Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

Once when I was doing a heavy squat and deadlift I ended up....well... yeah.....I won’t finish that!!!!

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
stevedub
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:53 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by stevedub »

Wouldn't label myself that way, i also Olympic lift and bodybuild, but at a bw 180 I DL 450, squat 385 and bench 285. Also snatch 215 and clean and jerk 285.

I strongly believe in weight training to maintain health. Injury is a risk but injury for people who have weak muscles happens all the time - think of how many friends you have who hurt themselves getting out of bed or falling etc. I'm "only" 43 but plan weights and fitness to be part of my life as long as my body allows.
KneeReplacementTutor
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by KneeReplacementTutor »

Anyone ever use the type of periodization illustrated in this book http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf to increase their strength in the Back Squat, Deadlift and Bench Press? If so, what strategies did you implement to avoid progressive overtraining?
User avatar
Topic Author
corn18
Posts: 2867
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:24 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by corn18 »

KneeReplacementTutor wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm Anyone ever use the type of periodization illustrated in this book http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf to increase their strength in the Back Squat, Deadlift and Bench Press? If so, what strategies did you implement to avoid progressive overtraining?
I use Wendler's 5/3/1 to increase strength. It's simple.
Consistently sets low goals and fails to achieve them.
KneeReplacementTutor
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by KneeReplacementTutor »

corn18 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 5:30 pm
KneeReplacementTutor wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm Anyone ever use the type of periodization illustrated in this book http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf to increase their strength in the Back Squat, Deadlift and Bench Press? If so, what strategies did you implement to avoid progressive overtraining?
I use Wendler's 5/3/1 to increase strength. It's simple.
Cool. Thanks for the reply. I'll have to check it out.
User avatar
tc101
Posts: 3810
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Atlanta - Retired in 2004 at age 54

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by tc101 »

I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
. | The most important thing you should know about me is that I am not an expert.
ScubaHogg
Posts: 3573
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by ScubaHogg »

tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
As far as research this book cites a lot of studies. May be what you are looking for

*the author is a retired ER Doc/medical researcher who now coaches strength training full time

https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescrip ... 0982522770
“Conventional Treasury rates are risk free only in the sense that they guarantee nominal principal. But their real rate of return is uncertain until after the fact.” -Risk Less and Prosper
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by stoptothink »

tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
The fundamental principle of strength training is known as "progressive overload". No, you do not have to actually experience pain, but you have to give your musculoskeletal and nervous systems an impetus to change; whether that be a greater load, more volume, or more intensity. In general, powerlifting does not involve a lot of "pain" (DOMS) because training does not require a ton of time under tension. Developing maximal strength/power and maximal hypertrophy are two different endeavors. Similarly, increasing cardiovascular endurance doesn't necessarily have to hurt. You'll be doing a lot of zone 2 (moderate intensity) activity, but there are times when you'll want to push it.

Overall, it really depends on your goals and your timetable.

Here is some related research:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 19-01241-3
hudson
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by hudson »

tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
I'm 75. I do 4-5 hikes or mountain bikes a week. I average about 3.5 body weight/stretching sessions a week.
Currently many of my stretches/exercises are rehabs for injuries or issues. (abdominal separation, flexibility, snapping hip, pulled calf, balance, and getting off the floor, etc.)

Experience pain? I vote no...especially in our age category. I can tell when I've gone far enough. When is that? When I'm one or two reps away from pain maybe.

Bottom Line: I keep showing up and staying away from over-doing it. With few exceptions, I don't repeat the same exercise two days in a row. I never hike or mountain bike 3 days in a row.
User avatar
tc101
Posts: 3810
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Atlanta - Retired in 2004 at age 54

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by tc101 »

I don't repeat the same exercise two days in a row.


Same here so far as strength training goes, but I do ride by exercise bike more often for aerobic benefit.

One exception is the plank. I read something titles "I Did 2-Minute Plank Every Day for 42 Days — Here’s What Happened" and I am still thinking about it. Maybe will start doing plank 4-5 days a week.

https://betterhumans.pub/what-happens-i ... 88767fad69
. | The most important thing you should know about me is that I am not an expert.
User avatar
watchnerd
Posts: 13614
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:18 am
Location: Gig Harbor, WA, USA

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by watchnerd »

I'm a weightlifter, rather than a powerlifter, which means squat and deadlift (well, clean pulls and snatch pulls, actually) are used to build strength, rather than being competition lifts. And in weightlifting, we rarely bench -- overhead press and push press are our main pressing lift.

