Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

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strongboy2005
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by strongboy2005 »

I don’t have the most efficient model of Tesla (the model 3 performance) and I drive with a lead foot. I go 75 mph on the freeway on average, so I get almost exactly 3 miles per kWh. Here is what a 550 mile trip would look like in my Tesla:

Leg 1: 100% to 20% - 65.6 kWh = 196.8 miles
Charge stop 1: Charge 15 minutes to 80%
Leg 2: 80% to 20% - 49.2 kWh = 147.6 miles
Charge stop 2: Charge 15 minutes to 80%
Leg 3: 80% to 20% - 49.2 kWh = 147.6 miles
Charge stop 3: Charge 6 minutes to 50%
Leg 4: 50% to 26% - 19.3 kWh = 58 miles

Summary: drive for 2 hours 37 minutes, then stop for 15 minutes, then drive for 1 hour 58 minutes, then stop for 15 minutes, then drive for 1 hour 58 minutes, then stop for 6 minutes, drive 50 minutes, arrive at destination with 26% left.

Overall, I save time “refueling” by owning an EV:

It takes me about 4 seconds to plug my car in each day and about 2 seconds to unplug it. I plug in about 340 nights a year, so I spend 2,040 seconds plugging and unplugging my car. So, 34 minutes a year. We go on about 3 road trips in the car each year. Each road trip is about 45 minutes of charging total, so 135 minutes.

Fuel pumps can deliver 10 gallons of gas per minute (this is per Google - I guess we will go with this number, though I used to have a gas car with a 14.8 gallon tank and I know it wasn’t filling all the way up in 90 seconds…) I drive about 14,000 miles a year, so if I had a gas car getting 30 mpg rather than my Tesla, I would be using 466.7 gallons of gas a year. To pump 466.7 gallons of gas takes about 47 minutes. Plus, you have to drive to the gas station, wait in line, and pay at the pump. Let’s call it all 5 minutes every time you go to the pump. With a 14.8 gallon gas tank, let’s say you are filling up 14 gallons each time you go (so, a bit over 5% left in the tank). That means you are filling up about 33 times per year to drive 14,000 miles. That adds 165 minutes (33 x 5 minutes) to the time to fill up.

Summary:
Tesla - 34+135 minutes = 169 minutes
Gas car - 47+165 minutes = 212 minutes

So we actually save time “refueling” by owning an EV. Plus, no more having to go to gas stations, which I have found to be quite nice. 33 times a year is a lot! It’s amazing what a major inconvenience it was to have to go to the gas station now that I see what it is like to not have to go anymore. It makes me chuckle when people say my car is inconvenient when I just plug it in every night (to a regular wall outlet) and they have to keep going to a gas station. I used to wait in the long Costco gas lines - no more!
hunoraut
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by hunoraut »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 pm We are still considering a Tesla Model 3 to replace one of our ICE cars. I'm curious, from real Tesla/EV owners, how inconvenient are they in real life? We don't want to invest in a garage charger yet because it'll be a massive and somewhat expensive project based on where our circuit breaker is currently located. We do have an EVgo station about a half mile from the house. I imagine I'd be able to go quite a long time between charges in normal day to day use.

Most of my driving is city, but I will need my car to be able to make a ~550 mile road trip (each way). Yes, there are supercharges along most of the route, but how long does it really take to charge the car? And anecdotally, from a few people, I've heard that road trips are an immense hassle between the few Superchargers being taken, chargers being broken, or it taking a lot longer to charge than advertised.

Yesterday I drove the equivalent of Seattle to Bedford.

We had a scheduled charge of 10 and 25 minutes. Both times we “overcharged” because the kiddie in the car wanted extra time for bathroom break; insisted on eating in instead of takeout, etc.

We drive cross-continental multiple times a year, and half the time the ‘natural breaks’ exceeded the required charging breaks. (We take a dog and kiddie).

Charging stations average 10+ stalls each, with like a 2% failure rate; its a non-issue.

I probably would be annoyed if 110v home charging was the only option. It would have to be plugged in everyday. When I stay at the in-laws with 220v on the wall, it charges almost everyday. At home with a dedicated charger, i might plug-in twice a week.

Ive never had to supercharge with 1.5 or 2 hours of home. I occasionally use public charging when parking downtown, because it entitles me to free/premium parking spaces, and the charging rate is cheaper than the parking rate ;)

The only complaint about the car has nothing to do with charging. Just wish the reversing camera has some sort of built-on washer for when its raining or snowing.
onourway
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by onourway »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:47 pm The route we normally drive for road trips has Superchargers listed, but they are definitely spaced pretty far apart, and the terrain is through the mountains, so I'm skeptical that Tesla's map is accurate...

For those that do 110v charging, how many miles do you end up getting per hour?
You can't ask this question without also asking what climate the person answering is in. The experience of someone who lives in southern California and parks in a conditioned garage is going to be entirely different than someone who parks outdoors through the winter in northern New England. I take it from your user name that you probably live in Seattle, so L1 charging will probably be ok.

Tesla is generally pretty conservative with how they space their superchargers. My father was an early adopter and owns a 2013 Model S. He has made an annual ~7,000 mile summer road trip around the US for over 50 years. He drives a lot of long days on that trip so had never taken the Tesla until last summer, when it was 9 years old. It reports about 215 miles charge when full in summer weather. Despite this limited range, he took that trip in under 3 weeks and to my surprise, had a fantastic experience and plans to do it again this summer.
OldSport
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by OldSport »

ClassII wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:39 pm I'd look real hard at your city driving habits. Friends of mine have charged two Teslas using plain old wall outlets (120V) for years with no complaints. It gets them 30-45 miles overnight which is more than they need for around town driving. If they go on a road trip they use a supercharger as normal and then when they get home just drive normally. It just takes a few days for the car to get all the way back up to 100% is all. If they really want they just try to hit up a high speed charger in town at the mall or whatever to top it off after a road trip.

Yes using a regular wall outlet gives a paltry charge rate but keep in mind it's not essential to have the car at 100% all the time. Its not like you top your gas car up every day to be totally full, so why should the electric car be different? Especially with Tesla's supercharger network I wouldn't even worry about an unexpected road trip. 20 minutes will get you filled up on your way out of town.

