New fee for Vanguard mutual [and brokerage accounts - July 2023 updates]

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politely
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by politely »

I tried helping a relative move their account today. Not only did it not work, but it required calling CSR, where we were informed that the expected wait time was over an hour. So no transition today. We sent an email letting them know we tried. It's true we could have done it earlier, but why? They clearly say that the "process takes only a few minutes." And there was always the chance that they could change their minds.

I think it's a sign of the times. I've been a client for about 20 years. Vanguard just isn't what it used to be and I'm thinking of moving my accounts. My recent experiences have been very disappointing, including having them transfer one of my accounts to someone else, providing misleading information, and having some of my messages ignored.

Anyway, as for this move, it just doesn't make sense. For a company built on mutual funds to insist on converting everyone to a brokerage platform seems indicative of a change in mission. A brokerage that can transition customers from another company but can't transition their own customers is a head-scratcher. For a consumer company willing to lose customers because the company won't convert their own proprietary data is perplexing, if not just dumb.

For those folks who compare this to transitioning businesses away from obsolete platforms, that is apples and oranges. Vanguard clearly has the capacity to transition its customers - why not just do it for everyone? And with a new system, it should be simple to restrict certain accounts to mutual funds. This is something that they could have done seamlessly in the background.

I'm sure there is some complicated reason they're doing it this way, but it just seems like more terrible planning and decision making.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

politely wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:53 am I tried helping a relative move their account today. Not only did it not work, but it required calling CSR, where we were informed that the expected wait time was over an hour. So no transition today. We sent an email letting them know we tried. It's true we could have done it earlier, but why? They clearly say that the "process takes only a few minutes." And there was always the chance that they could change their minds.

I think it's a sign of the times. I've been a client for about 20 years. Vanguard just isn't what it used to be and I'm thinking of moving my accounts. My recent experiences have been very disappointing, including having them transfer one of my accounts to someone else, providing misleading information, and having some of my messages ignored.

Anyway, as for this move, it just doesn't make sense. For a company built on mutual funds to insist on converting everyone to a brokerage platform seems indicative of a change in mission. A brokerage that can transition customers from another company but can't transition their own customers is a head-scratcher. For a consumer company willing to lose customers because the company won't convert their own proprietary data is perplexing, if not just dumb.

For those folks who compare this to transitioning businesses away from obsolete platforms, that is apples and oranges. Vanguard clearly has the capacity to transition its customers - why not just do it for everyone? And with a new system, it should be simple to restrict certain accounts to mutual funds. This is something that they could have done seamlessly in the background.

I'm sure there is some complicated reason they're doing it this way, but it just seems like more terrible planning and decision making.
They cannot transition you without your explicit consent and action. Switching to a brokerage account changes your securities from directly held to street name. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

If they could have just done it automatically, they would have.
rkhusky
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

Investment101 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:06 am So after transition you can buy funds from other companies in the brokerage account right? What non vanguard funds do you guys got or recommend, I want to take a look, any non-vanguard funds that VTSAX and VTIAX don't got or can add value? Thanks
You probably want to buy non-Vanguard ETF's, not mutual funds, due to the costs associated with the latter ($20/trade with exceptions). You can only buy mutual funds from other companies and ETF's on the brokerage platform.

Buying ETF's does open up a broad range of TLH partners. (For example, see viewtopic.php?p=6072111#p6072111)
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:48 am Likewise, I have edited my post. In this case, two wrongs do make one right. :)
Two wrongs eventually made two rights. The universe is in balance.
Barkingsparrow
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Barkingsparrow »

I just finally got my brokerage money market account set up. I got the notice that my checks were mailed - and received them today. Almost threw them out as they came in some odd package I did not recognize and thought it was junk mail with all the warnings about "Important! Open Immediately!!, etc. Looks like Vanguard outsourced the checkbooks as instead of the nice big clean checks I got with the mutual fund checking, these are much smaller checks similar to my Chase checks.
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retiredjg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiredjg »

rossington wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:13 am I've never seen a "conversion" option that would avert a wash sale.
Only "Buy or Sell" or "Exchange Between Vanguard Funds" (in this option you are still selling and buying and it is a taxable event too).
Can you clarify?
Thanks.
This can only be done at Vanguard. If you hold your Vanguard funds somewhere else, you will have to sell and rebuy.
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starboi
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by starboi »

rossington wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:13 am
Duckie wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:42 pm
billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
There are two issues here:
If you choose to convert VEMAX to VWO that is not a sale, that is a conversion...
I've never seen a "conversion" option that would avert a wash sale.
Only "Buy or Sell" or "Exchange Between Vanguard Funds" (in this option you are still selling and buying and it is a taxable event too).
Can you clarify?
Thanks.
ETF conversions can only done by phone. VG used to have an online method but they shut it down.
dagsboro
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by dagsboro »