I have competition coming up in mid-May. I'll compete in either the <102 kg or <109 kg weight class, depending on where my lifts are at vs the competition and how deep I want to cut.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
muffins14
Posts: 5528
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:14 am
Location: New York

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by muffins14 »

I used to be stronger… maybe at 25-28

Bench: 235 X 5
Squat: 305x 5
Deadlift: 335 x 5

Now, nope

I’m curious what you all would recommend doing to “get back into it” at 37

I can probably:
Bench: 135
Squat: 185
Deadlift: 195

I’ve been doing StrongLifts, like an A/B/A workout that has me squatting each time
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
hudson
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by hudson »

tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:08 pm
I don't repeat the same exercise two days in a row.


Same here so far as strength training goes, but I do ride by exercise bike more often for aerobic benefit.

One exception is the plank. I read something titles "I Did 2-Minute Plank Every Day for 42 Days — Here’s What Happened" and I am still thinking about it. Maybe will start doing plank 4-5 days a week.

https://betterhumans.pub/what-happens-i ... 88767fad69
I did planks for years; I recently stopped because it worsened one of my issues otherwise I'd keep doing them forever.
I'd only do 30 seconds worth. I don't see planks as anything magical. As soon as the issue gets better, I'll go back. I can't do a plank with open palms as it causes wrist pain; I do them on balled fists.
User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 13114
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by whodidntante »

I also followed Stronglifts 5x5 for a while. I gained a lot of strength quickly. In one's 70's, you probably can't add 5 lbs per workout very long. However, you probably can for a while due to becoming more proficient at the movements. You might not be able to perform the lifts at all. The squat involves quite a bit of ankle, knee, and hip mobility, for example. And you need to be capable of performing the movement without falling or otherwise hurting yourself. You can try. My rule is that I do the lifts properly, or not at all.

Compound movements like the power lifts are quite a time-efficient workout and should help keep the muscle you have. The power lifts are less technical than the Olympic lifts. It's also easier to find a gym that allows power lifts. I have seen (and there are records of) people in their 70's competing at a meet. It's rare to see older powerlifters but they are out there.

Powerlifting should not involve pain. If you train 3x per week consistently, you will get DOMS for perhaps the first two weeks until your body adapts, then that should stop. Joint pain isn't supposed to happen from these movements.

Here's the program we are talking about. I follow a modified version of this program now that is more intended for maintenance and general health. I am not interested in competing any longer and I'd be happy to keep the muscle I currently have. Do note that deadlifts involve only one work set. If you do five sets of heavy deadlifts in a single workout, that is too much, in my opinion.
https://stronglifts.com/5x5/
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

ScubaHogg wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:40 am
tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
As far as research this book cites a lot of studies. May be what you are looking for

*the author is a retired ER Doc/medical researcher who now coaches strength training full time

https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescrip ... 0982522770
The half of the book that explains the benefits of strength training is great. The half on programming is not very good and is not consistent with most modern programming. It over-emphasizes high intensity. Of course, nothing works or doesn't work for everyone.
User avatar
watchnerd
Posts: 13614
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:18 am
Location: Gig Harbor, WA, USA

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by watchnerd »

muffins14 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:14 pm I used to be stronger… maybe at 25-28

Bench: 235 X 5
Squat: 305x 5
Deadlift: 335 x 5

Now, nope

I’m curious what you all would recommend doing to “get back into it” at 37

I can probably:
Bench: 135
Squat: 185
Deadlift: 195

I’ve been doing StrongLifts, like an A/B/A workout that has me squatting each time
You're 37 -- still pretty young. I think you can bump those numbers up.

Here are mine at age 52:

Overhead Press: 70 kg
Bench Press 104 kg (my weakest lift, as it doesn't translate well to weightlifting, so gets little practice)
C&J: 89 kg
Snatch: 60 kg
Front Squat: 112 kg
Back Squat: 134 kg
Clean DL: 143 kg

I have a lifting platform, squat stands, and bumper plates in my garage, so it's easy for me to train at my convenience.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
NHRATA01
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: New York City area

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by NHRATA01 »

muffins14 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:14 pm I used to be stronger… maybe at 25-28

Bench: 235 X 5
Squat: 305x 5
Deadlift: 335 x 5

Now, nope

I’m curious what you all would recommend doing to “get back into it” at 37

I can probably:
Bench: 135
Squat: 185
Deadlift: 195

I’ve been doing StrongLifts, like an A/B/A workout that has me squatting each time
Stronglifts/Starting Strength are decent beginner programs and grounded in simplicity, which is all you need.

I found after the novice period, 5/3/1 to be useful for more of an intermediate lifter. After that phase, you start to get an idea of what works for you and what doesn't - and try them all along the way.

