How Do You Do Cars?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
stoptothink
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by stoptothink »

Jeep512 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:37 am
5) Trucks are very useful, but probably not very fuel efficient.
Unless you want to get in line for a Ford Maverick hybrid. We waited almost a year from order, but we're averaging a tad over 50mpg in mixed driving over the first ~4,500 miles. Just enough truck to throw all our bikes in the back, pick up our new clothes washer, and the occasional trip to Home Depot. We bought it primarily as a budget sedan replacement, but we're doing some "trucky" things with it.
BruDude
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by BruDude »

Watty wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:12 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:24 pm ..... To me, it isn't the price of the car, it's the difference between what I'm buying it for and what I'm able to sell it for when it's time to move on (which is pretty frequent as I get bored easily and always looking for the next best thing. Car people know what I'm talking about.) .....
It sounds like you know what you are doing and are good at it. :beer

For other people doing this though they need to be sure to take inflation into account especially since it has gotten higher.

I may be dating myself but I can remember the double digit inflation years of the late 1970s and early 1980s when you could buy pretty much any car and drive it for a few years then sell it for more than you had paid for it. If course when you sold it the dollars you got were worth less because of inflation.

There is also an opportunity cost you need to consider. If you buy a $100K car and then resell it for $100K(adjusted for inflation) a few years later then you broke even but you still lost the investment return that you could have had if you had invested that $100K instead. The enjoyment of the car might have been worth it to you but need to understand that tradeoff.
That assumes you're paying cash for the car though. I've never paid cash for an "expensive" car so the only opportunity cost is the monthly payments going into it. Last year I bought the Ferrari using a HELOC at 1.99% interest, paid about $180/month interest (no principal payments required, though I did make some), and sold the car for a $42k profit after driving it for a year. Obviously the Covid car market was an anomaly but I didn't fork out six figures for the car that could've been invested. With interest rates being so high now that becomes a more difficult proposition, so I won't be using the HELOC for purchases going forward until interest rates drop.
sherwink
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by sherwink »

I admit it, we're geezers. We don't drive much anymore. Groceries, gas that's pretty much it for us. Cars, well that equation is an open question. At some point soon We'll have to address that too. For us our message is--drive em to failure.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by JoeRetire »

MnD wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:55 am We spend money like drunken sailors overall, especially on experiences
Hmm. I think I know the kind of experiences purchased by drunken sailors...
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
mmcmonster
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by mmcmonster »

Most of my experience is "luxury" cars. 3 Lexus, 3 BMW, 2 Tesla so far. Currently have one of each.

I always buy cars. I don't want to worry about the number of miles and breaking a lease. Particularly because I hold the cars to 100k miles or more. Up until recently I would take a loan from the dealership and pay it back before it was due, because the rates were so good. The last couple cars I just bought with cash.

I sell my cars at ~100k miles, mostly because that's when the services start to get expensive. Generally sold back to the dealers. One through Tesla to one of the online auto sales websites.

Not sure if this helps anyone.
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broncocountry25
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by broncocountry25 »

BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:57 am
broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:53 pm In your opinion what is the best 911 right now to hold its value, I want to own one down the road so I have been paying more attention.

Wrong time for me right now 32 with $1.3 networth and focused more on building wealth then spending it.
991.1 GTS with a manual trans. Last of the naturally aspirated non-GT car engines in the most desirable trim. GT3s are great for value retention but the market is still way too hot, think it has more room to deflate.

You really have to do your research and drive the different generations to see for yourself what appeals to you. Would highly recommend going to the Porsche experience center in LA or Atlanta and doing at least one of the experiences.

I was 32 with a net worth nowhere near $1M when I bought my first 911. Zero regrets, sold for $18k profit too. Go for it, worst case scenario is you don’t love it and lose a few thousand bucks.
That is a pretty awesome first 911 story!

I don't think I can do it yet, I told myself I would hold off until $2 million before I buy something like the 911.
sp0704
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by sp0704 »

We have purchased with long-term loans (5 years) and once leased a Mercedes E Class for three years. We're late 30s/early 40s, so paying cash when low financing rates are available hasn't made sense to me when I'm focused on investing $$. Current vehicles are an '18 Odyssey and an '18 Maserati Quattroporte and the payments are a small amount of average monthly income. The Honda was bought new and the Maserati was bought in July 2021 as a CPO vehicle and the first time buying used. Despite public opinion, the Maserati has provided less headache so far than the Honda, which has had electrical gremlins and several recalls. It's also more fun to drive haha.

Like others, I've always wanted a Porsche 911, but with young kids, it may not be in the cards for practical purposes. It's hard to find sportier practical vehicles that will hold their value and I don't really want a third vehicle.
BruDude
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by BruDude »

broncocountry25 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:32 pm
BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:57 am
broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:53 pm In your opinion what is the best 911 right now to hold its value, I want to own one down the road so I have been paying more attention.

Wrong time for me right now 32 with $1.3 networth and focused more on building wealth then spending it.
991.1 GTS with a manual trans. Last of the naturally aspirated non-GT car engines in the most desirable trim. GT3s are great for value retention but the market is still way too hot, think it has more room to deflate.

You really have to do your research and drive the different generations to see for yourself what appeals to you. Would highly recommend going to the Porsche experience center in LA or Atlanta and doing at least one of the experiences.

I was 32 with a net worth nowhere near $1M when I bought my first 911. Zero regrets, sold for $18k profit too. Go for it, worst case scenario is you don’t love it and lose a few thousand bucks.
That is a pretty awesome first 911 story!

