HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

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SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 pm I will be interested to hear, from those who go along with the switch, if they get individual account numbers at New York Community Bank, and whether it continues to be possible to make deposits and withdrawals directly from that bank account without having HM Bradley as an intermediary.
If someone hasn't prior, I will let you know, as that's exactly what I want to test.

If they take this away, HMBradley becomes dead to me.
frugalor
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by frugalor »

MrJedi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:08 pm New banking partner with New York Community Bank and slightly different structure to earning interest. Highest rate is still 3%. Saving rate is slightly relaxed as now you only need a positive cash flow into the account each month instead of saving at least 20% of all deposits every quarter. $500 monthly credit card spend still required to get the highest rate. New account requires actually opening a new account.

Also they are closing the Hatch Bank accounts after October 31. If you do not transfer out or initiate the close yourself, they are going close it and mail you a check after October 31.

https://www.hmbradley.com/blog/a-new-chapter

Noncompetitive for me. I plan to transfer out the last few dollars I have and let them close my Hatch account. I don't think I'm going to open the new one.
Not attractive. One Finance gives 3% on their savings account without deposit or credit card requirements. T-Bill/Note is earning over 4% now without state tax.
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Vulcan
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Vulcan »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.

I transferred all my HMB deposits to DollarSavingsDirect the day before the announcement. 3% APR with 0% hoops.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.

I transferred all my HMB deposits to DollarSavingsDirect the day before the announcement. 3% APR with 0% hoops.
After my due diligence so I felt comfortable my money was "safe"... When I signed up, I thought the same thing. But as their rates were so vastly better then everyone else (and I deemed them "safe"), I was willing to pay along thinking if I got 6 months at 3% (actually 3.5% back then), it was far better than I was getting elsewhere.

I think it's now been something like 18 months, they've maintained 3% (or more) the entire time I've used them. And now they have a new partner, and seem to be continuing to offer the same 3% rate going forward...

So respectfully, I disagree. I think their model seems like it's working out much better than you or I expected, so I'll give them the win and say that I think their model seems to be doing just fine.

If your argument is that their rates are no longer competitive, to me that's not part of their model (or at least not how I think of their model). When all other banks were paying < 0.1% many many months ago, they were paying 3%. So in my mind, their model was to offer a predictable high rate that wasn't indexed/tied to the market rates, rewarding those who "save" money (which was 20% of deposits and is now $500+ a month in savings). Again, they've done that for the 12-18+ months I've known them...

Yes, I'm disappointed that their rates are no longer competitive, and I'll likely be moving out the vast majority of my funds to other options.

But do you really expect banks to keep rates at > 3% for years? I sure hope not... Inflation is showing itself as a nasty thing, so I'm hoping rate fall ASAP.

Which comes back to HMBradley's model. As I see it, if they continue to offer a 3% rate as others fall back towards 1%, that would be amazing. And so far, that's exactly what they've done.

So while I'll move my money in the short run to alternatives, I'm not willing to just write off HMBradley. If they keep doing what they've already done, I'll want to continue to benefit from it when rates start going the other way. And now with their revised 1-month savings tier refresh, they've effectively removed any penalties from doing so.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by patrick »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:28 pm
Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.

I transferred all my HMB deposits to DollarSavingsDirect the day before the announcement. 3% APR with 0% hoops.
After my due diligence so I felt comfortable my money was "safe"... When I signed up, I thought the same thing. But as their rates were so vastly better then everyone else (and I deemed them "safe"), I was willing to pay along thinking if I got 6 months at 3% (actually 3.5% back then), it was far better than I was getting elsewhere.

I think it's now been something like 18 months, they've maintained 3% (or more) the entire time I've used them. And now they have a new partner, and seem to be continuing to offer the same 3% rate going forward...

So respectfully, I disagree. I think their model seems like it's working out much better than you or I expected, so I'll give them the win and say that I think their model seems to be doing just fine.

If your argument is that their rates are no longer competitive, to me that's not part of their model (or at least not how I think of their model). When all other banks were paying < 0.1% many many months ago, they were paying 3%. So in my mind, their model was to offer a predictable high rate that wasn't indexed/tied to the market rates, rewarding those who "save" money (which was 20% of deposits and is now $500+ a month in savings). Again, they've done that for the 12-18+ months I've known them...

Yes, I'm disappointed that their rates are no longer competitive, and I'll likely be moving out the vast majority of my funds to other options.

But do you really expect banks to keep rates at > 3% for years? I sure hope not... Inflation is showing itself as a nasty thing, so I'm hoping rate fall ASAP.