My programming now is 4 days a week, with a bench or press variation every day, and 2 days squats/2 days deadlifts with associated variations. 5 years ago I'd have said more than 2 bench days would give me issues and more than 1 squat day would mean 7 days of not being able to walk. But rep scheme and load management matter, and my gains now (at 43) are better with less soreness than in my 30s. My squat (386) and deadlift (512) are beyond what I'd have thought about trying in my 20s.
muffins14
Posts: 5528
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:14 am
Location: New York

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by muffins14 »

NHRATA01 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:23 am my gains now (at 43) are better with less soreness than in my 30s. My squat (386) and deadlift (512) are beyond what I'd have thought about trying in my 20s.
Ok fine :-p I should shut up and get to work on this. Congrats on the Impressive numbers! I’ll get back to work on starting strength today.

Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
User avatar
simplesimon
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by simplesimon »

muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Not trying to sound crass, but really focus on pointing your butthole to the wall behind you. Same with deadlift.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by stoptothink »

simplesimon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:40 am
muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Not trying to sound crass, but really focus on pointing your butthole to the wall behind you. Same with deadlift.
Probably 95% of people, even experienced lifters, don't properly hinge. Pushing your hips back (not your butt down) initiates the squatting movement. I like to teach people to do a proper KB swing before putting any serious weight on the back to squat.
NHRATA01
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: New York City area

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by NHRATA01 »

muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am
NHRATA01 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:23 am my gains now (at 43) are better with less soreness than in my 30s. My squat (386) and deadlift (512) are beyond what I'd have thought about trying in my 20s.
Ok fine :-p I should shut up and get to work on this. Congrats on the Impressive numbers! I’ll get back to work on starting strength today.

Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
1. Ankle mobility, give them some good stretches before as part of your warmup routine (look up some routines on youtube). Also you may want to consider a raised heel shoe. This lets your knees come forward a bit more without feeling that your heel is coming off the ground. (sidenote, please don't listen to the outdated advice that knees can't go over toes in squats or you'll explode your joint, it is perfectly normal and healthy).

2. Play around with your stance width - too tight and you just don't have enough room to drop your pelvis down into your hips so the back rounds to compensate. There's also hip structural issues (depth of the hip socket) that you have absolutely no choice on which will influence this a bit.

3. Tension in the upper back - pull the bar into your back or traps (depending on low bar or high bar), elbows to lats is a good cue. And of course big breath and brace well before you start the decent. If you're not good and tight in the back with a challenging weight it can tend to tip you forward a bit and add a load to the lower back.
User avatar
watchnerd
Posts: 13614
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:18 am
Location: Gig Harbor, WA, USA

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by watchnerd »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:44 am
simplesimon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:40 am
muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Not trying to sound crass, but really focus on pointing your butthole to the wall behind you. Same with deadlift.
Probably 95% of people, even experienced lifters, don't properly hinge. Pushing your hips back (not your butt down) initiates the squatting movement. I like to teach people to do a proper KB swing before putting any serious weight on the back to squat.
For low bar, I would agree.

High bar and front squat, not so much. Those are much more about down than back, and keeping the torso more vertical.
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
hudson
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by hudson »

simplesimon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:40 am
muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Not trying to sound crass, but really focus on pointing your butthole to the wall behind you. Same with deadlift.
Thanks!
Impossible to forget this advice.
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

NHRATA01 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:52 am
muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am
NHRATA01 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:23 am my gains now (at 43) are better with less soreness than in my 30s. My squat (386) and deadlift (512) are beyond what I'd have thought about trying in my 20s.
Ok fine :-p I should shut up and get to work on this. Congrats on the Impressive numbers! I’ll get back to work on starting strength today.

Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
1. Ankle mobility, give them some good stretches before as part of your warmup routine (look up some routines on youtube). Also you may want to consider a raised heel shoe. This lets your knees come forward a bit more without feeling that your heel is coming off the ground. (sidenote, please don't listen to the outdated advice that knees can't go over toes in squats or you'll explode your joint, it is perfectly normal and healthy).

2. Play around with your stance width - too tight and you just don't have enough room to drop your pelvis down into your hips so the back rounds to compensate. There's also hip structural issues (depth of the hip socket) that you have absolutely no choice on which will influence this a bit.

3. Tension in the upper back - pull the bar into your back or traps (depending on low bar or high bar), elbows to lats is a good cue. And of course big breath and brace well before you start the decent. If you're not good and tight in the back with a challenging weight it can tend to tip you forward a bit and add a load to the lower back.
1. Warming up with lightweight squats can be enough for ankle mobility. I've heard many powerlifting coaches say ankle mobility is seldom if ever a serious issue. Otherwise, yes to this.

2. Some back rounding is fine. It depends on the amount. Over-extending is at least as much a problem. Bryce K of Calgary Barbell has some good videos on this.

