping to get 3 more years from my cheap 2016 Chevy Spark before I do that. In 3 years they will have better data on the new Prius batteries and it might be easier to get one in 3 years.
The plug-in hybrid versions of the Prius have been using lithium-ion batteries for a decade.
Valuethinker
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Valuethinker »

runner9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:17 am
augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm
I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.
How interesting. Here in Ohio my wife wants a Rav4, preferably a plug in. Dealers currently say for a plug in they'll put you on a list, they get 1-2 every once in a while. For a hybrid you can order and it will be 8-10 months. (last summer they told us 6-8 months and we passed) Maybe we should look elsewhere in the US.
Similar sorts of waiting periods for RAV4s in Ontario. They appear to go for 20% over list price? (If you want one right now).

PHEV I probably would not bother although one could view the list as "option value".
Valuethinker
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Valuethinker »

cmr79 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:18 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:38 am
snackdog wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:10 am
Lexus has been selling the RX hybrids since 2004. They are extremely smooth and reliable.

Hybrids barely account for 10% of the US market (as of Feb 2023). So nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Hybrids are the best of both worlds and the worst. You can be ICE or electric during this transition to more charging stations for road trips. If you don't need to take long road trips in this car, you can skip the ICE and go EV. EV is infinitely simpler. Hybrid is least simple as you have two drive trains to manage and maintain.

If you want cutting edge, get a Hydrogen car. Sales are inching up.
The incoming Toyota CEO, Sato has changed course with Toyota. They had started to head towards EVs with their Bx4wxyz, which is co-branded with the Subaru Solterra. He's said that Toyota is done developing EVs as that's the wrong way to go. They are focusing on hydrogen for "clean" powered fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R44denxWmzE&t=210s
This video you linked to says exactly the opposite of that--that Toyota/Lexus intends to continue to independently produ e new BEV models, but that they view the future of green transportation to require multiple types of vehicles and also intend to build out a hydrogen fueling network in certain regions and remain committed to this technology.
The problem with hydrogen is the thermodynamics.

You have to make the hydrogen. Right now that is done in a very "ungreen" way by reforming natural gas. Then you have to transport the hydrogen.

I am not sure what the conversion efficiency of a hydrogen fuel cell is, but a Battery EV is c 80%. And that electricity can come from totally renewable sources. The demand (at the moment) for expensive metals in a fuel cell is greater than in a battery pack.

So hydrogen you spend more energy to get less energy out in terms of motive power. That's a very hard thermodynamic uphill curve to overcome.

It seems FCVs have greater potential as heavy load movers such as construction machinery or heavy trucks.

Over time we may reach the point where all hydrogen is "green". But electrolysis is a very inefficient way to make hydrogen (but you can do it at times when there is surplus renewable electricity). So successful hydrogen will really coincide with very high penetration of renewables.
Greentree
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Greentree »

Hybrids by companies that manufacture a quality car have proven to be more reliable than non-hybrids. Toyotas for instance, use an Atkinson cycle engine, which has very low compression. They are able to do this because the hybrid system provides low end torque. Low compression engines like the old Volvo 240, tend to last a long time. They are under reduced stress.

Toyota also manages the charge on the small battery well. They keep it well within the ranges of charge that make the battery last a long time with many more cycles than would be possible charging a battery to 100% and then back down to 0%.
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rob
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by rob »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:33 am You have to make the hydrogen. Right now that is done in a very "ungreen" way by reforming natural gas. Then you have to transport the hydrogen.
"ungreen" describes most people's electric also... and more so when more cars are dumped on a grid that can barely get thru summer without pleads to curb AC use in some places. That's even before you get to the manufacturing processes. I wish there was a real conversation but it's been taken over by electric is angelic and ICE is the devilish stuff.
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eddot98
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by eddot98 »

exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
When hybrids were first were introduced, I had read that they were not very well suited to a driver who mostly would use them for long distance driving. Because of where we live, a lot of our driving is on Interstate highways. Even if we are taking a short trip, it is 15 to 20 miles on non-congested roads . In all of our driving our 2016 Lexus es350 with the V6 gets 27+ mpg and our 2012 Camry LE 4 cylinder gets 31 mpg.
Years ago I made the decision that buying a hybrid would not be a good decision for us. Do I need to rethink that decision? We don’t care for the Prius look, so if we would get a hybrid it would either be a Camry or Lexus 300h.
Valuethinker
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Valuethinker »

rob wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:47 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:33 am You have to make the hydrogen. Right now that is done in a very "ungreen" way by reforming natural gas. Then you have to transport the hydrogen.
"ungreen" describes most people's electric also... and more so when more cars are dumped on a grid that can barely get thru summer without pleads to curb AC use in some places. That's even before you get to the manufacturing processes. I wish there was a real conversation but it's been taken over by electric is angelic and ICE is the devilish stuff.
You've tried to confuse a discussion about Hydrogen v EVs with references to EV v ICE debates.

My point was not about that. It was about the problems of getting a genuinely clean hydrogen energy system & energy efficiencies v EVs.
grid that can barely get thru summer
This depends on Time of Day? Discussions about grids that don't include a time variable are not particularly meaningful. Depending on how you make the hydrogen, it does not help your grid (if, for example, hydrogen were made locally or on site rather than at some big central facility & distributed by pipes).
"ungreen" describes most people's electric also
Estimates by US National Renewable Energy Lab suggest less than half the lifecycle emissions of an ICE car. I think that one is if you live in West Virginia (almost 100% coal fired electricity). If you live in the Pacific NW the lifecycle emissions are dramatically lower.

"Most peoples" -- well 25% of US electricity is from coal (it was actually closer to 20% but it has ticked up with higher natural gas prices). Varies a lot by where. Gas fired generation is another 40-45% or so. That's not super green, but it is greener than hydrogen reformation from methane.
That's even before you get to the manufacturing processes. I wish there was a real conversation
If you search it out, there is. For example the AEA Ricardo work (leading automotive consultancy) although that is old now. But there have been hundreds of citations here and in other places.

It won't surprise you to learn that academics have batted this one back and forth a *lot*. See Google Scholar. Or the IPCC Reports on abatement.
Leesbro63
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Leesbro63 »

eddot98 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:16 am
exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
When hybrids were first were introduced, I had read that they were not very well suited to a driver who mostly would use them for long distance driving. Because of where we live, a lot of our driving is on Interstate highways. Even if we are taking a short trip, it is 15 to 20 miles on non-congested roads . In all of our driving our 2016 Lexus es350 with the V6 gets 27+ mpg and our 2012 Camry LE 4 cylinder gets 31 mpg.
Years ago I made the decision that buying a hybrid would not be a good decision for us. Do I need to rethink that decision? We don’t care for the Prius look, so if we would get a hybrid it would either be a Camry or Lexus 300h.
Like you, I would never have considered a hybrid and drive a Lexus. Toyota is now at the point where the hybrid, at least with the RX350h, has the same sticker price as the non-hybrid. Although in the real world, the hybrids are selling for more, but we're in a temporary seller's market. My point is that you should carefully price out whatever Toyota/Lexus produce you are considering in both hybrid and non and not assume that your old equation still applies. I am amazed that my 4000plus pound new RX350h is getting 32MPG around Pittsburgh where my 2020RX got 17. Almost double. I don't keep a car forever, but the 13 year old, never had a repair Prius next to me in my condo garage suggests that longevity is no longer an issue.
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
mrb09
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by mrb09 »

eddot98 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:16 am
exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
When hybrids were first were introduced, I had read that they were not very well suited to a driver who mostly would use them for long distance driving. Because of where we live, a lot of our driving is on Interstate highways. Even if we are taking a short trip, it is 15 to 20 miles on non-congested roads . In all of our driving our 2016 Lexus es350 with the V6 gets 27+ mpg and our 2012 Camry LE 4 cylinder gets 31 mpg.
Years ago I made the decision that buying a hybrid would not be a good decision for us. Do I need to rethink that decision? We don’t care for the Prius look, so if we would get a hybrid it would either be a Camry or Lexus 300h.
Note that most Hybrids use an Atkinson cycle engine which makes them more efficient at speed than the older Otto cycle engine. The downside is lack of torque for off the line acceleration, which is where the hybrid motor comes in. I think that's the rational for a "mild hybrid", if you can get an Atkinson cycle engine and a battery/motor big enough for most starts, that's a win for long distance driving.
sandan
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by sandan »

Ironically, within the last year I've realized that my next car will have to be a hybrid.