Which comes back to HMBradley's model. As I see it, if they continue to offer a 3% rate as others fall back towards 1%, that would be amazing. And so far, that's exactly what they've done.

So while I'll move my money in the short run to alternatives, I'm not willing to just write off HMBradley. If they keep doing what they've already done, I'll want to continue to benefit from it when rates start going the other way. And now with their revised 1-month savings tier refresh, they've effectively removed any penalties from doing so.
HMBradley definitely stayed competitive longer than I had expected.

HMBradley used to be the best for rather large deposit accounts, but the advantage wasn't necessarily dramatic for most people. T-Mobile Money was already paying 1% with no limit in early 2021, and there were several options paying over 3% on small amounts.

It's more dramatic if you compare with Treasuries. When I made my opening deposit at HMBradley (September 2, 2020) the 2-year Treasury yielded only 0.14% compared to 4.22% today. In other words, HMBradley fell from 2.86% above 2-year Treasuries to 1.22% below them.
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Vulcan
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Vulcan »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:28 pm Which comes back to HMBradley's model. As I see it, if they continue to offer a 3% rate as others fall back towards 1%, that would be amazing. And so far, that's exactly what they've done.

So while I'll move my money in the short run to alternatives, I'm not willing to just write off HMBradley. If they keep doing what they've already done, I'll want to continue to benefit from it when rates start going the other way. And now with their revised 1-month savings tier refresh, they've effectively removed any penalties from doing so.
Right now what we see is that their current model has already failed.

Not only do they pay below market rates, but they make you jump through more and more hoops to get it - including opening new bank accounts now.

I don't know what inflation will do, but I doubt HMB's model #2 (or #3 or #4, depending on how you count them) will last long enough to see the other side of it.

Either way, I'm glad I'm out, I never enjoyed this relationship, but the rate was good for a while. It's not anymore. Buh-bye. Simple as that.

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patrick
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by patrick »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:17 pm If you have an actual bank account, held directly at an FDIC-insured bank, and the bank fails, your money is not tied up. Or, at least, this was not the case when I had money in an NCUA-insured credit union that failed, nor was it the case when a colleague of mine had money in an FSLIC-insured savings & loan that failed.

In both cases, it was truly a nonevent.

In my case, the credit union had one sign over the door on Friday, and when I came in to work on Monday I noted there was another sign over the door, and a stack of handouts. The next statement I received had a different logo printed at the top. It had been taken over by different credit union. Although I guess it isn't always the case, our CD ladder, which at the time represented important money for us, kept the same interest rates (and account numbers). It wasn't even an inconvenience.

The issue with these fintechs is that you have an indirect relationship with the FDIC-insured bank. In the case of HMBradley, you apparently do have an individual direct channel to the bank that holds your deposits. Nuestroro raised the possibility that despite this, the business relationships between a hypothetically bankrupt HMBradley and its creditors might somehow interfere with that. (I'm thinking creditors might have blanket objection to any assets leaving the HMBradley orbit).

The point here is that a) every fintech and its exact relation with the bank that is "backing it up" is different; b) analyzing that relationship is complicated; c) that relationship could change. For example, if I recall correctly, HMBradley at one point implied that they might place customers' funds with a network of different banks, rather than always placing them with an individually identifiable and directly accessible account at Hatch Bank. Apparently they didn't. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but the point is still valid.

An account directly at an FDIC insured actual it-really-is-a-bank is a known quantity, with a many-decade history of depositors not being hurt when a bank fails.

An account with one of this "we are not a bank, we are a fintech that provides banking services by using a bank" is something new, and legitimately suspect. Beam Financial was not OK, despite the "FDIC" language. The fintechs are introducing an extra layer of risk, and they are so new that it is hard to appraise that risk. You need to be a "fintech lawyer" to appraise the risk accurately. It is not the same as a bank account. You don't need an FDIC lawyer.
Recent events remind us that FDIC-insured deposits still have a major risk: inflation.

I withdrew all my money at HMBradley after 21 months with no difficulty. No fintech-specific risk showed up. The 13.8% cumulative inflation over that period means I still lost money in real terms, but I would have lost even more in a regular bank account with a lower interest rate.

