Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

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sailaway
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by sailaway »

Beensabu wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:30 am
kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm 1. What should I do with my 401k and $1.4M in cash after selling the stock if I decide to pull the trigger? What funds?
You need to sell most (if not all) of that stock. Pretty much now. And put it in whatever combo of Total US Market, Total International Market, Total Bond Market, and cash you feel comfortable with (as long as at least 30% is in the stock market).

I don't care that you got 80% of what you have by consistently taking the same risk that paid off. Good for you.

Now, do you want to keep what you have? Because your $1.75m could be $400k the next time you turn around. Sell it.
2. Does it look like we have enough?
Not quite enough to retire at 38, even once diversified. You already know that. The numbers are close. Almost. Nearly there, if you squidge the bits around and squint at it in a particular way. Right? If your spend was $30k/yr, then yeah. But it's not.

I think it's really important to understand what you do have right now, as long as you diversify away from that one stock. And that is the ability to be underemployed for the rest of your life and be fine. Not unemployed forevermore. Not early retired right now. But you have the ability to walk away from any job. That is huge. That is really a huge, huge, fantastic thing. If you want to use it to walk away from this job, then do.
You are suggesting a 1.7% withdrawal rate for a 40yo retiree?
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HomerJ
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HomerJ »

leeks wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:08 am If you hate your job, leave your job.

You don't actually have to decide if you are "retiring" or will look for another job. You can start looking for another job next month or next year or when the kids are in high school. But there is no need to stay at one that you hate, given that you have savings. Leaving that particular job is not a lifelong decision.
This.

You definitely have enough to just quit a job you hate. You may or may not have enough to retire, but you can certainly quit.

The real problem with retiring is that with young kids, your expenses are not really set yet, but will fluctuate year to year. Not only is 4% less certain with such a long retirement, your X in the 25x calculation is less certain too.

Someone who is 50 or 55 with the kids out of the house has a pretty good idea of what their ongoing expenses will be at 60 or 65. Someone with young kids has a lot of uncertainty still.
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8301
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by 8301 »

KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 am
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
8301,

It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.

Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?

It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.

KlangFool
Agree. OP is free to leave.
It is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
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HipCoyote
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HipCoyote »

Sure is a bummer to actually go into work rather than work from home...sorry, no sympathy from me here.

My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.

And taking a few years off is not such a hot idea either unless you have some very marketable skills. Skill sets can get outdated quickly.

I do not see how you can retire at your age given the nearly certain upcoming issues in life...healthcare, schooling and the inevitable life's happenings that suck up money. Will that money be enough for you when you are in retirement and need assistance in daily activities...as in eating, dressing, etc.? It happens. You do not have the money.

You have what you perceive to be a crappy job situation right now. Keep that job, go find a new job, start your own business, but retiring with that amount of money saved is a recipe for some pain down the road.
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HomerJ
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HomerJ »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Our portfolio is essentially my 401K and everything else on a single stock.
Oh... This is really bad. 4% DEFINITELY DOES NOT APPLY to a portfolio like that.

So far, the U.S. stock market has always come back from crashes and gone on to new heights...

Single stocks do not have that historical record.

It was very risky to have so much tied up in a single stock while working and accumulating. But it paid off, so awesome.

You definitely can't go into a 50 year retirement depending on a single stock to support you.

You are financially independent right now... Maybe not quite retirement, but very close, and definitely financially independent where you can quit this bad job today with no regrets. But only after you sell that TSLA stock and diversify.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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HomerJ
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HomerJ »

HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.
He's not going to be paying 20% in taxes.
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Beensabu
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Beensabu »

sailaway wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:34 am You are suggesting a 1.7% withdrawal rate for a 40yo retiree?
I'm saying that if their spend was low enough, it would be a no brainer. But they're working with numbers right at the margin of a 3.33% withdrawal rate and unanticipated expenses would push them over.
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KlangFool
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by KlangFool »

8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 am
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
8301,

It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.

Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?

It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.

KlangFool
Agree. OP is free to leave.
It is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
Time had changed. Folks had figured out that being present at the office is not necessary for many jobs. And, with the lack of the loyalty of the employer to employees, the brownie points do not buy anyone anything.

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cbox
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by cbox »

windaar wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:38 pm Time to leave this job and find a new one. Lots of them out there. You're too young to retire, especially with 2 kids to raise.
+1
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

For me personally, the maximum SWR is 4% at 65, maybe 3% at 55. At your age, probably 2%.
LOL are you making rules as you type on my thread :) ?
[/quote]

These are realistic numbers. 4% is for a 30 year retirement. Do you and your wife plan to be dead for sure at 68? If so, 4% is fine.

