Witness signature on Will?
- Indianrock
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:40 am
Witness signature on Will?
Note: we've liquidated all real estate just for the purpose of making our Wills simple and minimal effort for my son, the executor.
Did you get your Will signed by witnesses?
What I'm trying to do is get things to where our Wills only divide up household items ( easier for us since we don't own real estate). This task will be complete this week.
We're in Washington state now and I think our former state, California is the same where if all bank accounts etc have Pay on Death beneficiaries ( which take precedence over anything the Will says) , and if any assets not covered by POD are worth less than $100k, you don't need probate. ( and no real estate)
To me that means the only person who will ever see your Will, besides yourself, is your executor.
Did you get your Will signed by witnesses?
What I'm trying to do is get things to where our Wills only divide up household items ( easier for us since we don't own real estate). This task will be complete this week.
We're in Washington state now and I think our former state, California is the same where if all bank accounts etc have Pay on Death beneficiaries ( which take precedence over anything the Will says) , and if any assets not covered by POD are worth less than $100k, you don't need probate. ( and no real estate)
To me that means the only person who will ever see your Will, besides yourself, is your executor.
If I was king: once a stock is purchased, you hold it for 30 days.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Yes.
Each state may have rules on how a will should be finalized. You will want to follow them if you want to prevent it from being disregarded by the courts.
Each state may have rules on how a will should be finalized. You will want to follow them if you want to prevent it from being disregarded by the courts.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
You absolutely need to ensure your will is valid in your home state. Yes, my Mom's will never saw daylight since her only 2 assets were TOD to the heirs. However - the future is uncertain. You might win the Lottery, or forget to title a new car. Make sure you have a simple valid will. I would honestly recommend Nolo Press Willmaker in this case - it's legal and cheap. It will tell you whether you need witnesses or a notary or owl feathers.... My estate is in either trust or TOD, but I still have a will and was quite happy with Willmaker.
Salvia Clevelandii "Winifred Gilman" my favorite. YMMV; not a professional advisor.
- Indianrock
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
I have friends who can serve witnesses and I realize that there can be unforeseen circumstances that could lead to a will being inspected by a probate court for example .
But ideally the court never needs to see it.
But ideally the court never needs to see it.
If I was king: once a stock is purchased, you hold it for 30 days.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
I’m unaware of any state which doesn’t require at least one witness and I’m pretty sure they all require two, but could be wrong on the second part.
Except for holographic wills.
Except for holographic wills.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
See Estate of Karter Yu: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/ ... c/2013/322. While not in the U.S., the same could apply in some states.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
To expand on this, individual states have specific requirements on how the witness signatures are to be done. I happened to come across this while researching attorneys this morning - note the court's ruling invalidating the will due to improper witness signatures per state rules and thus declaring the decedent died intestate
https://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/ ... risopn.pdf
- Indianrock
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
If I was king: once a stock is purchased, you hold it for 30 days.
- nisiprius
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
For five hundred dollars, our lawyer drew up two wills, two durable powers of attorney, one declaration of homestead, and a partridge in a pear tree. Just have a lawyer do it. One convenience of having a lawyer doing it is that they can always round up people in the office to be witnesses.
Witnesses need to be "disinterested" parties, meaning not relatives, and rounding up friends can sometimes be a little creepy.
Informal wills may be "legal," but that doesn't mean they will be equally easy to probate. It isn't legal until a court agrees, and you could be into five figures of legal expenses before a court agrees. That's a real number from a real incident in my extended family.
Witnesses need to be "disinterested" parties, meaning not relatives, and rounding up friends can sometimes be a little creepy.
Informal wills may be "legal," but that doesn't mean they will be equally easy to probate. It isn't legal until a court agrees, and you could be into five figures of legal expenses before a court agrees. That's a real number from a real incident in my extended family.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
It is always interesting to see folks who insist on a DIY approach to important legal matters yet lack the most basic knowledge of how to go about that endeavor.
Several have already recommended in OP's other estate related threads that OP seek the services of an attorney. That would be the wise course of action.
Several have already recommended in OP's other estate related threads that OP seek the services of an attorney. That would be the wise course of action.
- ResearchMed
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
jfave33 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
I've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?
At least having a couple of office staffers in an attorney's office seems better. If, umpteen years in the future, someone questions it, the fact that they were employees in the legal office seems more reassuring than "someone who was in the store when we needed a warm body or two..."
I don't know what the realities are about this if ever needed.
RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Search Mr Google for "self-proving will".ResearchMed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:06 pmI've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.jfave33 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: Witness signature on Will?
I did see the other post and know that getting legal advice was discussed. Was it discussed that your plan may only work as you intend if your family dies in the right order or that those surviving are competent to later make changes? For instance, assume son#1 dies first and Mr & Mrs IndianRock do not or can not make changes before they die. Does son#2 inherit everything? Does son#1 have children or a spouse that you would want to inherit all or part of the estate? Are some accounts set up per stirpes but some not so that a random amount would go to son#1’s children. There are many other such circumstances that a lawyer would help you to consider.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
When my FIL passed away our attorney had us do some research to track down the witness, who was a random bank employee. We ended up needing them to sign some kind of additional affidavit. Fortunately they must have cooperated. However, it made me want to use friends rather than a random employee who could be tough to track down.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Another vote to consider Nolo’s Willmaker.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.Makefile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pmAs long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
It would not solve the problem of trying to get a witness to testify thirty years later. They’re likely to be dead or moved or unavailable. The lawyer is likewise likely to be retired.ResearchMed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:06 pmjfave33 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
I've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?
