Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

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stoptothink
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by stoptothink »

RobLyons wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:39 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:05 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:42 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:18 am
RobLyons wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:59 am Plugging in and unplugging every day is just another task I'd rather not do
Trust me on this, it becomes muscle memory, just like taking off your seatbelt before you get out of the car. Depending on your use case, you might not need to do this daily; I generally don’t.
....and plug in every day is a bit like buying gas for your ICE every week. It depends on how much you drive. I plug in every 6-10 days.
The amount of work to fill up at a gas station vs plugging and unplugging an EV at home has been debated to the point of locking threads before and just isn't an actionable reason to choose one over the other, at least not compared to not having access to home charging or level 1 vs level 2 charging.

Well I wasn't looking for a debate I was just stating my opinion and everyone piled on. But my own experience was this:

I once owned a Chevy Volt. I live in the northeast. I do not have a garage and don't have room to build one. The charge port would get frozen during cold weather (December through February). Maybe some manufacturers have a warming mechanism ? or something now but the Volt did not and trying to scrape and dethaw a charge port that's stuck to the car and actively charging or just stuck closed is labor intensive and nerve racking.

That vs I don't even get out of my car as the gas station down the street still has a guy that pumps the gas for me once every 3 weeks.
No labor.
No brainer.
EVs certainly are not the answer for everybody at this point. If you don't have a garage or at least carport (which is the majority of households in my area), IMO I can't even imagine it being a viable option as your only car. Most of us are talking as if everybody is in the exact same situation as us.
neilpilot
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by neilpilot »

RobLyons wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:39 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:05 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:42 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:18 am
RobLyons wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:59 am Plugging in and unplugging every day is just another task I'd rather not do
Trust me on this, it becomes muscle memory, just like taking off your seatbelt before you get out of the car. Depending on your use case, you might not need to do this daily; I generally don’t.
....and plug in every day is a bit like buying gas for your ICE every week. It depends on how much you drive. I plug in every 6-10 days.
The amount of work to fill up at a gas station vs plugging and unplugging an EV at home has been debated to the point of locking threads before and just isn't an actionable reason to choose one over the other, at least not compared to not having access to home charging or level 1 vs level 2 charging.

Well I wasn't looking for a debate I was just stating my opinion and everyone piled on. But my own experience was this:

I once owned a Chevy Volt. I live in the northeast. I do not have a garage and don't have room to build one. The charge port would get frozen during cold weather (December through February). Maybe some manufacturers have a warming mechanism ? or something now but the Volt did not and trying to scrape and dethaw a charge port that's stuck to the car and actively charging or just stuck closed is labor intensive and nerve racking.

That vs I don't even get out of my car as the gas station down the street still has a guy that pumps the gas for me once every 3 weeks.
No labor.
No brainer.
I can visualize how, or even understand why, you would “dethaw a charge port” .
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First-time EV driver, long-time hybrid & conventional gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). While usually not a fan of prepaid anything, this is worth every upfront penny in my mind.
Last edited by SchruteBucks on Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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bwalling
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by bwalling »

Home Stretch wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First, time EV driver, long-time hybrid & convention gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). Worth every upfront penny in my mid.
I love my 3, not buying gas, and not having most of the maintenance. However, be forewarned: you're probably going to buy tires more frequently. Very heavy car on performance tires means short life.
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Yes, I heard that about the tires…and they are not cheap. But, that expense comes out of my Entertainment budget, since the performance aspects of the MYP are for my pure joy :P

Zero to 60 in 3+ Mississippi’s is exhilarating :beer
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StewedCarrot
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by StewedCarrot »

alfaspider wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:57 pm Speaking as a gearhead, I disagree. There may be nothing on the motor side, but there's a lot that can be done with brakes/suspension/aero/interior. The Model 3 actually has pretty good aftermarket performance/tuning support (by far the best for EVs).
Fair point. I'd not thought about the suspension or personalization angles.
harikaried
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by harikaried »

bwalling wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:52 amyou're probably going to buy tires more frequently
Oh good point. I'm actually currently getting a free tire rotation at the place where I got "regular" / non-foam tires for both our 3 and Y. We don't make use of the performance of either car and drive in "Chill," but treads seem to go faster than the expected lifetime of these tires. Fortunately, this place prorates the "missing" warranty miles when buying a new set.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by BrandonBogle »

bwalling wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:52 am
Home Stretch wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First, time EV driver, long-time hybrid & convention gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). Worth every upfront penny in my mid.
I love my 3, not buying gas, and not having most of the maintenance. However, be forewarned: you're probably going to buy tires more frequently. Very heavy car on performance tires means short life.
I've had a Model S for 8 years now. I've bought replacement tires twice. Each time at about 35k miles. But then I don't drive my car like a racer and I don't have the performance version.
Cycle
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by Cycle »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:45 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:34 am
hunoraut wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:09 am
Cycle wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pm The difference between an ICE car and EV car are marginal, like u put your foot down and it goes.
Which ICE and EV cars have you driven?

The difference is much larger than that.

The utter silence, supreme smoothness, prodigious and instant power delivery is a vastly different experience than a traditional car. And extremely palpable on every drive.

My previous car had a BMW I6 twin-turbo and ZF 8 speed transmission, which is a fantastic drivetrain in its own right…but the sensation of a (equivalently priced) 400hp+ EV gloding down the road almost feels like teleportation.
Cycle got you to take the bait :D
That was an odd post, not just because of the EV statement. I agree an EV is a totally different experience, although same may not prefer it (after having driven many EVs, I'm not sure myself).