You have no guaranty that you will get dollar 1 as severance. Your focus should be unemployment benefits. Do 40 hours of work a week. Document, document, document. Act like a billable hours worker like a lawyer or private engineer. Say that today, you spend 3 hours doing such and such on priority #1 project. Write it in a notebook. Short description of the work you were doing and if it was assigned by someone above you, write that down. Continue all of this. If they pile 400 hours of work a week on you, do the priority stuff only and go home on time. This can become evidence if indeed they do fire you. Firing can't happen for no reason. They can lay you off. Big difference. Being laid off means you collect unemployment. Being fired unjustifiably means you get unemployment.

You should absolutely be looking for another job in your field. If you find something, you indeed could take it. If not, getting unemployment usually requires looking for a new job. That's fine. But you can very much limit the type of job and location where the job is.

If you have a $60k car, go to Car Max and trade it for a $30k car. This can be done independently from this mess.

I didn't see if your wife works. If she doesn't, she should look for a job. Even if it's a low pay one. Trader Joes provides group health insurance for only 14 hours of part time work. This will be cheaper than non-group rates.

I've put in for retirement in June but I'm 66 with 55 times spending while ignoring social security. In 30 years, I'll be dead for sure, so my plan works well.
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greg24
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by greg24 »

8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 amIt is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
Some of us have skills that give us options on where we choose to work. Some of us are forced to commute to a job they hate for decades. Some of us love going into the office and working 60 hours a week for a corporation.

Don't get mad at those who have different options.
RANkiDEr
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by RANkiDEr »

I started reading this thinking you were like 61 or 62 years old.
You've got many years left in your career.
I'd start looking for a new job.
I might also recommend a career counselor who can help you navigate your current work situation.
MattB
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by MattB »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:27 pm
rob wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:16 pm I don't see any way this works to be honest....
So Bogleheads don't use the 4% SWR?
I wouldn't advise doing so with two kids, 7 and 4, and a possible 60 year retirement.
JoeNJ28
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by JoeNJ28 »

8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 am
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
8301,

It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.

Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?

It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.

KlangFool
Agree. OP is free to leave.
It is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
I can do my job entirely remote with no issues and am more productive because I don’t have to deal with people bothering me. Not sure why remote work is seen as not showing up but wanting to get paid. You are still working.
stoptothink
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by stoptothink »

JoeNJ28 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:57 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 am
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
8301,

It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.

Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?

It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.

KlangFool
Agree. OP is free to leave.
It is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
I can do my job entirely remote with no issues and am more productive because I don’t have to deal with people bothering me. Not sure why remote work is seen as not showing up but wanting to get paid. You are still working.
As can I, and because I have a long track-record of being productive regardless of where I am located, I am offered that level of autonomy (98% of staff at my employer was asked to come back to the office fall '21). WFH just isn't an ideally productive situation for some people; I found this out the hard way as I was directing a large team when the pandemic hit. I am not saying this is the case for OP, just in general.

As some others have alluded to, I'm not sure why OP is looking at this so black-and-white. There are far more options than to stick out a job they hate or retire. As someone in a similar situation (we are similar in age and NW, but we both work and make several times OP's HHI), I'd bring the concerns straight to the top (being they laid almost everybody else off, there must be a reason OP was kept and also a reason their co-worker can work from home, but they aren't allowed to) and be spending quite a bit of time looking for other opportunities because it's unlikely they'll get what they want from current employer. IMO, it's possible OP could be fine financially retiring now, but the risk is WAY too high for me.
investor_power
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by investor_power »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Things are getting difficult at work and I am feeling like pulling the plug and retire but I do not feel ready because everything changed in last 2 weeks. My company eliminated 10 people in a team 12 and I now have a crazy work load and I am being forced to go back to the office which I am not a fun off after really enjoying working from home for a few years after Covid. I am 38 and my wife 39 and we have two kids 7 and 4.

Our portfolio is essentially my 401K and everything else on a single stock.

