[Are you buying a car in 2023?]

[tibbitts]

Last year we put a deposit on a new Toyota Sienna on a Tuesday. By Friday we were told they had allocated one to us with the exact specs we wanted. Limited, AWD, interior and exterior colors, packages, etc. We took delivery about 45 days later. Paid MSRP plus $2k of mandatory dealer add ons (tint, extended warranty, etc).

The Toyota dealership we bought from was the closest one to our house and only 10 minutes away. Maybe we got lucky but it's not impossible to pay MSRP and get a new Toyota within a couple months.

You didn't pay MSRP, per your post.

We were fine with the add ons and would have probably bought them anyway. There's always fees and taxes added on to MSRP and the add ons we're less than 4% of the purchase price.

Not all dealers add taxes, which surprised me, although that probably varies by state. With the last new car I bought they just sent me off and left me to pay them when I registered the car.

You can pay a fee for the dealer to send a "runner" to get your registration. If you do that, you give the dealer the sales tax and fees. You can run yourself, but we are bogleheads, we have people for that.

Oh, you pay the same fee, the dealers just charge for it without actually doing anything. You can argue but it won't matter; they can always sell the car to someone who'll pay the fee.

[z91]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

[CardinalRule]

Last year we put a deposit on a new Toyota Sienna on a Tuesday. By Friday we were told they had allocated one to us with the exact specs we wanted. Limited, AWD, interior and exterior colors, packages, etc. We took delivery about 45 days later. Paid MSRP plus $2k of mandatory dealer add ons (tint, extended warranty, etc).

The Toyota dealership we bought from was the closest one to our house and only 10 minutes away. Maybe we got lucky but it's not impossible to pay MSRP and get a new Toyota within a couple months.

You didn't pay MSRP, per your post.

We were fine with the add ons and would have probably bought them anyway. There's always fees and taxes added on to MSRP and the add ons we're less than 4% of the purchase price.

4% and almost pure profit. As a prospective car buyer, I hope things normalize soon where I can negotiate discounts from MSRP, not markups and absurdly overpriced add-ons.

[H-Town]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

You should buy that car if that’s the only car you’re open to buying and they offer below MSRP.

[thedaybeforetoday]

Last year we put a deposit on a new Toyota Sienna on a Tuesday. By Friday we were told they had allocated one to us with the exact specs we wanted. Limited, AWD, interior and exterior colors, packages, etc. We took delivery about 45 days later. Paid MSRP plus $2k of mandatory dealer add ons (tint, extended warranty, etc).

The Toyota dealership we bought from was the closest one to our house and only 10 minutes away. Maybe we got lucky but it's not impossible to pay MSRP and get a new Toyota within a couple months.

You didn't pay MSRP, per your post.

We were fine with the add ons and would have probably bought them anyway. There's always fees and taxes added on to MSRP and the add ons we're less than 4% of the purchase price.

Right. Got it. MSRP plus "add ons" (that you may or may not have purchased if they weren't mandatory to leave the dealership with the car).
Thanks for clearing that up.

[LadyGeek]

FYI - I clarified the thread title.

[Jack FFR1846]

It’s a 6-9 mo wait on a Tahoe and the local dealer might as well have spit in our faces and called us fools by trying to add on a $10 brake light flashing module that takes 5 min to install (I checked on both of these figures) for $400 and say it’s “for our safety”…where have I heard that before ? We are no nonsense cash buyers so not really who they are looking for anyhow I guess. Just gonna keep driving our paid for yoters if we can’t get something somewhat local and without ordering.

A few things can help you. First, ALWAYS take dealer financing, so long as there is no pre-payment penalty. Why? They make more money on financing than they do on selling the car. Pay the first 3 payments, even overpaying, then pay it off unless you would sneeze at $1000 that you can get off the car price. The other is to be patient and consider ordering. I did this with my Jeep and saved thousands over anything in stock within 100 miles of me. No, I don't want the upgraded radio, special wheels or upgraded paint. I spent 6 months looking and at the time, to match the price I finally got by ordering, I would have had to get a 3 year old Wrangler. I would expect that the 6 to 9 month quote from a sales person is because they want to sell you something RIGHT NOW and the way sales people go, they might not be working there next week, let alone half a year from now. Chances are quite good that you'll get a truck that's already built, awaiting a few modules. It's one of the thousands of these in a parking lot. When a "real" customer order comes in, that gets priority over the dealer stock orders. Techs locate the vehicle that's exactly what you want, plug in a few modules and drive it to the delivery lot to go to you. Where a build-to-order truck might take 6 months, chances are you'll have this thing in 3 weeks. Look for dealers who want orders. Near me (outside Boston), Herb Chambers dealers have ads up specifically looking for orders. Herb's pretty smart and I'm sure the strategy is to cut in front of dealer stock orders with "real" customer orders.