I absolutely love my e-bike, but it's not like some insane difference from an acoustic bike. Not to mention mopeds, scooters, and motorcycles exist; many e-bikes are "moped style", which actually makes them closer to a moped/motorcycle than a bike - nobody uses the peddles.
Depends how you define performance. Track performance or driving some curvy highway like hwy 1, there will absolutely be a huge benefit from certain EV cars. Sort of an irrelevant use case though for most people, especially me in the Midwest, and a sports cars can be rented. My performance equivalence statement is strictly limited to transportation efficiency.

When I take a road bike to work, If I am putting out lance Armstrong effort with double rbc transfusions I might be able to make it there in 1.5 hours. 2 hours if I lollygag. When I take my ebike, I can get there in an hour, faster if I want to break a sweat. That's a 50% improvement, which is substantive performance improvement from electrification. But within a few miles, I don't see such dramatic performance gains since a lot of trip time is waiting at traffic signals, so I usually just use my acoustic bike around town. This is why they say ebike trips replace car trips, bc they make slightly longer bike rides really quick and effortless.

If performance on a car is defined by how quickly one can complete a race legally, like my commute, switching to a Tesla model S plaid from an average ice car will save me less than a minute. That's like a 2% improvement, which I'd say is insubstantial.

As for Ice cars I've driven, I've never sat behind the wheel of one. I did get a ride home from work in a Tesla model S one time when I missed my bus. Compared to the air soft suspension of my express coach bus, let me say I was less than thrilled being crammed in the back seat of a bumpy and loud Tesla.

I don't have a car of my own, but my wife sometimes lets me use her 248hp V-6 Honda Odyssey, which can get up the speed limit much quicker than the other vans I owned in the past like the GMC safari, Ford Windstar, or Mercury villager. The Odyssey has a slightly shorter wheelbase than most vans while being longer overall, and despite this length manages to to have a pretty rigid feel while cornering.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way
hunoraut
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by hunoraut »

Cycle wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:03 pm Depends how you define performance. Track performance or driving some curvy highway like hwy 1, there will absolutely be a huge benefit from certain EV cars. Sort of an irrelevant use case though for most people, especially me in the Midwest, and a sports cars can be rented. My performance equivalence statement is strictly limited to transportation efficiency.

If performance on a car is defined by how quickly one can complete a race legally, like my commute, switching to a Tesla model S plaid from an average ice car will save me less than a minute. That's like a 2% improvement, which I'd say is insubstantial.
Performance, defined by you as end-to-end transport time, is not the primary or secondary reason we advocate for 1 type of car over another. You want the quickest driven commute? hire an Uber. Want the quickest driven commute per dollar? Buy the cheapest functioning used car listed.

An EV zooms down the road silently without hesitation, lag, jerkiness, or seemingly limits. That eery zippiness is its own kind of fun. A combustion car that barks and roars and kicks you with each shift is really fun, too. The EV is its own flavor of fun.

An example of a *real world* benefit is one that is not immediately obvious on paper to most. Its that theres no need to 'warm up' the motor, and no mechanical guilt of driving the car short distances without bringing the car to temperature (resulting in various long term issues). No need to be cognizant of 'keeping it easy' on the initial drive. Like if you need to repark your car. Just press a button and do move it, as if a golf cart. If you want to pre-cool your cabin with AC before you set in, you can do it through a phone, and without needing to open the garage door to vent out the exhaust fumes. As they are more computer-centric than traditional cars, the nav/entertainment system tends to be instantly available much quicker than most cars where nav/entertainment is on a separate, lesser-prioritized computer system.

It's a lot of these small things in accumulation that make it a pleasure to operate.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by TheOscarGuy »

Home Stretch wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:00 pm Yes, I heard that about the tires…and they are not cheap. But, that expense comes out of my Entertainment budget, since the performance aspects of the MYP are for my pure joy :P

Zero to 60 in 3+ Mississippi’s is exhilarating :beer
:D I know what you mean. You never get tired of the acceleration
I am still on factory tires. What are replacement tires you have found good?
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

TheOscarGuy wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:01 am
Home Stretch wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:00 pm Yes, I heard that about the tires…and they are not cheap. But, that expense comes out of my Entertainment budget, since the performance aspects of the MYP are for my pure joy :P

Zero to 60 in 3+ Mississippi’s is exhilarating :beer
:D I know what you mean. You never get tired of the acceleration
I am still on factory tires. What are replacement tires you have found good?
Me too - I’m under 100 miles still (took delivery a couple of days ago), but I heard they are not cheap (like $500+ x 4). I drive about 8500 miles per year, so I assume $2k every 2 years, so I will budget $100 a month to be safe. I spend 2x more on subscriptions each month (with Peleton, Netflix, Fubo, Prime, Apple, etc), and this is far more entertaining :). Plus, that is likely the only maintenance costs for a long while. Again, worth every penny…
“The ratio of Stanley Nickels to Schrute Bucks is approximately equal to the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.” - The Office (2007, NBC)
aqan
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aqan »

Lynx310650 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:17 pm We don't really want to sell our two current (and paid off) cars (Acura MDX and RDX)
Sure.. try that. I can tell you from experience that once you get the taste of M3/MY you’ll not touch anything else. The cars drive very different especially when you get used to single pedal drive.
I had the same plan as you and ended up buying two MYs. Good luck.
Kuota Rider
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by Kuota Rider »

StewedCarrot wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:12 pm OP,

Just rent one. Drive it to your heart's content for a week.
  • It's a lousy car for apartment dwellers without a garage. You have to think about recharging.
  • It has a crummy touchscreen interface which requires looking away from the road to use.
  • Paying extra depreciation and insurance for a sometime car is wasteful for someone early in life.