All the reliable econocars with naturally aspirated engines and manual transmissions are being axed. I think the manufacturers known that people like me are willing to switch if the TCO stays low.
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tadamsmar
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by tadamsmar »

augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm Hi,

I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.

Help! Is hybrid the "boglehead" way to go now? I really try to avoid buying the latest tech or fads and haven't bought a car in 20 years so I'm out of the loop. My next purchase is going to be replacing my home rotary phone with a cell phone!! :happy
Good value is the Boglehead way I think. I have heard that hybrids or EVs are good values if you drive a lot, but I have never done an analysis.
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by eddot98 »

mrb09 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:39 am
eddot98 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:16 am
exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
When hybrids were first were introduced, I had read that they were not very well suited to a driver who mostly would use them for long distance driving. Because of where we live, a lot of our driving is on Interstate highways. Even if we are taking a short trip, it is 15 to 20 miles on non-congested roads . In all of our driving our 2016 Lexus es350 with the V6 gets 27+ mpg and our 2012 Camry LE 4 cylinder gets 31 mpg.
Years ago I made the decision that buying a hybrid would not be a good decision for us. Do I need to rethink that decision? We don’t care for the Prius look, so if we would get a hybrid it would either be a Camry or Lexus 300h.
Note that most Hybrids use an Atkinson cycle engine which makes them more efficient at speed than the older Otto cycle engine. The downside is lack of torque for off the line acceleration, which is where the hybrid motor comes in. I think that's the rational for a "mild hybrid", if you can get an Atkinson cycle engine and a battery/motor big enough for most starts, that's a win for long distance driving.
That’s a very informative response. Thank you.
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tadamsmar
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by tadamsmar »

teniralc wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:57 pm
augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm Hi,

I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.

Help! Is hybrid the "boglehead" way to go now? I really try to avoid buying the latest tech or fads and haven't bought a car in 20 years so I'm out of the loop. My next purchase is going to be replacing my home rotary phone with a cell phone!! :happy
For me, my criteria changed in that safety, the older I get, became more important. This resulted in me not keeping cars more than about 7 or 8 years instead of striving towards the 15 to 20 year mark. The number of innovative safety improvements have accelerated in the past 5 years or so. Therefore, for me, yes on the hybrid, but more importantly, the decision to not keep the car too long has now superseded the savings I am seeking in fuel.
You may have a wrongheaded view of safety. I am not sure that any safety feature since ESC is actually important or that they even measure out as a feature that improves safety. ESC was mandated in 2012.

Curb weight is actually an important safety feature. It is, of course, a competitive one. It makes you safer, not the other people on the road.

Do you think ABS is a safety feature? It pretty much never worked out as a safety feature before 2012 even with decades of highway data, it was unsafe by some measurements. It was eventually mandated indirectly because it is a base feature of ESC.
stoptothink
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by stoptothink »

eddot98 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:54 am
mrb09 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:39 am
eddot98 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:16 am
exigent wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm
Stinky wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:46 pm I don’t know if hybrid is the “Boglehead” way to buy a car.

But i have had a 2020 RAV4 hybrid for over 3 years now, and I just love it. Toyota has a lot of experience with hybrids going back to the original Prius, and it shows in this car. We’re averaging 33 mpg in almost exclusively in town driving.
I've been getting 31+ with a non-Hybrid 2021 CR-V. Just another data point, but... Hybrids have the biggest advantage in city driving, which is your primary style. I'm surprised you're not getting more than 33 mpg, but I'm not sure what the EPA ratings are for a RAV4 hybrid, so I'm not 100% sure what to expect.