[Jungle]

My coworker has the RAV4 hybrid. It took him a lot of searching and some waiting, but he was able to find one at MSRP.

I'm thinking of upgrading my car in 2023, but I might wait another year. I really just want to keep shoveling money at index funds and get my net worth up this year. The more I put in now, the more time it has to grow. I already have enough money tied up in paid-for vehicles as it is. But it is tempting. Maybe a nice used BMW or Audi. I love a good German sports sedan. The new Corvette is nice, but I don't want $80K tied up in a weekend vehicle. Or a lightly used Navigator or Yukon - never had a big SUV before. More daily driveable.

Being an auto enthusiast is fun, but very unhealthy for your net worth. I must have burned over $50K in just car DEPRECIATION in my 20s

[Valuethinker]

My coworker has the RAV4 hybrid. It took him a lot of searching and some waiting, but he was able to find one at MSRP.

I'm thinking of upgrading my car in 2023, but I might wait another year. I really just want to keep shoveling money at index funds and get my net worth up this year.

This is a general point, especially about equity investing. It also means you have more money at risk if the market falls.

Bonds *guarantee* a positive return (it gets complicated if you hold a fund, but a bond as an instrument pays out a positive return to investors if held to maturity; a TIPS bond gives a real return (not entirely predictable) ie adjusted for inflation).

Stocks do nothing of the sort. More money in the market = more chance of losing money (more money is at risk with a $1m portfolio than a $500k portfolio). That's why doubling your stock portfolio is not necessarily an improvement - unless you switch some of those equities into certain instruments (ie bonds, inflation-linked bonds, bank deposits).

This is why our rule of thumb is often stated as "hold bond funds with duration less than or equal to your need for the cash". The same is true of equity funds, but the duration is longer (and you can't pinpoint it, because the cash flows are so uncertain).

The more I put in now, the more time it has to grow. I already have enough money tied up in paid-for vehicles as it is. But it is tempting. Maybe a nice used BMW or Audi. I love a good German sports sedan. The new Corvette is nice, but I don't want $80K tied up in a weekend vehicle. Or a lightly used Navigator or Yukon - never had a big SUV before. More daily driveable.

Being an auto enthusiast is fun, but very unhealthy for your net worth. I must have burned over $50K in just car DEPRECIATION in my 20s

It is good to defer gratification. In the long run, that should give you a larger portfolio in the future (invested in TIPS & ibonds, that is basically guaranteed).

Behavioural economics & psychology suggest that we tend to value experiences that we spent money on more than things. The hypothesis is that this is because we can continually edit experiences in our memories (and do) & thus increase their retrospective appeal. Whereas things are there & we have to confront the cold reality of what they are.

For a car enthusiast, perhaps the daily travel is the experience that we savour. In the way we might a fine wine?

[thedaybeforetoday]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

To answer your question: Wait

[Agent 99]

The discount is through Megacorp, and as far as I know it's not going away anytime soon. Some people have had the same car for 6 months now (that's the limit, but you could just turn in the car and get another). I guess I should be thankful for this discount, I just feel weird spending money on a car I don't own, but after pulling some quotes this is a pretty great perk.

I have a pretty similar rate, although taxes make it vary a whole lot depending on the state, airport / non-airport, etc. Have thought through doing this for a period of time.

By this point in the thread you indicated you plan to buy a Mazda. In case you change your mind and go the rental route be aware that if you rent for more than 30 days(?) the insurance coverage by the credit card and your personal policy will most likely not cover any vehicle damage. I learned the hard way that it is necessary to return the car and get a new contract - not a contract extension - to remain covered.

[z91]

The discount is through Megacorp, and as far as I know it's not going away anytime soon. Some people have had the same car for 6 months now (that's the limit, but you could just turn in the car and get another). I guess I should be thankful for this discount, I just feel weird spending money on a car I don't own, but after pulling some quotes this is a pretty great perk.

I have a pretty similar rate, although taxes make it vary a whole lot depending on the state, airport / non-airport, etc. Have thought through doing this for a period of time.

By this point in the thread you indicated you plan to buy a Mazda. In case you change your mind and go the rental route be aware that if you rent for more than 30 days(?) the insurance coverage by the credit card and your personal policy will most likely not cover any vehicle damage. I learned the hard way that it is necessary to return the car and get a new contract - not a contract extension - to remain covered.

I'm not using credit card insurance. It's coverage directly through Avis.

[z91]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

To answer your question: Wait

Perhaps to be more clear, that poster indicated I had some negotiating power.

[H-Town]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

To answer your question: Wait

Perhaps to be more clear, that poster indicated I had some negotiating power.