Assets:
House: $330K
Cars: $80k

Emergency funds: $12k

Debt: $124k @ 3.5%

Tax Filing Status: Married

Tax Rate: 12% Federal, 7% State

State of Residence: South Carolina

Age: 38 and 39

Total Portfolio: $1.75M

Taxable
$270k

His 401K:
$284k
81% Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX)
10% Fidelity International Index (FSPSX)
9% Vanguard International Growth Admiral (VWILX)
Company match? 4%

His Roth IRA at E-trade
$190k

Traditional IRA at E-trade
$400k

Her Roth IRA at E-trade
$70k

Her Roll-Over IRA at E-trade
$300k

Her Traditional IRA at E-trade
$230k


Contributions

New annual Contributions
$8000 his 401k (also specify any employer matching contributions)

We have been tracking our expense and using a case study excel sheet from MMM all our expenses come out to $53,356 using Obamacare for the healthcare. I currently make $2700 bi-weekly and wife has side jobs here and there in which she makes $1200 a month from time to time. I think being able to pull out $65,000-60,000 would be great and as needed we can lower our needs.

I can sell the stock at any time and it would not be subject to any taxes.

Questions:

1. What should I do with my 401k and $1.4M in cash after selling the stock if I decide to pull the trigger? What funds?
2. Does it look like we have enough?
3. Should I start roll overs ASAP? or try to wait until next year when I should have lower income. I don't have enough for 5 years of expenses in my after tax.
4. I will probably speak to my employer to get a layoff to be able to use the severance to repay the debt around $30k I assume. I can also sell one of the cars that should wipe out $60k of the debt. I made a bad decision and bought an expensive car when the market was at AH and my portfolio was worth a lot more.

Thanks
Lol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
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greg24
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by greg24 »

investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
Firemenot
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Firemenot »

You’ve created a false binary choice — (i) keep working my current job which I hate or (ii) retire (which implies permanently). You have a world of choice between the two — including other work (full-time or part-time, whether in your field or not), a “sabbatical” to recharge your batteries and get some time to think about what comes next, a negotiated severance, retraining for a new potential profession, etc.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by quantAndHold »

greg24 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:34 pm
investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
OP’s anger does seem to be most focused on the fact that some others at the company are still able to work from home, and he isn’t.

Anyway, yeah, it’s probably time to leave this company. But there’s a wide range of possibilities that exist in between staying at a terrible job and quitting forever, undercapitalized, in your 30’s with young kids at home.
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HipCoyote
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HipCoyote »

HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.
He's not going to be paying 20% in taxes.
Homer, I missed one thing as pointed out by others: at his age, he cannot take funds out of those tax deferred accounts without a penalty. Do you think he will be taxed more or less? Am I too high or two low?
sailaway
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by sailaway »

HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.
He's not going to be paying 20% in taxes.
Homer, I missed one thing as pointed out by others: at his age, he cannot take funds out of those tax deferred accounts without a penalty. Do you think he will be taxed more or less? Am I too high or two low?
Replace with "needs to do some planning to access funds in tax deferred without a penalty." OP can easily stay within the current 12% bracket, with a much lower effective rate using a Roth conversion ladder. If they choose SEPP, they could lower the tax bill even more by splitting the difference between the tax deferred and the taxable and Roth contributions, rather than depleting those over the next five years.
Big Dog
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Big Dog »

greg24 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:34 pm
investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
Why should there be any anger directed towards the company? They decided that most of what that 12 person team used to do is no longer needed. It may be a poor business decision, but that was the decision. I've been the survivor of a Dept of 30 which was cut to 8, and we just spent a few weeks brainstorming of all the former work duties that were must-dos vs nice-to-haves. The latter were eliminated immediately. No harm no foul. Other duties got dropped to lowest priority and were also eliminated.

But agree with the others: if OP wants a WFH job, time to start looking.
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HomerJ
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HomerJ »

sailaway wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:05 pm
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.
He's not going to be paying 20% in taxes.
Homer, I missed one thing as pointed out by others: at his age, he cannot take funds out of those tax deferred accounts without a penalty. Do you think he will be taxed more or less? Am I too high or two low?
Replace with "needs to do some planning to access funds in tax deferred without a penalty." OP can easily stay within the current 12% bracket, with a much lower effective rate using a Roth conversion ladder. If they choose SEPP, they could lower the tax bill even more by splitting the difference between the tax deferred and the taxable and Roth contributions, rather than depleting those over the next five years.
This. He can use the SEPP method.. And he can spend some of the taxable account each year to keep his "income" fairly low, which means his tax rate will be far lower than 20%.
"The IRS allows penalty-free withdrawals before age 59½ for Special Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP). Under these plans, you may take a regular annual distribution for five years or until you reach 59½, whichever comes later.