3. Bracing is key for squats and all other lifts. The better braced you are, the better.
coffeeblack
Posts: 770
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by coffeeblack »

I use 531 program. I did stronglifts and starting strength before that.

As long as possible I don't think I will really change from 531.
NHRATA01
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: New York City area

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by NHRATA01 »

hudson wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:00 pm
simplesimon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:40 am
muffins14 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:32 am Any tips on good squat form to avoid rounding near the bottom?
Not trying to sound crass, but really focus on pointing your butthole to the wall behind you. Same with deadlift.
Thanks!
Impossible to forget this advice.
If you like that, you'll appreciate the cueing advice from the great Ed Coan - "You have to open up your *rhymes with paint* " which while funny and memorable, is effective and useful in getting some external hip rotation in the squat.
TightButAggressive
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:12 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by TightButAggressive »

Nice to see some overlap. Bogleheads plus powerlifting must be a very small group. I'm in my 40's and just started back weightlifting after about a 10 year hiatus to focus on starting a family and turbo charging my career.

I'm in week 6 of Stronglifts 5x5 and will migrate over to one of the 5/3/1 routines once I've exhausted my newbie gains.

I love how I feel when I lift and it has huge health benefits that show up immediately in body composition. I also enjoy the self challenge of measuring and meeting goals, being knowledgeable in something that is data driven. Similar feel to managing my own finances.

For any bogleheads who have never considered weightlifting or feel intimidated at the gym. I'll 2nd the OP, read up on Stronglifts 5x5. It's easy to get started and lifting plus healthy eating are two of the best things you can do for your health.

I'll post some updates here as I progress.
skjoldur
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:11 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by skjoldur »

exodusing wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:41 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:40 am
tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
As far as research this book cites a lot of studies. May be what you are looking for

*the author is a retired ER Doc/medical researcher who now coaches strength training full time

https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescrip ... 0982522770
The half of the book that explains the benefits of strength training is great. The half on programming is not very good and is not consistent with most modern programming. It over-emphasizes high intensity. Of course, nothing works or doesn't work for everyone.
Can you explain why the programming approach in the book is not good? I've been using off and on for a while. My anecdotal experience seems to match the idea in the book that as I get older, volume is harder to recover from and intensity helps preserve/increase strength gains. What are alternative sources you would recommend? What is a more modern approach to programming?

Thanks!
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

skjoldur wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:18 pm
exodusing wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:41 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:40 am
tc101 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 am I'm 73. For strength training I work out with light dumb bells and machines at a gym twice a week. I ride a stationary bike at home for aerobics. I am far from being a power lifter but rather than start a new conversation I thought I would just ask my question here.

How hard do you have to push yourself to gain strength and endurance from exercise? Is it really necessary to experience pain from exercise in order to gain strength and endurance? Or can you just do what feels good and still get some gains? Is there any research on this?
As far as research this book cites a lot of studies. May be what you are looking for

*the author is a retired ER Doc/medical researcher who now coaches strength training full time

https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescrip ... 0982522770
The half of the book that explains the benefits of strength training is great. The half on programming is not very good and is not consistent with most modern programming. It over-emphasizes high intensity. Of course, nothing works or doesn't work for everyone.
Can you explain why the programming approach in the book is not good? I've been using off and on for a while. My anecdotal experience seems to match the idea in the book that as I get older, volume is harder to recover from and intensity helps preserve/increase strength gains. What are alternative sources you would recommend? What is a more modern approach to programming?

Thanks!
The approach I'm seeing from just about every coach I follow includes more of a focus on higher volume and lower intensity, usually coupled with RPE (using the perceived difficulty of a lift to set weight or reps) although there would be some high intensity. However, if what you're doing is working for you, you should keep doing it. There is a tremendous amount of individual difference in reactions to programming and no need to change something that's good for you. There are many coaches who follow many approaches and I don't want to suggest that anything is universal.

My favorites are Barbell Medicine (the main coaches had been part of Starting Strength), Calgary Barbell and Alan Thrall (although he's changed focus recently). They all have youtube channels and Barbell Medicine has a website and forum with a tremendous amount of information.
aboose
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:54 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by aboose »

Someone should make a thread about home gyms while we're at it. That's my dream, and to splurge on nice equipment like Eleiko stuff.

As for me I do a program called PHUL which you can find online, but modified. I picked PHUL because it was 4 days a week which is my preferred cadence. But I think 5/3/1 as a concept is the best intermediate/advanced progression, so I stuck 5/3/1 progression on the big lift of each day. The program has squats and deadlifts on the same day so I moved Deadlifts to it's own day to fix that.
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

I benched pressed 450 pounds in competition.

315 for 19 reps and 225 for 29 reps.