Barron's August 23, 2022 edition has an article by Lewis Braham titled New Vanguard Account Fees Will Increase Costs for Some of Its Most Loyal Customers. And I imagine that continuing declines in equity and bond fund values will push another group into the fee category because they now have less than one million dollars in Vanguard funds and that triggers the new fees. Vanguard may be wise to delay its October 1, 2022 launch of its new fee structure?
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:35 pm I just finally got my brokerage money market account set up. I got the notice that my checks were mailed - and received them today. Almost threw them out as they came in some odd package I did not recognize and thought it was junk mail with all the warnings about "Important! Open Immediately!!, etc. Looks like Vanguard outsourced the checkbooks as instead of the nice big clean checks I got with the mutual fund checking, these are much smaller checks similar to my Chase checks.
I'm sure Vanguard never had its own check printing and manufacturing operation. It was always outsourced, but what they did do was standardize the dimensions of the checks.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

starboi wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:29 pm
rossington wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:13 am
Duckie wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:42 pm
billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
There are two issues here:
If you choose to convert VEMAX to VWO that is not a sale, that is a conversion...
I've never seen a "conversion" option that would avert a wash sale.
Only "Buy or Sell" or "Exchange Between Vanguard Funds" (in this option you are still selling and buying and it is a taxable event too).
Can you clarify?
Thanks.
ETF conversions can only done by phone. VG used to have an online method but they shut it down.
The online method was only ever a limited duration trial which for certain users which was not scaled up. I never had the option despite checking repeatedly during the window when others did.
stan1
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by stan1 »

dagsboro wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:13 am Barron's August 23, 2022 edition has an article by Lewis Braham titled New Vanguard Account Fees Will Increase Costs for Some of Its Most Loyal Customers. And I imagine that continuing declines in equity and bond fund values will push another group into the fee category because they now have less than one million dollars in Vanguard funds and that triggers the new fees. Vanguard may be wise to delay its October 1, 2022 launch of its new fee structure?
These fees are easy to avoid for most people. Click on the upgrade link. I think some of these most loyal customers are not very IT savvy (having ignored or been confused by countless emails and pop up windows and I'm assuming US mail requests over the years asking them to do the upgrade to the brokerage platform). They may want someone to walk them through it on the phone, which it appears Vanguard has been doing.
dagsboro
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by dagsboro »

I'm under the strong impression that there are still many Vanguard customers who own mutual funds within the so-called legacy Vanguard mutual fund platform and that they, as the August 23, 2022 Barron's article infers, are indeed buy-and-hold investors, appreciate paper statements, are not aficionado's of the internet, own low cost index funds, are not active traders but have significant holdings at Vanguard's inhouse mutual funds. Further, part of this presumably large group is faced with 15 to more than 30 percent declines in their stocks and bonds during recent months that push them into a mandatory fee category after decades of low to no fees. I just finished reviewing the bogleheads forum and sense that: there is significant dissatisfaction with Vanguard's new business model by some of its customers; that there are too many glitches with the attempts to transition; that Vanguard management is driving away some of its traditional clients - and that Vanguard really doesn't want to drive those customers to competitors. What the article in Barron's does not say is that Vanguard has probably had huge infusions of new revenue during the past few years and can afford to cherry pick its customers and discard those which are less profitable. I hope that Vanguard does not permanently alienate a sizeable portion of one of its core constituencies.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Vanguard cannot stay static just because a subset of its customers may prefer that. The competitive landscape is very dynamic. Paper statements are on the way out. If any company decides they need to charge extra for unnecessary paper statements, I think that's now fully reasonable given the state of technology, and each client must then decide whether their desire for paper justifies the increased costs they will incur.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by dagsboro »