How has something so simple as an electric car become so politicized and two-sided? (like everything else nowadays I guess) Teach me...if you don't like the idea, don't drive one. I was in the mid-west recently and was actually ridiculed simply for the idea of driving an EV. Where I live, 30% of cars are EV''s. Agreed...they are not for everyone but please each to his own. I own a Polestar 2 and I have NEVER been happier in a car and NEVER had more fun driving a car as I do today. Best comfort, best acceleration, best automation. No more gas, no more oil changes...I can go on.
  • I have 2-years FREE charging (I hardly ever "THINK" about re-charging; certainly not more than filling up gas)
    My touchscreen is 100% voice-activated and works awesome: "Hey Google, turn the temperature to 74," Hey Google, play The Pretender by Jackson Browne."
    My insurance is barely over what I paid for a Hyundai Sonata (hybrid).
[/list][/list][/list]
harikaried
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by harikaried »

Is there any potential need for a third row? It is small in the Model Y, but the kids race to sit back there, and wife and other adults have been okay back there even for longer trips. It was particularly useful this weekend for us to have 3 adults and 2 kids and 5 sets of ski equipment and gear in the car.
Cruise
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by Cruise »

A question for those familiar withe the Tesla 3: will 2 standard size suitcases and 2 carryon rollaboards fit in the trunk and back seat?

Thanks.
hunoraut
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by hunoraut »

Kuota Rider wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:12 pm How has something so simple as an electric car become so politicized and two-sided? (like everything else nowadays I guess) Teach me...if you don't like the idea, don't drive one. I was in the mid-west recently and was actually ridiculed simply for the idea of driving an EV.
Cars are typically the 1st or 2nd most expensive thing people will ever buy. They attach high emotional value to them.

EVs are new and different. People are often averse to different things.

Even in the same class of vehicles, mustang people hate camaro people and dodge ram people hate toyota tacoma people and so on. Its often tribalistic.
bagle
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by bagle »

Cruise wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:04 am A question for those familiar withe the Tesla 3: will 2 standard size suitcases and 2 carryon rollaboards fit in the trunk and back seat?

Thanks.
Yes, though you may have to fold the driver´s-side back seat down to fit all four.
hunoraut
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by hunoraut »

Cruise wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:04 am A question for those familiar withe the Tesla 3: will 2 standard size suitcases and 2 carryon rollaboards fit in the trunk and back seat?

Thanks.
The trunk should eat 2x24-26” checked suitcases and 2x22” carryons.

Depend on the width and depth of the luggage, 1 might need to relocate to the rear seats. The issue is a horizontal bar that limits the height of the trunk.

The opening is clean and clear though.
Image
Valuethinker
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by Valuethinker »

Kuota Rider wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:12 pm

How has something so simple as an electric car become so politicized and two-sided? (like everything else nowadays I guess) Teach me...if you don't like the idea, don't drive one. I was in the mid-west recently and was actually ridiculed simply for the idea of driving an EV. Where I live, 30% of cars are EV''s. Agreed...they are not for everyone but please each to his own. I own a Polestar 2 and I have NEVER been happier in a car and NEVER had more fun driving a car as I do today. Best comfort, best acceleration, best automation. No more gas, no more oil changes...I can go on.
  • I have 2-years FREE charging (I hardly ever "THINK" about re-charging; certainly not more than filling up gas)
    My touchscreen is 100% voice-activated and works awesome: "Hey Google, turn the temperature to 74," Hey Google, play The Pretender by Jackson Browne."
    My insurance is barely over what I paid for a Hyundai Sonata (hybrid).
[/list][/list][/list]
EV ownership is (less of) an issue in other countries where sales are now reaching 25% of new car sales.* Geography (distances, population density, climate) of course play a role as well. I do remember when Hybrid-engined Cars attracted similar opprobrium (South Park episode, etc).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001f7y1 Dr Hannah Fry's "ditsy red-head" manner conceals a laser-sharp brain ("Professor Hannah Fry" in England is equivalent to an endowed Chair or Department Chairmanship) & a harrowing battle with cancer. Quite a lot about the history of the electric car. Perhaps it has been picked up by PBS or US cable?

https://hannahfry.co.uk/

* This is true of Germany and the UK, however may include PHEVs in that total. China also of course.
aquaman
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aquaman »

SchruteBucks wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First-time EV driver, long-time hybrid & conventional gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). While usually not a fan of prepaid anything, this is worth every upfront penny in my mind.
This has been discussed pretty extensively and the calculations aren't particularly straightforward.

For instance, when folks run the numbers on the amounts that they'd save by using electricity vs. gas, the savings figures are frequently incorrect. For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, things like solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other ways as well.

Then, there's the EV reliability concerns, which are separate from the overall expected reliability of the electric drivetrain: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... blem-areas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -poll-says
https://driving.ca/column/motor-mouth/m ... says-study

Further, people calculating the "savings" that they'd get with EV's tend to completely ignore depreciation. In reality, EV's tend to save a few hundred dollars a year, but that's without insurance and especially depreciation figures. Depreciation differences, however, can easily dwarf these savings. EV depreciation, in particular, has been very volatile and depends quite a bit on the price of gas, which has a very significant effect on the EV demand. Further, manufacturers seem to add lots of neat technology to EV's that is largely unrelated to the electric nature of the vehicles. On the front end, this seems to attract a substantial number of techy buyers interested in the latest technology, but the very nature of this technology tends to also mean that it's a lot less attractive down the road, as it's no longer the latest and greatest, and OTA updates can only do so much. Hence, this can result in higher depreciation rates.