I don't think I can do it yet, I told myself I would hold off until $2 million before I buy something like the 911.
You certainly have more willpower than I do. It's a bit of a disease though, as you'll always be looking at it like "what if I just upgrade a little bit more..." and next thing you know you've spent twice as much as your first 911. I'm not married, don't have any kids, and make some decent money playing poker for fun in my spare time so there's more "fun money" to throw around.
sp0704 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:11 pm
Like others, I've always wanted a Porsche 911, but with young kids, it may not be in the cards for practical purposes. It's hard to find sportier practical vehicles that will hold their value and I don't really want a third vehicle.
Two words - 392 Wrangler. Easily one of my favorite cars I've ever owned and seriously might keep it forever as they'll never make another SUV with a big naturally aspirated V8 in it. Amazing sound, practical, comfortable, one touch roof, 4 wheel drive, can take it anywhere, only thing that sucks is the gas mileage (currently averaging 13mpg over 3k miles). Got mine for $14k off sticker on an order, paid right around $74.5k on an $89k sticker. I'd be surprised if they ever fall below $50-60k regardless of mileage. Wranglers in general hold their value incredibly well and the 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory.
60B4E24B
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by 60B4E24B »

I don’t, for a variety of reasons.

Instead, I choose to live in a place that allows us to exist largely car-free.
sp0704
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by sp0704 »

broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:53 pm Two words - 392 Wrangler. Easily one of my favorite cars I've ever owned and seriously might keep it forever as they'll never make another SUV with a big naturally aspirated V8 in it. Amazing sound, practical, comfortable, one touch roof, 4 wheel drive, can take it anywhere, only thing that sucks is the gas mileage (currently averaging 13mpg over 3k miles). Got mine for $14k off sticker on an order, paid right around $74.5k on an $89k sticker. I'd be surprised if they ever fall below $50-60k regardless of mileage. Wranglers in general hold their value incredibly well and the 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory.
Thanks for your input; I was unaware this existed. It's not exactly my cup of tea, but I do love the sound of a throaty V8. I prefer sedans and I'm thinking of a QP Trofeo to replace the current Maserati once they suffer more depreciation. Alternatively, a Panamera or Macan variant, or who knows. I've got plenty of time to think about the next vehicle though.
phxjcc
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by phxjcc »

I like to buy very expensive cars that have depreciated down into the mid-to-high $3X,000’s.

Lexus LX570, 7 years old, 50,000 miles, MSRP $97,000; paid $38,900.

MBZ AMG S65, 12 years old, 45,000 miles, MSRP $203,000; paid $32,500.

Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel truck, 9 years old, 120,000 miles, MSRP $39,000; paid $12,500.

Been looking for a fun convertible, but the current market is still overpriced.

But, If you have patience and don’t follow the lemmings over the cliff, there are still deals out there.

Look for Facebook/Craigslist ads in retirement areas/winter visitor areas.
The first two were from 2nd residences…

If you want a “transportation appliance” and are not a car guy then granny’s garage kept/dealer maintained early 2000’s qCadillac DTS with 20,000 miles for $9,000 is fine. Saw it on Facebook today.

If you, however, want a shiny new Bronco Raptor, AND must have it now….any dealer would be happy to take your order and charge you $25-45,000 ADM.
Maverick3320
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Maverick3320 »

As my/our net income has gone up, it seems like I've spend less and less (in inflation-adjusted absolute and relative terms) on autos.

Our family income is ~250k ish in a MCOL area. Combined, I think we paid about 55K for our two cars (purchased new). Wife paid cash up front, I took out a 0.9% four-year loan (paid off a few months back). I think eight years is a reasonable amount of time to keep. I'll probably wait until EV prices really hit the mass market and then switch over. A Tesla would be nice, but I really don't want to pay even 50k for a vehicle.

What really struck me was that the average price paid for a new car in the US was now like $48,000. I feel like I'm too young to be shocked by that number. Have car prices (and people's tastes) really risen that fast?
Maverick3320
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Maverick3320 »

BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:37 pm
Watty wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:12 am
BruDude wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:24 pm ..... To me, it isn't the price of the car, it's the difference between what I'm buying it for and what I'm able to sell it for when it's time to move on (which is pretty frequent as I get bored easily and always looking for the next best thing. Car people know what I'm talking about.) .....
It sounds like you know what you are doing and are good at it. :beer

For other people doing this though they need to be sure to take inflation into account especially since it has gotten higher.

I may be dating myself but I can remember the double digit inflation years of the late 1970s and early 1980s when you could buy pretty much any car and drive it for a few years then sell it for more than you had paid for it. If course when you sold it the dollars you got were worth less because of inflation.

There is also an opportunity cost you need to consider. If you buy a $100K car and then resell it for $100K(adjusted for inflation) a few years later then you broke even but you still lost the investment return that you could have had if you had invested that $100K instead. The enjoyment of the car might have been worth it to you but need to understand that tradeoff.
That assumes you're paying cash for the car though. I've never paid cash for an "expensive" car so the only opportunity cost is the monthly payments going into it. Last year I bought the Ferrari using a HELOC at 1.99% interest, paid about $180/month interest (no principal payments required, though I did make some), and sold the car for a $42k profit after driving it for a year. Obviously the Covid car market was an anomaly but I didn't fork out six figures for the car that could've been invested. With interest rates being so high now that becomes a more difficult proposition, so I won't be using the HELOC for purchases going forward until interest rates drop.
The principle still holds, though. The monthly Ferrari payments could have been invested during an extremely crazy bull run.
BruDude
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by BruDude »

Maverick3320 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:14 pm
The principle still holds, though. The monthly Ferrari payments could have been invested during an extremely crazy bull run.
Yes they could, but the stock market doesn’t have a screaming V12 and in the end I did significantly better on the car than the market would have done in the same time period. Results oriented yes, but you could say that about nearly anything you spend money on too. When I go to dinner I don’t think about whether a $50 steak could have been invested in some I-bonds.

