Leveraging Potential Offer

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Topic Author
sapper1371
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Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

I was concerned that I was not being paid market value so started to shop myself around. I had my first interview with a recruiter from a top competitor this week and was asked for salary expectation. I provided a number about 25% higher than I am currently making. Today I received notice that the hiring manager would like to interview me later this week.

So while I currently don’t have an offer, I think there is a decent potential here that I might get an offer considerably higher than I currently make, so just doing some thinking.

For the sake of argument, let’s assume I do get an offer 25% higher, and that it’s an offer that I would highly consider taking.

Ideally, I’d like to leverage such an offer into a ~20% raise at current company, if possible, before jumping ship. I’ve talked to some manger colleagues at my megacorp (not my manager) and at least 1 suggested that if I would be looking for a double digit raise that I need to give my manager more time to try to make that happen so I should “tip my hand” that I’m interviewing and that there is the potential for the gap to be large. I’ve previously hinted that I thought I might be underpaid so it probably would not be a complete shock.

I am very reluctant to tip my hand any further until I have an offer in hand that I’d consider taking. It just seems too presumptuous to me, even though it may be true that more time would be better to get something done. Am I being too cautious or would you agree that it is what it is as far as giving them 48-72hrs to develop their best counter before I have to make a decision on a new offer?
CletusCaddy
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by CletusCaddy »

You have no leverage until you get an offer

After you get the offer, you have no leverage unless the offers make you genuinely indifferent between going and staying. Be honest with yourself about this part.
Jags4186
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Jags4186 »

Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:22 pm Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
Thanks. This holds true for 20% at a megacorp? Seems wheels turn slowly and lots of approvals would be needed. Maybe just too unrealistic.
Morford
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Morford »

I wouldn’t expect a counter offer from your current company - so plan accordingly
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Morford wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:33 pm I wouldn’t expect a counter offer from your current company - so plan accordingly
I fully expect one, but I won’t count on it.
Morford
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Morford »

For a little more context - you know your megacorp better than I know mine. I’d be very hesitant as a senior leader to counteroffer anyone on my team and certainly not in this macroenvironment. Completely understand your situation and hope it works out.
WannaRetire
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by WannaRetire »

What is this hand tipping thing?
Jags4186
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Jags4186 »

sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:22 pm Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
Thanks. This holds true for 20% at a megacorp? Seems wheels turn slowly and lots of approvals would be needed. Maybe just too unrealistic.
Every company can match an offer quickly if they want to. You may not be someone they are willing to move fast enough for.
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snackdog
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by snackdog »

I tried this once at a megacorp many years ago. It turned out to be scary because the offer was from a much smaller company. My boss looked very squeamish when I announced my demands for both salary and work scope changes. He said he would look into it but not to expect much if anything. I was furious and resolved that night to resign the next morning. That morning his boss called me in and said all was approved per a pre-existing plan to give me a special raise anyhow, unrelated to my demand. Uh-huh. The little company didn't last long and would have been a terrible place to work. I didn't do this again.
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muffins14
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by muffins14 »

CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:21 pm You have no leverage until you get an offer

After you get the offer, you have no leverage unless the offers make you genuinely indifferent between going and staying. Be honest with yourself about this part.
+1

Spend your current energy trying to get this new offer. Worry about negotiating later. The new company may not in fact give you a 25% raise, and/or it might depend on how well you interview.

Also make peace with the possibility that your current company may only be slow to meet some but not all of the gap.
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galawdawg
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by galawdawg »

sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:45 pm
Morford wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:33 pm I wouldn’t expect a counter offer from your current company - so plan accordingly
I fully expect one, but I won’t count on it.
I'm not sure why you would expect one. Your previous thread on getting a raise from your current employer mentioned how many people left because they got better offers making 25%+ more at other companies. If your employer was interested in retaining employees who receive competing offers, some of those who left for "greener pastures" would not have left. And you already asked your current employer for a raise and received 7.5%. That, in my opinion, reflects what your company is willing to do to retain you at the present time.