I have just read that a reporter is searching for Vanguard clients to ask them questions about their reactions to Vanguard's changing business model involving new fees. It will be interesting for me to learn if she (Erin from the Philadelphia Inquirer) can gauge from various sources roughly how large that subset of customers who you mention above really is. If they are largely very unprofitable, then Vanguard will likely usher them out the door. But if that customer subset is still profitable - but just not as profitable as Vanguard finds some others - then it may not want to lose those profits to competitors. We really won't know the outcome until January 2024 or even January 2025.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

I don't agree that Vanguard has a new business model involving fees. The announced fees are a last resort to force a decision toward a desired outcome for those who have not been previously persuaded via less drastic means. To an increasing degree, those clients exhibiting complete inaction are an expense rather than asset. They're forcing a deprecated platform to stay around, and they are demanding postal delivery of literally reams of paper over their investing lifetimes. That's a cost. Vanguard targets elimination of costs.

I will be interested to see the slant of the Philadelphia Inquirer piece upon publication. As usual, those who are most dissatisfied will be most motivated to go on record and air their grievances. That's to be expected.
BigJohn
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by BigJohn »

dagsboro wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:26 pm I have just read that a reporter is searching for Vanguard clients to ask them questions about their reactions to Vanguard's changing business model involving new fees. It will be interesting for me to learn if she (Erin from the Philadelphia Inquirer) can gauge from various sources roughly how large that subset of customers who you mention above really is. If they are largely very unprofitable, then Vanguard will likely usher them out the door. But if that customer subset is still profitable - but just not as profitable as Vanguard finds some others - then it may not want to lose those profits to competitors. We really won't know the outcome until January 2024 or even January 2025.
I think you need to factor into the equation that whatever you read is always going to be heavily skewed to those that are unhappy. Few people will take the time to write that all is well but it doesn't take much these days to create a lot of internet traffic on a complaints. I also think you're fooling yourself if you think there is any possibility for VG to alter it's course at this point. If you've read this discussion you know that the MF platform is on an very old and unsustainable software platform. VG has been asking people to transition for years and has now gotten to the point where more unpleasant actions are required to force people to either transition to the brokerage platform or leave. I honestly don't think they have a choice or care much either way as long as the huge vulnerability of an unsustainable software platform is resolved. Rather than wait until 24 or 25 to see if they change direction, I'd say look for an additional ratchet up in the pain level of staying on the MF platform in 23.
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rossington
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rossington »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:48 pmI don't agree that Vanguard has a new business model involving fees. The announced fees are a last resort to force a decision toward a desired outcome for those who have not been previously persuaded via less drastic means. To an increasing degree, those clients exhibiting complete inaction are an expense rather than asset. They're forcing a deprecated platform to stay around, and they are demanding postal delivery of literally reams of paper over their investing lifetimes. That's a cost. Vanguard targets elimination of costs.
This is absolutely correct. If Vanguard does not impose fees on those that refuse to upgrade or switch to e-delivery over paper then ALL of those costs would be shifted to everyone of us that transitioned to the brokerage platform and e-delivery. I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage. For those that move their assets elsewhere there is going to come a time when the same situation happens at Fidelity, Schwab, Blackrock etc.
Whether it's Microsoft making us upgrade Windows over time, or Apple with iOS, or Android, or any other software platform that we have used over the years any upgrade is inevitable and many times it costs more to upgrade (i.e.: Quickbooks as only one of many examples). Vanguard is charging us nothing and at the same time improving our investment functionality.
I will be interested to see the slant of the Philadelphia Inquirer piece upon publication. As usual, those who are most dissatisfied will be most motivated to go on record and air their grievances. That's to be expected.
The Inquirer has no significant competition in Philly thus allowing them to raise prices over the years. So it's take it or leave it for subscribers and retail purchasers.
Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy. I will add that calling the transition team has resulted in excellent service for me multiple times, they either picked up on one or two rings or called back within the designated times.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage.
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.

Vanguard is charging us nothing and at the same time improving our investment functionality.
Except many view it as a downgrade since the brokerage platform is missing useful features that existed in the fund platform.