I’m not saying a car is a great investment or a replacement for one, I’m simply saying that compared to the alternative of buying a cheaper car that heavily depreciates, if you’re willing to think outside the box and do some solid research, there may be better options out there.
Cruise
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Cruise »

We keep our cars 12-14 years. Currently driving 2010 Infiniti and 2014 BMW.
Ron Ronnerson
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

We’re in our late-40s and have one kid, age 8. Our household income is about $130k, net worth is $1.6m, and retirement expenses should be fully covered by a $100k/year pension around age 60.

We own two Toyota Corollas which were purchased new with cash. The cars are 8 and 9 years old and are getting close to reaching 100k miles on each of them. We’ll likely keep them another 5-10 years.

I think about the features I have in my Corollla that weren’t around (or at least not common) until fairly recently and it makes me appreciate what I have. I feel so fancy using a rearview camera to back out of a parking space while Apple CarPlay rocks my favorite tunes. If I’m unlucky enough to get into an accident, there are air bags galore to lower the probability of my demise. There was a time when not only were these dazzling features not around, but they didn’t even have seatbelts - so a person risked flying out of their windshield on any given day. I don’t want to belabor the point but I still remember manually rolling up the windows in my first car on hot summer days, exerting myself as beads of perspiration manifested upon my brow. And if we go back a little further, people actually used animals to get around. My Corolla is not just some chariot - it is way better. If you need me, I’ll be sitting in my car, basking in its 21st-century glory.
Wash.Invest
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Wash.Invest »

I live in mtns, daily drive switchbacks and canyons, so I like a fun car (tho usually am riding one of many vintage racing motorcycles)

Car... Is 44 yrs old, gets 50 mpg on free home brew fuel. <$0.04/ mile cost (including the cost of vehicle)

Sunday / spare car is a roomy Passat wagon that can go 1200+ miles between fills (burns free fuel too)

Daily hard working ranch trucks will run to 1m + miles, and I have 3 spares, so will never need another. (1st Gen Dodge Cummins 4x4 dually flatbed w/ dump beds)

Favorite is 71 year old GMC pickup. Very dependable, great in snow, very fun to drive.

We fly-drive ~ 30x / yr, so get to rent a lot of various cars, but I prefer my own. Had great (cheap) rental cars in Europe last few months. All were manual transmission and diesel. ++

EV will not suffice living in the boonies and steep climb coming home.

Income ? None (very little) in last 18 yrs of early retirement. SS finally coming at last. (Healthcare too!)

NW... Adequate to support another 30+ yrs of retirement @ 2x my highest ever salary.

Cars are fun
Son has 1966 911 it's fun too. But I will stick with a Motorcycle for much faster trips to town.
blackbird
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by blackbird »

I haven't read all the responses so far, just sharing my personal experience. I've been all over the board on cars in my life. I drove older cars for a while (Toyotas and such) and then, after doing well for myself, I got bit by the Mercedes bug and drove several on lease for a number of years including an AMG model and S-class. They were nice but I got tired of them relatively quickly. In more recent years, I was afforded the opportunity of a company vehicle and drove pick ups. I had an F-150 Lariat for a while, an F-250 Platinum, a Raptor (pretty cool), and ultimately a 2020 RAM 1500 Laramie Longhorn.

Of all the vehicles, the RAM 1500 is the smoothest and most comfortable I've ever driven hands down and that's really saying something. The seating position, exterior, interior, noise level, suspension, utility, etc. - the best. I left the company and bought it at market value for cash. I'll drive this one for a while and then I expect I'll get another one once an updated model comes out. I no longer finance purchases.

Blackbird
CharlesDickens
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by CharlesDickens »

I am kind of a bipolar car guy, who does not drive that much because I mostly commute by train. I have a 1.8 liter 2009 Pontiac Vibe with 89k miles, which I bought new for $15k. I think that I get around 28 mpg. It is my grocery getter, and when it comes to grocery getters, cheap is good, and I don't much care how it looks. I still park in remote spaces but I don't get upset when it gets a scratch or 2.

However, I really like sports cars. It is one of only 2 or 3 vices, and I keep it under control by holding onto my cars. I have a 2006 Corvette (6 speed manual) which I bought new in 2005, and I love it. I replaced the radio (myself) with a top of the line Kenwood and so it has all the features I want or need, which put off the desire for a car upgrade. Sure the C7 and C8 are faster, but my 2006 still looks really good, still is quite fast, actually has a generous hatch/trunk, and there aren't too many 17 year old cars that routinely get compliments from strangers. Nevertheless, I've got the bug to get a new one just because. I have deposits down on a couple of Corvette variants (including a ZR1), either of which would be massively expensive, but I can afford it and I keep my cars a long time. In addition, although Corvette values are dropping, the new C8s still are holding their values pretty well. C8 Corvette performance is getting pretty close to that of the mega bucks German and Italian sports cars for much less :moneybag .

Based on other threads, it looks to me like spending a lot on cars is frowned upon on this forum, and I get that, but an occasional within-budget splurge is ok for me.
ncbill
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by ncbill »

I used to say I'd keep 'em until something like an engine or transmission needed replacement but with the COVID craziness in the new & used market I'm taking one to the transmission shop next week...will pay for a rebuild or used transmission if needed.
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Watty
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Watty »

Maverick3320 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:11 pm What really struck me was that the average price paid for a new car in the US was now like $48,000. I feel like I'm too young to be shocked by that number. Have car prices (and people's tastes) really risen that fast?
Averages are misleading since if one person buys a $100K car and four people buy $25K Corollas then the average price is $40K. If someone touts that the average price is $48K then that could be in part marketing to make it seem like paying that much is normal. The median new car price would be a lot better figure to use but in a quick look I was not able to find that.