375 for 2 reps on the Seated Shoulder Press.

Those were the days!

My goal is to bench press Dave’s Gulfstream!

🤣✈️✈️

Best.
Tony
Last edited by abuss368 on Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
DiploInvestor
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 9:26 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by DiploInvestor »

I don’t compete, but have done a powerlifting style of training for several years getting to (at 53 y.o. and 205 lbs bw)

Bench - 340 lbs
Squat - 465 lbs
DL - 420
Overhead Press: 205

I have to put a plug in for Mark Rippetoe and his protégé - Andy Baker. I follow Andy’s program ($27/mo), which is geared to older lifters but still legit. Mark’s books are awesome - Starting Strength and Practical Programming for Strength Training are all you really need to show you how to get strong. After a life of running and a few years of CrossFit, I’m very glad I found powerlifting.
"History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes." -- Mark Twain // "If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need." — Cicero
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

Excellent thread!

Enjoy reading about the long term commitments.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
MP173
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:03 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by MP173 »

I am 67 years old and have been lifting for about 2 years with very good results...at least what my goals are. I combine with exercise bike (or street bike in warm weather). 3 days of bike, 3 days of lifting. When I need a break I take it. The result has been a loss of about 25 pounds and a restructuring of my body with increased strength.

I used a simple 3/7 method. Dont see much about it, but came across it last fall.

Using a load about 65% to 70% of 1x max, 3 reps are performed, rest 10 seconds, then 4 reps, rest 10 seconds, 5 reps, rest 10 seconds, 6 reps, rest 10 seconds, 7 reps, the rest 60 seconds. Add a small amount of weight...perhaps 5 pounds and repeat. Then do a 3rd set. Then move to next drill. Thus, I will do 75 reps in about 6 minutes at an attainable weight. The only station I have an issue with is bench press and on my 3rd set, I am approaching failure at 6reps.

I will do from 7 to 10 stations during each session, usually about 60-70 minutes.

I have 3 core workouts using dumbbells, barbells, and cable machine and will add/delete lifts. I am constantly evolving or changing.

The important issue for me is to be in the gym and safely active. I let the young guys do the impressive stuff. I do not even attempt squats, and have recently moved away from deadlifts due to a knee issue. Also the knee is keeping me off the bike this week. Probably a miniscus. Rest usually helps.

The weights are enjoyable and lead to results....but at my age it is a much slower pace.

Ed
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95691
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by LadyGeek »

aboose wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:10 pm Someone should make a thread about home gyms while we're at it. That's my dream, and to splurge on nice equipment like Eleiko stuff...
There was a subsequent discussion which I've moved into a new thread. Here you go: Bogleheads powerlifters - What equipment are you using for a home gym?
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

MP173 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:14 pm I am 67 years old and have been lifting for about 2 years with very good results...at least what my goals are. I combine with exercise bike (or street bike in warm weather). 3 days of bike, 3 days of lifting. When I need a break I take it. The result has been a loss of about 25 pounds and a restructuring of my body with increased strength.

I used a simple 3/7 method. Dont see much about it, but came across it last fall.

Using a load about 65% to 70% of 1x max, 3 reps are performed, rest 10 seconds, then 4 reps, rest 10 seconds, 5 reps, rest 10 seconds, 6 reps, rest 10 seconds, 7 reps, the rest 60 seconds. Add a small amount of weight...perhaps 5 pounds and repeat. Then do a 3rd set. Then move to next drill. Thus, I will do 75 reps in about 6 minutes at an attainable weight. The only station I have an issue with is bench press and on my 3rd set, I am approaching failure at 6reps.

I will do from 7 to 10 stations during each session, usually about 60-70 minutes.

I have 3 core workouts using dumbbells, barbells, and cable machine and will add/delete lifts. I am constantly evolving or changing.

The important issue for me is to be in the gym and safely active. I let the young guys do the impressive stuff. I do not even attempt squats, and have recently moved away from deadlifts due to a knee issue. Also the knee is keeping me off the bike this week. Probably a miniscus. Rest usually helps.

The weights are enjoyable and lead to results....but at my age it is a much slower pace.

Ed
Sounds like you're making great progress. Congratulations!

Regarding your knee, you might find this interesting: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/pa ... g-what-do/
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

MP173 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:14 pm I am 67 years old and have been lifting for about 2 years with very good results...at least what my goals are. I combine with exercise bike (or street bike in warm weather). 3 days of bike, 3 days of lifting. When I need a break I take it. The result has been a loss of about 25 pounds and a restructuring of my body with increased strength.

I used a simple 3/7 method. Dont see much about it, but came across it last fall.