Although the amount of fintech-specific risk is hard to quantify, I think it is much smaller than inflation risk for HMBradley-like accounts, so the relative increase in risk would be only a small fraction. At this point the only deposit account I use that isn't directly with the financial institution is HEB Debit paying 6% with a $2000 limit so it seems to matter even less now.
engaged73016
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by engaged73016 »

MrJedi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:36 pm I plan to keep an eye on the account at least. The credit card hoop is by far the biggest deterrent for me. If rates plummet again I may consider jumping through that hoop but not with current rates.

It does appear that the credit card spend/payment still doesn't count against the saving rate (now just positive cash flow rate). Emphasis mine.
  • Customers who open an HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB will be rewarded with 1.00% APY just for signing up. There’s no need for a monthly direct deposit or requirement to save any deposits.
  • Customers who make a direct deposit of at least $500 per month to their HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB and maintain positive monthly cash flow (meaning that monthly deposits exceed monthly withdrawals, not including HMBradley Credit Card payments) will earn 2.00% APY in the following month.
  • Customers who fulfill the requirements in the previous bullet point and also spend $500 per month on their HMBradley Credit Card will earn 3.00% APY in the following month.
Does anyone know what will happen to the interest proceeds for the month of October?
It looks like HMB will lower the rates on October 14 to 0.01% anyways, but what about from October 1 to 13, what rate is applied? And when/how will these proceeds be paid?
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PicassoSparks
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by PicassoSparks »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 pm I will be interested to hear, from those who go along with the switch, if they get individual account numbers at New York Community Bank, and whether it continues to be possible to make deposits and withdrawals directly from that bank account without having HM Bradley as an intermediary.
Given the steps they are asking people to take it seems like they are heading towards a single account on the NYCB side as well.
We are asking our current deposit accountholders to switch by opening HMBradley Deposit Accounts with NYCB and closing their deposit accounts at Hatch Bank. Don’t worry, though – switching to NYCB is as easy as clicking a few buttons within your account! As part of this transition, you will be prompted to review and accept a new Deposit Account Agreement and Disclosures. Once you’ve made the switch, you can transfer funds from your Hatch Bank account (including any funds in a Plan) to your new HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB and close your account with Hatch Bank in just a few clicks. Your account with NYCB will have a new routing and account number, so make sure to redirect your direct deposit and all recurring ACH transfers to the new account.
It's a bit wild that they are giving people just over 1 month's notice. That's a pretty big ask of people to make changes on a short timeline.
It’s important to switch to an account with NYCB by October 31, 2022. After October 31, 2022, Hatch Bank will no longer process deposit or debit transactions. This includes ACH transfers, direct deposits, incoming wire transfers, mobile check deposits, debit card transactions, and ACH debits. If you do not open your new deposit account at NYCB by October 31, 2022, or reach out prior to that date to close your account, Hatch Bank will automatically close your deposit account. A check for any remaining balance over $1.00 will be mailed to your address on file.
For people who get paid monthly, that's very little buffer for finding out that something has gone wrong with your payroll processor and it still went to the old account. Hopefully it goes well!
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nisiprius
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by nisiprius »

patrick wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 pm..Although the amount of fintech-specific risk is hard to quantify, I think it is much smaller than inflation risk for HMBradley-like accounts, so the relative increase in risk would be only a small fraction...
You have a reasonable point there.

(Fintech-specific risk is hard to evaluate, particularly if you restrict it to "fintech-specific risk after doing reasonable due diligence.")
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MrJedi
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by MrJedi »

Not definitive, but I'll add that the whole aspect of needing to open a new account with new routing and account numbers through NYCB and closing the Hatch Bank accounts gives some more credence that the accounts are properly held and at the respective FDIC institutions. They're not able to just do some black box switcheroo without your sign off...while it's annoying (I'm not going to bother, more due to credit card hoops and their constantly changing terms), this actually gives me more confidence in the account structure.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

MrJedi wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am Not definitive, but I'll add that the whole aspect of needing to open a new account with new routing and account numbers through NYCB and closing the Hatch Bank accounts gives some more credence that the accounts are properly held and at the respective FDIC institutions. They're not able to just do some black box switcheroo without your sign off...while it's annoying (I'm not going to bother, more due to credit card hoops and their constantly changing terms), this actually gives me more confidence in the account structure.
That's my default view as well... And seems supported by language in the email such as:
Discontinue any recurring ACH or debit card electronic funds transfers from your deposit account at Hatch Bank and re-establish those ACH transactions from your new HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB.
I'm going to wait until next week to make any changes, let the September interest post first. Then I'll probably pull out nearly all of my money from Hatch, as if I don't get a routing & account number for the NYCB side of things I'll be closing my account.