Compared to the past that is even that not as bad as it sounds because a lot of the price increase is due to inflation and vehicles getting a lot larger, especially pickups and SUVs.

Adjusting for inflation $48K now is about the same as $28K in 2000.

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl ... ar2=200010

Cars have also been upsized a LOT, I had a 2018 Corolla that was almost the same size as an early 2000s Camry that I had.

If you can find one in the current market you can still buy a basic Corolla for around $23K at MSRP. I looked it up and in 2000 a Corolla started at about $13K MSRP which is about $23,000 in 2022 dollars. In 2000 a new Camry, which might be more comparable, started at about $18K which is about $32K in 2022 dollars.

Car quality has also improved a LOT. 30 or 40 years ago it was a bit of an accomplishment to have your car last until it hit 100k miles and odometers did not even have a sixth digit so when you hit 100k miles it rolled over and back to 0 miles.

Mercedes was the first company to sell a car with a six digit odometer in the 1970s and it was at least in part a marketing strategy since they would feature that in their advertisements. Some GM cars did not get a 6 digit odometer until the 1990s!

There were of course exceptions but for the most part cars back then were basically not designed to last more than 100k miles since even if they did not break down they would often rust out. This is not as bad as it sounds though since people drove fewer miles back then and it might take most people more than ten years to hit 100k miles.

My parents were pretty middle class and in the 1960s and 1970s and they tended to replace cars when after they had 50k to 70k miles and that was not uncommon. This was not because they were trying be stylish and get the latest model, it was because at that mileage the car was not super dependable and often had significant rust problems.

Now I would be disappointed if I bought a new car and it needed any significant repair before 100k miles.

On an "apples to apples" basis a reasonable case could be made that adjusted for inflation cars are less expensive now when you look at the cost per year because they last a lot longer.
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dogagility
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by dogagility »

broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:04 pm My question --> how do you handle cars in your household? How often to replace/how many do you have? How has your car ownership changed over the years?
When I was younger with less disposable cash, I bought the cheapest used car that 1) didn't have see-through floorboards and 2) didn't billow blue smoke out of the tailpipe. I would run these until major repairs were needed or the engine fell to ground (happened once while going over railroad tracks).

Now, we buy new cars (typically asian manufacturers) but select the base models with few options. We regularly maintain these cars and keep these for many years. (e.g. our 2011 Camry has 201,000 miles on it)
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zie
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by zie »

burritoLover wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:08 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:38 pm The results are more likely to be the difference between scratches and injury, or between serious injury and death, but extremely seldom will it be a difference between mere scratches and death.
Hardly. There are some difference between the core structure of the car failing vs remaining wholly intact after the safety improvements over 15-20 years. That is the difference between needing the jaws of life to get to you vs you opening the door and walking away.
I'm pretty ignorant, but these two comments made me curious enough to go have a look.

The NHTSA has a "New Car Program" and their standards are available along with dates. Overall it looks like generally they update their testing standards every few years, so we are probably due for another change soon.

If you follow the links, and look at the actual documents, they include a revision/changelog page. I've only checked a few so far, but they look like from initial release they generally only get minor changes. The "FULL FRONTAL RIGID BARRIER IMPACT TESTING" document was created in 2010, and only received minor changes until 2018, where they finally use the wording: "Major reformatting along with updates to load cell barrier, ATD instrumentation, high speed camera layout, photo, tow system, and reporting requirements." Even in this change, it doesn't seem to be a major change in the test itself, but a major change in how they formatted the document(s). Now I'm still pretty ignorant of crash testing, but it seems to me, it's not looking like anything major is changing very often.

So far it seems like they don't change their testing practices very often, so even a safety conscious person doesn't need to change their vehicle every 4-5 years just for safety reasons. Every decade or so? I'd buy that.

I have zero domain expertise, and my knowledge basically comes from the little bit of time I just described above, so perhaps there is a lot of unknown unknowns that I'm unaware of. I welcome domain experience teaching me the error of my ways.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
Carguy85
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Carguy85 »

BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:25 pm
Two words - 392 Wrangler. Easily one of my favorite cars I've ever owned and seriously might keep it forever as they'll never make another SUV with a big naturally aspirated V8 in it. Amazing sound, practical, comfortable, one touch roof, 4 wheel drive, can take it anywhere, only thing that sucks is the gas mileage (currently averaging 13mpg over 3k miles). Got mine for $14k off sticker on an order, paid right around $74.5k on an $89k sticker. I'd be surprised if they ever fall below $50-60k regardless of mileage. Wranglers in general hold their value incredibly well and the 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory.
Dude, you got me thinking. Initially I woulda said whoever buys an $80k Wrangler is nuts! I paid $30k new for my base unlimited with hardtop in 2017. However, currently building a 50 year old Land Cruiser restomod (with an LS3) has put things in perspective…very very expensive. With the 392 running gear/offerings/warranty, the price really isn’t out of line. I couldn’t build something like that for any less. Definitely a very unique driving experience no doubt. My only knock on wranglers was the usual anemic engines. Any kind of a lift and the V6 is hating life. I’ve been watching some videos of them…very cool.
Last edited by Carguy85 on Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

When I returned from WWII I saw a beautiful lady in Miami driving a light blue convertible Buck with the top down and with a fawn colored Great Dane sitting in the seat beside her. I learned she was the 1949 Orange Bowl "Spirit of Youth." I arranged to meet her at a New Year's Eve party and we eventually married.