Using a load about 65% to 70% of 1x max, 3 reps are performed, rest 10 seconds, then 4 reps, rest 10 seconds, 5 reps, rest 10 seconds, 6 reps, rest 10 seconds, 7 reps, the rest 60 seconds. Add a small amount of weight...perhaps 5 pounds and repeat. Then do a 3rd set. Then move to next drill. Thus, I will do 75 reps in about 6 minutes at an attainable weight. The only station I have an issue with is bench press and on my 3rd set, I am approaching failure at 6reps.

I will do from 7 to 10 stations during each session, usually about 60-70 minutes.

I have 3 core workouts using dumbbells, barbells, and cable machine and will add/delete lifts. I am constantly evolving or changing.

The important issue for me is to be in the gym and safely active. I let the young guys do the impressive stuff. I do not even attempt squats, and have recently moved away from deadlifts due to a knee issue. Also the knee is keeping me off the bike this week. Probably a miniscus. Rest usually helps.

The weights are enjoyable and lead to results....but at my age it is a much slower pace.

Ed
At this age it is more important for leg flexibility and balance than strength. I would pass on any squat, leg press, and deadlift movement. Diminishing returns.

I used to Leg Press 1,400 lbs for reps. This was deep reps, knees to chest, backboard down, full blown, and not this few inches garbage. Now I can’t even imagine. My back, hips, etc. used to hurt! Crazy and perhaps stupid!

As we age, our hearts and lungs are more important than the size of our bench press and bicep.

Best.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
MP173
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:03 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by MP173 »

Tony:

Cant image leg pressing 1400#. I was gradually increasing increasing leg press and backed off about a month ago when the knee starting to have a bit of pain.

Actually I have taken a week off due to aches and pains...ready to resume tomorrow.

Great advise regarding eliminating the deadlifts.

Ed
User avatar
GKSD
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:01 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by GKSD »

Cool thread. Wish I had started training years ago. Anyway started getting serious about weight training/hypertrophy about 3 yrs ago. Covid lockdown & work from home ended up being good for me :)

50 yrs old; 5' 8''; 157lbs
BF: ~18-20%
Calories: ~2300/day; ~Macros: 240g Carb, 175g protein, 70g fats
Benchpress: 140lbs
Squat: 185lbs
RDL: 210lbs
OHP: 100 lbs

squats, deadlifts, farmer's carry, suitcase carry are way more effective for core/ab than crunches.

I recently started taking Creatine (2-3g/day). Anyone else 50yrs+ taking Creatine and have feedback on long term usage side effects?
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

GKSD wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:58 pm Cool thread. Wish I had started training years ago. Anyway started getting serious about weight training/hypertrophy about 3 yrs ago. Covid lockdown & work from home ended up being good for me :)

50 yrs old; 5' 8''; 157lbs
BF: ~18-20%
Calories: ~2300/day; ~Macros: 240g Carb, 175g protein, 70g fats
Benchpress: 140lbs
Squat: 185lbs
RDL: 210lbs
OHP: 100 lbs

squats, deadlifts, farmer's carry, suitcase carry are way more effective for core/ab than crunches.

I recently started taking Creatine (2-3g/day). Anyone else 50yrs+ taking Creatine and have feedback on long term usage side effects?
Older, similar size, somewhat similar stats, major difference is DL at about 350. I take about 5g of creatine a day. I'm not sure exactly what it's doing, but it's incredibly well studied, seems extremely safe, and might help.
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

A stronger body part is more likely to function well and be pain free. If you rest the body part, it will get weaker and less functional.

The key is to train in a way that you won't get injured. I've found the best way to do that is to proceed slowly and cautiously. Far and away the leading cause of injury I've seen is people pushing too hard and trying to lift weights that they were not well prepared to lift. You can adapt to bad form (within reason). You can't readily adapt to adding a lot of weight or reps. Challenging but well short of a grind is usually good.
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

MP173 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:26 pm Tony:

Cant image leg pressing 1400#. I was gradually increasing increasing leg press and backed off about a month ago when the knee starting to have a bit of pain.

Actually I have taken a week off due to aches and pains...ready to resume tomorrow.

Great advise regarding eliminating the deadlifts.

Ed
Higher reps, a lot less weight, and mind to muscle are key. I trained 5-6 days a week and competed for 30 years. Tied for best bench press at my University. Now I look back and don’t know how!

My kid is playing football and into it. So I am training him. His bench went from 160 for 1 rep to 200 for 3 reps in 2.5 months. To be young again! I am teaching him how I can take 15 lb dumbbells and do 15 reps of side laterals and get a pump and burn it. Mind to muscle. I don’t need to do crazy 55lb - 75lb lateral raises at this stage.