So if you begin the payments at age 58, they would end when you are 63. If you begin distributions at age 45, you would continue to receive them each year for 14 years until you hit 59½. Ending the arrangement early results in you paying the 10% penalty for all of the money withdrawn.

The amount of the yearly distributions must be determined by one of three IRS approved methods and can be complicated to calculate. You'll likely need the help of a financial or tax professional."
See, if you pull $40,000 from an IRA, and spend $30,000 from your bank account, you are only taxed as someone making $40,000.. The money you spend from a bank account or a taxable brokerage account is not "income". It's just your money. Now if your taxable account has capital gains (which he does), he can will need to play the game and keep his "income" under $83,000, so in order to owe 0% in capital gains.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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HipCoyote
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HipCoyote »

HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:09 pm
sailaway wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:05 pm
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
HipCoyote wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:46 am My quick calc is that $1.2 million (ish) is in pre-tax money...so depending on how much you take out that 1.2 is not 1.2. Cut at least 20% or more off that...you do not have enough to retire.
He's not going to be paying 20% in taxes.
Homer, I missed one thing as pointed out by others: at his age, he cannot take funds out of those tax deferred accounts without a penalty. Do you think he will be taxed more or less? Am I too high or two low?
Replace with "needs to do some planning to access funds in tax deferred without a penalty." OP can easily stay within the current 12% bracket, with a much lower effective rate using a Roth conversion ladder. If they choose SEPP, they could lower the tax bill even more by splitting the difference between the tax deferred and the taxable and Roth contributions, rather than depleting those over the next five years.
This. He can use the SEPP method.. And he can spend some of the taxable account each year to keep his "income" fairly low, which means his tax rate will be far lower than 20%.
"The IRS allows penalty-free withdrawals before age 59½ for Special Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP). Under these plans, you may take a regular annual distribution for five years or until you reach 59½, whichever comes later.

So if you begin the payments at age 58, they would end when you are 63. If you begin distributions at age 45, you would continue to receive them each year for 14 years until you hit 59½. Ending the arrangement early results in you paying the 10% penalty for all of the money withdrawn.

The amount of the yearly distributions must be determined by one of three IRS approved methods and can be complicated to calculate. You'll likely need the help of a financial or tax professional."
See, if you pull $40,000 from an IRA, and spend $30,000 from your bank account, you are only taxed as someone making $40,000.. The money you spend from a bank account or a taxable brokerage account is not "income". It's just your money. Now if your taxable account has capital gains (which he does), he can will need to play the game and keep his "income" under $83,000, so in order to owe 0% in capital gains.
Got it...thanks for the info.
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kchico
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by kchico »

quantAndHold wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:48 pm
greg24 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:34 pm
investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
OP’s anger does seem to be most focused on the fact that some others at the company are still able to work from home, and he isn’t.

Anyway, yeah, it’s probably time to leave this company. But there’s a wide range of possibilities that exist in between staying at a terrible job and quitting forever, undercapitalized, in your 30’s with young kids at home.
Maybe I was not clear. My company decided to fired the people that were working at the office and some remote workers; they kept two people that were working remote. I live close to the factory and I am being asked to go to the office but my coworker works at a different state so he is obviously will stay remote. We have one contractor that is local and I just found out that somedays he is working from home and only coming when needed. I was going in the office if I need to see something from time to time but not often and I ask why I cannot keep doing this and they we want to see you here... [Profanity removed - moderator ClaycordJCA]. It just seems like a power move; I don't get it. I have my 1:1 with my new boss and I told on the last meeting that I would like to keep working from home if not they can lay me off. We shall see what happens. I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.
investor_power
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by investor_power »

kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:36 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:48 pm
greg24 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:34 pm
investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
OP’s anger does seem to be most focused on the fact that some others at the company are still able to work from home, and he isn’t.

Anyway, yeah, it’s probably time to leave this company. But there’s a wide range of possibilities that exist in between staying at a terrible job and quitting forever, undercapitalized, in your 30’s with young kids at home.
Maybe I was not clear. My company decided to fired the people that were working at the office and some remote workers; they kept two people that were working remote. I live close to the factory and I am being asked to go to the office but my coworker works at a different state so he is obviously will stay remote. We have one contractor that is local and I just found out that somedays he is working from home and only coming when needed. I was going in the office if I need to see something from time to time but not often and I ask why I cannot keep doing this and they we want to see you here... [Profanity removed - moderator ClaycordJCA]. It just seems like a power move; I don't get it. I have my 1:1 with my new boss and I told on the last meeting that I would like to keep working from home if not they can lay me off. We shall see what happens. I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.
They can also fire you for cause (refusal to come to work). The United States is a work at will country and the employer does not need to give a severance package when firing.
Gronnie
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Gronnie »

JoeNJ28 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:57 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 am
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
8301,

It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.

Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?

It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.

KlangFool
Agree. OP is free to leave.
It is funny. Work life balance used to be an adequate amount of time off with a flexible work schedule within reasonable bounds. Now, they demand not even to show up to a workplace and getting paid.
I can do my job entirely remote with no issues and am more productive because I don’t have to deal with people bothering me. Not sure why remote work is seen as not showing up but wanting to get paid. You are still working.
In fact, people often work even more when remote as it's hard to separate work and home.

Just because a few bad apples don't do anything doesn't mean all remote work is bad. How about you just identify those people and get rid of them? It's not like there aren't people that pretend to work all day in the office too.
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kchico
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by kchico »

investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:49 pm
kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:36 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:48 pm
greg24 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:34 pm
investor_power wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:23 pmLol you want to quit work because your employer is asking you to come back to work? Employees these days....
It is truly amazing how many posters willfully ignore the fact that 83% of the department was laid off, and focus their anger on WFH.

The anger should be directed at the company.
OP’s anger does seem to be most focused on the fact that some others at the company are still able to work from home, and he isn’t.

Anyway, yeah, it’s probably time to leave this company. But there’s a wide range of possibilities that exist in between staying at a terrible job and quitting forever, undercapitalized, in your 30’s with young kids at home.
Maybe I was not clear. My company decided to fired the people that were working at the office and some remote workers; they kept two people that were working remote. I live close to the factory and I am being asked to go to the office but my coworker works at a different state so he is obviously will stay remote. We have one contractor that is local and I just found out that somedays he is working from home and only coming when needed. I was going in the office if I need to see something from time to time but not often and I ask why I cannot keep doing this and they we want to see you here... [Profanity removed. --moderator Kendall]. It just seems like a power move; I don't get it. I have my 1:1 with my new boss and I told on the last meeting that I would like to keep working from home if not they can lay me off. We shall see what happens. I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.
They can also fire you for cause (refusal to come to work). The United States is a work at will country and the employer does not need to give a severance package when firing.
I understand and I really don't care.
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HomerJ
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HomerJ »

kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:36 pmIt just seems like a power move; I don't get it. I have my 1:1 with my new boss and I told on the last meeting that I would like to keep working from home if not they can lay me off. We shall see what happens. I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.
It is a power move... And you made a power move right back. I bet it feels good.

I did the same thing a year or two back. They wanted me to do something, I said No, that's not going to happen, and it didn't happen.

I was prepared for them to let me go, and not worried because I had enough money.

That is where you are. You are in a position of strength. Even if they let you go, you win.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Misenplace »

A disrespectful post (and quoting replies), and a trolling post, have been removed. Please stay on topic, which is helping OP decide his next steps, and forget the side comments.

Moderator Misenplace
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HipCoyote
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by HipCoyote »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Things are getting difficult at work and I am feeling like pulling the plug and retire but I do not feel ready because everything changed in last 2 weeks. My company eliminated 10 people in a team 12 and I now have a crazy work load and I am being forced to go back to the office which I am not a fun off after really enjoying working from home for a few years after Covid. I am 38 and my wife 39 and we have two kids 7 and 4.

Our portfolio is essentially my 401K and everything else on a single stock.

Assets:
House: $330K
Cars: $80k

Emergency funds: $12k

Debt: $124k @ 3.5%

Tax Filing Status: Married

Tax Rate: 12% Federal, 7% State

State of Residence: South Carolina

Age: 38 and 39

Total Portfolio: $1.75M

Taxable
$270k

His 401K:
$284k
81% Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX)
10% Fidelity International Index (FSPSX)
9% Vanguard International Growth Admiral (VWILX)
Company match? 4%

His Roth IRA at E-trade
$190k

Traditional IRA at E-trade
$400k

Her Roth IRA at E-trade
$70k

Her Roll-Over IRA at E-trade
$300k

Her Traditional IRA at E-trade
$230k


Contributions

New annual Contributions
$8000 his 401k (also specify any employer matching contributions)

We have been tracking our expense and using a case study excel sheet from MMM all our expenses come out to $53,356 using Obamacare for the healthcare. I currently make $2700 bi-weekly and wife has side jobs here and there in which she makes $1200 a month from time to time. I think being able to pull out $65,000-60,000 would be great and as needed we can lower our needs.