I was told her Buick was the first car with electric windows (which seldom worked). We had the cash and I convinced her she should pay off her high-interest automobile loan and get a more practical car. We went to the lender's office and they told us we could not pay-off the loan (which may have been a lie).

Despite setbacks like this, our marriage lasted 62 years (Pat died in 2013). Our three children have been a blessing.

Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of WIsdom: "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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AllMostThere
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by AllMostThere »

BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:25 pm ...... 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory ......
During development Chrylser actually called that engine the 6.4L BGE (Big Gas Engine). Like you, I prefer 392! :twisted:
It is not about how much you make; it is about how much you keep and how well you invest it. - Author Unknown | Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today. - Author James Dean
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AllMostThere
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by AllMostThere »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:06 pm Bogleheads:

When I returned from WWII I saw a beautiful lady in Miami driving a light blue convertible Buck with the top down and with a fawn colored Great Dane sitting in the seat beside her. I learned she was the 1949 Orange Bowl "Spirit of Youth." I arranged to meet her at a New Year's Eve party and we eventually married.

I was told her Buick was the first car with electric windows (which seldom worked). We had the cash and I convinced her she should pay off her high-interest automobile loan and get a more practical car. We went to the lender's office and they told us we could not pay-off the loan (which may have been a lie).

Despite setbacks like this, our marriage lasted 62 years (Pat died in 2013). Our three children have been a blessing.

Taylor
Taylor, you never cease to amaze us all. WWII Vet, Author, Financial Guru, and now storyteller about the love of your life! If Pat was anything like you, I'm sure she was an amazing woman. 62 years of loving matrimony proves your ability to grasp the Brass Ring and is an inspiration to all. Keep'em coming. :beer
God Bless and Merry Christmas.
It is not about how much you make; it is about how much you keep and how well you invest it. - Author Unknown | Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today. - Author James Dean
bikeeagle1
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by bikeeagle1 »

I follow my father-in-laws rules:

1. Always pay cash.
2. Realize before you buy it that it is a piece of junk the minute you drive it off the lot.

In other words, never borrow money to purchase a depreciating asset, and don't see it as anything more than what it is - something to get from from A to B. It doesn't make you cool or impressive. Someday it will end up in a crusher in a junk yard.
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canadianbacon
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by canadianbacon »

I bought my first car new and financed it. I did haggle some good discounts at least. Every other car has been purchased in cash at the three year old mark. Current vehicle is a low mileage 2015 that I'd like to keep for as long as makes sense; next vehicle would ideally be EV or some equivalent greener technology.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
BruDude
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by BruDude »

Carguy85 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:37 am
BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:25 pm
Two words - 392 Wrangler. Easily one of my favorite cars I've ever owned and seriously might keep it forever as they'll never make another SUV with a big naturally aspirated V8 in it. Amazing sound, practical, comfortable, one touch roof, 4 wheel drive, can take it anywhere, only thing that sucks is the gas mileage (currently averaging 13mpg over 3k miles). Got mine for $14k off sticker on an order, paid right around $74.5k on an $89k sticker. I'd be surprised if they ever fall below $50-60k regardless of mileage. Wranglers in general hold their value incredibly well and the 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory.
Dude, you got me thinking. Initially I woulda said whoever buys an $80k Wrangler is nuts! I paid $30k new for my base unlimited with hardtop in 2017. However, currently building a 50 year old Land Cruiser restomod (with an LS3) has put things in perspective…very very expensive. With the 392 running gear/offerings/warranty, the price really isn’t out of line. I couldn’t build something like that for any less. Definitely a very unique driving experience no doubt. My only knock on wranglers was the usual anemic engines. Any kind of a lift and the V6 is hating life. I’ve been watching some videos of them…very cool.
I had a 2018 Wrangler with the V6 engine and loved the car as a daily, but my only real complaint was the anemic engine. I still can't believe Jeep actually made the 392, it's such an absurd concept to strap a hemi engine into a 5000 pound brick on wheels, but so awesome in practice. People are clamoring for a hellcat version but I think people driving that would just wind up killing themselves, the hemi has all of the power you'd ever need.

A loaded Rubicon V6 is around $65-70k now, so $85-90k for a hemi engine, 2" factory lift, upgraded gears, 35" wheels and tires all with a factory warranty is pretty good value, especially when you look at what else is out there in a similar price range. A Bronco Raptor is currently selling for like $40-50k over MSRP which is insane when you can get a 392 at a discount. I paid about the same price for my new 392 as I would've had to pay for a used 5 year old Range Rover SVR with a bunch of miles and no warranty. I was able to get a Mopar factory extended warranty bumper to bumper 8 years 85k miles for $1200, which also seems like a steal.
AllMostThere wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:11 pm
BruDude wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:25 pm ...... 392 is by far the best version ever built by the factory ......
During development Chrylser actually called that engine the 6.4L BGE (Big Gas Engine). Like you, I prefer 392! :twisted:
It''s such an awesome engine and it fits the Wrangler perfectly. Easily one of the best sounding cars in stock form I have ever heard, scares the crap out of people when I use the remote start. I've been debating on buying the Borla Atak exhaust, but it sounds so good stock that it doesn't "need" it. A few of my friends have driven it and they could not believe how fast it is for a Wrangler. Instant power at any speed in any gear.
ZWorkLess
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by ZWorkLess »

We buy new cars when one we have can't be fixed for less than the value of it OR when we hand it down to one of our kids. Then we buy the new car we want. We have always bought new, but we were generally quite modest with our choices for a loooong time, at first bc we were young and broke and then bc we knew we had 3 kids who were each going to need cars in a 5 year window as they got licenses (we live in a rural area where you truly must have a vehicle to get anywhere, work, shop, etc.), so we wanted to buy cars that we'd feel reasonable about handing down.