I realize I stated these facts already - but it seems folks keep missing these points.
Last edited by SmileyFace on Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy. I will add that calling the transition team has resulted in excellent service for me multiple times, they either picked up on one or two rings or called back within the designated times.
If the transition was so easy - why did you have to call customer service multiple times?
surfinagin
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by surfinagin »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:43 am
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy. I will add that calling the transition team has resulted in excellent service for me multiple times, they either picked up on one or two rings or called back within the designated times.
If the transition was so easy - why did you have to call customer service multiple times?
I had to call -here's why:
I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then. They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. On 9/22, no forms received -called again and told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. Told don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to relative's acct and they won't have to pay the fee.
As of 10/03, almost a month later, the forms still not received. Ridiculous -this only required Vanguard to place two forms into an envelope then mail.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 am
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage.
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 am
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage.
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:11 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 am
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage.
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
Which subset of customers? And how many customers or fraction of Vanguard customers?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:15 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:11 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 am
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am I don't want to pay for those who don't comply after YEARS of notification from Vanguard about transitioning to brokerage.
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
Which subset of customers? And how many customers or fraction of Vanguard customers?
Unless we had a statement from VG we would have no idea if it was a subset or not. Anecdotal "I never got a notice" isn't a reliable indicator. I know I heard about it as early as 2013 but whether there was a general notice or not, we probably do not know. Nor does it matter.
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:15 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:11 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 am
Except not all Vanguard customers got years of notification. Many didn't know until they got a letter in the mail recently.
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
Which subset of customers? And how many customers or fraction of Vanguard customers?
Unless we had a statement from VG we would have no idea if it was a subset or not. Anecdotal "I never got a notice" isn't a reliable indicator. I know I heard about it as early as 2013 but whether there was a general notice or not, we probably do not know. Nor does it matter.
Sounds like you are assuming lots of mail was lost over the years. I find that hard to believe.
I
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:30 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:15 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:11 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:03 am
Are you saying that people weren't notified that they needed to switch to the brokerage platform, or that they weren't notified about the additional fees that would be imposed if they didn't switch? Because the former notifications have been going out for years, but the latter was only recently.
Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
Which subset of customers? And how many customers or fraction of Vanguard customers?
Unless we had a statement from VG we would have no idea if it was a subset or not. Anecdotal "I never got a notice" isn't a reliable indicator. I know I heard about it as early as 2013 but whether there was a general notice or not, we probably do not know. Nor does it matter.
Sounds like you are assuming lots of mail was lost over the years. I find that hard to believe.
I
I'm not assuming anything. I'm drawing on my decades of experience that anecdotes are largely not useful.
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:32 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:30 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 am
rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:15 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:11 am

Neither is true. They were only notifying a subset of customers. The underlined statement is false for many customers.
Which subset of customers? And how many customers or fraction of Vanguard customers?
Unless we had a statement from VG we would have no idea if it was a subset or not. Anecdotal "I never got a notice" isn't a reliable indicator. I know I heard about it as early as 2013 but whether there was a general notice or not, we probably do not know. Nor does it matter.
Sounds like you are assuming lots of mail was lost over the years. I find that hard to believe.
I
I'm not assuming anything. I'm drawing on my decades of experience that anecdotes are largely not useful.

Which part of "we have no idea" did you not comprehend?
I comprehend your statement - I just don’t agree with it. Sounds like some here are using annectodal information to make the claim everyone was notified for years so sounds like the problem with using annectdotes is the statement I was disputing made by Vanguard diehards. I know two Vanguard customers personally that I know for a fact where never notified until weeks ago (unless the ONLY letters that were ever lost in the mail from Vanguard were these supposed years worth of notifications which I find difficult to believe). And several others have reported such here over the last few weeks which I will not dispute.
Personal experience and knowledge is NOT an annectdote. The statement made whereby the assumption of one person'@ experience must be true for all was the annectdote. I was actually disputing the annecdotal conclusive statement. Ironic.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable but in the end it doesn't matter. Whining about the past will get one nowhere or worse.

People have specific alternatives going forward. This thread should really be locked inasmuch as no additional valuable information seems to be forthcoming - perhaps because it has been exhausted.
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retiredjg
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retiredjg »

I would suggest that the tread still has viability, but that this particular topic of conversation is exhausted.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:46 am Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable but in the end it doesn't matter. Whining about the past will get one nowhere or worse.