At least having a couple of office staffers in an attorney's office seems better. If, umpteen years in the future, someone questions it, the fact that they were employees in the legal office seems more reassuring than "someone who was in the store when we needed a warm body or two..."
I don't know what the realities are about this if ever needed.
RM
That’s why the self proving affidavit was created. Previously you relied upon the rebuttable presumption. Now it’s pretty difficult to overcome the affidavit.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Interesting. This makes sense. I had a notary who signed as witness on a POA. I questioned it but she was experienced and seemed to have a reasonable explanation.Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pmNo. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.Makefile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pmAs long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Was there a second witness? You can’t notarize your own signature. I’d suggest getting it signed again to ensure formality compliance.Katietsu wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:11 amInteresting. This makes sense. I had a notary who signed as witness on a POA. I questioned it but she was experienced and seemed to have a reasonable explanation.Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pmNo. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.Makefile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pmAs long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
There was a second witness. Despite the form having a place for a second witness, I was pretty sure that my state of residence only required a single witness, so I let it go. But, I agree, I should follow up and verify that all the requirements have been met.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Indianrock,
Consider getting an attorney to do your final papers.
Why?
You don't know what you don't know.
A long time trust officer friend has lots of horror stories about DIY wills.
You only get one chance to get it right...no do overs.
I vote to get an attorney that has done lots of wills that worked.
The attorney will likely coach you on non-will items to fix.
Consider getting an attorney to do your final papers.
Why?
You don't know what you don't know.
A long time trust officer friend has lots of horror stories about DIY wills.
You only get one chance to get it right...no do overs.
I vote to get an attorney that has done lots of wills that worked.
The attorney will likely coach you on non-will items to fix.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Don't all US states recognize self-proving wills by now?
I can't believe people would not go the above route to skip having to track down a witness decades later.
I can't believe people would not go the above route to skip having to track down a witness decades later.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Virginia § 64.2-452. How will may be made self-proved; affidavits of witnesses.
That's what our lawyer did a few months ago. His secretary is a notary and the witnesses were his golfing buddies. They signed affidavits.
We went in to sign the wills, POAs for each of us and for her adult son, and some other stuff, and to have my name put on the deed to her house. I think I paid a grand and change. But we got the good neighbor discount because we met him through our neighbor some time back at their holiday parties.
That's what our lawyer did a few months ago. His secretary is a notary and the witnesses were his golfing buddies. They signed affidavits.
We went in to sign the wills, POAs for each of us and for her adult son, and some other stuff, and to have my name put on the deed to her house. I think I paid a grand and change. But we got the good neighbor discount because we met him through our neighbor some time back at their holiday parties.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
There are ~5 states that give the benefit of a self-proving will without the affidavit (per Nolo). More importantly, a proper Trust can avoid probate (in those states where probate is long/difficult and/or expensive).
Re: Witness signature on Will?
If the Will is done by a law firm; normally, witnesses are also provided.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Wow! Basically, because the witness signatures ended up on the last page, somewhat disconnected, the appellate court declared the will invalid and the estate intestate. I get the feeling things are very chilly in the Morris family.mkc wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:44 pmTo expand on this, individual states have specific requirements on how the witness signatures are to be done. I happened to come across this while researching attorneys this morning - note the court's ruling invalidating the will due to improper witness signatures per state rules and thus declaring the decedent died intestate
https://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/ ... risopn.pdf
This just shows how technical things can be, and even a law office may not get it right.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Perhaps as laypersons we're just confused by the terminology. Notarizing the will maker's signature seems like everything that witnessing it is, and more. Why couldn't a notary just temporarily take off their notary hat and be a witness in the role of person-who-is-conveniently-easy-to-find-and-witnesses-wills.Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pmNo. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.Makefile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pmAs long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
edit: and make it two notaries, each acting as nothing but an independent witness of the will maker's signature (if not clear), and there are your witnesses.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
The will will be witnessed, but the self proving affidavit would fail because the notary can certify that they signed it.Makefile wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:29 pmPerhaps as laypersons we're just confused by the terminology. Notarizing the will maker's signature seems like everything that witnessing it is, and more. Why couldn't a notary just temporarily take off their notary hat and be a witness in the role of person-who-is-conveniently-easy-to-find-and-witnesses-wills.Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pmNo. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.Makefile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pmAs long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?Lee_WSP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pmhttps://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.Indianrock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
Not what the statute says.
edit: and make it two notaries, each acting as nothing but an independent witness of the will maker's signature (if not clear), and there are your witnesses.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Oh! I realize what you are saying now is that a notary can't do double duty both being one of the witnesses and the notary for the signature page. But if you went to the local bar where all the notaries hang out and found three distinct notaries public, two of them could still serve at witnesses and the third be the notary.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
Or grab the secretary or a neighbor or bring your own witness. It’s really easy for an attorney to do the ceremony. We just need to coordinate the notary and grab one extra person.Makefile wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:59 pmOh! I realize what you are saying now is that a notary can't do double duty both being one of the witnesses and the notary for the signature page. But if you went to the local bar where all the notaries hang out and found three distinct notaries public, two of them could still serve at witnesses and the third be the notary.
Re: Witness signature on Will?
When we have done ours, the attorney's had a notary in their office.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?
Our attorney was a notary, and two folks from an office down the hall were the witnesses. Easy peasy.