As others have noted, don't waste any energy right now on what you might do if you get an offer from another company. Continue the interview process and see what unfolds. If you get a significantly better offer and wish to consider staying at your current employer, simply advise them of that offer and ask them if they can match it. Either they'll make you an offer or they'll wish you good luck in your new position.

If you do receive another job offer and plan on asking your current employer for another raise, wait to accept that new position until you have given your current employer an opportunity to retain you and you find out whether that is successful. You don't want to burn a bridge with that potential new employer by accepting a position only to change your mind and decide to stay at your current company.

I'd also suggest you have your ducks in a row before you give notice or ask your current employer for another raise so that if you are "walked", you are prepared. If I had an employee who approached me for a raise, received 7.5%, and then came back to the well a month or two later asking for more because they had another job lined up, I'd accept their resignation and that person would be a former employee by day's end. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. :beer
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Watty
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Watty »

Do not "tip your hand".

Even if the interview goes well and they like you the company you are interviewing with is likely 3 to 6 other people depending on the job and they may like someone else even more. There may be less than a 1 in 3 chance you will actually get a job offer even if you are well qualified for the job.

Even if you get a good offer there might be something else about the job which will cause you to decline the job offer. You do not want to be pressured to take a job with a new boss you do not like or for a position where you might be expected to be on call 24/7.

Even if you get a good counter offer from your current employer I would be very cautious about accepting it since that rarely works out well and your employer will rightfully start figuring out how to cross train someone so that you are not a critical person. As soon as that person is trained then you may be laid off since they do not need two people to do that job.
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:19 pm I’ve previously hinted that I thought I might be underpaid so it probably would not be a complete shock.
Guess what. If you are being underpaid there is about a 99.9% chance that your employer already knows that and likes it that way. One of the costs of intentionally underpaying your employees is that you will have more turnover but that is just another acceptable business expense to them.

It varies but typically at large companies pay is within a pay band and if you are already at the top of the pay band then you cannot get a 20% pay raise above the pay band so you would need to get a promotion to a higher pay level to get a 20% raise. If you cannot see a promotion like that happening then there is about a 0% chance you will get a 20% pay raise at a large company.

Part of the reason it is set up this way is that if they payed someone 20% above the pay band then the company would be open, rightfully, to discrimination lawsuits if they paid someone else less than you.

If there is not money in the budget for a 20% raise then even if they could give you a 20% raise that might cause a higher level manager to not get their bonus because they missed their budget. It is very unlikely a senior manager will give you a raise if it will risk them not getting their bonus.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by London »

Watty wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:13 am Do not "tip your hand".

Even if the interview goes well and they like you the company you are interviewing with is likely 3 to 6 other people depending on the job and they may like someone else even more. There may be less than a 1 in 3 chance you will actually get a job offer even if you are well qualified for the job.

Even if you get a good offer there might be something else about the job which will cause you to decline the job offer. You do not want to be pressured to take a job with a new boss you do not like or for a position where you might be expected to be on call 24/7.

Even if you get a good counter offer from your current employer I would be very cautious about accepting it since that rarely works out well and your employer will rightfully start figuring out how to cross train someone so that you are not a critical person. As soon as that person is trained then you may be laid off since they do not need two people to do that job.
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:19 pm I’ve previously hinted that I thought I might be underpaid so it probably would not be a complete shock.