Your decision to wait until there is a better deal is the ultimate negotiating power.

[tibbitts]

The discount is through Megacorp, and as far as I know it's not going away anytime soon. Some people have had the same car for 6 months now (that's the limit, but you could just turn in the car and get another). I guess I should be thankful for this discount, I just feel weird spending money on a car I don't own, but after pulling some quotes this is a pretty great perk.

I have a pretty similar rate, although taxes make it vary a whole lot depending on the state, airport / non-airport, etc. Have thought through doing this for a period of time.

By this point in the thread you indicated you plan to buy a Mazda. In case you change your mind and go the rental route be aware that if you rent for more than 30 days(?) the insurance coverage by the credit card and your personal policy will most likely not cover any vehicle damage. I learned the hard way that it is necessary to return the car and get a new contract - not a contract extension - to remain covered.

I'm not using credit card insurance. It's coverage directly through Avis.

That's a large part of what makes your rental such an amazing deal.

[Agent 99]

The discount is through Megacorp, and as far as I know it's not going away anytime soon. Some people have had the same car for 6 months now (that's the limit, but you could just turn in the car and get another). I guess I should be thankful for this discount, I just feel weird spending money on a car I don't own, but after pulling some quotes this is a pretty great perk.

I have a pretty similar rate, although taxes make it vary a whole lot depending on the state, airport / non-airport, etc. Have thought through doing this for a period of time.

By this point in the thread you indicated you plan to buy a Mazda. In case you change your mind and go the rental route be aware that if you rent for more than 30 days(?) the insurance coverage by the credit card and your personal policy will most likely not cover any vehicle damage. I learned the hard way that it is necessary to return the car and get a new contract - not a contract extension - to remain covered.

I'm not using credit card insurance. It's coverage directly through Avis.

If you have an American Express card you may want to consider this perk - Premium Car Rental Insurance. Might be cheaper than Avis but the car may have to be returned to meet the 30 or 42 day requirement.

https://feeservices-qa.americanexpress. ... ge/home.do

[tibbitts]

The discount is through Megacorp, and as far as I know it's not going away anytime soon. Some people have had the same car for 6 months now (that's the limit, but you could just turn in the car and get another). I guess I should be thankful for this discount, I just feel weird spending money on a car I don't own, but after pulling some quotes this is a pretty great perk.

I have a pretty similar rate, although taxes make it vary a whole lot depending on the state, airport / non-airport, etc. Have thought through doing this for a period of time.

By this point in the thread you indicated you plan to buy a Mazda. In case you change your mind and go the rental route be aware that if you rent for more than 30 days(?) the insurance coverage by the credit card and your personal policy will most likely not cover any vehicle damage. I learned the hard way that it is necessary to return the car and get a new contract - not a contract extension - to remain covered.

I'm not using credit card insurance. It's coverage directly through Avis.

If you have an American Express card you may want to consider this perk - Premium Car Rental Insurance. Might be cheaper than Avis but the car may have to be returned to meet the 30 or 42 day requirement.

https://feeservices-qa.americanexpress. ... ge/home.do

The OP apparently has a corporate/group deal with Avis that includes coverage in rentals. The OP isn't buying coverage the way you or I would, so any coverage, such as the Amex plan, is competing with a superior and zero-cost option. The Amex plan (or credit card) coverage can't compete with a rental company's CDW coverage.

[invest2bfree]

Edit: Whoops, this should go under consumer issues, my apologies.

I, like many others, am looking to buy a RAV-4 hybrid. I went to dealerships this weekend and everybody gave the same spiel, which is of course understandable given current circumstances. I had asked about getting on a waitlist, but they seem to have put me on an imaginary one (one place didn't even take my info down).

I have a decent rental discount and can get rentals inclusive of insurance and taxes for about $20/day.

With this recession we're in, I figure maybe in a few months I might be able to pick up the exact car I'm looking for? This rental doesn't seem too bad of a deal, and it buys me some time to do car shopping to see what else may interest me. I did look at some non-hybrid SUVs, but I feel like I'd be "settling" and for a car I plan to keep 10+ years, seems like a bad idea.

What are other folks doing?

We just bought a 2023 Kia Telluride LX MSRP $40k paid $42,500 before taxes. $2500 more than MSRP.

This is a base model but has leatherette seats which was a requirement for Mrs and 8 seater bench seats.

Personally based on the requirements of my wife we were looking at a $60k car, was lucky to find this for $42.5K so just took it.

[thedaybeforetoday]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Any car salesman is lucky to have you. You just surrender all negotiating power. As a consumer, you hold all the power: the ability to walk away without making a purchase.