(For this same reason, we feel a need to ensure our kids have "wheels" until they are fully launched. Bc unless we want them just living in the basement and never leaving our house, they have to have wheels here! And we don't want them living back in our house!!! (Except for CollegeGirl on school breaks, lol, that we want!!)

So, in your shoes, I'd hand off the 2011 Odyssey to the kid. Minivan is the perfect teen car. Keeps them humble and slow. BTDT. Who's gonna feel like a hot shot peeling out of the intersection in the mom-mobile where their cheerios are probably still embedded between seat cushions?

For us, Kid#1 got the 12 year old base model 120k+ small Volvo that Spouse drove the first 12 years (Spouse got a bit bigger/newer/nicer just inherited Volvo), then when that car died, she got a my heavily used minivan 130k+ (I got a new, modest Subaru -- FamilySube#1). When the minivan died, she bought her very own car new (another modest Subaru, FamilySube#2) and paid for it herself via coop earnings while in college. She's still driving that as while she's saving 50% of her income. (Good girl!!).

Kid#2 got the then-10 year old nicer Volvo that Spouse had been driving (the inherited one) and Spouse got a new (modest) Subaru (FamilySube#3). Kid2 is still driving it, but it's just hanging in there with frequent repairs, and he's not fully launched yet, so we may end up handing down one more vehicle to him at some point, which would likely be my FamilySube#1 that Spouse is now driving.

Kid#3 got Dad's FamilySube#2 with about 80k and 5 years on it. By far, she got the nicest vehicle of the kids, even though it was a total base model (for real, stick shift, lol, bc we were buying cars like they were candy bars at that stage), but it should last her through college and into grad school. She lucked out as the youngest, so we felt more free that we weren't setting a precedent we couldn't maintain, but also because she's in college on the opposite coast, so reliability is more critical for her car. When Spouse gave her that car, he took my FamilySube#1 which he is still driving, and I got a brand spanking new fancy car -- quite a splurge for us. (We're still talking 53k Toyota, not a luxury car.)

Now we've got one more modest car, the FamilySube#1 above and my nicer, newer vehicle. Kid1 is fully launched, but Kid2 and Kid3 are still somewhat dependent on us financially, so we are essentially reserving FamilySube#1 for those kids in case one of their cars hits the shitter before they're really ready to handle paying for a new car. If one of them needs a car in the next few years, we'll hand off that Subaru and get another new, nicer vehicle for Dad.
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Metsfan91
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Metsfan91 »

broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:04 pm
My question --> how do you handle cars in your household? How often to replace/how many do you have? How has your car ownership changed over the years?
I buy new and keep for long time. I replace when absolutely necessary. My current vehicle is a chevy which I have owned for over 8 years. It is in great condition. I hope to drive it for many more years...I have owned GM vehicles only.
"Know what you own, and know why you own it." — Peter Lynch
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burritoLover
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by burritoLover »

zie wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:08 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:38 pm The results are more likely to be the difference between scratches and injury, or between serious injury and death, but extremely seldom will it be a difference between mere scratches and death.
Hardly. There are some difference between the core structure of the car failing vs remaining wholly intact after the safety improvements over 15-20 years. That is the difference between needing the jaws of life to get to you vs you opening the door and walking away.
I'm pretty ignorant, but these two comments made me curious enough to go have a look.

The NHTSA has a "New Car Program" and their standards are available along with dates. Overall it looks like generally they update their testing standards every few years, so we are probably due for another change soon.

If you follow the links, and look at the actual documents, they include a revision/changelog page. I've only checked a few so far, but they look like from initial release they generally only get minor changes. The "FULL FRONTAL RIGID BARRIER IMPACT TESTING" document was created in 2010, and only received minor changes until 2018, where they finally use the wording: "Major reformatting along with updates to load cell barrier, ATD instrumentation, high speed camera layout, photo, tow system, and reporting requirements." Even in this change, it doesn't seem to be a major change in the test itself, but a major change in how they formatted the document(s). Now I'm still pretty ignorant of crash testing, but it seems to me, it's not looking like anything major is changing very often.

So far it seems like they don't change their testing practices very often, so even a safety conscious person doesn't need to change their vehicle every 4-5 years just for safety reasons. Every decade or so? I'd buy that.

I have zero domain expertise, and my knowledge basically comes from the little bit of time I just described above, so perhaps there is a lot of unknown unknowns that I'm unaware of. I welcome domain experience teaching me the error of my ways.
You need to look at IIHS - they have often upgraded their tests over the years (i.e. made them more consistent with actual crashes) and when they do, there's often a collection of new vehicles that get a poor rating. Manufacturers respond to this with new designs, making the cars safer.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/small- ... -side-test
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Darth Xanadu
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Darth Xanadu »

We've taken different approaches over the years. Current vehicles are:

2015 Kia Optima: leased new for 2 years then bought out the lease. Just went over 70k miles (hit 60k miles in July 2019, we don't drive it much). With 2 little kids, we may replace this with a new, larger vehicle in a few years, or we may just hang onto it, since our other vehicle is...

2019 Honda Odyssey: purchased new in October 2019. Will drive this for hopefully many more years to come.

Once my kids' daycare expenses go away, I may consider a "sinking car fund" for new vehicle purchases.
zie
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by zie »

burritoLover wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:02 am
zie wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:08 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:38 pm The results are more likely to be the difference between scratches and injury, or between serious injury and death, but extremely seldom will it be a difference between mere scratches and death.
Hardly. There are some difference between the core structure of the car failing vs remaining wholly intact after the safety improvements over 15-20 years. That is the difference between needing the jaws of life to get to you vs you opening the door and walking away.
I'm pretty ignorant, but these two comments made me curious enough to go have a look.