Part of the reason it is set up this way is that if they payed someone 20% above the pay band then the company would be open, rightfully, to discrimination lawsuits if they paid someone else less than you.
Completely disagree with this statement. There’s lot of variation in compensation for people who have ostensibly the same job. As long as that variability isn’t based on a protected scenario (age, race, etc), there’s no grounds for a successful lawsuit.
8301
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by 8301 »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:03 am
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:22 pm Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
Thanks. This holds true for 20% at a megacorp? Seems wheels turn slowly and lots of approvals would be needed. Maybe just too unrealistic.
Every company can match an offer quickly if they want to. You may not be someone they are willing to move fast enough for.
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
bluebirdy
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by bluebirdy »

Do not tip your hand without a legitimate attractive offer in hand.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

galawdawg wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:16 am
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:45 pm
Morford wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:33 pm I wouldn’t expect a counter offer from your current company - so plan accordingly
I fully expect one, but I won’t count on it.
I'm not sure why you would expect one. Your previous thread on getting a raise from your current employer mentioned how many people left because they got better offers making 25%+ more at other companies. If your employer was interested in retaining employees who receive competing offers, some of those who left for "greener pastures" would not have left. And you already asked your current employer for a raise and received 7.5%. That, in my opinion, reflects what your company is willing to do to retain you at the present time.

As others have noted, don't waste any energy right now on what you might do if you get an offer from another company. Continue the interview process and see what unfolds. If you get a significantly better offer and wish to consider staying at your current employer, simply advise them of that offer and ask them if they can match it. Either they'll make you an offer or they'll wish you good luck in your new position.

If you do receive another job offer and plan on asking your current employer for another raise, wait to accept that new position until you have given your current employer an opportunity to retain you and you find out whether that is successful. You don't want to burn a bridge with that potential new employer by accepting a position only to change your mind and decide to stay at your current company.

I'd also suggest you have your ducks in a row before you give notice or ask your current employer for another raise so that if you are "walked", you are prepared. If I had an employee who approached me for a raise, received 7.5%, and then came back to the well a month or two later asking for more because they had another job lined up, I'd accept their resignation and that person would be a former employee by day's end. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. :beer
There are a few reasons I expect a counter. I am higher up than the people that previously left. I am more involved with customer interface and strategy. They were very important, I am vital, especially now that all of my potential are replacements are gone.

I wouldn’t bring an offer I don’t plan on taking, so there will be no need to “walk” me anywhere. If they don’t budge I’m gone anyhow. However, I suspect my turnover will be much more important than any power flex. But we will see. I am on to my 3rd interview with my potential new employer to meet the team.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

8301 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:03 am
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:22 pm Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
Thanks. This holds true for 20% at a megacorp? Seems wheels turn slowly and lots of approvals would be needed. Maybe just too unrealistic.
Every company can match an offer quickly if they want to. You may not be someone they are willing to move fast enough for.
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
Maybe, but we’ve been unsuccessful at replacing the last three employees for going on 9 months now, even offering 100% remote. This is a bit of a niche field. I think the last year has been eye opening. Also, another manager has told me that there is pressure to start spending more on current projects because it’s hurting their chance of a bonus if we don’t charge the hours allocated. If I am gone, they are going to be spending even less on these projects because we are running very low on qualified resources. And yes, this is a regulated field where resources must be qualified for certain tasks so you can’t plug in a new hire and wish them luck.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Watty wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:13 am
Guess what. If you are being underpaid there is about a 99.9% chance that your employer already knows that and likes it that way. One of the costs of intentionally underpaying your employees is that you will have more turnover but that is just another acceptable business expense to them.

It varies but typically at large companies pay is within a pay band and if you are already at the top of the pay band then you cannot get a 20% pay raise above the pay band so you would need to get a promotion to a higher pay level to get a 20% raise. If you cannot see a promotion like that happening then there is about a 0% chance you will get a 20% pay raise at a large company.
submitted for a promotion, but it’s a controlled title and requires a technical review of my industry reputation so will take some time. I’m thinking that maybe that process is expedited and I am maybe pushed a bit further into the next pay and that I might have been otherwise. If not, maybe it’s just time to move on.