Edit: Just looked it up, EPA ratings on a 2020 RAV4 hybrid are 41 city, 38 hwy. So yeah, I'm surprised your real-world experience is as low as it is.
When hybrids were first were introduced, I had read that they were not very well suited to a driver who mostly would use them for long distance driving. Because of where we live, a lot of our driving is on Interstate highways. Even if we are taking a short trip, it is 15 to 20 miles on non-congested roads . In all of our driving our 2016 Lexus es350 with the V6 gets 27+ mpg and our 2012 Camry LE 4 cylinder gets 31 mpg.
Years ago I made the decision that buying a hybrid would not be a good decision for us. Do I need to rethink that decision? We don’t care for the Prius look, so if we would get a hybrid it would either be a Camry or Lexus 300h.
Note that most Hybrids use an Atkinson cycle engine which makes them more efficient at speed than the older Otto cycle engine. The downside is lack of torque for off the line acceleration, which is where the hybrid motor comes in. I think that's the rational for a "mild hybrid", if you can get an Atkinson cycle engine and a battery/motor big enough for most starts, that's a win for long distance driving.
That’s a very informative response. Thank you.
Certainly the benefit of a hybrid diminishes if you are doing a lot of long distance and high speed driving, but generally they still beat ICE vehicles by a significant margin due to the Atkinson cycle engines. Also, depending on your driving habits, it's possible to get really good highway efficiency with hybrids because of the CVT and the possibility of going full electric in some situations. Our hybrid is rated for 33 on the highway, but we very rarely are getting <40 on longer highway drives and often much higher.
fireman
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by fireman »

I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present.

Take the 2023 RAV4 LE (base RAV4) as an example: the ICE version gets 27/35 mpg for $27,975; the hybrid version gets 41/38 at $30,725 (difference of $2,750). To make the math easier, let's assume hybrid gets 40 mpg and ICE gets 29 mpg (this assumes more city driving, which is to the benefit of the hybrid). If someone drives this car 12K miles per year, the fuel savings is 114 gallons. At $4/gallon (gas is currently $3.20 where I am), yearly savings is $456 in fuel. It would take 6 years to break even in nominal dollars and a few more (8-10?) than that in real dollars. Of course, if you drive many more miles and/or gas prices go higher than $4/g, then the hybrid looks better, but the ICE looks better if you drive less and/or gas prices stay below $4/g.

Genuinely curious - what am I missing?

Also, I tend to think that the majority of fuel economy gains are related to the weight of the vehicle (looking at you Toyota Prius). A friend had a Chevy Sprint in the late 80s. Crazy good gas mileage - close to 50 mpg. Thank goodness we were never in a collision though.
stoptothink
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by stoptothink »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present.

Take the 2023 RAV4 LE (base RAV4) as an example: the ICE version gets 27/35 mpg for $27,975; the hybrid version gets 41/38 at $30,725 (difference of $2,750). To make the math easier, let's assume hybrid gets 40 mpg and ICE gets 29 mpg (this assumes more city driving, which is to the benefit of the hybrid). If someone drives this car 12K miles per year, the fuel savings is 114 gallons. At $4/gallon (gas is currently $3.20 where I am), yearly savings is $456 in fuel. It would take 6 years to break even in nominal dollars and a few more (8-10?) than that in real dollars. Of course, if you drive many more miles and/or gas prices go higher than $4/g, then the hybrid looks better, but the ICE looks better if you drive less and/or gas prices stay below $4/g.

Genuinely curious - what am I missing?

