Witness signature on Will?

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Indianrock
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Witness signature on Will?

Post by Indianrock »

Note: we've liquidated all real estate just for the purpose of making our Wills simple and minimal effort for my son, the executor.

Did you get your Will signed by witnesses?
What I'm trying to do is get things to where our Wills only divide up household items ( easier for us since we don't own real estate). This task will be complete this week.
We're in Washington state now and I think our former state, California is the same where if all bank accounts etc have Pay on Death beneficiaries ( which take precedence over anything the Will says) , and if any assets not covered by POD are worth less than $100k, you don't need probate. ( and no real estate)
To me that means the only person who will ever see your Will, besides yourself, is your executor.
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increment
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by increment »

Yes.

Each state may have rules on how a will should be finalized. You will want to follow them if you want to prevent it from being disregarded by the courts.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by CAsage »

You absolutely need to ensure your will is valid in your home state. Yes, my Mom's will never saw daylight since her only 2 assets were TOD to the heirs. However - the future is uncertain. You might win the Lottery, or forget to title a new car. Make sure you have a simple valid will. I would honestly recommend Nolo Press Willmaker in this case - it's legal and cheap. It will tell you whether you need witnesses or a notary or owl feathers.... My estate is in either trust or TOD, but I still have a will and was quite happy with Willmaker.
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Indianrock
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Indianrock »

I have friends who can serve witnesses and I realize that there can be unforeseen circumstances that could lead to a will being inspected by a probate court for example .
But ideally the court never needs to see it.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

I’m unaware of any state which doesn’t require at least one witness and I’m pretty sure they all require two, but could be wrong on the second part.

Except for holographic wills.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by bsteiner »

Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:00 pm I’m unaware of any state which doesn’t require at least one witness and I’m pretty sure they all require two, but could be wrong on the second part.

Except for holographic wills.
See Estate of Karter Yu: https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/ ... c/2013/322. While not in the U.S., the same could apply in some states.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by mkc »

increment wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:27 pm Yes.

Each state may have rules on how a will should be finalized. You will want to follow them if you want to prevent it from being disregarded by the courts.
To expand on this, individual states have specific requirements on how the witness signatures are to be done. I happened to come across this while researching attorneys this morning - note the court's ruling invalidating the will due to improper witness signatures per state rules and thus declaring the decedent died intestate

https://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/ ... risopn.pdf
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Indianrock
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Indianrock »

It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by nisiprius »

For five hundred dollars, our lawyer drew up two wills, two durable powers of attorney, one declaration of homestead, and a partridge in a pear tree. Just have a lawyer do it. One convenience of having a lawyer doing it is that they can always round up people in the office to be witnesses.

Witnesses need to be "disinterested" parties, meaning not relatives, and rounding up friends can sometimes be a little creepy.

Informal wills may be "legal," but that doesn't mean they will be equally easy to probate. It isn't legal until a court agrees, and you could be into five figures of legal expenses before a court agrees. That's a real number from a real incident in my extended family.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Makefile »

Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by jfave33 »

When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by galawdawg »

It is always interesting to see folks who insist on a DIY approach to important legal matters yet lack the most basic knowledge of how to go about that endeavor.

Several have already recommended in OP's other estate related threads that OP seek the services of an attorney. That would be the wise course of action.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by ResearchMed »

jfave33 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.

I've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?

At least having a couple of office staffers in an attorney's office seems better. If, umpteen years in the future, someone questions it, the fact that they were employees in the legal office seems more reassuring than "someone who was in the store when we needed a warm body or two..."

I don't know what the realities are about this if ever needed.

RM
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by BolderBoy »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:06 pm
jfave33 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.
I've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?
Search Mr Google for "self-proving will".
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Katietsu »

I did see the other post and know that getting legal advice was discussed. Was it discussed that your plan may only work as you intend if your family dies in the right order or that those surviving are competent to later make changes? For instance, assume son#1 dies first and Mr & Mrs IndianRock do not or can not make changes before they die. Does son#2 inherit everything? Does son#1 have children or a spouse that you would want to inherit all or part of the estate? Are some accounts set up per stirpes but some not so that a random amount would go to son#1’s children. There are many other such circumstances that a lawyer would help you to consider.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by aristotelian »

When my FIL passed away our attorney had us do some research to track down the witness, who was a random bank employee. We ended up needing them to sign some kind of additional affidavit. Fortunately they must have cooperated. However, it made me want to use friends rather than a random employee who could be tough to track down.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by waterlife »

Another vote to consider Nolo’s Willmaker.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Makefile wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:06 pm
jfave33 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:08 pm When we had our wills notarized at the ups store they were happy to provide witnesses when they had the staff. I called ahead to make sure when the notary was available and checked they were okay providing witnesses. In the end they asked a customer to help since one staff member was occupied with another customer.

I've always wondered about having "some arbitrary person, previously unknown" to be a witness for an important legal document.
What IF the document is challenged? And then the actual "witness" is challenged?

At least having a couple of office staffers in an attorney's office seems better. If, umpteen years in the future, someone questions it, the fact that they were employees in the legal office seems more reassuring than "someone who was in the store when we needed a warm body or two..."

I don't know what the realities are about this if ever needed.

RM
It would not solve the problem of trying to get a witness to testify thirty years later. They’re likely to be dead or moved or unavailable. The lawyer is likewise likely to be retired.