The NHTSA has a "New Car Program" and their standards are available along with dates. Overall it looks like generally they update their testing standards every few years, so we are probably due for another change soon.

If you follow the links, and look at the actual documents, they include a revision/changelog page. I've only checked a few so far, but they look like from initial release they generally only get minor changes. The "FULL FRONTAL RIGID BARRIER IMPACT TESTING" document was created in 2010, and only received minor changes until 2018, where they finally use the wording: "Major reformatting along with updates to load cell barrier, ATD instrumentation, high speed camera layout, photo, tow system, and reporting requirements." Even in this change, it doesn't seem to be a major change in the test itself, but a major change in how they formatted the document(s). Now I'm still pretty ignorant of crash testing, but it seems to me, it's not looking like anything major is changing very often.

So far it seems like they don't change their testing practices very often, so even a safety conscious person doesn't need to change their vehicle every 4-5 years just for safety reasons. Every decade or so? I'd buy that.

I have zero domain expertise, and my knowledge basically comes from the little bit of time I just described above, so perhaps there is a lot of unknown unknowns that I'm unaware of. I welcome domain experience teaching me the error of my ways.
You need to look at IIHS - they have often upgraded their tests over the years (i.e. made them more consistent with actual crashes) and when they do, there's often a collection of new vehicles that get a poor rating. Manufacturers respond to this with new designs, making the cars safer.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/small- ... -side-test

Hey thanks for the IIHS reference, I was unaware of them. They have an article here that pretty much agrees with what you are saying. They include a graph at the bottom of the article that shows "Predicted registered vehicles equipped with advanced safety features by calendar years 2018 and 2023" and there is a noticeable difference between 2018 and 2023 model years, pretty much confirming what you are saying, that 4-5 years for safety changes is a totally reasonable timeline.

For those following along, they have another article that might prove interesting: "Crash rates for drivers in their 70s drop below those of middle-aged drivers"

I'm totally in agreement with your perspective now, where I wasn't before.
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by jebmke »

The second piece is interesting. Seems like a market jump from the 70s to 80+ although with a trend toward convergence.

In the back of my mind, I've always assumed that 80 may well be a time to stop driving assuming nothing triggers it before.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Lanzz
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Lanzz »

Cars are my one bad habit... I like to trade one of our cars every year for a certified pre owned car that is a year or two newer. We have two Mercedes E class, so we basically have two cars that are between 1 and 3 years old at all times. This keeps them under warranty and also means we have the latest safety and comfort features. If I was going to keep a car for longer, it would be a Toyota or Lexus, because all of the premium German brands become money pits somewhere between year 4 and year 6. What I do makes no financial sense, but I love the thrill of the hunt and the variety of new colors and new features.
chassis
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by chassis »

jebmke wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:37 am The second piece is interesting. Seems like a market jump from the 70s to 80+ although with a trend toward convergence.

In the back of my mind, I've always assumed that 80 may well be a time to stop driving assuming nothing triggers it before.
It's interesting. My dad is 83 and my brother and I don't feel good about his driving abilities. My dad tells stories of when he took his dad's keys away (my grandfather's keys), because my 80+ year old grandfather was driving on the wrong side of the road. Do I suggest that my dad stop driving, or do I wait until he has a disastrous mishap?
Tellurius
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Tellurius »

I don’t have a car now
But I’d like to buy a nice classic car, one that is driveable in this day and age (an Alfa Romeo, a Lancia, a Triumph, an old Merc or BMW) and take it as far as it can go.

With no electric windows, power steering, heaps of sensors etc, it can just go and go and go without the same amount of maintenance.

The hydraulic cylinders on the electric roof broke on a 2000s CLK and they quoted 4.000€ for us to fix it. Same amount as the value of the car. None of that please
“And how shall I think of you?' He considered a moment and then laughed. 'Think of me with my nose in a book!” | ― Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell
scguy613
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by scguy613 »

I bought a 2004Acura MDX SUV with 80000 miles on it and sold it at 374,000 miles. He’s still driving it. I bought a second one with 45000 miles and sold it at 22000 miles and bought a third one new. This one should last me ten years or more.
Parkinglotracer
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Parkinglotracer »

WestCoastPhan wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:22 am I buy cars and keep them until my kids crash them. :annoyed
Some truth there !
goldendad
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by goldendad »

Currently own a 2004 Toyota Highlander (225k miles) and 2013 Honda CR-V (110k miles). Minimum problems with both of them. Will keep driving them until they become unreliable. Paid cash new for both.
jebmke
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by jebmke »

chassis wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:59 pm
jebmke wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:37 am The second piece is interesting. Seems like a market jump from the 70s to 80+ although with a trend toward convergence.

In the back of my mind, I've always assumed that 80 may well be a time to stop driving assuming nothing triggers it before.
It's interesting. My dad is 83 and my brother and I don't feel good about his driving abilities. My dad tells stories of when he took his dad's keys away (my grandfather's keys), because my 80+ year old grandfather was driving on the wrong side of the road. Do I suggest that my dad stop driving, or do I wait until he has a disastrous mishap?
if you have concerns about his driving, I would not put off dealing with it. The mishap could impact him and/or someone else - neither of which is an acceptable outcome.

I periodically remind my wife that I am counting on her to intervene if she ever believes that I should no longer be driving.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
JackoC
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by JackoC »

broncocountry25 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:04 pm What is your plan for owning/leasing cars?

My question --> how do you handle cars in your household? How often to replace/how many do you have? How has your car ownership changed over the years?

Our income and networth are much higher now then in our 20's and I think it would be ok to upgrade the car a bit. We are in the young kids stage as well so we aren't travelling and going out as much as we once did.
We get whatever cars we feel like getting and replace them whenever we feel like it. That's why we saved. We're 60's though so might shed limited light on a situation past, but closer to, 20s. Maybe we should have spent more on cars sooner, but no reason to skimp on them now.