Now, if you have zero charging ability at home like at an apartment building, that's different. I could see it working only if you had reliable charging at work.
Would love a model 3 performance, but I wish they made a 120V 20amp charger. I have several commercial grade 20A outlets in the garage already in a very convenient location for eV charging, but the breaker is on the opposite back corner of the house external to brick exterior, which totally kills the value proposition to add the higher voltage charger. I also drive 50 miles per day, but with traffic probably 60 miles eV equivalent.
anil686
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by anil686 »

I have a Model 3 and a Mach E and I do not find any inconveniences IMO. Charge both at home - have a L2 charger for one and a standard wall outlet for the other and depending on charge rotate the spots in the garage to charge as needed. Had a Bolt before both of those. As others have pointed out - the most important thing to know is your driving distance (literal) every day. Not how much time it takes but the literal distance and if it less than 30 miles per day driven - you can probably easily get by with an L1 charger. For longer road trips you can fast charge/supercharge. I found it a lot more inconvenient to stop for gas previously on my way to work or my way coming home than it is to charge. JMO though...
mpnret
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mpnret »

OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:19 am
ClassII wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:39 pm I'd look real hard at your city driving habits. Friends of mine have charged two Teslas using plain old wall outlets (120V) for years with no complaints. It gets them 30-45 miles overnight which is more than they need for around town driving. If they go on a road trip they use a supercharger as normal and then when they get home just drive normally. It just takes a few days for the car to get all the way back up to 100% is all. If they really want they just try to hit up a high speed charger in town at the mall or whatever to top it off after a road trip.

Yes using a regular wall outlet gives a paltry charge rate but keep in mind it's not essential to have the car at 100% all the time. Its not like you top your gas car up every day to be totally full, so why should the electric car be different? Especially with Tesla's supercharger network I wouldn't even worry about an unexpected road trip. 20 minutes will get you filled up on your way out of town.

Now, if you have zero charging ability at home like at an apartment building, that's different. I could see it working only if you had reliable charging at work.
Would love a model 3 performance, but I wish they made a 120V 20amp charger. I have several commercial grade 20A outlets in the garage already in a very convenient location for eV charging, but the breaker is on the opposite back corner of the house external to brick exterior, which totally kills the value proposition to add the higher voltage charger. I also drive 50 miles per day, but with traffic probably 60 miles eV equivalent.
Tesla has a 120v 20amp charger. My model 3 charges at 8 mi/hr using it.
stoptothink
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

ClassII wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:02 pm
mhalley wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:40 pm Make a bad getaway car.
https://www.autoblog.com/2023/03/08/sus ... -charging/
Two people accused of stealing $8,000 of merchandise used a Tesla as their getaway vehicle.
But they stopped to charge it 15 minutes down the road, where police located them.
An image shared by police on social media shows the Tesla packed full of gaming systems.
Because if they stopped for gas they'd be in the clear. Considering they have roughly the same range as a normal car they're probably dumb enough to do a heist on a 1/4 tank just as much as a 1/4 charge.

But then a post like yours is only there to stoke a negative emotion about EVs not have anything actually constructive to debate with.
Possibly. Seems like it wasn't necessarily the range (which could be roughly the same as a comparable ICE car, depending on the specific model), but the time it took to charge that was the issue. Sounds likes mhalley was just interjecting some comedic relief. Fueling is different than with an ICE, you have to determine for yourself if it is better or worse for your situation (an EV is probably better for us).
zlandar
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by zlandar »

If you live in an area with a lot of EVs then you may have to wait for a charger stall to open. I live in the SE where EVs are not as prevalent. I've never seen a wait at a Tesla or non-Tesla fast charging location.

If it frequently snows/freezing temps EV range will drop. It will take longer to fast charge the EV.

For the 550 mile trip if you have an ICE available you can go with any EV. Otherwise stick with a Tesla for the charging network.

If you drive less than a 50 miles in the city using a standard 120v outlet at home should work.
stoptothink
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

zlandar wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:06 am If you live in an area with a lot of EVs then you may have to wait for a charger stall to open. I live in the SE where EVs are not as prevalent. I've never seen a wait at a Tesla or non-Tesla fast charging location.

If it frequently snows/freezing temps EV range will drop. It will take longer to fast charge the EV.

For the 550 mile trip if you have an ICE available you can go with any EV. Otherwise stick with a Tesla for the charging network.

If you drive less than a 50 miles in the city using a standard 120v outlet at home should work.
We live in an area where most residences are apartments and condos (so no at-home charging), there are few public charging stations (3 total in my city of ~50k residents) and the cost is high (>$.50/kWh), yet we have a much higher than national median percentage of EVs. I often wonder if it is just the minority of single family home owners who have EVs because public charging would be a huge PITA around here.
mmcmonster
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mmcmonster »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 pm We are still considering a Tesla Model 3 to replace one of our ICE cars. I'm curious, from real Tesla/EV owners, how inconvenient are they in real life? We don't want to invest in a garage charger yet because it'll be a massive and somewhat expensive project based on where our circuit breaker is currently located. We do have an EVgo station about a half mile from the house. I imagine I'd be able to go quite a long time between charges in normal day to day use.

Most of my driving is city, but I will need my car to be able to make a ~550 mile road trip (each way). Yes, there are supercharges along most of the route, but how long does it really take to charge the car? And anecdotally, from a few people, I've heard that road trips are an immense hassle between the few Superchargers being taken, chargers being broken, or it taking a lot longer to charge than advertised.
I've had a Tesla as my primary vehicle since 2014. Don't get one unless you have some sort of home charging set up. My parents had a house built in the early 1980s with the circuit breaker about as far away from the garage as you can imagine. The electrician ran a metal conduit along the foundation on the outside of the house and back in to the garage. It cost a bit extra, but when they sold the house they put the fact that it had a charging port capable 240v outlet in the garage as a feature.

As for inconveniences, you need a second car (gas or hybrid) for longer trips. Range anxiety fades away fairly fast, as driving 200+ miles a day is a pretty odd occurance for me. I would suggest you look at https://supercharge.info/map to see if there are superchargers in your area, and https://www.plugshare.com/ for other options. Doesn't mean you can't go far in an electric vehicle. Just means you need to do a modicum of planning, both for where to charge and how much time it will take to charge. In reality, anything more than 300 miles in one direction I'd rather take a gas/hybrid car.