I can sell the stock at any time and it would not be subject to any taxes.

Questions:

1. What should I do with my 401k and $1.4M in cash after selling the stock if I decide to pull the trigger? What funds?
2. Does it look like we have enough?
3. Should I start roll overs ASAP? or try to wait until next year when I should have lower income. I don't have enough for 5 years of expenses in my after tax.
4. I will probably speak to my employer to get a layoff to be able to use the severance to repay the debt around $30k I assume. I can also sell one of the cars that should wipe out $60k of the debt. I made a bad decision and bought an expensive car when the market was at AH and my portfolio was worth a lot more.

Thanks
I know there have been a lot of financial issues discussed on this thread. One thing that might help you is this: I have a friend who does career counseling. (He made big money in commercial real estate and hated every minute of it. Now he happily does this.) Helping people find their true direction in professions. What do they want to do, what fulfills them, etc. You are in a situation where you are upset at the company and even considering retiring at a very young age. (I retired at 56 and wish I would have waited a bit.) Please consider finding a career counselor to help you plot a professional course, be it retirement, a new job, a new career, staying at the old job and trying to reconfigure it in someway, or perhaps starting a business. It might be worth your while.

Best of luck in the future.
Johny Fever
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by Johny Fever »

I guess my old school thinking is this...find a new job that you like that will support what you want to make and just move on. Dont be mad at your present employer as who knows what behind all of this. I cant relate to being able to work from home as none of us in my family have jobs like that...we fix cars, human beings, teach little kids, build homes, things like that...but..I get it...with a small family like yours I would not be able to sleep at night without having a plan in place, but thats jist me. The whole financial end of things I got nothing...but basically like is too short to miserable. Find a new gig and move on. Dont burn bridges but do it...
crazygrow
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by crazygrow »


I already told them no but I would like to get my severance instead of getting fired. I have been working at this place for 10 years and I would like to walk away with what I think I deserve. South Carolina is right to work state so yeah they can fired at any moment.
If you’ve received every paycheck you got what you deserve! Severance is not an earned or deserved thing. That way of thinking will quickly poison you against any employer. Maybe be self employed.
exodusNH
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by exodusNH »

kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:36 pm I have my 1:1 with my new boss and I told on the last meeting that I would like to keep working from home if not they can lay me off. We shall see what happens. I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.
I don't think you're being unreasonable with wanting to work from home. I also don't think that your boss is being unreasonable wanting people in the office. (I do disagree with them, but I don't think it's unreasonable.)

But note that refusing to return to the office would be treated as a "for-cause" termination. As discussed, absent an employment contract, severance is not a guarantee. But further, with a for-cause termination, you probably won't qualify for unemployment.

Knowing that, I would suggest trying to negotiate full-time WFH and compromising on one or two days, the latter being a short-term plan while you find another place to work. It's always easier to find a new job while you're employed. But perhaps after a couple of months, once your new boss has settled in, it won't be a problem.

Leaving the workforce permanently at 39 is going to severely compromise your Social Security payout. You don't currently have enough to be retired for 50-60 years since you have no idea what your expenses will be like in 15-20 years.
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TinyHouse
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by TinyHouse »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Things are getting difficult at work and I am feeling like pulling the plug and retire but I do not feel ready because everything changed in last 2 weeks.

2. Does it look like we have enough?
Yes, you can retire. Your numbers are solid. Don’t let others say otherwise. But stay open to going back to work at some point. Take some time to recharge, enjoy your time with family, try to keep your skills fresh and your network fresh. Who knows, you may go back to work in a couple years.

Don’t sell your stock to cash. Stay in the market. Check out “go curry cracker never pay tax again”. He’ll discuss the “Roth conversion ladder” that you’ll need.

Check out ERN SWR series. Start here: https://earlyretirementnow.com/2023/03/ ... s-of-fire/

Check out this topic where I talk about ERN’s toolbox (dynamic withdraws), you should plug your numbers in: viewtopic.php?t=400060

FWIW, this form is exceptionally conservative, and you won’t hear much in the way of encouraging 30 Somethings to retire.

I was in a similar spot as you, and I have almost the exact same numbers and ages as you guys. I landed another remote gig and it’s going great, left the previous toxic place. Gives me some padding and time to think about what’s next, and also fund a couple things we are trying to do. But there’s no doubt about it in my mind, we are financially independent, no need to work.