The kicker is that I am the acting manager for the next 2 weeks so I may have to break the news to myself :happy
8301
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by 8301 »

sapper1371 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:20 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 am
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:03 am
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:28 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:22 pm Once you have an offer you would be happy with taking, you can go to your manager and try to negotiate a raise. Every company can match an offer in 24-48hrs if they want to. Do not tip your hand until you're in a position to walk.
Thanks. This holds true for 20% at a megacorp? Seems wheels turn slowly and lots of approvals would be needed. Maybe just too unrealistic.
Every company can match an offer quickly if they want to. You may not be someone they are willing to move fast enough for.
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
Maybe, but we’ve been unsuccessful at replacing the last three employees for going on 9 months now, even offering 100% remote. This is a bit of a niche field. I think the last year has been eye opening. Also, another manager has told me that there is pressure to start spending more on current projects because it’s hurting their chance of a bonus if we don’t charge the hours allocated. If I am gone, they are going to be spending even less on these projects because we are running very low on qualified resources. And yes, this is a regulated field where resources must be qualified for certain tasks so you can’t plug in a new hire and wish them luck.
One of the sure signs of a dead end job: nobody leaves for another job. The job requires a special set of skills which find no use outside the current employer.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Glockenspiel »

I did this same thing in December.

Was overburdened at my job as a civil engineer. Was recruited by former colleague to new company. Got an offer for 30% more than current salary. Told my current company I was taking the position and quitting. Current job really went to bat for me because they didn't want to lose me, and gave me a 30% salary bump, a title promotion, plus a larger annual target bonus and a big retention bonus.

You don't really have maximum leverage until you receive an offer. I would wait to tell your current company until you receive an offer. If they value you, they will do anything in their power to keep you. They do this all the time. Giving someone a counter offer can be done in 24-48 hours if they value you.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Glockenspiel »

8301 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 am
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
Not really. Not without trying to pluck someone from another company by throwing them tons of money. In my field, it's getting darn near impossible to get people to apply for our open positions that pay $80-$150k.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

8301 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:13 pm One of the sure signs of a dead end job: nobody leaves for another job. The job requires a special set of skills which find no use outside the current employer.
Not following the point here. As mentioned, many people have left for similar roles at other employers. It’s a niche field, but certainly not a dead one. Also, this is a field that is more competitive than others which I think is challenging the defined pay band since it’s somewhat of a hot skill.

So I’d say it’s anything but a dead end job :sharebeer
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Glockenspiel wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:46 pm I did this same thing in December.

Was overburdened at my job as a civil engineer. Was recruited by former colleague to new company. Got an offer for 30% more than current salary. Told my current company I was taking the position and quitting. Current job really went to bat for me because they didn't want to lose me, and gave me a 30% salary bump, a title promotion, plus a larger annual target bonus and a big retention bonus.

You don't really have maximum leverage until you receive an offer. I would wait to tell your current company until you receive an offer. If they value you, they will do anything in their power to keep you. They do this all the time. Giving someone a counter offer can be done in 24-48 hours if they value you.
Just along the lines of what I was thinking. Thanks for the feedback!
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Glockenspiel wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:49 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 am
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
Not really. Not without trying to pluck someone from another company by throwing them tons of money. In my field, it's getting darn near impossible to get people to apply for our open positions that pay $80-$150k.
Exactly. We have 7 positions currently open that pay in that similar range and we have had zero qualified applicants in the last few months. Not everyone is as easily replaceable as management would like to believe.

And the good thing for me right now is that the inability to fill those positions is directly impacting their bonus potential!
Glockenspiel
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Glockenspiel »

sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:12 am
Glockenspiel wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:49 pm
8301 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:30 am
Also don't forget that almost everybody is readily replaceable. Try to moderate the sense of importance and empowerment simply because another employer shows an interest in you. It may be on a routine shopping mission for another replacement employee.
Not really. Not without trying to pluck someone from another company by throwing them tons of money. In my field, it's getting darn near impossible to get people to apply for our open positions that pay $80-$150k.
Exactly. We have 7 positions currently open that pay in that similar range and we have had zero qualified applicants in the last few months. Not everyone is as easily replaceable as management would like to believe.