That being said, supercharging has gotten fast! An important part of supercharging is to set your destination as the supercharger on the car map. That way the car will pre-condition the batteries to make them absorb a charge faster. In one hour you can probably get an extra 200+ miles. After spending 3 hours in a car, I generally need at least half an hour for a bathroom break and stretch my legs, so this isn't too unreasonable.

You will go through tires faster than a normal car, just because electric cars are heavier and you tend to accelerate faster in them.

Teslas don't have a set service schedule. It's kinda nice, but also annoying as I'm used to taking cars in for service regularly, not just when the vehicle tells you there's a problem. That being said, Tesla self diagnostics are excellent. I get a heads up when the 12v battery is going to go bad. I also get a heads up when the tire threads are running low (that was a surprise one!).

I'm on my second Tesla. I don't think I will ever go back to a gas or hybrid car. Almost certainly will buy another Tesla as the other car companies are still trying to catch up to Tesla on the electronics. That being said, Tesla is still trying to catch up on the overall fit and finish of a luxury car.
nura
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by nura »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 pm Most of my driving is city, but I will need my car to be able to make a ~550 mile road trip (each way). Yes, there are supercharges along most of the route, but how long does it really take to charge the car?
Depends when you plan to make the 550 mile road trip. During a holiday weekend, there were dozens of EVs in line to get to the Charging spot at rest area off the interstate. Even at charging station near major mall where I live, during holiday shopping season, one can expect more time get the spot than time spent for charging.
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Will do good
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Will do good »

My trips to visit my daughter in Michigan is 400+ miles, that means 2 charges along the way, extra 75 minutes each way wasted. Round trip is 2.5 hours extra. When I'm there I have to plug in her 110v and that takes another full night charging to use during the day. 1 full day charging to get back on the road home. During winter sub-zero the milage and charging speed is pretty bad.

I've seen broken chargers and long lines/waits too.

EV is good city/commuter car if you can charge at home, not so much if you have to drive long distances.
Afty
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Afty »

OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:19 am Would love a model 3 performance, but I wish they made a 120V 20amp charger.
Tesla does, as an accessory for their mobile charger: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters (look for the NEMA 5-20 adapter)

I used one for a few months before getting a 240v plug installed.
YeahBuddy
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by YeahBuddy »

cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:04 pm
RobLyons wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:31 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:42 pm
RobLyons wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:12 pm If I knew I needed to make long road trips like you detailed, I would not go EV yet. Based on the average EV range, 550 miles each way means you will need to stop at least 4 times to charge. More like 5-6 if it's cold weather. That's a lot of time sitting and waiting.
Are you counting home and destination as stops?

A trip like this is probably 2 stops, or 3 spending the same aggregate time charging. Either way, probably just an hour. I’d stop for that long on a trip like that anyway.

No I'm not counting either as stops.

Average EV range is 250 miles, more like 175 in cold weather. 1100/250 = 4 stops to charge after leaving with 100% battery (intervals of 250, 500, 750, 1,000). Or 6 stops for cold weather.

Or if you're doing the 15 minute stop at a supercharger to get you 200 miles (80%) that will be 5 stops

In this case I'd rather have a hybrid like Prius etc so I could gas up 2 times for a total combined time of maybe 5 minutes.
The vehicle OP is considering has more range than this...M3LR can get around 310 miles at 70 mph on the highway. Most Teslas would be expected to lose 15-20% range in cold, but making an assumption about OP based on user name, that seems less likely to be a major issue for them. I imagine two relatively short 20-25 min supercharger stops for charging on each leg of their business trips seems reasonable, but they could likely do it with one longer 30 min stop per leg and destination charging. A Model S, Lucid Air or Mercedes EQS could easily do that trip with one short stop, though obviously all of those cost quite a bit more than a Prius!

Ok, I didn't see OP post M3LR. The long range model 3 has not been available from Tesla new for several months now, unless OP is buying used or from Tesla current local inventory?
I have a few friends with M3 Performance (advertised 315 miles range) and they are lucky to see 200 miles of range in the winter here.
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CC1E
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by CC1E »

jebmke wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:54 pm
CC1E wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:01 pm Depending on your drinking habits you may get by with Level-1 charging (120v outlet), especially if it’s a 20 amp circuit.
Is charging faster or slower for those who drink?
Ha! Everything goes faster when you’re drinking! And hopefully that Tesla will drive you home from the bar soon.
OldSport
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by OldSport »

mpnret wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:56 am
OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:19 am
ClassII wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:39 pm I'd look real hard at your city driving habits. Friends of mine have charged two Teslas using plain old wall outlets (120V) for years with no complaints. It gets them 30-45 miles overnight which is more than they need for around town driving. If they go on a road trip they use a supercharger as normal and then when they get home just drive normally. It just takes a few days for the car to get all the way back up to 100% is all. If they really want they just try to hit up a high speed charger in town at the mall or whatever to top it off after a road trip.

Yes using a regular wall outlet gives a paltry charge rate but keep in mind it's not essential to have the car at 100% all the time. Its not like you top your gas car up every day to be totally full, so why should the electric car be different? Especially with Tesla's supercharger network I wouldn't even worry about an unexpected road trip. 20 minutes will get you filled up on your way out of town.

Now, if you have zero charging ability at home like at an apartment building, that's different. I could see it working only if you had reliable charging at work.
Would love a model 3 performance, but I wish they made a 120V 20amp charger. I have several commercial grade 20A outlets in the garage already in a very convenient location for eV charging, but the breaker is on the opposite back corner of the house external to brick exterior, which totally kills the value proposition to add the higher voltage charger. I also drive 50 miles per day, but with traffic probably 60 miles eV equivalent.
Tesla has a 120v 20amp charger. My model 3 charges at 8 mi/hr using it.
I see that they do. The one I'm seeing is only quoting 4mi/hr for 5-20 vs. 3 mi/hr for 5-15. I work long hours, so 10 hrs/day would only be 40 miles/day. Cutting a bit close. Where did you find a charger that does 8 mi/hrs for a model 3 on 120V 20A?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

8 mi/hr would be excellent. Even 5-6 mi/hr would be a game changer. However having to install a new line would probably cost thousands and be quite disruptive given my home layout.
impatientInv
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by impatientInv »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 pm We are still considering a Tesla Model 3 to replace one of our ICE cars. I'm curious, from real Tesla/EV owners, how inconvenient are they in real life? We don't want to invest in a garage charger yet because it'll be a massive and somewhat expensive project based on where our circuit breaker is currently located. We do have an EVgo station about a half mile from the house. I imagine I'd be able to go quite a long time between charges in normal day to day use.