Enjoy your financial independence!
AlwaysLearningMore
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by AlwaysLearningMore »

HomerJ wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:07 pm .... Even if they let you go, you win.
Really? OP may need to consider health care coverage. If not supplied by working spouse, and is secured through OP's workplace, then that certainly factors into the decision. With spouse and young kids, it's a definite issue to consider. (If health coverage was already covered upthread, sorry for repeat.)
Retirement is best when you have a lot to live on, and a lot to live for. * None of what I post is investment advice.* | FIRE'd July 2023
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quantAndHold
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by quantAndHold »

OP, I don’t see that this has been asked. What does your wife think of the idea?

If I were raising two young kids, and hubby came home proposing that he quit work and we could live for the rest of our lives on 30% less than the small amount we live on now…I would not be happy.
mark_in_denver
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by mark_in_denver »

I've been back in the office since 2021.

During my career there's been times I wanted to retire/quit. But I didn't, and things reverted to the mean. Retiring in haste at this age isn't the answer imo.

You can go through the numbers and try and formulate whatever works out for you, but I'd wait it out and rethink this in six months.
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rob
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by rob »

Beensabu wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:54 am
sailaway wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:34 am You are suggesting a 1.7% withdrawal rate for a 40yo retiree?
I'm saying that if their spend was low enough, it would be a no brainer. But they're working with numbers right at the margin of a 3.33% withdrawal rate and unanticipated expenses would push them over.
.... and with young kids - there is nothing BUT unanticipated expenses.... They get MORE expensive as they get older not less. Seems to also be assuming they can get "free-ish" ($100) healthcare for life - I would not make that bet in the US.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
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MrBobcat
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by MrBobcat »

bloom2708 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:23 am Spiff up the resume.

Find a new job, closer to home. It happens.

The OP and family can do it. Read up on www.rootofgood.com.

Family of 5, mid 30s. Retired on a budget of $3k per month. It can be done, but most are not willing to do what their family does.
I've lived on that budget, mid 30s but at the time it was a pay check to pay check type of thing.
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MrBobcat
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by MrBobcat »

quantAndHold wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:29 pm OP, I don’t see that this has been asked. What does your wife think of the idea?

If I were raising two young kids, and hubby came home proposing that he quit work and we could live for the rest of our lives on 30% less than the small amount we live on now…I would not be happy.
lmao, you sound like my wife... totally understandable take though.
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vanguarded
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by vanguarded »

kchico wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Things are getting difficult at work and I am feeling like pulling the plug and retire but I do not feel ready because everything changed in last 2 weeks. My company eliminated 10 people in a team 12 and I now have a crazy work load and I am being forced to go back to the office which I am not a fun off after really enjoying working from home for a few years after Covid. I am 38 and my wife 39 and we have two kids 7 and 4.

This does not seem like a good idea at your age and with 2 young kids. I am 50 with no children and would still just find another job if the current one stunk like this.

Plus you are also going to put a dent in the social security credits they use for payment calculations when your prime earning years 45-55 give or take are all zeros... If your portfolio was actually 10M I would say sure go for it even then not sure what I would be doing for possibly 50 years not working.
Simple 3 Fund: 60% VTSAX 20% VTIAX 20% VBTLX
BlueyDivine
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by BlueyDivine »

I don’t agree on the need to remain a wage slave to teach your kids to be good workers when they get older. If you have enough to walk away, then by all means do it.

That said, I think you need to think very carefully, especially given the kid situation. You don’t have much margin for their expenses: music lessons, tutoring, sports, travel. You will have to be ready to say no to a lot of things! At this stage you cannot envisage this aspect in full, but it will become important. And that is assuming no major unexpected health challenges.

By all means quit the job. But I would do something-even part time -to build a margin of safety and ensure a more acceptable standard of living.
KlangFool
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

It is very simple.

A) Sell your TSLA stock and diversify. If it drops another 50% or 80%, your leverage is gone.

B) You do not need this job. If the work life balance is not good enough, quit and find something else.

C) Your portfolio is so big that the severance pay would be a round off error. Why put up with all those pain and suffering for such a small amount of money?

D) You are being penny wise and pound foolish. What is 70K aka up to 1 year of severance pay really worth to you? It is a very small amount of money.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Topic Author
kchico
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by kchico »

[Quotations from removed off-topic posts have been deleted - moderator ClaycordJCA.]

My yearly pay is $110k and my actual take home is $70k.