And the good thing for me right now is that the inability to fill those positions is directly impacting their bonus potential!
Yeah, I'm trying to hire civil engineers with 4 to 20 years of experience and unless you actively target someone employed by another firm and reach out to them, there's just nobody out there looking for a job, and so we get almost no qualified applicants for months on end, even though we advertise the positions on many different sites.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:02 pm
Yeah, I'm trying to hire civil engineers with 4 to 20 years of experience and unless you actively target someone employed by another firm and reach out to them, there's just nobody out there looking for a job, and so we get almost no qualified applicants for months on end, even though we advertise the positions on many different sites.
Yes, engineering here as well, and same thing where you basically need to elicit specific individuals. I noticed that our job postings said there were multiple applicants on the various recruiting sites and was told that none of them have even made it through export control so those numbers are deceiving.

They are going to have to pay a premium to replace me, so why not consider closing the gap to keep me? I declined to interview for a management position when my last boss left because I just don’t think like they do, or at least I can help but say what I am thinking which would just get me in trouble!
Jags4186
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Jags4186 »

sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:15 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:02 pm
Yeah, I'm trying to hire civil engineers with 4 to 20 years of experience and unless you actively target someone employed by another firm and reach out to them, there's just nobody out there looking for a job, and so we get almost no qualified applicants for months on end, even though we advertise the positions on many different sites.
Yes, engineering here as well, and same thing where you basically need to elicit specific individuals. I noticed that our job postings said there were multiple applicants on the various recruiting sites and was told that none of them have even made it through export control so those numbers are deceiving.

They are going to have to pay a premium to replace me, so why not consider closing the gap to keep me? I declined to interview for a management position when my last boss left because I just don’t think like they do, or at least I can help but say what I am thinking which would just get me in trouble!
They very well may. But they may not. There are a bunch of reasons why they wouldn't:

1) policy of not doing this either at all or at your level
2) word gets out to other workers and they start attempting to do similar
3) fear that you will just leverage your new higher salary into a new position elsewhere. most people who take a counter offer leave within a year anyway
4) budget owner/HR won't play ball
5) someone in the org just doesn't like you

For whatever reason, most companies are simply willing to pay new hires more than current employees.
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Watty
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Watty »

sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:10 am
Glockenspiel wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:46 pm I did this same thing in December.

Was overburdened at my job as a civil engineer. Was recruited by former colleague to new company. Got an offer for 30% more than current salary. Told my current company I was taking the position and quitting. Current job really went to bat for me because they didn't want to lose me, and gave me a 30% salary bump, a title promotion, plus a larger annual target bonus and a big retention bonus.

You don't really have maximum leverage until you receive an offer. I would wait to tell your current company until you receive an offer. If they value you, they will do anything in their power to keep you. They do this all the time. Giving someone a counter offer can be done in 24-48 hours if they value you.
Just along the lines of what I was thinking. Thanks for the feedback!
It is also usually possible and common to schedule a week or two time off between jobs. Once you are out the door the reality of you leaving may really set in and they may realize that that need to seriously beat your other offer to get you back, not just match it.

At some point though you should really get a contract and have a lawyer review it even if that is not normal in your position. That can cover things like future severance and bonuses.

All that may be wishful thinking though. Any management team should have at least a general contingency plan in place for when people leave unexpectedly. If you can go on vacation you may not be as indispensable as you might think you are. Before I retired while I was working there were at least a half a dozen times when we had an unplanned staff meeting to announce that someone had died unexpectedly, was in the hospital for an uncertain period of time, quit without notice, etc. The company always survived. Turnover is normal and few people will work in their current jobs until they retire.
JayB
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by JayB »

Years ago, I tried to leverage a higher paying job offer to get more pay with my existing employer. The existing employer was willing to come close to matching it, however, they refused to offer a contractual guarantee that I would not be laid off within a year or two. So out the door I went.
exigent
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by exigent »