Most of my driving is city, but I will need my car to be able to make a ~550 mile road trip (each way). Yes, there are supercharges along most of the route, but how long does it really take to charge the car? And anecdotally, from a few people, I've heard that road trips are an immense hassle between the few Superchargers being taken, chargers being broken, or it taking a lot longer to charge than advertised.
I love of Plugin-EVs. With 40-50 miles EV driving and being able to take long road trips. Toyota Rav4 PrIme - Plugin EV will be my next vehicle. I have enjoyed Prius plugin Hybrid. They have less than 1/6th the size of EV battery, easy to charge over night without circuit breaker change at home. These can be charged in around 10hrs from standard 110V outlet, on board charger. No change in circuit breakers needed..

There are many alternative Plug-in Hybrids - Lexus, Hyundai, Audi/VW, Mercedes, BMW..
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stan1
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stan1 »

oxothuk wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:38 pm Have you gotten a quote from an electrician for what it would cost to install a 240v outlet in your garage? Ideally 50 amps, but even 20 amps would be a huge improvement over trickle charging.

If you are even considering a $50k Tesla, then don’t cheap out on the electric upgrade
The electricians are onto this, they know if you can afford a $50K-150K EV you can and will pay $3-5K to add a 50/60 amp circuit breaker and a 240V outlet. Maybe you'll find one who will do it at time and materials if you are lucky.

There are some interstates that have good coverage for charging, some do not. There are also some cities that have remarkably little charging infrastructure (e.g. Tucson comes to mind).

We use our gas car for long trips and the EV for local driving.
Agree I would not want to own one unless I had charging capacity at home.
Journeyman510
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Journeyman510 »

stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:58 pm
oxothuk wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:38 pm Have you gotten a quote from an electrician for what it would cost to install a 240v outlet in your garage? Ideally 50 amps, but even 20 amps would be a huge improvement over trickle charging.

If you are even considering a $50k Tesla, then don’t cheap out on the electric upgrade
The electricians are onto this, they know if you can afford a $50K-150K EV you can and will pay $3-5K to add a 50/60 amp circuit breaker and a 240V outlet. Maybe you'll find one who will do it at time and materials if you are lucky.

There are some interstates that have good coverage for charging, some do not. There are also some cities that have remarkably little charging infrastructure (e.g. Tucson comes to mind).

We use our gas car for long trips and the EV for local driving.
Agree I would not want to own one unless I had charging capacity at home.
Was 1k for me.
Afty
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Afty »

OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:37 pm
I see that they do. The one I'm seeing is only quoting 4mi/hr for 5-20 vs. 3 mi/hr for 5-15. I work long hours, so 10 hrs/day would only be 40 miles/day. Cutting a bit close. Where did you find a charger that does 8 mi/hrs for a model 3 on 120V 20A?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

8 mi/hr would be excellent. Even 5-6 mi/hr would be a game changer. However having to install a new line would probably cost thousands and be quite disruptive given my home layout.
Here’s how to do the calculation. 120V * 20A * 0.80 for continuous load = 1920W

A Model 3 LR has a real world efficiency of around 270 Wh/mi. 1920W/270Wh/mi = ~7 mi/hr

A Model 3 RWD is a bit more efficient which probably gets you to 8 mi/hr.
mpnret
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mpnret »

Afty wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:31 pm
OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:37 pm
I see that they do. The one I'm seeing is only quoting 4mi/hr for 5-20 vs. 3 mi/hr for 5-15. I work long hours, so 10 hrs/day would only be 40 miles/day. Cutting a bit close. Where did you find a charger that does 8 mi/hrs for a model 3 on 120V 20A?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

8 mi/hr would be excellent. Even 5-6 mi/hr would be a game changer. However having to install a new line would probably cost thousands and be quite disruptive given my home layout.
Here’s how to do the calculation. 120V * 20A * 0.80 for continuous load = 1920W

A Model 3 LR has a real world efficiency of around 270 Wh/mi. 1920W/270Wh/mi = ~7 mi/hr

A Model 3 RWD is a bit more efficient which probably gets you to 8 mi/hr.
I have a 2021 AWD model 3 with 353 mile range using the charger that came with the car with the 20a plug from Tesla accessories. Here is a screen capture of it charging @8mi/hr on a 120v 20a circuit: That's about normal from discussions on the Tesla forums.
Image
OldSport
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by OldSport »

Afty wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:31 pm
OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:37 pm
I see that they do. The one I'm seeing is only quoting 4mi/hr for 5-20 vs. 3 mi/hr for 5-15. I work long hours, so 10 hrs/day would only be 40 miles/day. Cutting a bit close. Where did you find a charger that does 8 mi/hrs for a model 3 on 120V 20A?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

8 mi/hr would be excellent. Even 5-6 mi/hr would be a game changer. However having to install a new line would probably cost thousands and be quite disruptive given my home layout.
Here’s how to do the calculation. 120V * 20A * 0.80 for continuous load = 1920W

A Model 3 LR has a real world efficiency of around 270 Wh/mi. 1920W/270Wh/mi = ~7 mi/hr

A Model 3 RWD is a bit more efficient which probably gets you to 8 mi/hr.
I'd be looking at Model 3 LR or Performance if the LR is not available.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by OldSport »

mpnret wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:45 pm
Afty wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:31 pm
OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:37 pm
I see that they do. The one I'm seeing is only quoting 4mi/hr for 5-20 vs. 3 mi/hr for 5-15. I work long hours, so 10 hrs/day would only be 40 miles/day. Cutting a bit close. Where did you find a charger that does 8 mi/hrs for a model 3 on 120V 20A?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