Also, I tend to think that the majority of fuel economy gains are related to the weight of the vehicle (looking at you Toyota Prius). A friend had a Chevy Sprint in the late 80s. Crazy good gas mileage - close to 50 mpg. Thank goodness we were never in a collision though.
You are missing that in some cases the delta in price between ICE and hybrid is smaller, difference in fuel efficiency is larger, and expected maintenance maybe lower in the hybrid. All of those are the case for my (hybrid) vehicle.
hudson
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by hudson »

augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:39 pm Hi,

I did a search on this in the forums and couldn't find anything bout this topic. Looking to replace my 20 year old vehicle with 250K miles on it and the dealers have a lot more hybrid selection than straight gas. This is in CA. Are the hybrids the way to go? I've heard the batteries only last 10 years so I wouldn't be able to get 20 years out of it without replacing the battery. We're looking at the RAV4 or CRV/HRV.

Help! Is hybrid the "boglehead" way to go now? I really try to avoid buying the latest tech or fads and haven't bought a car in 20 years so I'm out of the loop. My next purchase is going to be replacing my home rotary phone with a cell phone!! :happy
I would be happy with a regular RAV4. I know nothing about hybrids, but I'll read this discussion with a semi-open mind.
Before I go with a hybrid, I'll probably wait until the guys that I eat lunch with have one. In any case, I'm at least 5 years away from vehicle shopping.
Last edited by hudson on Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fireman
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by fireman »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:46 pm You are missing that in some cases the delta in price between ICE and hybrid is smaller, difference in fuel efficiency is larger, and expected maintenance maybe lower in the hybrid. All of those are the case for my (hybrid) vehicle.
If these are true, sure. Please give me an example.

Also, note that my example was heavier on city driving and used $4/gallon, both to the benefit of the hybrid. Try out the example of someone who drives nearly all highway miles and gas stays at $3.50 or below. Breakeven point is nearly 30 years in nominal dollars.
Leesbro63
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Leesbro63 »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:46 pm
fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present.

Take the 2023 RAV4 LE (base RAV4) as an example: the ICE version gets 27/35 mpg for $27,975; the hybrid version gets 41/38 at $30,725 (difference of $2,750). To make the math easier, let's assume hybrid gets 40 mpg and ICE gets 29 mpg (this assumes more city driving, which is to the benefit of the hybrid). If someone drives this car 12K miles per year, the fuel savings is 114 gallons. At $4/gallon (gas is currently $3.20 where I am), yearly savings is $456 in fuel. It would take 6 years to break even in nominal dollars and a few more (8-10?) than that in real dollars. Of course, if you drive many more miles and/or gas prices go higher than $4/g, then the hybrid looks better, but the ICE looks better if you drive less and/or gas prices stay below $4/g.

Genuinely curious - what am I missing?

Also, I tend to think that the majority of fuel economy gains are related to the weight of the vehicle (looking at you Toyota Prius). A friend had a Chevy Sprint in the late 80s. Crazy good gas mileage - close to 50 mpg. Thank goodness we were never in a collision though.
You are missing that in some cases the delta in price between ICE and hybrid is smaller, difference in fuel efficiency is larger, and expected maintenance maybe lower in the hybrid. All of those are the case for my (hybrid) vehicle.
+1. And resale values are similar.
stoptothink
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by stoptothink »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:04 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:46 pm You are missing that in some cases the delta in price between ICE and hybrid is smaller, difference in fuel efficiency is larger, and expected maintenance maybe lower in the hybrid. All of those are the case for my (hybrid) vehicle.
If these are true, sure. Please give me an example.

Also, note that my example was heavier on city driving and used $4/gallon, both to the benefit of the hybrid. Try out the example of someone who drives nearly all highway miles and gas stays at $3.50 or below. Breakeven point is nearly 30 years in nominal dollars.
Ford Maverick hybrid. The hybrid is the base model ($1500 cheaper), mixed driving mileage is 26 for ICE and 37 for hybrid but we've experienced a much greater differential (we're averaging 49.3mpg overall in first 6k miles and much more in city driving), and the weak link for the ICE is the transmission while the ECVT in the hybrid is much more simple and robust (not to mention longer interval between oil changes and you'll likely never have to replace brake pads in the hybrid). Certainly the ICE has its pros (towing, off-roading, you can't get the hybrid with AWD) but I can't even imagine a scenario where the ICE version would be cheaper; short or long term.
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by fireman »

I asked for an example and you gave a good one. As a minor point, I don't think the base model hybrid (XL hybrid) is $1,500 less than the base model ICE (XL). Both appear to me to be the same price. But you are still correct in that Ford Maverick hybrid seems more economical than the ICE model.