Given there are no cars to buy, what do you suggest? I went to the only Mazda dealer in a 100 mile radius that has a color + trim I want. It's offered below MSRP, but what do I tell them? "Hey can you move lower on the price? It's the only car I'm open to buying, but if you don't lower it I'm walking out and going to wait another month hoping one of the other dealers gets one."

To answer your question: Wait

Perhaps to be more clear, that poster indicated I had some negotiating power.

IMO you don't have enough negotiating power. It's not you, it's the market. No one has much negotiating power for the vehicle(s) you are interested in.
I know you don't want to hear it but this one individual's advise is to....wait.

[MoonOrb]

Last month we ordered a Subaru Crosstrek that should arrive in April or, less likely, March. We could have had one the same day if we were okay with an automatic transmission, but we wanted a manual transmission, so we decided to just wait until it arrives from the factory. It's going to replace a 2008 Mazda3.

[Fremdon Ferndock]

I'm casually looking at 2023 CRV Hybrid. Despite being a "hot car", I've had 2 local dealers text/email me incessantly. After a long lecture on "supply chain" issues to justify their $5000 above MSRP, they now willing to sell $950 above MSRP. I'm still waiting...

Me too. Local dealer said they need a $500 non-refundable deposit to get one, and they are only offering that to previous customers. Didn't discuss price -- I said I won't be doing anything for another 6 months or so. Maybe things will loosen up by then. If not, I won't be getting one. There are other girls at the dance...

[z91]

Costco seems like a pretty good option, for those who are waiting. I have some test drives setup for cars I'm interested in. No haggling, but the price seems very competitive and no back and forth necessary.

[sleepysurf]

I'm driving a 12 y/o Lexus RX. I'd like to replace it with an RX 350h, but not until prices come back to MSRP or lower, so likely not until year end. In the meantime, I threw the new car $$ into a short term T-Bill ladder, and will keep rolling it until RX supply picks up. Knock wood, my current one has held up well thus far, so I can wait it out.

[Carguy85]

Well I’m the process of buying a Tahoe…the one dealer in 300 miles that had what we are looking for offered $6k under what our trade is worth, did not accept gm discounts, and added $4k in scammy accessories to the full msrp. Not to mention this vehicle is a 22 and was damaged on delivery…bless their hearts. The dealer just down the street had a more highly optioned ($6-7k more) but right color one and offered a fair trade and gm discount but insist on about $1000 of scammy dealer added accessories. I’m thinking they both have done me a significant financial favor. What is the marginal utility of spending $45k in addition to trade on a 23 Tahoe over a 17 Limited Sequoia anyway…more than I spent total with tax on my 2020 crewmax truck. I’m thinking it’s a big waste of money but happy wife happy life right?

[percy]

A couple people mentioned ordering cars. I've had a problem buying new cars without add-ons that I don't want; I had the impression that many dealers don't want to sell base models without extras.

Anyone know if it's hard to get dealers to order a base model car?

Also, do you sign the contract when ordering, or when it comes in?

Will they definitely hold it for you, or is there a risk that they'll sell to someone else if they can get a higher price?

[Carguy85]

It’s a 6-9 mo wait on a Tahoe and the local dealer might as well have spit in our faces and called us fools by trying to add on a $10 brake light flashing module that takes 5 min to install (I checked on both of these figures) for $400 and say it’s “for our safety”…where have I heard that before ? We are no nonsense cash buyers so not really who they are looking for anyhow I guess. Just gonna keep driving our paid for yoters if we can’t get something somewhat local and without ordering.

A few things can help you. First, ALWAYS take dealer financing, so long as there is no pre-payment penalty. Why? They make more money on financing than they do on selling the car. Pay the first 3 payments, even overpaying, then pay it off unless you would sneeze at $1000 that you can get off the car price. The other is to be patient and consider ordering. I did this with my Jeep and saved thousands over anything in stock within 100 miles of me. No, I don't want the upgraded radio, special wheels or upgraded paint. I spent 6 months looking and at the time, to match the price I finally got by ordering, I would have had to get a 3 year old Wrangler. I would expect that the 6 to 9 month quote from a sales person is because they want to sell you something RIGHT NOW and the way sales people go, they might not be working there next week, let alone half a year from now. Chances are quite good that you'll get a truck that's already built, awaiting a few modules. It's one of the thousands of these in a parking lot. When a "real" customer order comes in, that gets priority over the dealer stock orders. Techs locate the vehicle that's exactly what you want, plug in a few modules and drive it to the delivery lot to go to you. Where a build-to-order truck might take 6 months, chances are you'll have this thing in 3 weeks. Look for dealers who want orders. Near me (outside Boston), Herb Chambers dealers have ads up specifically looking for orders. Herb's pretty smart and I'm sure the strategy is to cut in front of dealer stock orders with "real" customer orders.