8 mi/hr would be excellent. Even 5-6 mi/hr would be a game changer. However having to install a new line would probably cost thousands and be quite disruptive given my home layout.
Here’s how to do the calculation. 120V * 20A * 0.80 for continuous load = 1920W

A Model 3 LR has a real world efficiency of around 270 Wh/mi. 1920W/270Wh/mi = ~7 mi/hr

A Model 3 RWD is a bit more efficient which probably gets you to 8 mi/hr.
I have a 2021 AWD model 3 with 353 mile range using the charger that came with the car with the 20a plug from Tesla accessories. Here is a screen capture of it charging @8mi/hr on a 120v 20a circuit: That's about normal from discussions on the Tesla forums.
Image
Nice. So Teslas quotes 4 mi/hr is being conservative?
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mpnret »

OldSport wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:02 pm Nice. So Teslas quotes 4 mi/hr is being conservative?
It looks like that's the case. I can drive 100 miles a day and still leave the house every morning with a full tank. Even if I go over 100 some days I can always make it up in the coming days. My electric panel is in the garage right by the rear of the car and I could easily add a 240v charger but it looks like a waste of money at this point. Haven't been to a supercharger in over a year and the only reason I used them back then is I got a year free supercharging with the car.
Last edited by mpnret on Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Paradise »

120v charger is a decent short term stop gap but you’ll definitely want to get a wall charger as there will be days that you will forget to charge, impromptu road trips, etc. You’ll be finding yourself supercharging regularly, which defeats my main reason of driving an EV (no need to go to gas stations).

For price, Check to see if there are any rebates and shop around on the labor (there’s a wide range of prices for these).

For context, in our prior house, we installed a charger in the best possible spot in 2020 for $500. Highest price was $1500!! Used a basic nema 14-50.
In our current house in 2022, it was about the worst spot and it cost $1700. Highest price was $4000!! Local incentives made the Tesla wall unit free, so we went with that. Really no big difference just looks nice and has charge stats.

Other tips:
Sometimes installers will inflate their prices if they find out you’re installing a Tesla charger (I guess they assume you have money or want a piece of the incentives). Be as generic as possible for the quote (“I need a Nema 14-50 installed in my garage.” For what reason? “I’m planning on moving my washer dryer to the garage”).

Never pay a fee for the estimate. Measure the linear cable distance from your breaker to your install spot and ask for a ballpark based on that number.

Good luck!
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by MildlyEccentric »

I've got an EV (a Nissan LEAF with about a 150 mile range on a good day). I charge it using a standard wall outlet. I charge it about every 5 days when it gets below "half a tank" which works well for me. I took it on a couple of longer trips which required a charge on the road. Since my car has a less common charging system (CHAdeMO), it required a bit of up front planning. I wouldn't recommend charging on the road as a routine matter as it's significantly longer than a gas fill up. I've had to wait for a charger once or twice as the only working charger was in use when I arrived, so an extra 15 minutes on top of the half hour charge. I've also been able to charge for free on the road occasionally.

My friend with two Tesla's says road trips are not a problem for him as he just has a meal while he's charging, but he has more charging options and more range.

If you want to take road trips you should have a smart phone as most charging stations work through an app. Once or twice, the charging station touch screens were not working, but I was able to get a charge using the app. There are a couple of helper apps you want to get to know like PlugShare and ABRP in addition to the charging station apps for Electrify America and EVgo.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by cmr79 »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:33 pm
cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:04 pm
RobLyons wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:31 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:42 pm
RobLyons wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:12 pm If I knew I needed to make long road trips like you detailed, I would not go EV yet. Based on the average EV range, 550 miles each way means you will need to stop at least 4 times to charge. More like 5-6 if it's cold weather. That's a lot of time sitting and waiting.
Are you counting home and destination as stops?

A trip like this is probably 2 stops, or 3 spending the same aggregate time charging. Either way, probably just an hour. I’d stop for that long on a trip like that anyway.

No I'm not counting either as stops.

Average EV range is 250 miles, more like 175 in cold weather. 1100/250 = 4 stops to charge after leaving with 100% battery (intervals of 250, 500, 750, 1,000). Or 6 stops for cold weather.

Or if you're doing the 15 minute stop at a supercharger to get you 200 miles (80%) that will be 5 stops

In this case I'd rather have a hybrid like Prius etc so I could gas up 2 times for a total combined time of maybe 5 minutes.
The vehicle OP is considering has more range than this...M3LR can get around 310 miles at 70 mph on the highway. Most Teslas would be expected to lose 15-20% range in cold, but making an assumption about OP based on user name, that seems less likely to be a major issue for them. I imagine two relatively short 20-25 min supercharger stops for charging on each leg of their business trips seems reasonable, but they could likely do it with one longer 30 min stop per leg and destination charging. A Model S, Lucid Air or Mercedes EQS could easily do that trip with one short stop, though obviously all of those cost quite a bit more than a Prius!

Ok, I didn't see OP post M3LR. The long range model 3 has not been available from Tesla new for several months now, unless OP is buying used or from Tesla current local inventory?
I have a few friends with M3 Performance (advertised 315 miles range) and they are lucky to see 200 miles of range in the winter here.
OP didn't specify, but I used that example as the most popular overall model. Not sure if Tesla's current hold on orders is relevant unless OP needs a new vehicle on a short timeframe. The M3P has achieved pretty similar results, 280 miles, in similar 70 mph driving loops. Obviously the RWD will have less range with a significantly smaller battery.

I'm not sure where your friends live or how aggressively they drive to see only 200 miles of highway range in the winter with a M3P...other factors like terrain, wheel size and tire choice obviously play a role too. I'm not sure how much of a range penalty snow tires are, but I imagine it is significant.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by enad »

How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by hunoraut »

enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pm How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
Works for me. At a latitude similar to Anchorage.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by WestCoastPhan »

enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pm How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
How many folks who have an EV would go back to an ICE for their next car?
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by harikaried »

enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pmHow many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
We replaced a Camry with a Model 3 and preferred driving it for road trips over the ICE vehicle while just using a regular wall outlet at home. After getting a Model Y to replace a Forester, we no longer have any ICE vehicles, but we did get a 240V outlet (for the included 14-50 adapter) installed for no additional charge when doing other electrical work.