People have specific alternatives going forward. This thread should really be locked inasmuch as no additional valuable information seems to be forthcoming - perhaps because it has been exhausted.
Okay. I just don't like misinformation so when I see it I can't help but feel compelled to correct it.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

retiredjg wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:53 am I would suggest that the tread still has viability, but that this particular topic of conversation is exhausted.
Then people should focus on "What do I do now?" Options seem to be mostly limited to stay & pay, convert or move -- all of which are perfectly good options depending on one's circumstances.

To me, the fee is a bit of a red herring for many since it isn't a huge amount and is avoidable for many. The other problems related in other threads (e.g. phone support, web robustness and usability, potential security weaknesses etc.) seem much more important.
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rkhusky
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:59 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:46 am Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable but in the end it doesn't matter. Whining about the past will get one nowhere or worse.

People have specific alternatives going forward. This thread should really be locked inasmuch as no additional valuable information seems to be forthcoming - perhaps because it has been exhausted.
Okay. I just don't like misinformation so when I see it I can't help but feel compelled to correct it.
You weren't correcting any misinformation. The statement that Vanguard has been sending out messages for years, telling people to move to the brokerage accounts and that there would be consequences for not doing so, is objectively true. Just because a few people missed the notices or weren't sent the notices, does not change the fact that Vanguard was sending out notices. I saw the warnings whenever I logged into my account, plus received email notices. I cannot comment on people that do not have an online account and do not have email.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

rkhusky wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:00 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:59 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:46 am Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable but in the end it doesn't matter. Whining about the past will get one nowhere or worse.

People have specific alternatives going forward. This thread should really be locked inasmuch as no additional valuable information seems to be forthcoming - perhaps because it has been exhausted.
Okay. I just don't like misinformation so when I see it I can't help but feel compelled to correct it.
You weren't correcting any misinformation. The statement that Vanguard has been sending out messages for years, telling people to move to the brokerage accounts and that there would be consequences for not doing so, is objectively true. Just because a few people missed the notices or weren't sent the notices, does not change the fact that Vanguard was sending out notices. I saw the warnings whenever I logged into my account, plus received email notices. I cannot comment on people that do not have an online account and do not have email.
This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. Many of these folks haven't been notified. That's all I am saying. That's the misplaced defense of Vanguard and misinformation.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well in the statements made I was originally quoting and youd defending. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
Last edited by SmileyFace on Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. That's all I am saying.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
So what is your plan?

I have converted some accounts and will likely convert the remaining ones in the next few months even though I don't get assessed any fees and could stay on the MF platform until the end. For taxable accounts it will simplify my tax reporting a smidge but that is just a bonus.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:39 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. That's all I am saying.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
So what is your plan?
For my own accounts - I downgraded to the brokerage platform then upgraded to a better brokerage a while ago - before these fees where even announced.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:39 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. That's all I am saying.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
So what is your plan?
For my own accounts - I downgraded to the brokerage platform then upgraded to a better brokerage a while ago - before these fees where even announced.
Sounds like you're all set then.
Stay hydrated; don't sweat the small stuff
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SmileyFace
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:42 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:39 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. That's all I am saying.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
So what is your plan?
For my own accounts - I downgraded to the brokerage platform then upgraded to a better brokerage a while ago - before these fees where even announced.
Sounds like you're all set then.
Yup - and I answered this question several times in these threads. I am just trying to help others with their decisions at this point. If you are trying to decide what to do in light of new fees being levied upon you and are planning to move to a "brokerage" account you might as well look at all your brokerage account options both inside and outside Vanguard. You might find other options might provide better tools and better service while allowing you to hold all the same or similar investments.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:04 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:42 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 am
jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:39 am
SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am This generally attitude of "stop complaining- you have been getting notified for years" is the issue in these threads as many have not. That's all I am saying.
I thought the use of the word "Comply" interesting as well. Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
So what is your plan?
For my own accounts - I downgraded to the brokerage platform then upgraded to a better brokerage a while ago - before these fees where even announced.
Sounds like you're all set then.
Yup - and I answered this question several times in these threads. I am just trying to help others with their decisions at this point. If you are trying to decide what to do in light of new fees being levied upon you and are planning to move to a "brokerage" account you might as well look at all your brokerage account options both inside and outside Vanguard. You might find other options might provide better tools and better service while allowing you to hold all the same or similar investments.
Thanks. I have everything at Vanguard and so far it works fine for me. But my needs are simple and the fees don't affect me. Most months I go in, look to make sure it is all there and I have no unrealized losses and then log out.