Any other examples or is this the only one? FWIW, I like the Maverick hybrid a lot. Of course, like so many vehicles these days, hybrid or ICE, the extended wait time to get one is painful.
stoptothink
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by stoptothink »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:21 pm I asked for an example and you gave a good one. As a minor point, I don't think the base model hybrid (XL hybrid) is $1,500 less than the base model ICE (XL). Both appear to me to be the same price. But you are still correct in that Ford Maverick hybrid seems more economical than the ICE model.

Any other examples or is this the only one? FWIW, I like the Maverick hybrid a lot. Of course, like so many vehicles these days, hybrid or ICE, the extended wait time to get one is painful.
That has changed for '24 orders, the '22 (which I own) and the '23 were $1500 cheaper for the hybrid, but they are LONG sold out. Clearly it was due to demand; you can get an ICE model, but you are likely to be waiting 18-months if you order a hybrid today. I don't know enough about other models and not worth my time to research, but the points stand. You have to make direct comparisons with the cars you are interested in and your specific use case. For our car and our use case, clearly the hybrid was the more cost efficient option (and it wasn't even close) - may or may not be for you.
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by abner kravitz »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present.

Take the 2023 RAV4 LE (base RAV4) as an example: the ICE version gets 27/35 mpg for $27,975; the hybrid version gets 41/38 at $30,725 (difference of $2,750). To make the math easier, let's assume hybrid gets 40 mpg and ICE gets 29 mpg (this assumes more city driving, which is to the benefit of the hybrid). If someone drives this car 12K miles per year, the fuel savings is 114 gallons. At $4/gallon (gas is currently $3.20 where I am), yearly savings is $456 in fuel. It would take 6 years to break even in nominal dollars and a few more (8-10?) than that in real dollars. Of course, if you drive many more miles and/or gas prices go higher than $4/g, then the hybrid looks better, but the ICE looks better if you drive less and/or gas prices stay below $4/g.

Genuinely curious - what am I missing?
I think if you want AWD on the gas LE, you need to pony up another 2K. The hybrids are AWD. That almost eliminates the price difference in that case. I wanted AWD for my driveway in the winter, it's nuts.
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by rockstar »

My experience with hybrids is about 150k miles before a battery replacement. This might have improved. But that’s what I saw on the one we owned and my friends who have owned hybrids. No idea on EVs.
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warner25
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by warner25 »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present...
I own a Gen 2 Prius, and it has been fantastic over its long lifetime, but I generally agree with you that most hybrids don't seem to be much more economical than ICE cars. That's not to say that ICE cars are much more economical either (as some people would have you believe when they warn of $5,000 battery replacements every 50,000 miles, which is clearly nonsense). It's just kind of a wash.

I think the Prius was (maybe still is?) somewhat special for a couple reasons.

1. It was a hybrid from the ground up, so there wasn't an ICE model for comparison. The comparisons were between the Corolla, which was a "compact," and the Camry which was a very slightly larger "mid-size" (like the Prius). The breakeven comparison to a Corolla wasn't very compelling, but the Prius had almost immediate savings compared to a Camry.

2. It seems that the early Prius was over-engineered and maybe sold at a thin margin so that Toyota could prove that hybrids were reliable and gain early market dominance. As others have said, it appears to be one of the most reliable cars ever sold.

If I had to replace my Prius today, I don't know what I'd do. My annual driving mileage has fallen from 20,000 to 5,000 per year since I bought it. 15 years later, if I had bought a Corolla, I might still be ahead (acknowledging again that the Corolla is smaller). A cheap ICE car might be my best option now. I've thought about "cheap" EVs like the Leaf, but if I drive so few miles that the Leaf's limited range would be fine, I probably don't drive enough to ever recover its up-front premium over a cheap ICE car.
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Funicular »

Love my Rav4 2021 mild hybrid. 41 mpg city 38 hwy claimed (and is what i am actually seeing). It is AWD and really peppy which is what sold my hubby on it (he is a track car guy). I understand even the F1 cars are hybrids!
We are in Duluth MN which has snow for about 6 mo AND hills, so AWD is more important than in other parts of the country. Without AWD, the mpg is of course better.