Assuming I get the new account number, I'll try transferring some of the money back and see how it goes.
Last edited by SnowBog on Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

PicassoSparks wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:49 am For people who get paid monthly, that's very little buffer for finding out that something has gone wrong with your payroll processor and it still went to the old account. Hopefully it goes well!
There was a separate section that addressed this, and made it clear can have until Nov. 30 to make this change if needed:
o allow for the time it takes to switch your direct deposits, we will give you the option to permit us, until November 30, 2022, to redirect these deposits from your deposit account at Hatch Bank to your new HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB (“Switch Service”).
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by JBTX »

I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by oldlongbeard »

JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:31 pm I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Not everyone has their money yet.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by gonggong »

PicassoSparks wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:49 am It's a bit wild that they are giving people just over 1 month's notice. That's a pretty big ask of people to make changes on a short timeline.
SnowBog wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:17 pm There was a separate section that addressed this, and made it clear can have until Nov. 30 to make this change if needed:
o allow for the time it takes to switch your direct deposits, we will give you the option to permit us, until November 30, 2022, to redirect these deposits from your deposit account at Hatch Bank to your new HMBradley Deposit Account with NYCB (“Switch Service”).
I agree. This is really frustrating to me because my parents have their social security checks direct deposited to Hatch. Social Security can take up to 2 months to change direct deposit banks. Hopefully the redirects from Hatch to NYCB for October and November go smoothly and SSA updates it in time for December's (which is going to their primary bank, not NYCB).
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Nate79 »

oldlongbeard wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:33 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:31 pm I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Not everyone has their money yet.
What are you implying?
billaster
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by billaster »

Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.
Can anybody even explain their "model"?

If not, it's just fintech gobbledegook. I certainly wouldn't put my money in a business that doesn't make easily explainable sense.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by JBTX »

billaster wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:27 pm
Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.
Can anybody even explain their "model"?

If not, it's just fintech gobbledegook. I certainly wouldn't put my money in a business that doesn't make easily explainable sense.
I’ve seen and been a part of businesses that have a primary function of customer acquisition. Build up to a certain size and sell. I’ve always suspected that was what this was but I really don’t know.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by JBTX »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 pm
oldlongbeard wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:33 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:31 pm I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Not everyone has their money yet.
What are you implying?
Well I have the final $1500 coming back in the next couple of days so I guess we will see.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by ernest3 »

I just did the conversion. It took a few minutes for my balance to show up in the new account but overall pretty seamless. I’m keeping this account for now for flexibility if rates drop next year.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by soxfan10 »

JBTX wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:03 am
billaster wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:27 pm
Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.
Can anybody even explain their "model"?

If not, it's just fintech gobbledegook. I certainly wouldn't put my money in a business that doesn't make easily explainable sense.
I’ve seen and been a part of businesses that have a primary function of customer acquisition. Build up to a certain size and sell. I’ve always suspected that was what this was but I really don’t know.
Their model was (and still is) providing their banking partner with cheap consistent financing - either you provide more financing to the banking partner each quarter (or run money through the card so the banking partner can earn the interchange fee on the card) or the partner pays almost nothing on all existing financing. That provides a growth bank with access to a pretty significant pool of cheap, relatively dependable capital. That was the purpose the "tiers" for Hatch and the "revised" cash flow model they are using with the new partner - not really much different.

This isnt some gobbledegook - customer deposits are usually the cheapest financing a bank has (both from an effective rate perspective as well as an operational simplicity perspective as compared to say repos, which can be very difficult to manage from an ongoing operational perspective especially for smaller banks) and expanding deposits, especially for smaller banks, is key to their success.

In any event, I will be pulling my money out by the end of the month after ~18 months of enjoying the 3% rate. I was already considering moving, but was planning to give them another couple of months to see if they moved to 1.25/3.75 on the old model. Money markets are up close to 3% and will be moving in excess of 3% soon. Likely will yield 4%+ in 2023. Wont complain about the extra $3-4k yield on my liquid funds over the period.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by billaster »

soxfan10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:06 pm Their model was (and still is) providing their banking partner with cheap consistent financing.
It seems their model is more akin to "We lose money on every deposit but we'll make up in volume."
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by nolesrule »

I did the account change on Friday.