Earlier this year replaced 2018 BMW M2 (I actually sold into the surge in price for the model in 2021) with 2022 Porsche Macan S. We could keep the Macan for many years, or maybe replace it with a 'real' Porsche sooner. I really like the 'Porsche DNA' of the car so far. Macan is good on room and comfort for very long trips yet still fun on remote curvy roads all over the country. If we get bored with those trips then maybe a 718 or 911 for more fun at medium distance might be better? But those wouldn't be really suitable for our very long trips and there are few fun roads actually nearby, right next to Manhattan. I've never found it worth the bother to do other than pay cash for a car.

I will soon replace our 2005 Lexus GX, which we bought new, probably with a 2019 Acura MDX, the second car gets parked on the street (the more expensive one has a rented indoor space). The Lexus was very reliable per reputation for years but not as much lately. There's been fixable pretty expensive stuff but actually more insidiously, difficult to diagnose minor stuff (eg. idle speed wobbles when car is cold, no need for suggestions I've tried troubleshooting myself then paid a pro $100's who claimed to have fixed it, nope, I give up; now left turn signal gives the rapid clicking like when a bulb is burned out, but only sometimes and bulbs are fine, life's too short and money not tight enough for us to put up with stuff like that). I've figured safety is still OK in the Lexus because of its size (IIHS driver death rate data, as opposed to crash tests which simulate collision of similar size vehicles, make clear this is a big factor, though some people who want to save money/energy with small cars don't want to accept it) and relatively robust safety kit for a 2005 but would also prefer the latest generation safety gadgets. 2019 MDX has those, which I've appreciated on the Macan.
stoaX
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by stoaX »

My model is to buy new and keep it for about 15 years. Currently I have a 2010 Ford and a 2011 Toyota. Right now it's looking like I may keep these 2 well past the 15 year mark, but we'll see.
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Watty
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Watty »

jebmke wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:55 am
chassis wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:59 pm
jebmke wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:37 am The second piece is interesting. Seems like a market jump from the 70s to 80+ although with a trend toward convergence.

In the back of my mind, I've always assumed that 80 may well be a time to stop driving assuming nothing triggers it before.
It's interesting. My dad is 83 and my brother and I don't feel good about his driving abilities. My dad tells stories of when he took his dad's keys away (my grandfather's keys), because my 80+ year old grandfather was driving on the wrong side of the road. Do I suggest that my dad stop driving, or do I wait until he has a disastrous mishap?
if you have concerns about his driving, I would not put off dealing with it. The mishap could impact him and/or someone else - neither of which is an acceptable outcome.

I periodically remind my wife that I am counting on her to intervene if she ever believes that I should no longer be driving.
Instead of trying to do some sort of intervention where you are trying to tell them to stop driving based on your judgement an alternative is to try to get them to agree to have a professional assessment where a trained professional will talk to them then take them out for a test drive and evaluate if they should stop driving or not.

https://exchange.aaa.com/safety/senior- ... g-ability/

It is more difficult to refuse to let someone outside the family evaluate their driving and a positive aspect for them is that the professional assessment might be that it is still OK for them to drive so you could promise to stop bugging them for a few years if the results are OK. You may want to try to set up a schedule where they would have a driving assessment every few years.

If they refuse to have a professional assessment then some states have a way to request that the state require them to have a driving test because of your concerns.
bigfry
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by bigfry »

Buy new, drive it for 10+ years, sell it when it becomes too old or unsafe and then buy something else. I personally like to use financing as a tool to get me the best possible out the door price deal and then I pay my car off immediately afterwards. I have a vendetta against holding consumer debt. I am not a car person so luxury cars are not something that interest me. I’ll be perfectly fine driving a Honda indefinitely.
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Minority Opinion
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by Minority Opinion »

Bought a 91 Honda Civic used, drove it for 250,000 miles (that thing went back and forth across the US a few times) and sold it for $3,000 to buy a new 2001 Tacoma which better suited my weekend activities. Still have the Tacoma, but bought a new 2019 Odyssey when the rear facing car seat wouldn't fit in back of the crew cab.

Truck is for weekend stuff, Odyssey is for moving the family around. Will probably keep the Odyssey for 10 years or more depending on how it holds up. It's our road trip vehicle so when I feel it might start breaking down in the middle of nowhere, or when the wife decides it doesn't feel safe, we'll trade it for something new. Whether that vehicle is going to be new or used will depend on what the car market looks like in 7 years. If it was just me, I'd drive it until it didn't make sense to fix it.
GettingCloser
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by GettingCloser »

DW and I have gone through three distinct phases wrt cars over the past ~30 years:

Young & Clueless
In the early years, we were “normal” — net worth near zero, and new car loans helped keep it that way.

Frugal New Parents
After discovering frugality (thanks to Dave Ramsey, Clark Howard, et al), we switched to used cars bought with cash and driven forever.

Comfortable Empty Nesters
Now that we’re in the two comma club, we buy a modest new car with cash every 6-7 years — still LBYM, but the ‘M’ has grown ;-). Garage currently holds two Kia plug-in hybrids (new & 3.5yo), so we’re pure EV in daily life, but have unlimited range when we go visit the kids.
opus360
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Re: How Do You Do Cars?

Post by opus360 »

I sell my car when frequent repair cost are getting too high. But, I am not sure if this is ideal from a financial view. I read somewhere that better to buy an 8 to 11 year old car, then sell somewhere between 15 and 18 year-old. Sell the car while there is still value but you have used it enough is the idea. Any thoughts on this?
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