Don't attempt to use an offer elsewhere as leverage if you're not prepared to act on it. If they call your bluff, your credibility will be shot and your current employer will know that they don't have to do much to keep you around.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Watty wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:33 pm All that may be wishful thinking though. Any management team should have at least a general contingency plan in place for when people leave unexpectedly. If you can go on vacation you may not be as indispensable as you might think you are. Before I retired while I was working there were at least a half a dozen times when we had an unplanned staff meeting to announce that someone had died unexpectedly, was in the hospital for an uncertain period of time, quit without notice, etc. The company always survived. Turnover is normal and few people will work in their current jobs until they retire.
I work on large projects that last several years so vacations can be planned around most work. They used to try and have a “mentor/mentee” relationship on all major projects. My mentee is one of those that left so their contingency likely left with him.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

Watty wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:33 pm It is also usually possible and common to schedule a week or two time off between jobs. Once you are out the door the reality of you leaving may really set in and they may realize that that need to seriously beat your other offer to get you back, not just match it.
Yeah, I really really want to avoid accepting a position and then declining it if my current company comes back after I leave. That burns a bridge with the new employer and like you said, current employer maybe just wants me back long enough to properly replace me. Really think that if I were to accept I’d be all in with the new company.
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

exigent wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:29 pm Don't attempt to use an offer elsewhere as leverage if you're not prepared to act on it. If they call your bluff, your credibility will be shot and your current employer will know that they don't have to do much to keep you around.
Thanks. I’d never bring an offer I wasn’t willing to take.
tonyclifton
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by tonyclifton »

sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:13 pm
exigent wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:29 pm Don't attempt to use an offer elsewhere as leverage if you're not prepared to act on it. If they call your bluff, your credibility will be shot and your current employer will know that they don't have to do much to keep you around.
Thanks. I’d never bring an offer I wasn’t willing to take.
You seem very confident in all manner of this situation. You got this! Good luck!
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sapper1371
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

tonyclifton wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:45 pm
sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:13 pm
exigent wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:29 pm Don't attempt to use an offer elsewhere as leverage if you're not prepared to act on it. If they call your bluff, your credibility will be shot and your current employer will know that they don't have to do much to keep you around.
Thanks. I’d never bring an offer I wasn’t willing to take.
You seem very confident in all manner of this situation. You got this! Good luck!
Thanks. I’ll post how it ends up playing out in the event anyone else is in a similar situation for at least one reference point.
simas
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by simas »

sapper1371 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:11 pm
Thanks. I’ll post how it ends up playing out in the event anyone else is in a similar situation for at least one reference point.
sounds good. You are clearly unsatisfied with your current working arrangement (of which comp is a major factor) and searching for alternatives, good for you. as for whether it would work or not, there is zero that people unfamiliar with your specific situation (your 'strength' within your chain of command, your perceived loyalty, how much your team is willing to go to bat for you, etc) can advice. Above a certain level, these things are a team sport, I have been in situations where I found various ways to help and regard those 'in the team' and also seen and been in many situations where the same request would be seen as extortion attempt, disloyalty, and don't let the door hit you in as you head out response.
Noone likes surprises in this in all successful cases, it was carefully prepared, and communicated and in some ways, it was straight up pay (by a promotion bump), in other cases it was equity which is even more generous than any salary bump. Never it was 'match this or I am walking' at any management/leadership level. if you come to that, please walk and dont waste anyone's time type of response.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by quantAndHold »

If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by 8foot7 »

quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
I generally agree. Once folks start looking, they tend to keep looking. An object in motion stays in motion and all that.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:02 am
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
I generally agree. Once folks start looking, they tend to keep looking. An object in motion stays in motion and all that.
You forgot the 2nd half of that law of motion. A counter that closed the gap changes the equation. The law states it will stay in motion until counter force acts on that object 😁
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quantAndHold
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by quantAndHold »

sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
I wouldn’t blame the employee at all for interviewing, but the ship has sailed. Any employee that’s entirely focused on money like that is already out the door, either now or the next time they get in a twist about something. They might as well go now.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Normchad »

quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 pm
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
I wouldn’t blame the employee at all for interviewing, but the ship has sailed. Any employee that’s entirely focused on money like that is already out the door, either now or the next time they get in a twist about something. They might as well go now.
I agree with you QuantAndHold. As a manager, at this point, I assume they are a lost cause and will already start planning for the future without them.