The only thing I've been unable to do is re-establish the credit card autopay with the new bank account. It's just not in the list of accounts. Can't even use the new account for a manual payment.
soxfan10
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by soxfan10 »

billaster wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:13 am
soxfan10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:06 pm Their model was (and still is) providing their banking partner with cheap consistent financing.
It seems their model is more akin to "We lose money on every deposit but we'll make up in volume."
Maybe, maybe not. They aren't the deposit institution so they just get some sort of referral fee. Again, deposit funding is generally a bank's cheapest financing so it usually makes sense for banks (and especially smaller ones) to try to do what they can to lock it in.
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by engaged73016 »

nolesrule wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:56 am I did the account change on Friday.

The only thing I've been unable to do is re-establish the credit card autopay with the new bank account. It's just not in the list of accounts. Can't even use the new account for a manual payment.
Are you still able to make a one time payment though? Or is that not available yet either?
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by nolesrule »

engaged73016 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:56 am
nolesrule wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:56 am I did the account change on Friday.

The only thing I've been unable to do is re-establish the credit card autopay with the new bank account. It's just not in the list of accounts. Can't even use the new account for a manual payment.
Are you still able to make a one time payment though? Or is that not available yet either?
It wasn't available through yesterday. But I just logged in and the account is available for manual and auto pay now.
engaged73016
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by engaged73016 »

nolesrule wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:05 am
engaged73016 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:56 am
nolesrule wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:56 am I did the account change on Friday.

The only thing I've been unable to do is re-establish the credit card autopay with the new bank account. It's just not in the list of accounts. Can't even use the new account for a manual payment.
Are you still able to make a one time payment though? Or is that not available yet either?
It wasn't available through yesterday. But I just logged in and the account is available for manual and auto pay now.
Thanks!
Apologies, I realize the answer to my question was in your original message.
It's good to know that it resolved itself within a business day.
I plan on switching my accounts today.
I called them on Friday, and FWIW, I was told that the accrued interest from October 1st to the day of conversion should "carry over" to the new account.
mhop
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by mhop »

billaster wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:27 pm
Vulcan wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:06 pm
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:29 pm Against other current market rates, this is not really attractive anymore, as you can get similar with perhaps no hoops... But I still plan on keeping an account open for awhile, in the hopes that inflation/interest rates return to "normal" (good for our retirement portfolios) which means banks will return to paying far less, and if HMBradley maintains their model, they'll return to paying above market rates.
Their model was never going to last... and so it didn't.
Can anybody even explain their "model"?
They took a short term loss for every account that opened with them a while back, offering above market rates at 3% on their products when prevailing rates were below 1%. In turn, that created a customer base they could offer credit cards to - their cc business theoretically began pulling in interest to some degree at more favorable APRs of 16-24%. They also have the ability to offer personal loans for things like cars which puts money back in their pockets. Beyond all of that, treasury rates are much higher so I don't doubt they're now profitable on each deposit account without taking too much risk as short term treasuries are paying at or above 3%.
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PicassoSparks
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by PicassoSparks »

soxfan10 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:50 pm Maybe, maybe not. They aren't the deposit institution so they just get some sort of referral fee. Again, deposit funding is generally a bank's cheapest financing so it usually makes sense for banks (and especially smaller ones) to try to do what they can to lock it in.
I think this is right. Deposits and the way banks make money from them is much more interesting than I ever realized.
https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-a ... -deposits/
billaster
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by billaster »

soxfan10 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:50 pm
billaster wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:13 am
soxfan10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:06 pm Their model was (and still is) providing their banking partner with cheap consistent financing.
It seems their model is more akin to "We lose money on every deposit but we'll make up in volume."
They aren't the deposit institution so they just get some sort of referral fee. Again, deposit funding is generally a bank's cheapest financing so it usually makes sense for banks (and especially smaller ones) to try to do what they can to lock it in.
A bank's cheapest financing becomes less cheap if they have to pay a third party to acquire it. As for "lock it in", what does that mean? By definition bank deposits are the most liquid of assets and instantly transferable.

You have a third party extracting fees in the middle. How is that better for banks or their customers? That's a tax on every transaction between bank and customer.

There is no free lunch. If HM Bradley is paying higher rates than other banks while simultaneously extracting fees for itself, it has to be coming out of somebody's pocket -- either the bank's or HM Bradley investor's subsidies ala Uber.
Escapevelocity
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Escapevelocity »

Just transferred my entire balance to my checking account and then onward it will go to Fidelity to buy 1 year T-Bills
oldlongbeard
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by oldlongbeard »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 pm
oldlongbeard wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:33 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:31 pm I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Not everyone has their money yet.
What are you implying?
Nothing. Just stating a fact.
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

oldlongbeard wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:37 pm
Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:02 pm
oldlongbeard wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:33 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:31 pm I had pulled almost all of my money out some weeks ago, because the interest rate was no longer competitive enough vs other alternatives to warrant the modest hoops - also me having put much liquidity into ibonds.