That’s why the self proving affidavit was created. Previously you relied upon the rebuttable presumption. Now it’s pretty difficult to overcome the affidavit.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Katietsu »

Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pm
Makefile wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.
Interesting. This makes sense. I had a notary who signed as witness on a POA. I questioned it but she was experienced and seemed to have a reasonable explanation.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Katietsu wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:11 am
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pm
Makefile wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.
Interesting. This makes sense. I had a notary who signed as witness on a POA. I questioned it but she was experienced and seemed to have a reasonable explanation.
Was there a second witness? You can’t notarize your own signature. I’d suggest getting it signed again to ensure formality compliance.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Katietsu »

There was a second witness. Despite the form having a place for a second witness, I was pretty sure that my state of residence only required a single witness, so I let it go. But, I agree, I should follow up and verify that all the requirements have been met.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by hudson »

Indianrock,
Consider getting an attorney to do your final papers.
Why?
You don't know what you don't know.
A long time trust officer friend has lots of horror stories about DIY wills.
You only get one chance to get it right...no do overs.
I vote to get an attorney that has done lots of wills that worked.
The attorney will likely coach you on non-will items to fix.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by ncbill »

Don't all US states recognize self-proving wills by now?

I can't believe people would not go the above route to skip having to track down a witness decades later.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by andypanda »

Virginia § 64.2-452. How will may be made self-proved; affidavits of witnesses.

That's what our lawyer did a few months ago. His secretary is a notary and the witnesses were his golfing buddies. They signed affidavits.

We went in to sign the wills, POAs for each of us and for her adult son, and some other stuff, and to have my name put on the deed to her house. I think I paid a grand and change. But we got the good neighbor discount because we met him through our neighbor some time back at their holiday parties.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Big Dog »

ncbill wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:13 pm Don't all US states recognize self-proving wills by now?

I can't believe people would not go the above route to skip having to track down a witness decades later.
There are ~5 states that give the benefit of a self-proving will without the affidavit (per Nolo). More importantly, a proper Trust can avoid probate (in those states where probate is long/difficult and/or expensive).
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by wander »

If the Will is done by a law firm; normally, witnesses are also provided.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Tubes »

mkc wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:44 pm
increment wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:27 pm Yes.

Each state may have rules on how a will should be finalized. You will want to follow them if you want to prevent it from being disregarded by the courts.
To expand on this, individual states have specific requirements on how the witness signatures are to be done. I happened to come across this while researching attorneys this morning - note the court's ruling invalidating the will due to improper witness signatures per state rules and thus declaring the decedent died intestate

https://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/ ... risopn.pdf
Wow! Basically, because the witness signatures ended up on the last page, somewhat disconnected, the appellate court declared the will invalid and the estate intestate. I get the feeling things are very chilly in the Morris family.

This just shows how technical things can be, and even a law office may not get it right.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Makefile »

Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pm
Makefile wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.
Perhaps as laypersons we're just confused by the terminology. Notarizing the will maker's signature seems like everything that witnessing it is, and more. Why couldn't a notary just temporarily take off their notary hat and be a witness in the role of person-who-is-conveniently-easy-to-find-and-witnesses-wills.
edit: and make it two notaries, each acting as nothing but an independent witness of the will maker's signature (if not clear), and there are your witnesses.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Makefile wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:29 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:18 pm
Makefile wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:57 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:34 pm
Indianrock wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:32 pm It appears that here in Washington State you can have the Will notarized instead of witnessed. Our insurance agent will do this for free -- easier than hassling my friends.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx ... CW%2011.20.

Not what the statute says.
As long as you had two notaries notarize simultaneously (I assume your objection was to the implication that one notary could substitute for two witnesses) wouldn't it work, notaries arguably being particularly suitable witnesses?
No. Notaries cannot notarize their own signature and be a witness.
Perhaps as laypersons we're just confused by the terminology. Notarizing the will maker's signature seems like everything that witnessing it is, and more. Why couldn't a notary just temporarily take off their notary hat and be a witness in the role of person-who-is-conveniently-easy-to-find-and-witnesses-wills.
edit: and make it two notaries, each acting as nothing but an independent witness of the will maker's signature (if not clear), and there are your witnesses.
The will will be witnessed, but the self proving affidavit would fail because the notary can certify that they signed it.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Makefile »

Lee_WSP wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:52 pm The will will be witnessed, but the self proving affidavit would fail because the notary can certify that they signed it.
Oh! I realize what you are saying now is that a notary can't do double duty both being one of the witnesses and the notary for the signature page. But if you went to the local bar where all the notaries hang out and found three distinct notaries public, two of them could still serve at witnesses and the third be the notary.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Makefile wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:52 pm The will will be witnessed, but the self proving affidavit would fail because the notary can certify that they signed it.
Oh! I realize what you are saying now is that a notary can't do double duty both being one of the witnesses and the notary for the signature page. But if you went to the local bar where all the notaries hang out and found three distinct notaries public, two of them could still serve at witnesses and the third be the notary.
Or grab the secretary or a neighbor or bring your own witness. It’s really easy for an attorney to do the ceremony. We just need to coordinate the notary and grab one extra person.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by afan »

When we have done ours, the attorney's had a notary in their office.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by RudyS »

Our attorney was a notary, and two folks from an office down the hall were the witnesses. Easy peasy.
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Re: Witness signature on Will?

Post by Tubes »

RudyS wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:30 pm Our attorney was a notary, and two folks from an office down the hall were the witnesses. Easy peasy.
This is pretty typical.
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