There are also specific concerns with Tesla, as people are currently willing to pay a premium for it because of its superior charging network. This advantage is going to disappear, as Tesla is going to open up its network to other vehicles, which it has already done in other countries, plus a lot is being currently invested in the public charging network. Hence, there are Tesla specific depreciation concerns down the road.

I actually applaud Tesla for what it has done, and think that there's a lot to like about the EV technology in general, such as instant torque, simpler drivetrain and potential convenience of always leaving the house with a full "tank." These are all good reasons to buy an EV now. However, the question of whether on a net basis (after factoring in the cost of electricity vs. gas, depreciation, maintenance, repairs and insurance) you are actually going to save money is highly uncertain and depends on quite a few external variables.
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Thanks Aquaman. I dont even think Superman can find a similar gas model SUV in the mid 50’s, which has all of these cool features (like 0 to 60 in 3.5 Mississippi’s, dash cam + sentry cameras / alarms, performance features, mileage analytics, cool autopilot, remote climate features, light show :) etc. And it’s always being updated with more free features every month (never outdated when driving off lot). I charge at home (or for free when shopping) and take infrequent round trips outside of 150 miles so I should be ok, but if so, I can simply watch Netflix from the dash while waiting 15 minutes to “fill up.” I usually stop for that amount of time anyways when driving 4-5 hours at a time (between “fill ups”). And with autopilot, it’s an easy drive even when hands on wheel.

No oil, fluids, belts, and time with routine maintenance scheduling / visits. Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years. The average car now is close to $50k now, and this ain’t no average car. Maybe when this was priced at $70k your argument would hold. But times be a changing with the recent cuts. Worth every penny and then some IMO.
Last edited by SchruteBucks on Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:54 am, edited 9 times in total.
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smitcat
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:22 am
SchruteBucks wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First-time EV driver, long-time hybrid & conventional gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). While usually not a fan of prepaid anything, this is worth every upfront penny in my mind.
This has been discussed pretty extensively and the calculations aren't particularly straightforward.

For instance, when folks run the numbers on the amounts that they'd save by using electricity vs. gas, the savings figures are frequently incorrect. For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, things like solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other ways as well.

Then, there's the EV reliability concerns, which are separate from the overall expected reliability of the electric drivetrain: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... blem-areas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -poll-says
https://driving.ca/column/motor-mouth/m ... says-study

Further, people calculating the "savings" that they'd get with EV's tend to completely ignore depreciation. In reality, EV's tend to save a few hundred dollars a year, but that's without insurance and especially depreciation figures. Depreciation differences, however, can easily dwarf these savings. EV depreciation, in particular, has been very volatile and depends quite a bit on the price of gas, which has a very significant effect on the EV demand. Further, manufacturers seem to add lots of neat technology to EV's that is largely unrelated to the electric nature of the vehicles. On the front end, this seems to attract a substantial number of techy buyers interested in the latest technology, but the very nature of this technology tends to also mean that it's a lot less attractive down the road, as it's no longer the latest and greatest, and OTA updates can only do so much. Hence, this can result in higher depreciation rates.

There are also specific concerns with Tesla, as people are currently willing to pay a premium for it because of its superior charging network. This advantage is going to disappear, as Tesla is going to open up its network to other vehicles, which it has already done in other countries, plus a lot is being currently invested in the public charging network. Hence, there are Tesla specific depreciation concerns down the road.

I actually applaud Tesla for what it has done, and think that there's a lot to like about the EV technology in general, such as instant torque, simpler drivetrain and potential convenience of always leaving the house with a full "tank." These are all good reasons to buy an EV now. However, the question of whether on a net basis (after factoring in the cost of electricity vs. gas, depreciation, maintenance, repairs and insurance) you are actually going to save money is highly uncertain and depends on quite a few external variables.
For the most part this is what we have come up with ass well - too early to jump in this pond in our case.
sc9182
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by sc9182 »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:35 am
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:22 am
SchruteBucks wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First-time EV driver, long-time hybrid & conventional gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). While usually not a fan of prepaid anything, this is worth every upfront penny in my mind.
This has been discussed pretty extensively and the calculations aren't particularly straightforward.

For instance, when folks run the numbers on the amounts that they'd save by using electricity vs. gas, the savings figures are frequently incorrect. For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, things like solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other ways as well.

Then, there's the EV reliability concerns, which are separate from the overall expected reliability of the electric drivetrain: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... blem-areas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -poll-says
https://driving.ca/column/motor-mouth/m ... says-study

Further, people calculating the "savings" that they'd get with EV's tend to completely ignore depreciation. In reality, EV's tend to save a few hundred dollars a year, but that's without insurance and especially depreciation figures. Depreciation differences, however, can easily dwarf these savings. EV depreciation, in particular, has been very volatile and depends quite a bit on the price of gas, which has a very significant effect on the EV demand. Further, manufacturers seem to add lots of neat technology to EV's that is largely unrelated to the electric nature of the vehicles. On the front end, this seems to attract a substantial number of techy buyers interested in the latest technology, but the very nature of this technology tends to also mean that it's a lot less attractive down the road, as it's no longer the latest and greatest, and OTA updates can only do so much. Hence, this can result in higher depreciation rates.