I’ll pull the remaining balance out now.

As to HMBradley being a failure, not sure how one can conclude that, because ultimately I’m not sure what their objectives were and whether this change is in line with their objectives.

And for all those who seemed bound and determined to make this out to be more risky than it really was, that didn’t turn out to be the case.
Not everyone has their money yet.
What are you implying?
Nothing. Just stating a fact.
I'm not sure its a usefull fact...

It's like saying not everyone has their money yet from Vanguard, Fidelity, Capital One, US Bank, or any other entity that still holds customer deposits...
soxfan10
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by soxfan10 »

billaster wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:18 pm
soxfan10 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:50 pm
billaster wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:13 am
soxfan10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:06 pm Their model was (and still is) providing their banking partner with cheap consistent financing.
It seems their model is more akin to "We lose money on every deposit but we'll make up in volume."
They aren't the deposit institution so they just get some sort of referral fee. Again, deposit funding is generally a bank's cheapest financing so it usually makes sense for banks (and especially smaller ones) to try to do what they can to lock it in.
A bank's cheapest financing becomes less cheap if they have to pay a third party to acquire it. As for "lock it in", what does that mean? By definition bank deposits are the most liquid of assets and instantly transferable.

You have a third party extracting fees in the middle. How is that better for banks or their customers? That's a tax on every transaction between bank and customer.

There is no free lunch. If HM Bradley is paying higher rates than other banks while simultaneously extracting fees for itself, it has to be coming out of somebody's pocket -- either the bank's or HM Bradley investor's subsidies ala Uber.
Customer deposits are considerably stickier, less prone to bank runs, and less administrative burdensome than most inter-bank funding (for example repos generally need to be rolled either daily or weekly - just that process can be difficult for smaller banks). If the funding declines (e.g., there is a net withdrawals over a period), the rate paid is quite low under the historical model - that creates a lock in effect where depositors with significant deposits dont want to pull their money. Of course this really only works while they are paying above market to do so - so it worked great in 2021 and early 2022 when they were paying a good 200 bps above market. At 25-60 bps premium, it might not work so well.

Of course HM Bradley's fee comes from somewhere - it comes from its partner bank - Hatch decided it wasnt worth it so they found someone else who is apparently willing to pay them. Its better for consumers for the period of time where it can offer an above market rate. Not sure what the debate is there - I probably received $3k or so additional yield from it over market over the time i held the account. For the bank, Im not sure how its any different than any other marketing agreement/customer acquisition costs because thats exactly what it is.
soxfan10
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by soxfan10 »

PicassoSparks wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:45 am
soxfan10 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:50 pm Maybe, maybe not. They aren't the deposit institution so they just get some sort of referral fee. Again, deposit funding is generally a bank's cheapest financing so it usually makes sense for banks (and especially smaller ones) to try to do what they can to lock it in.
I think this is right. Deposits and the way banks make money from them is much more interesting than I ever realized.
https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-a ... -deposits/
Yes, I wont say deposits are the cheapest/most desirable financing for every bank, but in general that is what the banking industry has been for its history. Many people think of banks as making money through account fees and the like and while those have been a profit center (and in some periods before regulation highly profitable), the history of the industry is to use the cheap deposit financing to make loans and investments while maintaining their capital structure and some level of reserves.

Larger banks have considerably more ability to borrow in other markets with institutional lenders and even they have generally been quite aggressive in acquiring deposit accounts (e.g., BOA's M&A spree in the 90s and 00s). For small banks that generally have harder times in those markets, deposits are critical to continuing their operations.

Just as an example, deposit interest rates (excluding online banks when rates tank where they commit to a minimal rate - recently 0.5%) typically trend at least 75-100bps below 1 month LIBOR (currently ~3.1%). That is materially cheaper and considerably widen lending spreads.
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:11 pm
nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 pm I will be interested to hear, from those who go along with the switch, if they get individual account numbers at New York Community Bank, and whether it continues to be possible to make deposits and withdrawals directly from that bank account without having HM Bradley as an intermediary.
If someone hasn't prior, I will let you know, as that's exactly what I want to test.
I haven't seen anyone post details yet, so I will...

Confirmed - still have a routing number and account number after transfer.

I need to finish setting up direct deposit and linking my banks. But thus far I've seen nothing to indicate any changes from how things used to work.