I have been playing around with the bench press again with him. Only one hard set for me each week. Week 1 I hit 225 for 1 rep. Last week 225 for 3. Yesterday 225 for 5 reps. I am trying to see where it goes. Sore today from that one intense set. I need to hit 29 reps at 225 lb to tie my best! Honestly, I have no plans to go any higher than 225 at this point. Just reps.

I was walking and said to my wife it is meaningless at this stage to push heavy weights and train crazy intense. I know my body won’t hold up to that level of training. I lived and breathed it. It takes everything out of you.

We need to train smarter and adapt to have better and more effective results. I don’t do any resistance training for legs any more. Only endurance and it is working so much better. Treadmill. Walking twice a day.

Remember less volume is key. I hit some of my best peaks with 10 - 12 sets per body part. Usually 10 sets. Anytime I tried to increase with the shear weight and reps I stagnated and wore myself down. The targeted muscle would be sore for days. I was a cripple each week for 30 years and lived it. Today, we can take 1-2 sets per exercise. It is so much more important to do 1-2 totally intense sets than 4 of less intensity.

Consider 2 sets of dumbbell curls to maximum reps 10-15 reps at our age. Maybe finish off those 1-2 sets with1-2 partials or a negative reps. This is better than 3-4 sets of less intensity.

Hope this helps. Anything I can do to answer any other questions, by all means fire away.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 27850
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by abuss368 »

MP173 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:26 pm Tony:

Cant image leg pressing 1400#. I was gradually increasing increasing leg press and backed off about a month ago when the knee starting to have a bit of pain.

Actually I have taken a week off due to aches and pains...ready to resume tomorrow.

Great advise regarding eliminating the deadlifts.

Ed
Hold on to a chair or post. Body weight squats only. Can also try heel up on a book or board to shift to front quads. Do many reps. Never locks out at top. Stop short from locking out by an inch or so. Slow and steady. Quads will burn, heart will go, and lungs moving. If no leg pain this is good.

Forget squats, leg press, and deadlifts.

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
NHRATA01
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:57 pm
Location: New York City area

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by NHRATA01 »

I strongly disagree with forgetting squats and deadlifts as you get older. Both are basic human movement patterns and being able to perform them in later years will allow you to do daily tasks like getting up from a couch and picking up a bag without injury. That does not mean you have to be the 0.01% at 70+ with 300lbs on your back or trying to deadlift a quarter ton. Lightweight goblet squats or dumbell RDL's will accomplish this. But the ability to execute a proper squat and hip hinge will be a big benefit to mobility and stability in the senior years.

The human body is resilient, do not be afraid to use it as was intended. What is necessary is to do so in a slow ramp of intensity to allow it to accommodate to the task you are asking of it without being overtaxed.

[Medical comments and images removed by admin LadyGeek]
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95691
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed off-topic medical comments and images (quadricep cross-section). The reasons medical advice is not permitted in this forum:

1. This is an anonymous internet forum. It is not possible to verify anyone's identity (nor do we want to). Credentials also imply accurate advice, which may not always be the case.
2. There can be disagreement among experts, which can be harmful if someone is basing a medical decision on the advice.
3. A member's description may be incomplete.
4. Readers will misinterpret the member's description.
5. Readers will misinterpret the given advice.

Since real harm can be done, we do not permit medical advice and is the reason for the first sentence in: Medical Issues
Questions on medical issues are beyond the scope of the forum. If you are looking for medical information online, I suggest you start with the Medical Library Association's User's Guide to Finding and Evaluating Health Information on the Web which, in addition to providing guidance on evaluating health information, includes a list of their top recommended sites.
We are already in disagreement. Please consult with your doctor or an expert who understands physical conditioning for your situation.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

NHRATA01 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:50 am I strongly disagree with forgetting squats and deadlifts as you get older.
Exactly. Bodies adapt to imposed demands. Rest and your body becomes very good at resting. Move and you body gets better at moving. Get stronger in important movement patterns, such as with squats and deadlifts, and your body gets better at those movements. If the average untrained individual deteriorates with age, they can easily need a walker or wheelchair, etc. Someone who's training important movements will be less likely to deteriorate and, if they do, will be in much better shape than others. Plus strong backs, knees, etc. are less likely to hurt.