There are also specific concerns with Tesla, as people are currently willing to pay a premium for it because of its superior charging network. This advantage is going to disappear, as Tesla is going to open up its network to other vehicles, which it has already done in other countries, plus a lot is being currently invested in the public charging network. Hence, there are Tesla specific depreciation concerns down the road.

I actually applaud Tesla for what it has done, and think that there's a lot to like about the EV technology in general, such as instant torque, simpler drivetrain and potential convenience of always leaving the house with a full "tank." These are all good reasons to buy an EV now. However, the question of whether on a net basis (after factoring in the cost of electricity vs. gas, depreciation, maintenance, repairs and insurance) you are actually going to save money is highly uncertain and depends on quite a few external variables.
Thanks Aquaman. I guess only Superman :) can find a similar gas model SUV in the mid 50’s, which has all of these cool features (like 0 to 60 in 3.5 Mississippi’s, dash cam + sentry cameras / alarms, performance features, mileage analytics, cool autopilot, remote climate features, light show :) etc. And it’s always being updated with more free features every month. No oil, fluids, routine maintenance scheduling / visits. Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years. The average car now is close to $50k now, and this ain’t no average car. Maybe when this was priced at $70k your argument would hold. But times be a changing with the recent cuts. Worth every penny and then some IMO.
Good points made - especially with recent price cuts and Tax-rebates., one can buy Model-3 for what - 37k’ish !? And there may be state level, Electric/Utility level rebates that may further reduce the “net price” of Model-3 to closer to $30k+ in some states/localities. iirc, Tesla also offers 4-50k full-warranty .. (please don’t equate non-transferable 10-100k phony powertrain warranty from worse resale value maker to this full-warranty)

Now - someone show-us/share with us BH - if you find “more car” for your “valued” money !?

Nope - EVs may not suit everyone. But - it’s starting to make a good sense, especially Tesla - great value-proposition for folks who can make use of EVs ..
smitcat
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

sc9182 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:51 am
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:35 am
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:22 am
SchruteBucks wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:27 am Took delivery of my MYP last night. By far the easiest transaction, and all indications are that it’s the best vehicle that I have ever owned :). First-time EV driver, long-time hybrid & conventional gas owner. I understand all sides of the argument to buy EV or not, and for me, EV is the only way to go from here. Yes, more expensive up front, but it’s like a prepaid maintenance & fuel plan as there is very little maintenance cost. The savings will be reaped later, if you are worried about that (and who isn’t on this site). While usually not a fan of prepaid anything, this is worth every upfront penny in my mind.
This has been discussed pretty extensively and the calculations aren't particularly straightforward.

For instance, when folks run the numbers on the amounts that they'd save by using electricity vs. gas, the savings figures are frequently incorrect. For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, things like solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other ways as well.

Then, there's the EV reliability concerns, which are separate from the overall expected reliability of the electric drivetrain: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... blem-areas
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -poll-says
https://driving.ca/column/motor-mouth/m ... says-study

Further, people calculating the "savings" that they'd get with EV's tend to completely ignore depreciation. In reality, EV's tend to save a few hundred dollars a year, but that's without insurance and especially depreciation figures. Depreciation differences, however, can easily dwarf these savings. EV depreciation, in particular, has been very volatile and depends quite a bit on the price of gas, which has a very significant effect on the EV demand. Further, manufacturers seem to add lots of neat technology to EV's that is largely unrelated to the electric nature of the vehicles. On the front end, this seems to attract a substantial number of techy buyers interested in the latest technology, but the very nature of this technology tends to also mean that it's a lot less attractive down the road, as it's no longer the latest and greatest, and OTA updates can only do so much. Hence, this can result in higher depreciation rates.

There are also specific concerns with Tesla, as people are currently willing to pay a premium for it because of its superior charging network. This advantage is going to disappear, as Tesla is going to open up its network to other vehicles, which it has already done in other countries, plus a lot is being currently invested in the public charging network. Hence, there are Tesla specific depreciation concerns down the road.

I actually applaud Tesla for what it has done, and think that there's a lot to like about the EV technology in general, such as instant torque, simpler drivetrain and potential convenience of always leaving the house with a full "tank." These are all good reasons to buy an EV now. However, the question of whether on a net basis (after factoring in the cost of electricity vs. gas, depreciation, maintenance, repairs and insurance) you are actually going to save money is highly uncertain and depends on quite a few external variables.
Thanks Aquaman. I guess only Superman :) can find a similar gas model SUV in the mid 50’s, which has all of these cool features (like 0 to 60 in 3.5 Mississippi’s, dash cam + sentry cameras / alarms, performance features, mileage analytics, cool autopilot, remote climate features, light show :) etc. And it’s always being updated with more free features every month. No oil, fluids, routine maintenance scheduling / visits. Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years. The average car now is close to $50k now, and this ain’t no average car. Maybe when this was priced at $70k your argument would hold. But times be a changing with the recent cuts. Worth every penny and then some IMO.
Good points made - especially with recent price cuts and Tax-rebates., one can buy Model-3 for what - 37k’ish !? And there may be state level, Electric/Utility level rebates that may further reduce the “net price” of Model-3 to closer to $30k+ in some states/localities. iirc, Tesla also offers 4-50k full-warranty .. (please don’t equate non-transferable 10-100k phony powertrain warranty from worse resale value maker to this full-warranty)

Now - someone show-us/share with us BH - if you find “more car” for your “valued” money !?