My wife is PHD and she also got burn out before Covid doing research at the University and decided to stay home with the kids during Covid. She does consulting work here and there for a few hours so if we get in trouble we should be able to generate some income. I would even be willing to take a some pay cut to be able to stay working from home but I doubt they would go for it. We shall see what they say tomorrow.
AlwaysLearningMore
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by AlwaysLearningMore »

BlueyDivine wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:53 pm I don’t agree on the need to remain a wage slave to teach your kids to be good workers when they get older....
True. There's also the possibility of the children learning the level of frugality that might be required for OP to retire -- and has been pointed out, the cost of raising kids tends to increase, not decrease. Has OP fully funded 529 plans?

vanguarded wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:51 pm Plus you are also going to put a dent in the social security credits they use for payment calculations when your prime earning years 45-55 give or take are all zeros....
Very important point, with obviously long-term repercussions. Especially if OP predeceases his wife and happens to have been the higher earner.
Retirement is best when you have a lot to live on, and a lot to live for. * None of what I post is investment advice.* | FIRE'd July 2023
OldSport
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by OldSport »

[Quotations from removed off-topic posts have been deleted - Moderator ClaycordJCA]
kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:43 pm
My yearly pay is $110k and my actual take home is $70k.

My wife is PHD and she also got burn out before Covid doing research at the University and decided to stay home with the kids during Covid. She does consulting work here and there for a few hours so if we get in trouble we should be able to generate some income. I would even be willing to take a some pay cut to be able to stay working from home but I doubt they would go for it. We shall see what they say tomorrow.
$70k take home seems low for $110k pretax. How did you get to $1.7M? That is extremely impressive.

In that case, I'd have compromised with management, maybe trying to split the difference with 2 day/week in the office vs. full WFH and try to negotiate some raise since it's a much smaller team.

You are at barebones Lean FIRE if you have a well diversified mix, but not a single stock. But Barista FIRE and especially FAT FIRE are so much better.

You may ultimately need a sabbatical and a new job, if they come back hard noses. You have options. But if they say "no", please consider negotiating hybrid WFH/office and a raise before calling it quits.
student
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by student »

OldSport wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 pm
kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:43 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:21 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:08 pm
KlangFool wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:40 pm

Then, what is the problem? Just outsource and offshore to India.

In my industry, anything that can be outsourced or off shored had been done. It is not anything new anymore. The fun part is many of the executives are off shored too. Their times had came.

KlangFool
How much would they pay in US for the jobs being paid $60k to $80k in India?
OP are being paid 70K per year.

KlangFool
My yearly pay is $110k and my actual take home is $70k.

My wife is PHD and she also got burn out before Covid doing research at the University and decided to stay home with the kids during Covid. She does consulting work here and there for a few hours so if we get in trouble we should be able to generate some income. I would even be willing to take a some pay cut to be able to stay working from home but I doubt they would go for it. We shall see what they say tomorrow.
$70k take home seems low for $110k pretax. How did you get to $1.7M? That is extremely impressive.

In that case, I'd have compromised with management, maybe trying to split the difference with 2 day/week in the office vs. full WFH and try to negotiate some raise since it's a much smaller team.

You are at barebones Lean FIRE if you have a well diversified mix, but not a single stock. But Barista FIRE and especially FAT FIRE are so much better.

You may ultimately need a sabbatical and a new job, if they come back hard noses. You have options. But if they say "no", please consider negotiating hybrid WFH/office and a raise before calling it quits.
I think someone upthread mentioned Tesla.
PoorHomieQuan wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:45 pm
OldSport wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:07 pm OP has >$1.7M with a $70-80k salary. WOW. That is impressive.
All of that is in a single stock. I'm guessing the ticker may be TSLA.

edit: yup, this from the user's post history:
Tesla is an amazing company. Options are no for everyone like my parents probably at this time but during the accumulation phase putting a small percentage on derivatives can do wonders for your portfolio. For instance my IRA had total contributions of $11k but today's balance even after this horrible market is $280k.
So not just TSLA but TSLA calls.
lws
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by lws »

OP,

Congratulations to the household for saving well so far.
Being stressed at work is not healthy.
Contemplate a bit more before you leap.
Many good options have been mentioned in this conversation.
Good luck.
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DeliberateDonkey
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.

Post by DeliberateDonkey »

kchico wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:43 pm We shall see what they say tomorrow.
Good luck, OP. Hope the naysayers haven't gotten to you. Every employee is worth more than they're paid, unless their employer is running some kind of charity.
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