If I ever reach a point where I think I need to move I'd probably look at Schwab and Fidelity since they have offices close enough if I ever needed one and I've used them in the distant past with few issues.
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rkhusky
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

SmileyFace wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:37 am Note that if you have over $1M you don't need to "Comply" - what does that tell you about this new Vanguard?
It tells me that those with $1M+ are already paying enough in fees to compensate for the costs of the mutual fund platform and/or paper statements. Which is consistent with Vanguard’s fee methodology.
solarcub
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by solarcub »

rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am Vanguard is charging us nothing and at the same time improving our investment functionality.
Nothing about the brokerage account is an improvement for me. Now I have to have settlement funds I don't want, they won't do the RMD the way they used to, and I can't re-direct dividends from one fund to another. The added bonus, I guess, is that I can buy a bunch individual stocks, which I have never wanted to do, or buy non-Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs, which I have never wanted to do.
Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy.
No, it's really not easy for a lot of people. Plenty of threads on this, where the website conversion fails, doesn't say why, and people have to call multiple times for help.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

solarcub wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:00 pm
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am Vanguard is charging us nothing and at the same time improving our investment functionality.
Nothing about the brokerage account is an improvement for me. Now I have to have settlement funds I don't want, they won't do the RMD the way they used to, and I can't re-direct dividends from one fund to another. The added bonus, I guess, is that I can buy a bunch individual stocks, which I have never wanted to do, or buy non-Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs, which I have never wanted to do.
Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy.
No, it's really not easy for a lot of people. Plenty of threads on this, where the website conversion fails, doesn't say why, and people have to call multiple times for help.
so what's your plan?
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solarcub
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by solarcub »

jebmke wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:01 pm
solarcub wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:00 pm
rossington wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:40 am Vanguard is charging us nothing and at the same time improving our investment functionality.
Nothing about the brokerage account is an improvement for me. Now I have to have settlement funds I don't want, they won't do the RMD the way they used to, and I can't re-direct dividends from one fund to another. The added bonus, I guess, is that I can buy a bunch individual stocks, which I have never wanted to do, or buy non-Vanguard mutual funds and ETFs, which I have never wanted to do.
Vanguard has given us a better option at no cost and upgrading to the brokerage is easy... yes easy.
No, it's really not easy for a lot of people. Plenty of threads on this, where the website conversion fails, doesn't say why, and people have to call multiple times for help.
so what's your plan?
I already converted, after several poorly explained failures on the website, a call to customer service, a waiting period, another poorly explained failure on the website, another call, and another waiting period. Then, it finally worked.

I am also in the group of people who did not get notified for a long, long time after this all started. I kept seeing discussions about this on bogleheads and wondering why Vanguard never asked me to convert. Finally they did.
politely
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by politely »

exodusNH wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:51 am They cannot transition you without your explicit consent and action. Switching to a brokerage account changes your securities from directly held to street name. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

If they could have just done it automatically, they would have.
exodusNH, the switch may be factually true (as noted at the bottom of each Vanguard site page), but no consent for the switch is requested (as far as I could tell) during the transition to change nominee, so is probably not the reason.

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:54 pm This may be common knowledge but I haven't seen any mention of it:

See page 4: https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/vbafqm.pdf

Account service fee

$20 annual fee for each mutual fund
account.
Refer to the applicable
Vanguard fund prospectus or
visit vanguard.com to learn about
exclusions that may apply.

$20 annual fee for each brokerage account. Refer to the
Vanguard Brokerage commission and fee schedules at
vanguard.com/commissions to learn about exclusions that
may apply.

Does anyone know what the truth is?

Now, I'm confused. The above referenced document says $20 per mutual fund account, but the website says per mutual fund (see link below). Do we think the difference is because the document is old (April 2022) or because they both mean the same thing? So if I hold 6 different mutual funds, am I going to get charged $20 because it's all one account or is it $120 because each mutual fund is a separate account? The $20 is totally fair (and equalizes both brokerage and MF platform), but $120 doesn't make sense since it doesn't cost 6x as much to send out the one quarterly statement - especially when they are going to maintain the MF system anyway. Btw, that's where I think the arguments about Vanguard being allowed not to have to maintain two systems falls apart - they are not getting rid of the MF platform, and people with over $1mm don't have to pay the fees regardless of the number of mutual funds.