We've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

WestCoastPhan wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:09 am
enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pm How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
How many folks who have an EV would go back to an ICE for their next car?
The only available data we have suggests about 1 in 5 go back to ICE.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Leif »

I've had a Tesla since 2016. In that time period I've had two cases where charging became an issue. One was a trip to the mountains. There were no superchargers up there. Or even what is called Level 2 chargers (30 miles per hour of charging), which are available at some hotels. I had to charge from a 120V power source. At that rate I get about 3 miles of driving for each 1 hour of charging. So, overnight I was able to add about 30-40 miles to my range.

The other case was an area well off the highway system (Carlsbad Caverns). Again I was able to charge at the hotel using 120V. Most charging is available in metro areas and on the interstate.

I do have a home charger that gives me 40 amps @ 220V. Even near empty my car is fully charged in the morning.

Things are improving. I read that in 5 years the number of EV chargers equaled what gas stations took 50 years to reach. With the recently passed law designed to encourage more EV charging I expect the pace will quicken.

A real world inconvenience is taking your car in for an oil change, tune up, or other ICE related maintenance.
Last edited by Leif on Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mervinj7 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:17 am
WestCoastPhan wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:09 am
enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pm How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
How many folks who have an EV would go back to an ICE for their next car?
The only available data we have suggests about 1 in 5 go back to ICE.
The number one reason cited by that study is lack of home charging. That's why I still highly recommend having easy access to level 2 charging somewhere convenient.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... -big-issue

Conversely, the number one reason my EV is more convenient than my gas car is that I can easily charge it at home once a week.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by enad »

harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 am We've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
Curious. Why did you prefer the Tesla over ICE on 1500+ mile road trips? Surely the time it takes to charge is longer vs. filling up at a gas station
Leif wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:29 am I've had a Tesla since 2016. In that time period I've had two cases where charging became an issue. One was a trip to the mountains. There were no superchargers up there. Or even what is called Level 2 chargers (30 miles per hour of charging), which are available at some hotels. I had to charge from a 120V power source. At that rate I get about 3 miles of driving for each 1 hour of charging. So, overnight I was able to add about 30-40 miles to my range.

The other case was an area well off the highway system (Carlsbad Caverns). Again I was able to charge at the hotel using 120V. Most charging is available in metro areas and on the interstate.

I do have a home charger that gives me 40 amps @ 220V. Even near empty my car is fully charged in the morning.

Things are improving. I read that in 5 years the number of EV chargers equaled what gas stations took 50 years to reach. With the recently passed law designed to encourage more EV charging I expect the pace will quicken.
Some friends bought a pair of Tesla's and ran into the same issue. Now they each carry a portable gasoline generator in the trunk of their cars just in case they need to charge when there isn't an outlet nearby. I asked if that defeats the purpose of an EV and they said it partly does but it's better than being stranded in the middle of nowhere. Others still have 1 or 2 ICE vehicles at home for longer trips and trips where EV charging is not widespread.

For those reasons we'll probably look at a Hybrid instead of an EV especially since the next home is going to be out in the middle of nowhere i.e. totally off-grid.
Last edited by enad on Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

mervinj7 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:52 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:17 am
WestCoastPhan wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:09 am
enad wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:51 pm How many folks who have an EV have it as their sole vehicle and no ICE vehicle?
How many folks who have an EV would go back to an ICE for their next car?
The only available data we have suggests about 1 in 5 go back to ICE.
The number one reason cited by that study is lack of home charging. That's why I still highly recommend having easy access to level 2 charging somewhere convenient.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... -big-issue

Conversely, the number one reason my EV is more convenient than my gas car is that I can easily charge it at home once a week.
Seems to be pretty much a consensus; if you can't charge at home (or work), an EV probably isn't for you yet. Interestingly, both of my friends that went back to ICE were outliers - they had charging available at home and work - but just could not get over range anxiety. One of them did have an incident where they ran out of juice in a desolate area, which resulted in them selling their Mach-E the next week. Poor planning on their part, but it didn't change the situation.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Nestegg_User »

Afty wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:21 pm I’ve had a Model 3 LR for the past 4 years. My take:

1. It will be a serious hassle if you can’t charge at home or work.
2. Road trip hassles are way overblown in my experience. Granted I live in California, but I’ve done a number of road trips and have never had to wait for Supercharger availability. The car tells you in real time how many spots are open so you can adjust if the Supercharger you were planning to stop at is busy. If you want to minimize charging time, you will want to run the car close to empty and charge partway, stopping more frequently for shorter times. I find it’s more convenient to stop for longer so that you have time to eat a meal, use the bathroom, etc.

OP: if you want to see how charging stops would affect your 550 mile trip check out https://abetterrouteplanner.com/. It’s like Google Maps for EVs.
I did a check on your route planner site for a trip from our midwest location to Boulder and it showed just over three hours of charging time for a hyunda ioniq (used a 2022 RWD as example), as two of the charging locations (and there are few on the route) required 95-98% state-of-charge to make the distance to the next charging location.
That further indicates that I'd be better off with a hybrid rather than a BEV, or that I DEFINITELY want to hold onto my ICE vehicle for the trip. It certainly shows why middle of US drivers who might have plans for longer trips can't, at this time, choose BEV for longer trips.

(I also looked at a similar trip from here to Marco Island FL and it shows just over two and a half hours dedicated to charging, but in that trip it only requires states of charge a bit above 80% (82-85) for the six stops. So, all in all, there would still be range anxiety and especially anxiety that the chargers at the expected location are available and in operation.)