Nope - EVs may not suit everyone. But - it’s starting to make a good sense, especially Tesla - great value-proposition for folks who can make use of EVs ..
Which EV(s) do you own?
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Great points, sc9182! Forgot all about those local and federal tax breaks. And no more pesky weekly trips to gas station, and standing in the cold. My “tank” is filled every night. That’s certainly offsets any time needed at Supercharger over 10 years! Time is also money…
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harikaried
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by harikaried »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:35 amNo oil, fluids, routine maintenance scheduling / visits. Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year
You mentioned fluids, so are you including brake/transmission/differential fluids? Some dealerships have recommended major service levels replacing spark plugs and brake pads and anything else that doesn't pass inspection, and I would guess a good portion of dealership revenue is from ongoing service also resulting in profits for the automaker when they require official parts for worn down components of the many moving pieces related to internal combustion engines.
aquaman
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aquaman »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:35 am Thanks Aquaman. I guess only Superman :) can find a similar gas model SUV in the mid 50’s, which has all of these cool features (like 0 to 60 in 3.5 Mississippi’s, dash cam + sentry cameras / alarms, performance features, mileage analytics, cool autopilot, remote climate features, light show :) etc.
Right, and these are the exact features (other than acceleration, although acceleration is also what causes additional tire wear) that have very little to do with the electric drivetrain, which excite some buyers, but result in additional depreciation concerns, as this is the type of stuff that gets very quickly overshadowed by newer tech.
And it’s always being updated with more free features every month (never outdated when driving off lot).
Kind of. Your cell phone also gets regular updates, which help, but can still only do so much to let it keep up with newer offerings.
Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years.
You're actually making my points for me here. The $400/year savings in maintenance tend to be exaggerated and fail to take into account the differences in insurance and depreciation. As I mentioned above, the depreciation differences alone can very easily dwarf these savings.

Again, there's nothing wrong with EV's, and quite a bit to like about them, so I am in no way trying to debate their functional (as opposed to financial) merits. All that I am saying is that once you properly factor in all the ownership costs, including depreciation, on a net basis any expectations of financial savings become highly speculative and end up depending on lots of external variables.

In other words, if you otherwise like the vehicle, great, as there's definitely a lot to like about EV's. I just wouldn't get carried away with all these financial projections that fail to take into account some of the most important financial variables.
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Thanks Aquaman, I think we both agree. With the $400 a year savings on maintenance alone (again an independent study, not Tesla - and I’m sure you can run the numbers as well), and the federal tax credit (for those who qualify), and the local and state credits (in most areas), we are looking at maybe $15k (maybe more?) over 10 years. So on a cool sporty techie SUV, the net cost is $39k. The AVERAGE new car today goes for $48k. Didn't even speculate on any gas nor time savings nor entertainment savings (0-60 in 3.5 Mississippi’s is exhilarating!). Hopefully those on the fence for purely financial reasons can see what we are saying here
Last edited by SchruteBucks on Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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aquaman
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aquaman »

sc9182 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:51 am iirc, Tesla also offers 4-50k full-warranty .. (please don’t equate non-transferable 10-100k phony powertrain warranty from worse resale value maker to this full-warranty)
Tesla positions itself as a competitor in the upscale/luxury vehicle space. In this space, every single manufacturer automatically includes at least a 4 year/50K mile full exclusionary warranty. This is completely standard.

In the non-luxury space, 3 year/36K mile warranties are standard. In the luxury space, it is always at least 4 years/50K miles.
alfaspider
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by alfaspider »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:28 am
sc9182 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:51 am iirc, Tesla also offers 4-50k full-warranty .. (please don’t equate non-transferable 10-100k phony powertrain warranty from worse resale value maker to this full-warranty)
Tesla positions itself as a competitor in the upscale/luxury vehicle space. In this space, every single manufacturer automatically includes at least a 4 year/50K mile full exclusionary warranty. This is completely standard.

In the non-luxury space, 3 year/36K mile warranties are standard. In the luxury space, it is always at least 4 years/50K miles.
This is largely because leasing is a huge percentage of luxury make new vehicle sales. The business model is to offer cheap leases, then make another profit from selling the off-lease cars. Since leases are typically 3 years and luxury make cars can have expensive repairs, it greatly increases marketability if the warranty extends for some people past the lease expiration.
bwalling
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by bwalling »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:13 am
Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years.
You're actually making my points for me here. The $400/year savings in maintenance tend to be exaggerated and fail to take into account the differences in insurance and depreciation. As I mentioned above, the depreciation differences alone can very easily dwarf these savings.
Nearly every publication that quantifies these things says that Teslas depreciate less than other cars. Your prior post seems to indicate that you think depreciation is higher for them.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by sc9182 »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:28 am
sc9182 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:51 am iirc, Tesla also offers 4-50k full-warranty .. (please don’t equate non-transferable 10-100k phony powertrain warranty from worse resale value maker to this full-warranty)
Tesla positions itself as a competitor in the upscale/luxury vehicle space. In this space, every single manufacturer automatically includes at least a 4 year/50K mile full exclusionary warranty. This is completely standard.

In the non-luxury space, 3 year/36K mile warranties are standard. In the luxury space, it is always at least 4 years/50K miles.
Yup - that’s the point., one has to make “luxury” makers’ financials/Maint/repairs/resale-value/gas-savings etc when compared-to one Tesla vehicle.