Has anyone else seen this great website: Green Car Reports [link corrected by admin LadyGeek]? They report on and rate new (and upcoming) hybrids and EVs. This website has just reported significant price drops in used EV car prices, especially Teslas.

I would personally love an EV but first of all, the prices make me laugh they are so high, and with our driving round trips frequently 180 mi, and what conservatively is a 50% haircut in range in cold weather, we are just going to wait and watch the technology improve and prices come down.
Leesbro63
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Leesbro63 »

Funicular wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:09 pm Love my Rav4 2021 mild hybrid. 41 mpg city 38 hwy claimed (and is what i am actually seeing). It is AWD and really peppy which is what sold my hubby on it (he is a track car guy). I understand even the F1 cars are hybrids!
We are in Duluth MN which has snow for about 6 mo AND hills, so AWD is more important than in other parts of the country. Without AWD, the mpg is of course better.

Has anyone else seen this great website: Green Car Reports [link corrected by admin LadyGeek]? They report on and rate new (and upcoming) hybrids and EVs. This website has just reported significant price drops in used EV car prices, especially Teslas.

I would personally love an EV but first of all, the prices make me laugh they are so high, and with our driving round trips frequently 180 mi, and what conservatively is a 50% haircut in range in cold weather, we are just going to wait and watch the technology improve and prices come down.
What’s a “mild” hybrid?
Leesbro63
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Leesbro63 »

warner25 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:14 pm
fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present...
I own a Gen 2 Prius, and it has been fantastic over its long lifetime, but I generally agree with you that most hybrids don't seem to be much more economical than ICE cars. That's not to say that ICE cars are much more economical either (as some people would have you believe when they warn of $5,000 battery replacements every 50,000 miles, which is clearly nonsense). It's just kind of a wash.

I think the Prius was (maybe still is?) somewhat special for a couple reasons.

1. It was a hybrid from the ground up, so there wasn't an ICE model for comparison. The comparisons were between the Corolla, which was a "compact," and the Camry which was a very slightly larger "mid-size" (like the Prius). The breakeven comparison to a Corolla wasn't very compelling, but the Prius had almost immediate savings compared to a Camry.

2. It seems that the early Prius was over-engineered and maybe sold at a thin margin so that Toyota could prove that hybrids were reliable and gain early market dominance. As others have said, it appears to be one of the most reliable cars ever sold.

If I had to replace my Prius today, I don't know what I'd do. My annual driving mileage has fallen from 20,000 to 5,000 per year since I bought it. 15 years later, if I had bought a Corolla, I might still be ahead (acknowledging again that the Corolla is smaller). A cheap ICE car might be my best option now. I've thought about "cheap" EVs like the Leaf, but if I drive so few miles that the Leaf's limited range would be fine, I probably don't drive enough to ever recover its up-front premium over a cheap ICE car.
I’m a Toyota/Lexus guy. And my understanding is that Prius and Corolla are about the same size and Camry is bigger.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:00 am

Ford still recommends changing the oil in our Ford Maverick hybrid every 3,000 miles :oops: Considering nearly half our miles are electric only, I feel just fine stretching that interval to 10,000+. I'd place a heavy bet that we never replace the battery or the brake pads as long as we own this truck.