{if we did get a BEV, we wouldn't have problems charging at home as we already have an available 60 amp 240 circuit available (from a previous hot tub); would just need the specific charger as we have a large garage, with even separate side opener where the BEV could be in our 42 1/2 ft by 23 ft garage}
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by tl24 »

Nestegg_User wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:51 pm
I did a check on your route planner site for a trip from our midwest location to Boulder and it showed just over three hours of charging time for a hyunda ioniq (used a 2022 RWD as example), as two of the charging locations (and there are few on the route) required 95-98% state-of-charge to make the distance to the next charging location.
I’m curious, what were the results with a Tesla, such as a Model 3? Wondering if there are a handful of Superchargers available for that trip.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by ram »

I live in rural northern Wisconsin with snow on the ground for 5 months of the year. I do not own an EV. Many of my friends have Teslas. For most it is a 3rd car and for some a 4th car. 3 to 5 hour trips to nearby cities with airports are a necessity for us irrespective of the weather. One friend had significant anxiety on one occasion when his car was stuck on the road due to an accident where it took an hour for the police to clear the road and he could not go forward or backward and had to cut back on heating to conserve energy. There are few charging stations nearby.
Whereas all of my friends like to use the Teslas for in town driving in good weather they all want the reassurance of an ICE car when needed. This includes long distance driving and driving over 3 to 5 inches of snow. (AWD/4WD ICE truck/SUV with snow tires). Currently we only own 2 vehicles an ICE sedan and a hybrid SUV. In summer 2021 I made a 7000 mile round trip from Wisconsin to San Francisco, Yosemite NP, Tahoe etc. The decision to drive was a fairly last minute decision as there were no rental cars available in San Francisco.(We had booked lodging inside the park 11 months ahead). At the Yosemite lodge inside the NP I saw only 2 slots for charging amongst the 200 + parking slots. I would be very anxious to make that trip in an EV.
I am interested in EVs but I think it will be a few years before it is a practical car for rural America. (The cold climate and the need to heat the car decreases range)
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Nestegg_User »

tl24 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:27 pm
Nestegg_User wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:51 pm
I did a check on your route planner site for a trip from our midwest location to Boulder and it showed just over three hours of charging time for a hyunda ioniq (used a 2022 RWD as example), as two of the charging locations (and there are few on the route) required 95-98% state-of-charge to make the distance to the next charging location.
I’m curious, what were the results with a Tesla, such as a Model 3? Wondering if there are a handful of Superchargers available for that trip.
I didn't examine Tesla, since that isn't what we would likely buy (let's just say his policies aren't compatible, and with his history it's not totally out of the realm that he would unilaterally do something that would make Teslas incompatible with our use case). Not to mention that they are also the most expensive option for BEV, for most users (I realize that there are the very high end, but we aren't the target market... we only have about three large investible along with my SS and pension.)

Further, it may show that, if Tesla is indeed the only model that could make the trip reasonable timewise, that indeed we always need an ICE for our use case.

I've been in areas that even with an ICE, if there's a problem you have no easy solution... true "middle of nowhere" cases (if you've ever been on 36 in northern KS or traveling from Abilene or Sweetwater TX through San Angelo on your way to San Antonio.... then you know.... and then there's the areas where those cases are darned right metropolitan... like northern WY or far eastern Montana... or parts of eastern OR or Nevada). Indeed, there used to be a sign east of Grand junction that said "last gas for 169 miles"; it's a few miles closer now that they built another station near Green River... but every year some "easterner" doesn't realize that it means it and runs out of gas, as they are so used to having gas stations readily available (likely the same with CA residents and charging stations).
<end rant>

edit: I checked for a Tesla model three, standard.... and it would have about an hour and forty five minutes of charging time... but wouldn't need more than 72% state of charge.... but would have eight stops for the trip
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mervinj7 »

ram wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:56 pm At the Yosemite lodge inside the NP I saw only 2 slots for charging amongst the 200 + parking slots. I would be very anxious to make that trip in an EV.
I am interested in EVs but I think it will be a few years before it is a practical car for rural America.
Incidentally, there are now 8 L2 chargers in Yosemite Valley Lodge, 2 L2 chargers at the Ahwahnee Hotel, and 2 at the Yosemite store. The Crane gas station, on the other hand, is temporarily closed. The nearest gas is now a 30 minute drive out to El Portal. We have our trip in a couple of weeks to see the incredible snowfall and are considering using the EV for the first time since it's more convenient.

For those with Teslas, there are 8 superchargers at the Teneya Lodge in Fish Camp and 8 superchargers at the Yosemite View Lodge in El Portal.
Last edited by mervinj7 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by windaar »

harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by Valuethinker »

windaar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
EV should be cheaper to "fill er up".

What will happen over time is the number of gas stations will shrink. I would reckon that is already the case - due to higher mileage/ mpg of cars these days, and higher costs of labor etc. But it will start to become more noticeable.

Whereas hotels etc will start to have chargers as standard features. 99%+ of homes in North America have electricity? The grid already exists to allow (Level 1/2) charging most places.

I recognise this may not be the case now. And that North America is a big place, with long driving distances between urban areas. So adoption of EVs in those "places in between" may be quite slow.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:46 am
windaar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
EV should be cheaper to "fill er up".

What will happen over time is the number of gas stations will shrink. I would reckon that is already the case - due to higher mileage/ mpg of cars these days, and higher costs of labor etc. But it will start to become more noticeable.

Whereas hotels etc will start to have chargers as standard features. 99%+ of homes in North America have electricity? The grid already exists to allow (Level 1/2) charging most places.

I recognise this may not be the case now. And that North America is a big place, with long driving distances between urban areas. So adoption of EVs in those "places in between" may be quite slow.
Should be, but that isn't a given. You would be shocked what some public charging stations charge. As I noted earlier, in my area, it is usually >$.50/kWhr and some places charge $.70/kWhR at times.

I would assume that the "preferred" term comes from the overall driving experience; maybe their EV has a more comfortable ride, nicer appointed cabin, nicer seats or stereo, less road noise, etc. ? No matter how you spin it, having to stop every 150-350 miles to refuel for an extended period is not a feature. Sure you can make it less inconvenient by saying you need to go to the bathroom, stretch, or get a bite to eat, but you have the option to do that in an ICE as well.

There are still very long stretches of area in the U.S. where there are not options to charge and these are the areas where we generally are road tripping. We had one friend find this out the hard way. An EV commuter is in our near future, but we aren't giving up our Ford Maverick hybrid as the family road trip vehicle.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by toomanysidehustles »

Journeyman510 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:03 pm
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:58 pm
oxothuk wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:38 pm Have you gotten a quote from an electrician for what it would cost to install a 240v outlet in your garage? Ideally 50 amps, but even 20 amps would be a huge improvement over trickle charging.

If you are even considering a $50k Tesla, then don’t cheap out on the electric upgrade
The electricians are onto this, they know if you can afford a $50K-150K EV you can and will pay $3-5K to add a 50/60 amp circuit breaker and a 240V outlet. Maybe you'll find one who will do it at time and materials if you are lucky.