Again - EV or Tesla may not be for every one in mass-market or frequent cross-country travel. With current price-cuts and Tax-rebates though - Tesla has been presenting value-proposition strictly better than lots of luxury makers..

Nope - i don’t need to drink Tesla cool-aid; just saying it’s “current” value proposition - especially to someone who may be on the fence .. not trying to convince “haters”
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aquaman »

bwalling wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:42 am
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:13 am
Assuming a $400 savings in maintenance each year (read that on an independent site, can’t remember where), and approximately $600 in gas savings (just lowballing for giggles), that’s a $10k savings over 10 years.
You're actually making my points for me here. The $400/year savings in maintenance tend to be exaggerated and fail to take into account the differences in insurance and depreciation. As I mentioned above, the depreciation differences alone can very easily dwarf these savings.
Nearly every publication that quantifies these things says that Teslas depreciate less than other cars. Your prior post seems to indicate that you think depreciation is higher for them.
As I explained above, the Tesla specific concern (in addition to all the other depreciation concerns that have to do with all EV's) is the fact that the premium that they command has a lot to do with their superior supercharger network. That advantage is going to disappear fairly soon, as Tesla will be opening up its supercharger network to other EV's, which is something that they've already done in other countries. Further, with the overall infrastructure investments now being made, the public charging network is going to get built out, which will also negate the current advantage of Tesla's proprietary supercharger network.

Speaking of the overall EV depreciation concerns, for a while Tesla's and other EV manufacturers' price increases, together with relatively high gas prices, kept EV depreciation in check. The WSJ has an article today that talks about current Tesla owners being in uproar, as Tesla's price cuts, while stimulating new vehicle sales, also suddenly caused their Teslas to experience substantial drops in values. Here's a quote from WSJ: "A decline in Tesla resale values also has rankled some owners. Through the first 17 days of January, the list price of model-year 2020 or newer used Teslas was down 25% from the June peak, about double the rate of the industrywide drop, according to data from research site Edmunds."
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by harikaried »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:07 amThrough the first 17 days of January, the list price of model-year 2020 or newer used Teslas was down 25% from the June peak, about double the rate of the industrywide drop, according to data from research site Edmunds."
Are you suggesting one should plan for additional "depreciation" as Tesla might drop prices by another 25% to meet some upcoming tax credit threshold?
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it. And a bonus (joke): if it depreciates quickly, your insurance goes down faster - again, a joke! Seriously, depreciation won’t be big enough to matter in 10 years (assuming you buy into a greater depreciation on older Tesla’s, which I do not :) If you sell a new car before 10 years, as a Bogglehead fan, you have no right buying new :) (I just made that up, but sounds like good advice)
Last edited by SchruteBucks on Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by alfaspider »

harikaried wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:58 pm
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:07 amThrough the first 17 days of January, the list price of model-year 2020 or newer used Teslas was down 25% from the June peak, about double the rate of the industrywide drop, according to data from research site Edmunds."
Are you suggesting one should plan for additional "depreciation" as Tesla might drop prices by another 25% to meet some upcoming tax credit threshold?
There's no coming tax credit threshold- the thresholds were written into law last year. It's possible that there will be additional price cuts in the future, but it won't be because of tax credits.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by aquaman »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc... By the way, depreciation matters at all times. Just because you don't recognize it until you sell or otherwise dispose of the vehicle does not mean that it is irrelevant, as that's one of the key metrics that you look at in deciding whether to sell and when to do so.

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:35 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc...

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
Of the last 3 ICE vehicles we sold 2 were sold for more than the purchase price and one was sold for just a tad under purchase price. Your point is significant and well explained.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by BrandonBogle »

Aquaman has brought up many good points to this thread and I concur that many was over comparing apples to oranges in #s, such as conveniently omitting taxes and such on electricity or delivery charges or onerous connection fees. I'm lucky I pay a flat $14 connection fee and low tax on electricity, but not everyone is as lucky.

I say this as I prepare to pick up my third Tesla in the family. I'm not opposed to other vehicles, but for what I want and like, Tesla still ended up the best choice for me.

I did want to add that while depreciation is important, it has never played a role in me deciding what car to buy, just when. I typically go 8 years before a replacement and my 2013 Model S is being swapped with a 2023 Model Y. However, depreciation still is important here. We decided to "hand me down" the 2013 to replace a 2009 Kia Rio beater. We can get $15k for it from Tesla (likely more elsewhere), but at that price, it is worth upgrading the beater car since it is on its last legs.

We suspect the Kia wouldn't pass the next inspection in April, so the timing works out as we would have to buy another car anyways. So replacing a Tesla with a new one makes sense for us since we would already being buying another car regardless. If it weren't for that, I would just keep the 2013 as it works great and has nothing wrong with it, as Aquaman describes about older ICEs above.
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:39 pm
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:35 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc...

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
Of the last 3 ICE vehicles we sold 2 were sold for more than the purchase price and one was sold for just a tad under purchase price. Your point is significant and well explained.
In other words, “let’s pull the plug on this” (before the moderator likely does), as this has likely run its course 🍻 good luck all
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:51 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:39 pm
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:35 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc...