Obviously don't do things which make your condition worse. That's why it's important to proceed slowly and cautiously in any exercise program.
FreedomHawk
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:00 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by FreedomHawk »

corn18 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 5:30 pm
KneeReplacementTutor wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm Anyone ever use the type of periodization illustrated in this book http://www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/Bi ... -eBook.pdf to increase their strength in the Back Squat, Deadlift and Bench Press? If so, what strategies did you implement to avoid progressive overtraining?
I use Wendler's 5/3/1 to increase strength. It's simple.
I've been using Wendler's for years also. Simple program to follow.
alfaspider
Posts: 4816
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by alfaspider »

exodusing wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:55 am
NHRATA01 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:50 am I strongly disagree with forgetting squats and deadlifts as you get older.
Exactly. Bodies adapt to imposed demands. Rest and your body becomes very good at resting. Move and you body gets better at moving. Get stronger in important movement patterns, such as with squats and deadlifts, and your body gets better at those movements. If the average untrained individual deteriorates with age, they can easily need a walker or wheelchair, etc. Someone who's training important movements will be less likely to deteriorate and, if they do, will be in much better shape than others. Plus strong backs, knees, etc. are less likely to hurt.

Obviously don't do things which make your condition worse. That's why it's important to proceed slowly and cautiously in any exercise program.
The only problem with squats and deadlifts (and I do them) is that you have to be very careful with form. Round out that back, and a "progressive overload" becomes "sudden overload", which often results in injury. That can result in a fairly sudden deterioration in overall abilities. Part of the problem is I find I need to be fully warmed up and loose to squat properly. If I am not fully loose, I lack the flexibility to perform the exercise properly. I've had to bail on squat days because I simply couldn't get loose enough (usually because another workout made certain muscles too tight).

Poor bench press form is bad for shoulders (and you can certainly injure yourself on it or any strength exercise), but I personally find I have to concentrate on form much more carefully on squats than any other exercise. For older adults who did not spend their younger years squatting, it's probably a good idea to spend a lot of time doing unweighted and bar-only squats before moving up to significant weight (even if they have the physical strength to progress sooner).
coffeeblack
Posts: 770
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by coffeeblack »

muffins14 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:14 pm I used to be stronger… maybe at 25-28

Bench: 235 X 5
Squat: 305x 5
Deadlift: 335 x 5

Now, nope

I’m curious what you all would recommend doing to “get back into it” at 37

I can probably:
Bench: 135
Squat: 185
Deadlift: 195

I’ve been doing StrongLifts, like an A/B/A workout that has me squatting each time
Stronglifts is great. If you want to get more explosive power, consider doing starting strength. They also have great videos on proper form. Especially low bar squats.
After you do that for about 3 to 6 months consider doing 5 3 1 program.
exodusing
Posts: 2210
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:32 am

Re: Any Boglehead powerlifters?

Post by exodusing »

alfaspider wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:32 pm
exodusing wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:55 am
NHRATA01 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:50 am I strongly disagree with forgetting squats and deadlifts as you get older.
Exactly. Bodies adapt to imposed demands. Rest and your body becomes very good at resting. Move and you body gets better at moving. Get stronger in important movement patterns, such as with squats and deadlifts, and your body gets better at those movements. If the average untrained individual deteriorates with age, they can easily need a walker or wheelchair, etc. Someone who's training important movements will be less likely to deteriorate and, if they do, will be in much better shape than others. Plus strong backs, knees, etc. are less likely to hurt.

Obviously don't do things which make your condition worse. That's why it's important to proceed slowly and cautiously in any exercise program.
The only problem with squats and deadlifts (and I do them) is that you have to be very careful with form. Round out that back, and a "progressive overload" becomes "sudden overload", which often results in injury. That can result in a fairly sudden deterioration in overall abilities. Part of the problem is I find I need to be fully warmed up and loose to squat properly. If I am not fully loose, I lack the flexibility to perform the exercise properly. I've had to bail on squat days because I simply couldn't get loose enough (usually because another workout made certain muscles too tight).

Poor bench press form is bad for shoulders (and you can certainly injure yourself on it or any strength exercise), but I personally find I have to concentrate on form much more carefully on squats than any other exercise. For older adults who did not spend their younger years squatting, it's probably a good idea to spend a lot of time doing unweighted and bar-only squats before moving up to significant weight (even if they have the physical strength to progress sooner).
In my experience, the body can adapt to a lot. Many people deadlift with a somewhat rounded back without a problem. It's a matter of lifting deliberately (don't jerk the bar or lift without adequately bracing) and slowly progressing. If you can comfortably lift 295 pounds for 5 reps, 300 pounds for 4 reps is unlikely to be a problem, whatever your form (within reason). If it is a problem, lift less that day. Trying to add a significant amount of weight (or number of reps) from your prior session is usually a terrible idea, whatever your form. I'm not sure if I can post videos or articles in support of this.

RPE based training is a good idea for a number of reasons, among them is it prevents you from doing too much.

I agree with you about warming up squats, whatever your age. Everyone I know can warms up squats with squats (empty bar and progressively heavier weights). For that matter, warm up every exercise that way. If that's too much, start with bodyweight.

FWIW, I started barbell training as an older adult.
Post Reply