There are some interstates that have good coverage for charging, some do not. There are also some cities that have remarkably little charging infrastructure (e.g. Tucson comes to mind).

We use our gas car for long trips and the EV for local driving.
Agree I would not want to own one unless I had charging capacity at home.
Was 1k for me.
$750 for us, we have a panel in the garage though so pretty easy. If only electrical panel is in the basement, I can see that being a bit more costly.
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Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by neilpilot »

toomanysidehustles wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:16 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:03 pm
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:58 pm
oxothuk wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:38 pm Have you gotten a quote from an electrician for what it would cost to install a 240v outlet in your garage? Ideally 50 amps, but even 20 amps would be a huge improvement over trickle charging.

If you are even considering a $50k Tesla, then don’t cheap out on the electric upgrade
The electricians are onto this, they know if you can afford a $50K-150K EV you can and will pay $3-5K to add a 50/60 amp circuit breaker and a 240V outlet. Maybe you'll find one who will do it at time and materials if you are lucky.

There are some interstates that have good coverage for charging, some do not. There are also some cities that have remarkably little charging infrastructure (e.g. Tucson comes to mind).

We use our gas car for long trips and the EV for local driving.
Agree I would not want to own one unless I had charging capacity at home.
Was 1k for me.
$750 for us, we have a panel in the garage though so pretty easy. If only electrical panel is in the basement, I can see that being a bit more costly.
$81 for me to diy a UL listed 30amp toggle switch onto an existing dryer circuit adjacent to my garage.
mrb09
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:02 am

Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by mrb09 »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:27 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:46 am
windaar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
EV should be cheaper to "fill er up".

What will happen over time is the number of gas stations will shrink. I would reckon that is already the case - due to higher mileage/ mpg of cars these days, and higher costs of labor etc. But it will start to become more noticeable.

Whereas hotels etc will start to have chargers as standard features. 99%+ of homes in North America have electricity? The grid already exists to allow (Level 1/2) charging most places.

I recognise this may not be the case now. And that North America is a big place, with long driving distances between urban areas. So adoption of EVs in those "places in between" may be quite slow.
Should be, but that isn't a given. You would be shocked what some public charging stations charge. As I noted earlier, in my area, it is usually >$.50/kWhr and some places charge $.70/kWhR at times.

I would assume that the "preferred" term comes from the overall driving experience; maybe their EV has a more comfortable ride, nicer appointed cabin, nicer seats or stereo, less road noise, etc. ? No matter how you spin it, having to stop every 150-350 miles to refuel for an extended period is not a feature. Sure you can make it less inconvenient by saying you need to go to the bathroom, stretch, or get a bite to eat, but you have the option to do that in an ICE as well.

There are still very long stretches of area in the U.S. where there are not options to charge and these are the areas where we generally are road tripping. We had one friend find this out the hard way. An EV commuter is in our near future, but we aren't giving up our Ford Maverick hybrid as the family road trip vehicle.
I have a (non-Tesla) BEV, and I think that's fair. If you look at just the convenience of fueling/charging on a road trip, ICE wins. Most of our road trips are north-south on the west coast, which has a lot of charging stations, and I have a very fast charging car, so it is slightly inconvenient, but more than offset by the comfort of the BEV (especially road/engine noise) and convenience of around-town trips. So holistically I prefer the BEV, but if I looked just at the convenience of fueling on a road trip and nothing else, ICE wins.
oxothuk
Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:35 pm

Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by oxothuk »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:27 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:46 am
windaar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
EV should be cheaper to "fill er up".
Should be, but that isn't a given. You would be shocked what some public charging stations charge. As I noted earlier, in my area, it is usually >$.50/kWhr and some places charge $.70/kWhR at times.
Fast chargers (the kind you would use on a road trip) are a different animal from home chargers. They dispense DC current rather than AC, handle massive currents, and require additional cooling.

They are very expensive to build, and it's no surprise that they are more expensive than slow-charging at home.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by stoptothink »

oxothuk wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:48 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:27 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:46 am
windaar wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm
harikaried wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:14 amWe've taken both our Teslas with friends on 1500+ mile road trips as it was much preferred over driving ICE.
I’ve heard tortured (and unconvincing) arguments that an EV is “as good” as ICE for a road trip, but preferable? By what stretch? This assertion needs a LOT of explanation. I’ve done dozens of ICE lengthy road trips. You hit the accelerator and quickly fill up as needed at endlessly available gas stations. How can that be improved on?
EV should be cheaper to "fill er up".
Should be, but that isn't a given. You would be shocked what some public charging stations charge. As I noted earlier, in my area, it is usually >$.50/kWhr and some places charge $.70/kWhR at times.
Fast chargers (the kind you would use on a road trip) are a different animal from home chargers. They dispense DC current rather than AC, handle massive currents, and require additional cooling.

They are very expensive to build, and it's no surprise that they are more expensive than slow-charging at home.
Certainly, but that doesn't change the math. If you have to regularly use public charging, educate yourself on the costs.
smitcat
Posts: 13308
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Tesla (or EVs in general) - real-world inconveniences?

Post by smitcat »

toomanysidehustles wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:16 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:03 pm
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:58 pm
oxothuk wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:38 pm Have you gotten a quote from an electrician for what it would cost to install a 240v outlet in your garage? Ideally 50 amps, but even 20 amps would be a huge improvement over trickle charging.

If you are even considering a $50k Tesla, then don’t cheap out on the electric upgrade
The electricians are onto this, they know if you can afford a $50K-150K EV you can and will pay $3-5K to add a 50/60 amp circuit breaker and a 240V outlet. Maybe you'll find one who will do it at time and materials if you are lucky.

There are some interstates that have good coverage for charging, some do not. There are also some cities that have remarkably little charging infrastructure (e.g. Tucson comes to mind).

We use our gas car for long trips and the EV for local driving.
Agree I would not want to own one unless I had charging capacity at home.
Was 1k for me.
$750 for us, we have a panel in the garage though so pretty easy. If only electrical panel is in the basement, I can see that being a bit more costly.
Find out if your home insurance will require an inspection of the charger.
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