Considering how long hybrids have been around now and how much data we have about reliability and maintenance, I'm kind of surprised that these myths still persist.
Once in a while, I recommend you go where nobody's around. Like a parking lot for a 9-5 office park on a Sunday. Get a little loop, get some speed and stand on the brakes. Do this once a week. Why? From many videos I've watched about Teslas, when they come in for brakes, they need the normal pads and rotors but also 4 calipers because they've frozen up from non-use. Many thousands of dollars instead of a DIY $150 in parts job.
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michaeljc70
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by michaeljc70 »

Of course you don't have to. Given where you live (price of gas) and how much you drive (250k miles/20 years) it might be worth it. I drive 3k miles a year so I can't imagine it being worth it for me unless there was some reason other than gas savings.
bendix
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by bendix »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:52 am
bendix wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:21 am I believe Hybrids are a left pocket richt pocket type of game. While they do use less fuel and help you to save money, the batteries are usually end of life after 10 years or 150k miles. Replacing it eats something in the rough order of magnitude of your accumulated fuel savings...
You are falling prey to the same fallacy that concerns most people with EV batteries not lasting "long enough"...as has been pointed out multiple times above on this thread, just because the hybrid batteries are warrantied for at least 10 years/150k miles doesn't mean that is all that they are expected to last. Read this very thread for plenty of examples. If you do need to replace the battery to get 20 years / 200k miles out of the vehicle, you are probably looking at an expense of $1-3k vs fuel savings of $10k (assuming 50 mpg hybrid vs 30 mpg ICE and fuel cost of $3.50/gal), which seems like a pretty good deal.
Little surprised of the aggressiveness here. Is that necessary?

The internet is awash with reports, even by manufacturers and dealers, including Toyota, that tell you the expected life of such a battery is anywhere between 5 and 15 years, where most I could find are around 8-10. I researched that maybe a year or two ago when I was contemplating a hybrid purchase. If your hybrid battery lasted longer, good for you, but why go on a crusade and lose manners over it?

And you could google quite easily what the cost of replacement is for the model you care for and make your own calculations and estimates about future fuel prices. To some that´s a no brainer, to me it was a more risky gamble than I wanted. I am very sorry if you feel uncomfortable about that.
bendix
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by bendix »

fireman wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:42 pm I am yet not convinced hybrids are more economical than ICEs, at least at present.

Take the 2023 RAV4 LE (base RAV4) as an example: the ICE version gets 27/35 mpg for $27,975; the hybrid version gets 41/38 at $30,725 (difference of $2,750). To make the math easier, let's assume hybrid gets 40 mpg and ICE gets 29 mpg (this assumes more city driving, which is to the benefit of the hybrid). If someone drives this car 12K miles per year, the fuel savings is 114 gallons. At $4/gallon (gas is currently $3.20 where I am), yearly savings is $456 in fuel. It would take 6 years to break even in nominal dollars and a few more (8-10?) than that in real dollars. Of course, if you drive many more miles and/or gas prices go higher than $4/g, then the hybrid looks better, but the ICE looks better if you drive less and/or gas prices stay below $4/g.

Genuinely curious - what am I missing?

Also, I tend to think that the majority of fuel economy gains are related to the weight of the vehicle (looking at you Toyota Prius). A friend had a Chevy Sprint in the late 80s. Crazy good gas mileage - close to 50 mpg. Thank goodness we were never in a collision though.
You could consider that after maybe 10 years, maybe more if you´re lucky, you´d spend roughly $5,000 in today´s Dollars on a new battery for the RAV4, which would take out roughly 11 years of fuel savings.
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warner25
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Re: Do I have to get a hybrid?

Post by warner25 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:20 pm I’m a Toyota/Lexus guy. And my understanding is that Prius and Corolla are about the same size and Camry is bigger.
Just going by the EPA data, looking at 2008 which is my model year, the Camry and Prius are both in the "midsize" segment while the Corolla is a "compact," with the following specs...

Corolla: 89 cubic feet of "passenger volume," and 14 cubic feet of "luggage volume"
Prius: 96 cubic feet of "passenger volume," and 16 cubic feet of "luggage volume"
Camry: 101 cubic feet of "passenger volume," and 15 cubic feet of "luggage volume"

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 24401#tab4

I've also owned a Corolla and Camry, although different (older) model years, and I would characterize the Corolla as being noticeably more cramped. At one time we actually had three kids' car seats across the back of the Prius, which is impressive to me.
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