Thanks for the response…some things to consider. I’ve certainly heard of instances of ordering Jeeps with similar experiences. Our credit is froze but it could be worth the hassle for $1000 or so. I’ve determined that the dealer that gave the impression of a 6-9mo wait is not the dealer for us due to scammy add ons. Of course, the local Toyota dealership is awesome…they won’t mark up above msrp on anything (it used to be invoice pricing), have a reasonable doc fee (under $200) and no scammy add ons. I’ve bought several vehicles off them over the years. Most recent was my 2020 truck. Invoice in addition to $2500 rebate right off the bat no shenanigans and exactly what I wanted fresh off the delivery truck. They even gave me a late model loaner to drive for the week or so I waited on the truck to come in free of charge. Unfortunately, Toyota no longer offers anything we want. Toyota ruined the new tundras and sequoias in our opinion. I have 0 desire to get rid of my truck but after nearly 6 years she’s looking for something more fancy than her Sequoia even though I’d love to keep it to 300k also. We’ve even considered getting her a “fun” second vehicle…thinking a Wrangler…almost makes more sense given the tremendous cost of a moderately optioned Tahoe. I bought my 17 Wrangler unlimited sport with hardtop new for $30k….seems like $40 is the new $30k.

[Fremdon Ferndock]

Edit: Whoops, this should go under consumer issues, my apologies.

I, like many others, am looking to buy a RAV-4 hybrid. I went to dealerships this weekend and everybody gave the same spiel, which is of course understandable given current circumstances. I had asked about getting on a waitlist, but they seem to have put me on an imaginary one (one place didn't even take my info down).

I have a decent rental discount and can get rentals inclusive of insurance and taxes for about $20/day.

With this recession we're in, I figure maybe in a few months I might be able to pick up the exact car I'm looking for? This rental doesn't seem too bad of a deal, and it buys me some time to do car shopping to see what else may interest me. I did look at some non-hybrid SUVs, but I feel like I'd be "settling" and for a car I plan to keep 10+ years, seems like a bad idea.

What are other folks doing?

I want to add that Toyota has more problems with their supply chain than others. Honda mentioned in press that worst is behind, and from inventory of new pilots and crvs it certainly appears that way.
In my mind RAV4 and CRV are a wash. No one is significantly better that the other. CRV is new, but that is the only downside of it. There could be some issues being first model year.

In my experience (Honda CRV) the problems extend out to the second year as well. The second year is nothing but the first year with a newer build date.

[Glockenspiel]

If it were up to my spouse, she'd replace my 2015 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport, but I want to wait another couple of years because the Santa Fe only has 70,000 miles on it, and I want to get an EV instead of an ICE engine, want more to choose from, and more competition in the EV space.

[TheOscarGuy]

Edit: Whoops, this should go under consumer issues, my apologies.

I, like many others, am looking to buy a RAV-4 hybrid. I went to dealerships this weekend and everybody gave the same spiel, which is of course understandable given current circumstances. I had asked about getting on a waitlist, but they seem to have put me on an imaginary one (one place didn't even take my info down).

I have a decent rental discount and can get rentals inclusive of insurance and taxes for about $20/day.

With this recession we're in, I figure maybe in a few months I might be able to pick up the exact car I'm looking for? This rental doesn't seem too bad of a deal, and it buys me some time to do car shopping to see what else may interest me. I did look at some non-hybrid SUVs, but I feel like I'd be "settling" and for a car I plan to keep 10+ years, seems like a bad idea.

What are other folks doing?

I want to add that Toyota has more problems with their supply chain than others. Honda mentioned in press that worst is behind, and from inventory of new pilots and crvs it certainly appears that way.
In my mind RAV4 and CRV are a wash. No one is significantly better that the other. CRV is new, but that is the only downside of it. There could be some issues being first model year.

In my experience (Honda CRV) the problems extend out to the second year as well. The second year is nothing but the first year with a newer build date.

You are right about CRV 2015+. I am giving them benefit of doubt as they push 2023 out Given their past releases, I don't expect this to be without hiccups.

[Glockenspiel]

Paid MSRP plus $2k of mandatory dealer add ons (tint, extended warranty, etc).

Mandatory dealer add-ons? Is that even legal? I've never heard of a dealership requiring you to buy add-ons that are 90% pure profit for them. I'd have walked away from this dealer for being so sleazy.

[TheOscarGuy]

Paid MSRP plus $2k of mandatory dealer add ons (tint, extended warranty, etc).

Mandatory dealer add-ons? Is that even legal? I've never heard of a dealership requiring you to buy add-ons that are 90% pure profit for them. I'd have walked away from this dealer for being so sleazy.