Not sure when I'll have time to finish setup and testing, but I plan to test ACH pull/push with the new NYCB account from my Fidelity account (which I use as a "hub" account). Again, if no one has posted details by then, I'll provide an update.

For anyone who cares, so far the transition processes has been seamless. They were maybe "overcommunicating" the change - couldn't see much else in the app except for the notices to move your account. And after making the change, the app is very clear about next steps (change direct deposit, relink external bank accounts, re-enable auto-pay for credit card).

One thing I'm not sure I've seen posted yet and/or not sure if I was aware of is they are not offering a debit card at this time. I'm actually OK with that as I've never used it, had it locked, and given the option would have refused the card anyway. But if people used the debit card, this is a notable item missing after the change.

And my "biggest concern" going forward is the increase to the credit card requirements up from I thought like $100 to now $500 monthly spend to get the 3% rate. I'll need to see if I can move over that much "automatic" spend, as I really don't want to carry another card with me. OK, that and if I can find better rates elsewhere... :wink:
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

SnowBog wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:20 am
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:11 pm
nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 pm I will be interested to hear, from those who go along with the switch, if they get individual account numbers at New York Community Bank, and whether it continues to be possible to make deposits and withdrawals directly from that bank account without having HM Bradley as an intermediary.
If someone hasn't prior, I will let you know, as that's exactly what I want to test.
I haven't seen anyone post details yet, so I will...

Confirmed - still have a routing number and account number after transfer.

I need to finish setting up direct deposit and linking my banks. But thus far I've seen nothing to indicate any changes from how things used to work.

Not sure when I'll have time to finish setup and testing, but I plan to test ACH pull/push with the new NYCB account from my Fidelity account (which I use as a "hub" account). Again, if no one has posted details by then, I'll provide an update.

For anyone who cares, so far the transition processes has been seamless. They were maybe "overcommunicating" the change - couldn't see much else in the app except for the notices to move your account. And after making the change, the app is very clear about next steps (change direct deposit, relink external bank accounts, re-enable auto-pay for credit card).

One thing I'm not sure I've seen posted yet and/or not sure if I was aware of is they are not offering a debit card at this time. I'm actually OK with that as I've never used it, had it locked, and given the option would have refused the card anyway. But if people used the debit card, this is a notable item missing after the change.

And my "biggest concern" going forward is the increase to the credit card requirements up from I thought like $100 to now $500 monthly spend to get the 3% rate. I'll need to see if I can move over that much "automatic" spend, as I really don't want to carry another card with me. OK, that and if I can find better rates elsewhere... :wink:
And can confirm that the account allows ACH pull/push from other accounts. Was able to transfer money out and in using the account, same as the Hatch account used to work.
JBTX
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by JBTX »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:15 am
SnowBog wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:20 am
SnowBog wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:11 pm
nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 pm I will be interested to hear, from those who go along with the switch, if they get individual account numbers at New York Community Bank, and whether it continues to be possible to make deposits and withdrawals directly from that bank account without having HM Bradley as an intermediary.
If someone hasn't prior, I will let you know, as that's exactly what I want to test.
I haven't seen anyone post details yet, so I will...

Confirmed - still have a routing number and account number after transfer.

I need to finish setting up direct deposit and linking my banks. But thus far I've seen nothing to indicate any changes from how things used to work.

Not sure when I'll have time to finish setup and testing, but I plan to test ACH pull/push with the new NYCB account from my Fidelity account (which I use as a "hub" account). Again, if no one has posted details by then, I'll provide an update.

For anyone who cares, so far the transition processes has been seamless. They were maybe "overcommunicating" the change - couldn't see much else in the app except for the notices to move your account. And after making the change, the app is very clear about next steps (change direct deposit, relink external bank accounts, re-enable auto-pay for credit card).

One thing I'm not sure I've seen posted yet and/or not sure if I was aware of is they are not offering a debit card at this time. I'm actually OK with that as I've never used it, had it locked, and given the option would have refused the card anyway. But if people used the debit card, this is a notable item missing after the change.

And my "biggest concern" going forward is the increase to the credit card requirements up from I thought like $100 to now $500 monthly spend to get the 3% rate. I'll need to see if I can move over that much "automatic" spend, as I really don't want to carry another card with me. OK, that and if I can find better rates elsewhere... :wink:
And can confirm that the account allows ACH pull/push from other accounts. Was able to transfer money out and in using the account, same as the Hatch account used to work.
I moved almost all of my money out, but did leave a token amount in and successfully completed the transfer to NYCB- given a new routing and acct number and linked via trial deposits from my outside bank account.
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

I'm actually planning to move my money back in...