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
Of the last 3 ICE vehicles we sold 2 were sold for more than the purchase price and one was sold for just a tad under purchase price. Your point is significant and well explained.
In other words, “let’s pull the plug on this” (before the moderator likely does), as this has likely run its course 🍻 good luck all
They were...
2019 car
2019 pickup
2020 car
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

:D Yes, selling used cars this decade is like selling stocks in late 90’s! But, that isn’t a fair point…
“The ratio of Stanley Nickels to Schrute Bucks is approximately equal to the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.” - The Office (2007, NBC)
smitcat
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:01 pm :D Yes, selling used cars this decade is like selling stocks in late 90’s! But, that isn’t a fair point…
Not sure what "a fair point" means - resale value is important no matter what item you purchase.
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:01 pm :D Yes, selling used cars this decade is like selling stocks in late 90’s! But, that isn’t a fair point…
Not sure what "a fair point" means - resale value is important no matter what item you purchase.
Yes, I agree - very important if you sell within 10 years (and less so for vehicles over 10 years). But, my point was you can’t base standard depreciation on your experience the last few years. I have an 12 year old Hybrid that is selling on the market for $10k…it was worth less than that 5 years ago :)
“The ratio of Stanley Nickels to Schrute Bucks is approximately equal to the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.” - The Office (2007, NBC)
smitcat
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:41 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:01 pm :D Yes, selling used cars this decade is like selling stocks in late 90’s! But, that isn’t a fair point…
Not sure what "a fair point" means - resale value is important no matter what item you purchase.
Yes, I agree - very important if you sell within 10 years (and less so for vehicles over 10 years). But, my point was you can’t base standard depreciation on your experience the last few years. I have an 12 year old Hybrid that is selling on the market for $10k…it was worth less than that 5 years ago :)
I agree you cannot base it on the last few years - the last few years was an example of many years past.
3-4 years back I had not been able to find an EV that I 'guessed'' would retain good resale value. Similar to any asset the depreciation is a consideration (one of many) and even today when we look at EV's it remains a consideration.
SchruteBucks
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by SchruteBucks »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:39 pm
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:35 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc...

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
Of the last 3 ICE vehicles we sold 2 were sold for more than the purchase price and one was sold for just a tad under purchase price. Your point is significant and well explained.
So we agree that this is a pointless stat based on the crazy used car market :)
“The ratio of Stanley Nickels to Schrute Bucks is approximately equal to the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.” - The Office (2007, NBC)
smitcat
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by smitcat »

SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:48 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:39 pm
aquaman wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:35 pm
SchruteBucks wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 pm Good point. And let’s not forget depreciation doesn’t matter (it’s not an investment) until you sell it.
Or until it gets totaled, etc...

When it comes to purely financial considerations (and I think that we all agree that there's far more to vehicle ownership than that, which is the reason that most of us don't just drive vehicles with the lowest expected TCO), vehicle depreciation is one of the most important, if not the most important variable. Depreciation is the reason that leasing brand new vehicles every 3 years or so is generally much more expensive than keeping the same vehicles long term. Depreciation is the reason that people are told that they'll save money by holding on to their fully depreciated and perfectly reliable but inefficient ICE vehicles, as opposed to selling them and buying brand new much more efficient models. Depreciation is the reason that the market for used vehicles even exists, and is the reason that lots of people avoid new vehicles and only buy used.

A financial discussion of vehicle ownership costs that omits depreciation is completely meaningless.
Of the last 3 ICE vehicles we sold 2 were sold for more than the purchase price and one was sold for just a tad under purchase price. Your point is significant and well explained.
So we agree that this is a pointless stat based on the crazy used car market :)
Well, I do not think so - it was based on specific vehicles which was a consideration at the time of purchase.
Depreciation matters and depreciation is not nearly equal on all vehicles within any time period.
cmr79
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by cmr79 »

Even if somebody knew whether current model EVs or ICE vehicles would depreciate more in general over the next few years, which I would argue none of us do, that knowledge wouldn't be relevant to OP's questions.

If one thinks they know whether the Tesla 3 vs Y would depreciate more, or whether Tesla vs other EV brands would depreciate more, that seems relevant to OP's situation. I have no clue.
sc9182
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Re: Dipping my toes in EV? Tesla 3/Y Questions!

Post by sc9182 »

Recent Pandemic resale vehicle (or new-car) pricing has been warped. (wasn’t below-zero Oil-price market, or 4x lumber markets, housing, or current egg-flation — also warped briefly!?)

Our friend sold their house for double their purchase price - who bought it in Mid-2020, sold it for 2x price mid-2022 (and there were multiple outbids). Now - if we anyone portrays this as long-term warped reality- can’t help but ! Same is the case with used-car (and new cars) prices/market during Pandemic.

Situation easing up a bit, of late though - as supply chain easing, competitive pricing starting to re-appear. Used-car/auction market has been dropping like a rock with monthly 3-4% price drops.

Yes, Tesla used-car market pricing taken a dip over the last month or so: “especially” after near 20% price-cut on new M3/MYs plus eligible 7500 rebate on top - on some new Tesla models. I personally say - that’s a good thing for many who may be on the fence on EV/Tesla market (though a bit disheartening for “some-most-recent” Tesla owners who paid pandemic prices, that too without tax-rebate!). Overall - more affordable EVs/Teslas a good thing for EV market. Now that Ford EV also cut its pricing .. thinking other EV makers will follow the suit - or could further fall behind in market share).

If someone on the fence for entering EV (or for that matter, some new car) market - this is a great time to make a purchase - more so, if one has/eligible-for additional local/state/utility rebates on top !!

** No, EVs may not necessarily good-choice for everyone ., especially if one can’t install charger, or can’t easily access charging-network .. or someone who frequently makes long-distance/cross-country trips on their “yet” to purchase vehicle.
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