Its a thing. For more desirable vehicles, they shamelessly include it in MSRP. Folks think they are getting at MSRP and get happy. You gotta read fine print to make sure they don't have add-ons.

[dsmclone]

Being an auto enthusiast is fun, but very unhealthy for your net worth. I must have burned over $50K in just car DEPRECIATION in my 20s

You're not alone. I remember "having" to buy the 2003 Nissan 350z when it came out. It probably cost 75% of my yearly salary at the time. So dumb.

[TheOscarGuy]

Being an auto enthusiast is fun, but very unhealthy for your net worth. I must have burned over $50K in just car DEPRECIATION in my 20s

You're not alone. I remember "having" to buy the 2003 Nissan 350z when it came out. It probably cost 75% of my yearly salary at the time. So dumb.

Isnt it considered a classic now? My kid showed it to me on forza the other day.

[Fremdon Ferndock]

Was just on BMW website configuring an X3 and it appears the Driver Assistance package that includes lane-keeping assist is not available. I presume that is because of the supply issues that are affecting things. I wouldn't get one w/o this option. Is this a common thing?

[toblerone]

Is this a common thing?

I doubt it. We purchased an X3 with lane assist in Dec 2022, and the dealership website shows current inventory X3 models with lane assist. It could be a problem or confusion with the online configurator.

[z91]

I think the chip shortage is still in effect. Some Mazdas I was looking at don't come with upgraded audio or a power lift gate, even though they are advertised to. Now they put in a credit for those items if the car doesn't come with them. They appear to be in some transition state as some cars are coming in with them, others without. Really YMMV depending on location and inventory.

[Jungle]

Being an auto enthusiast is fun, but very unhealthy for your net worth. I must have burned over $50K in just car DEPRECIATION in my 20s

You're not alone. I remember "having" to buy the 2003 Nissan 350z when it came out. It probably cost 75% of my yearly salary at the time. So dumb.

At one point I almost bought an 09 370Z off Craigslist. Wound up buying a half-broke 2001 Duramax instead as a "project", owned it for a whole 10 months lol

[Jack FFR1846]

I think the chip shortage is still in effect. Some Mazdas I was looking at don't come with upgraded audio or a power lift gate, even though they are advertised to. Now they put in a credit for those items if the car doesn't come with them. They appear to be in some transition state as some cars are coming in with them, others without. Really YMMV depending on location and inventory.

Shortages of chips and more parts still exists. Is it coming to an end soon? Yes. Our latest projections (I work for a chip maker) is that today's lead times of 52 weeks (only if you're in a committed program to project future needs a year out) is expected 2 quarters from now to be down to 26 weeks. We have cancelled plans for a new 12" fab. Hiring is now only to replace people who are leaving. No more expanding of the workforce. This is all conservative, "make sense" practice because as much as Federal "chips" money to build more US based chip manufacturing, this is all a big "nothing". Why? The cost is in keeping a fab running at least 90%. If you don't have the orders to keep it going, the company will be taking losses. Building a $5B fab and taking 3 years to do it because the government is giving the company $10M is resulting in a lot of "thanks, but no thanks" responses. Sure, the Intel fab and LG that are well under way are going to accept the money because they're building anyways.

So how does this affect car availability and price and options? Depends on the car company. The Japanese have been affected like everyone else with Covid but also had the fire at the Renesas fab and then 2 Renesas fabs shut down for a time because of the tsunami. Toyota more than anyone else because they're bigger than anyone else. A lot of US factory production by Toyota is simply assembling things from Japan. You can see what car makers are caught up simply by driving by dealerships. I do that. Lexus and Ford are sparse. Jeep/Ram has not only bought the next door Mitsubishi dealership and converted into a Jeep-only dealership, their lot that at the trough of Covid had literally 5 cars on the lot now have both lots full. Probably 300 or 400 cars. Want a Wrangler 4xe plug in hybrid? (just looked up) they have 25 on the lot. The Lexus dealer has 52 cars on the website but only 25 on the lot. The rest are "in transit", so look at the lot. I was test driving a Lexus and was told that most of the "in transit" cars are actually sold.

According to Car Edge (youtube site, used to be YAA), cars are coming down in price but are still overpriced and will not be back to normal for another 90 days. I'm in the market and will wait 3 months and then plan to order what I want.

To answer the question, I am probably buying a new car in 2023, but we'll see. I won't overpay and will just drive my existing cars until I like the price of a car I want.

[fourniks]

I think the chip shortage is still in effect. Some Mazdas I was looking at don't come with upgraded audio or a power lift gate, even though they are advertised to. Now they put in a credit for those items if the car doesn't come with them. They appear to be in some transition state as some cars are coming in with them, others without. Really YMMV depending on location and inventory.