As an employee though, the OP is absolutely doing the sensible thing here. No doubt about it.

Great employees can always find more money elsewhere. If they want the most money, they have to hop. And as employers, we know that they just need to find one better offer and they’re gone.
8301
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by 8301 »

Normchad wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:04 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 pm
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
I wouldn’t blame the employee at all for interviewing, but the ship has sailed. Any employee that’s entirely focused on money like that is already out the door, either now or the next time they get in a twist about something. They might as well go now.
I agree with you QuantAndHold. As a manager, at this point, I assume they are a lost cause and will already start planning for the future without them.

As an employee though, the OP is absolutely doing the sensible thing here. No doubt about it.

Great employees can always find more money elsewhere. If they want the most money, they have to hop. And as employers, we know that they just need to find one better offer and they’re gone.
If you are not happy with the current employer and have an offer which you like, just leave without trying to play a game.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 pm
I wouldn’t blame the employee at all for interviewing, but the ship has sailed. Any employee that’s entirely focused on money like that is already out the door, either now or the next time they get in a twist about something. They might as well go now.
About a year after I started working I was called into my managers office and informed that I had received a “compression raise” since the market had shifted and the new hires were given starting salaries at or above what the people hired the previous year were receiving (they might have softened the wording, but that was the point).

Prior to this, I got wind of this and of course was not happy about it. Had they not done this, I might have left 14 years ago.

My point is, I don’t think the ship has sailed if they would like to close the gap. After all, I obviously didn’t leave after they did this before so why would they think it’s much different t this time?
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by London »

8301 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:42 pm
Normchad wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:04 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 pm
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 am If someone got a 7+% raise out of me, and then came back right away demanding a match for an offer they just got, I would assume they were going to quit within 3-6 months anyway. Happy employees don’t shake down their employers like that. I’d wish them well and make plans to go on without them.
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
I wouldn’t blame the employee at all for interviewing, but the ship has sailed. Any employee that’s entirely focused on money like that is already out the door, either now or the next time they get in a twist about something. They might as well go now.
I agree with you QuantAndHold. As a manager, at this point, I assume they are a lost cause and will already start planning for the future without them.

As an employee though, the OP is absolutely doing the sensible thing here. No doubt about it.

Great employees can always find more money elsewhere. If they want the most money, they have to hop. And as employers, we know that they just need to find one better offer and they’re gone.
If you are not happy with the current employer and have an offer which you like, just leave without trying to play a game.
Not sure why you would take this as an offense. I have hundreds of employees. I assume they are all free agents at any time. While I don’t like counter offers, I’ll do it if I need the skill set. I just assume they will eventually leave anyway. There’s no “game” on either side.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Glockenspiel »

sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm
What if that employee just found out that you offered someone with half their experience their same salary because the market for that skill is tight? Would you blame them for entertaining an external offer to determine if they are indeed “competitively compensated”? I don’t think I am demanding anything, more allowing them an opportunity to close a gap if they would like me to stay. If not, at least I know 100% where I stand.
I'm with you here. In my recent experience, I was fully willing to walk, but my current employer asked if I was open to hearing what they had to offer. I stated I was open to it, and told them what my offer was from the other company. They came back to me the next morning with an offer that was above my other offer, a large retention bonus after 3 months, a larger annual bonus target, and a promotion.