Again, my particular use case is building up the cash to fund 2x IRA, HSA, 529, and Savings Bonds purchases in January. The last 3-month Treasury might have paid an extra $20 or so (maybe a little more since no state taxes), but I would have had to wait 2+ weeks longer than I'd prefer to make my other investments. My other alternative was leaving it in Fidelity's FZDXX, which currently has a 3% rate right now as well, but that's variable could be better or worse.

With the new account, I'll get 3% even if I don't keep a positive cash flow for the remainder of the year. So if I find something better, I can still switch.

I'll pull out all the money I need in late December, so I won't even be out 1-month next year of the higher interest rate. But anything in excess of what I need might find its way to a 6- to 12- month Treasury, if the rate remains higher than 3%...
nolesrule
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by nolesrule »

I'm using the opportunity to pull out money to fund the Ally promo deal, since it ends up being double the HM Bradley rate for 3 months.

I've already switched the direct deposit to the lower amount I'll decide what to do long term closer to the end of the year.
engaged73016
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by engaged73016 »

I imagine that you have all seen that the higher tier rate is now 4%. Still less than treasuries, but not bad.
It's rather a positive sign that they are able to adjust rates up.
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Nate79
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Nate79 »

HMBradley just increased their rate from 3% to now 4% with some of their usual stipulations. We already moved to tbills and dollarsavingdirect (@3.5%). Doubt it's worth it to chase 0.5% when rates are moving up quickly.

Oops, posted same time as above.
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

engaged73016 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:39 pm I imagine that you have all seen that the higher tier rate is now 4%. Still less than treasuries, but not bad.
It's rather a positive sign that they are able to adjust rates up.
Very interesting... Where did you see this? I haven't gotten an email [yet], don't see anything when I log in, nor anything on their web page...

I was actually in the process of pulling most of my money out and buying 1- to 3-month Treasuries. I planned on doing that unless/until the 1-month rates went below HMBradley's rate. Not sure this changes that, other than if they stick with 4% for a while, it might happen sooner than I had expected...
Auream
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Auream »

I got an e-mail. You should be getting one soon, or check your spam folder.
MrJedi
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by MrJedi »

Nice to see they increased the rate but still barely competitive IMO. 3.0-3.6% is a dime a dozen now with zero requirements at other banks. The $500 credit card spend is killer. High enough to be difficult to automate and it cuts into higher cashback rates you can get from other cards. You would need a pretty fat stack of cash in there to make it worthwhile, and if you have a fat stack in there you could probably stand to reach up on the treasury yield curve a bit and grab some of those 4+% yields even at the short end.
Auream
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Auream »

MrJedi wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:22 pm Nice to see they increased the rate but still barely competitive IMO. 3.0-3.6% is a dime a dozen now with zero requirements at other banks. The $500 credit card spend is killer.
I mostly agree, but they had previously announced that no requirements were needed to get the top rate until April, 2023. If that still applies for the 4% rate, then this is pretty good. By April they’ll either have to raise the rate again, or there will be other banks offering over 4% without the hoops. Hoping that the “no-hoops” period hasn’t been reset due to the rate bump, but I can’t really tell for sure.
SnowBog
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by SnowBog »

Auream wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:10 pm I got an e-mail. You should be getting one soon, or check your spam folder.
Was in spam... :oops:

Also eventually got a mobile notification, but clicking on it showed no details in the mobile app. Guess the notice went before the website and mobile were updated.
Auream
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by Auream »

Auream wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:35 pm Hoping that the “no-hoops” period hasn’t been reset due to the rate bump, but I can’t really tell for sure.
Responding to myself: looks like there are no hoops on the account until April 30, 2023: https://www.hmbradley.com/new-NYCB-acco ... ember-2022

If you have just the checking/savings account, you earn "Level 2" until then which is now 3%. If you also have the credit card, you earn "Level 3" which is now 4%. No requirements for DD amount or credit card spending until after April 2023. For those who were already on the 3% train with the credit card, this seems like a no-brainer to park your money until other accounts catch up over the next few months.
engaged73016
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Re: HM Bradley - is it safe - FDIC response

Post by engaged73016 »

Good morning,
Does anyone still have their direct deposit set up to their HMB account (and properly updated with the NYCB account info) and scheduled to come in today?
For some reason, mine has not hit the HMB account yet (but part of the same DD has reached my other account at another bank).
Thanks.
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