I'm picking up a Mazda CX-30 today after test-driving on 2/3 and negotiating via text with three different dealers. MSRP was $30,605 and I got it for $29,995. The other dealers were within $300-$500 of what I got. I have never paid anywhere close to MSRP as this deal, and I really couldn't wait this market out.

We started looking at similar vehicles such as Corolla Cross, Honda HRV and Honda Civic. Honda has lots of "Sport" level trim on the lots, but absolutely no LX or EX levels and have a 6-month wait.

Personally, I thought the added expense of any hybrid or hybrid plug-in at this level was not worth it.

[Fremdon Ferndock]

Is this a common thing?

I doubt it. We purchased an X3 with lane assist in Dec 2022, and the dealership website shows current inventory X3 models with lane assist. It could be a problem or confusion with the online configurator.

Online, it looks like you can get the X3 with lane departure warning but not with lane assist which steers the vehicle. Don't know if it doesn't come with that or it's just not available for some reason.

[z91]

Anyone know what typical doc fees are like? Seems like dealers around me are quoting the appropriate TTL, but the doc fees range from $150-300

Why the disparity?

[lazydavid]

Was just on BMW website configuring an X3 and it appears the Driver Assistance package that includes lane-keeping assist is not available. I presume that is because of the supply issues that are affecting things. I wouldn't get one w/o this option. Is this a common thing?

It was removed as an option on both 4-cylinder models on June 25, 2021, as part of the LCI (refresh) that began production in July. The Parking Assistance Package and Harmon/Kardon audio were also discontinued for these models at the same time. Those two returned for 2023, but Driver Assistant Professional did not.

Both 6-cylinder models retained all 3 options throughout.

[H-Town]

Shortages of chips and more parts still exists. Is it coming to an end soon? Yes. Our latest projections (I work for a chip maker) is that today's lead times of 52 weeks (only if you're in a committed program to project future needs a year out) is expected 2 quarters from now to be down to 26 weeks. We have cancelled plans for a new 12" fab. Hiring is now only to replace people who are leaving. No more expanding of the workforce. This is all conservative, "make sense" practice because as much as Federal "chips" money to build more US based chip manufacturing, this is all a big "nothing". Why? The cost is in keeping a fab running at least 90%. If you don't have the orders to keep it going, the company will be taking losses. Building a $5B fab and taking 3 years to do it because the government is giving the company $10M is resulting in a lot of "thanks, but no thanks" responses. Sure, the Intel fab and LG that are well under way are going to accept the money because they're building anyways.

So how does this affect car availability and price and options? Depends on the car company. The Japanese have been affected like everyone else with Covid but also had the fire at the Renesas fab and then 2 Renesas fabs shut down for a time because of the tsunami. Toyota more than anyone else because they're bigger than anyone else. A lot of US factory production by Toyota is simply assembling things from Japan. You can see what car makers are caught up simply by driving by dealerships. I do that. Lexus and Ford are sparse. Jeep/Ram has not only bought the next door Mitsubishi dealership and converted into a Jeep-only dealership, their lot that at the trough of Covid had literally 5 cars on the lot now have both lots full. Probably 300 or 400 cars. Want a Wrangler 4xe plug in hybrid? (just looked up) they have 25 on the lot. The Lexus dealer has 52 cars on the website but only 25 on the lot. The rest are "in transit", so look at the lot. I was test driving a Lexus and was told that most of the "in transit" cars are actually sold.

According to Car Edge (youtube site, used to be YAA), cars are coming down in price but are still overpriced and will not be back to normal for another 90 days. I'm in the market and will wait 3 months and then plan to order what I want.

To answer the question, I am probably buying a new car in 2023, but we'll see. I won't overpay and will just drive my existing cars until I like the price of a car I want.

Thank you! Very informative.

[White Coat Investor]

Edit: Whoops, this should go under consumer issues, my apologies.

I, like many others, am looking to buy a RAV-4 hybrid. I went to dealerships this weekend and everybody gave the same spiel, which is of course understandable given current circumstances. I had asked about getting on a waitlist, but they seem to have put me on an imaginary one (one place didn't even take my info down).

I have a decent rental discount and can get rentals inclusive of insurance and taxes for about $20/day.

With this recession we're in, I figure maybe in a few months I might be able to pick up the exact car I'm looking for? This rental doesn't seem too bad of a deal, and it buys me some time to do car shopping to see what else may interest me. I did look at some non-hybrid SUVs, but I feel like I'd be "settling" and for a car I plan to keep 10+ years, seems like a bad idea.

What are other folks doing?