It was very difficult to walk away from that, since I loved the team that I was building. Good engineers are so difficult to find. So much of their value comes in the marketing opportunities that come from having that person on staff. You have good leverage here. Just be honest with your employer, and maintain a good, honest relationship in your discussion with them.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by Glockenspiel »

sapper1371 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:30 pm
I generally agree. Once folks start looking, they tend to keep looking. An object in motion stays in motion and all that.
You forgot the 2nd half of that law of motion. A counter that closed the gap changes the equation. The law states it will stay in motion until counter force acts on that object 😁
[/quote]

100%. Some of the responses you're getting are assuming the job market is soft and it's easy to find good talent. It's almost impossible to hire good talent nowadays and smart employers will do whatever they can to keep their talented staff.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by sapper1371 »

If anyone is interested in the conclusion, I was offered a position by another company which was 20% higher than my current salary. I set a meeting with my manager and told them I was offered another position but that I had not yet accepted it.

My manager thanked me for giving them the opportunity to see what they could do. Basically agreed we were below market as evidenced by offers like this the lack of being able to recruit replacements. She actually said she didn’t blame me.

24hrs later I was notified that management and HR had come up with a plan that included the following:

Promotion with 10% raise
Hot skill bonus of 10%
Retention bonus paid out over 3 years

What is most interesting is that the hot skill bonus will also be extended to 15 of my colleagues as managements plan to stabilize the group. This will allow them to increase the compensation in outgoing offers to attract new talent. This essentially allows the company to pay people with my skill above the company pay band without causing any issues with the overall bands.

I thanked them for what an am sure was a large effort to put this together and asked them for a couple of days to consider. On Saturday (yes on a Saturday) I received a call from a SVP to talk about my future. It was a very positive conversation and meant a lot to me that a person overseeing ~1600 people reached out like that.

I accepted the counter offer because it addressed the underlying issues in my mind. I am very hopeful that this will be a good long term solution but the company that I turned down told me they would love to hear from me if anything ever changes.

Overall I think this went way better than I ever could have expected.
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Re: Leveraging Potential Offer

Post by beyou »

sapper1371 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:09 pm
galawdawg wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:16 am
sapper1371 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:45 pm
Morford wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:33 pm I wouldn’t expect a counter offer from your current company - so plan accordingly
I fully expect one, but I won’t count on it.
I'm not sure why you would expect one. Your previous thread on getting a raise from your current employer mentioned how many people left because they got better offers making 25%+ more at other companies. If your employer was interested in retaining employees who receive competing offers, some of those who left for "greener pastures" would not have left. And you already asked your current employer for a raise and received 7.5%. That, in my opinion, reflects what your company is willing to do to retain you at the present time.

As others have noted, don't waste any energy right now on what you might do if you get an offer from another company. Continue the interview process and see what unfolds. If you get a significantly better offer and wish to consider staying at your current employer, simply advise them of that offer and ask them if they can match it. Either they'll make you an offer or they'll wish you good luck in your new position.

If you do receive another job offer and plan on asking your current employer for another raise, wait to accept that new position until you have given your current employer an opportunity to retain you and you find out whether that is successful. You don't want to burn a bridge with that potential new employer by accepting a position only to change your mind and decide to stay at your current company.

I'd also suggest you have your ducks in a row before you give notice or ask your current employer for another raise so that if you are "walked", you are prepared. If I had an employee who approached me for a raise, received 7.5%, and then came back to the well a month or two later asking for more because they had another job lined up, I'd accept their resignation and that person would be a former employee by day's end. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. :beer
There are a few reasons I expect a counter. I am higher up than the people that previously left. I am more involved with customer interface and strategy. They were very important, I am vital, especially now that all of my potential are replacements are gone.

I wouldn’t bring an offer I don’t plan on taking, so there will be no need to “walk” me anywhere. If they don’t budge I’m gone anyhow. However, I suspect my turnover will be much more important than any power flex. But we will see. I am on to my 3rd interview with my potential new employer to meet the team.
The graveyards are full of vital people.

And I know someone who just this last few weeks tipped their hand and then fired before getting an offer. They had lots of customer contact, coworkers were shocked that one of their more dedicated serious people was fired.
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