I ordered a 2022 F-250 in December 2021. They didn't make it (I found out in November 2022 that I was being bumped to 2023). Now they're making 2023s. I expect mine to show up in August or so. So that'll be about a 21 month wait. To be fair I could have had it sooner if I had been willing to take off some options/trim levels.

[lazybones18]

I put a $500 deposit down on Highlander Hybrid Platinum 2023 at a MSRP dealership in February 2022

I am finally getting my car end of this month.

its actually being build today

[tibbitts]

Anyone know what typical doc fees are like? Seems like dealers around me are quoting the appropriate TTL, but the doc fees range from $150-300

Why the disparity?

Even more than a decade ago the ones I were aware of were in the $500 range. Maybe double now?

[Carguy85]

Anyone know what typical doc fees are like? Seems like dealers around me are quoting the appropriate TTL, but the doc fees range from $150-300

Why the disparity?

Even more than a decade ago the ones I were aware of were in the $500 range. Maybe double now?

Wow! Anything more than $199 and it’s too much into scam territory to look the other way. I’ve bought a handful of vehicles where there was no doc fee.

[tarheel79]

I think the chip shortage is still in effect. Some Mazdas I was looking at don't come with upgraded audio or a power lift gate, even though they are advertised to. Now they put in a credit for those items if the car doesn't come with them. They appear to be in some transition state as some cars are coming in with them, others without. Really YMMV depending on location and inventory.

Shortages of chips and more parts still exists. Is it coming to an end soon? Yes. Our latest projections (I work for a chip maker) is that today's lead times of 52 weeks (only if you're in a committed program to project future needs a year out) is expected 2 quarters from now to be down to 26 weeks. We have cancelled plans for a new 12" fab. Hiring is now only to replace people who are leaving. No more expanding of the workforce. This is all conservative, "make sense" practice because as much as Federal "chips" money to build more US based chip manufacturing, this is all a big "nothing". Why? The cost is in keeping a fab running at least 90%. If you don't have the orders to keep it going, the company will be taking losses. Building a $5B fab and taking 3 years to do it because the government is giving the company $10M is resulting in a lot of "thanks, but no thanks" responses. Sure, the Intel fab and LG that are well under way are going to accept the money because they're building anyways.

So how does this affect car availability and price and options? Depends on the car company. The Japanese have been affected like everyone else with Covid but also had the fire at the Renesas fab and then 2 Renesas fabs shut down for a time because of the tsunami. Toyota more than anyone else because they're bigger than anyone else. A lot of US factory production by Toyota is simply assembling things from Japan. You can see what car makers are caught up simply by driving by dealerships. I do that. Lexus and Ford are sparse. Jeep/Ram has not only bought the next door Mitsubishi dealership and converted into a Jeep-only dealership, their lot that at the trough of Covid had literally 5 cars on the lot now have both lots full. Probably 300 or 400 cars. Want a Wrangler 4xe plug in hybrid? (just looked up) they have 25 on the lot. The Lexus dealer has 52 cars on the website but only 25 on the lot. The rest are "in transit", so look at the lot. I was test driving a Lexus and was told that most of the "in transit" cars are actually sold.

According to Car Edge (youtube site, used to be YAA), cars are coming down in price but are still overpriced and will not be back to normal for another 90 days. I'm in the market and will wait 3 months and then plan to order what I want.

To answer the question, I am probably buying a new car in 2023, but we'll see. I won't overpay and will just drive my existing cars until I like the price of a car I want.

I’m listening to Jack.

[GreenLawn]

Although I have a cheap rental, I am sick of waiting around. I am looking at some Mazda and Kia SUVs now as they seem readily available, and have had good reviews. Wish me luck.

As good as the RAV-4 is, there's no way I'm going to wait 6 months for one, or have to beg a bunch of dealers.

Since you're considering a Kia, I'd suggest you test drive a Hyundai Tucson hybrid, which I believe shares the same powertrain as the Kia equivalent. From my test drives, I'd consider the Tucson hybrid to be in the same league as the Japanese brands.

The Koreans don't today have the stellar reputation of Honda and Toyota, but if Korean reliability going forward holds up, the Japanese are in for real competition. And the Japanese need it, neither the CRV nor the RAV4 particularly impressed me, they're coasting on their reputation.

[tibbitts]

Anyone know what typical doc fees are like? Seems like dealers around me are quoting the appropriate TTL, but the doc fees range from $150-300

Why the disparity?

Even more than a decade ago the ones I were aware of were in the $500 range. Maybe double now?

Wow! Anything more than $199 and it’s too much into scam territory to look the other way. I’ve bought a handful of vehicles where there was no doc fee.

I think all you can do is look at the out-the-door price and compare that. You might be staring right at it and not looking the other way but that won't make a dealership change its fees. If they don't sell a car to you they'll just sell it to the next person in line.