"Mutual fund-only accounts:
$20 for each Vanguard mutual fund. We'll waive the fee if you have at least $1 million in qualifying Vanguard assets. Refer to the applicable fund prospectus for other exclusions that may apply."

https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees
criticalmass
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by criticalmass »

Did anyone receive the new fee in September?

As of Monday October 3, I do not see any fees on my mutual fund account to date.
I also did not receive a notice warning a fee is coming---the only news I have heard of it has been via this website.

But September may only be the last date for "free" mutual accounts, so the fee could still appear by year end, I suppose. We'll see. They will need to warn me in advance in writing if they wish to charge a fee.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rossington »

politely wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:13 pm
exodusNH wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:51 am They cannot transition you without your explicit consent and action. Switching to a brokerage account changes your securities from directly held to street name. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

If they could have just done it automatically, they would have.
exodusNH, the switch may be factually true (as noted at the bottom of each Vanguard site page), but no consent for the switch is requested (as far as I could tell) during the transition to change nominee, so is probably not the reason.
Your consent is required at the end of the transition process online or if you call a rep.

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:54 pm This may be common knowledge but I haven't seen any mention of it:

See page 4: https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/vbafqm.pdf

Account service fee

$20 annual fee for each mutual fund
account.
Refer to the applicable
Vanguard fund prospectus or
visit vanguard.com to learn about
exclusions that may apply.

$20 annual fee for each brokerage account. Refer to the
Vanguard Brokerage commission and fee schedules at
vanguard.com/commissions to learn about exclusions that
may apply.

Does anyone know what the truth is?
Now, I'm confused. The above referenced document says $20 per mutual fund account, but the website says per mutual fund (see link below). Do we think the difference is because the document is old (April 2022) or because they both mean the same thing? So if I hold 6 different mutual funds, am I going to get charged $20 because it's all one account or is it $120 because each mutual fund is a separate account? The $20 is totally fair (and equalizes both brokerage and MF platform), but $120 doesn't make sense since it doesn't cost 6x as much to send out the one quarterly statement - especially when they are going to maintain the MF system anyway.

$20/each mutual fund, so $120 is correct.
Btw, that's where I think the arguments about Vanguard being allowed not to have to maintain two systems falls apart - they are not getting rid of the MF platform, and people with over $1mm don't have to pay the fees regardless of the number of mutual funds.


"Mutual fund-only accounts:
$20 for each Vanguard mutual fund. We'll waive the fee if you have at least $1 million in qualifying Vanguard assets. Refer to the applicable fund prospectus for other exclusions that may apply."

https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees
I think that if the desired percentage of their clients had 1M or more in assets then they would not have imposed the fee structure.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
rossington
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rossington »

criticalmass wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:07 am Did anyone receive the new fee in September?

As of Monday October 3, I do not see any fees on my mutual fund account to date.
I also did not receive a notice warning a fee is coming---the only news I have heard of it has been via this website.

But September may only be the last date for "free" mutual accounts, so the fee could still appear by year end, I suppose. We'll see. They will need to warn me in advance in writing if they wish to charge a fee.
I was told by mid October it will start. Can't remember the date though, sorry. Call them!
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
criticalmass
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by criticalmass »

rossington wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:04 am
criticalmass wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:07 am Did anyone receive the new fee in September?

As of Monday October 3, I do not see any fees on my mutual fund account to date.
I also did not receive a notice warning a fee is coming---the only news I have heard of it has been via this website.

But September may only be the last date for "free" mutual accounts, so the fee could still appear by year end, I suppose. We'll see. They will need to warn me in advance in writing if they wish to charge a fee.
I was told by mid October it will start. Can't remember the date though, sorry. Call them!
I’ve had to call them and sit on hold too many hours in the last year already. I don’t know why i would call them now, other then ask if other customers “owners” are receiving a fee that Vanguard has not indicated will apply to my accounts.
I am interested in others’ experiences. Thank you
rossington
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rossington »

criticalmass wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:01 am
rossington wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:04 am
criticalmass wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:07 am Did anyone receive the new fee in September?

As of Monday October 3, I do not see any fees on my mutual fund account to date.
I also did not receive a notice warning a fee is coming---the only news I have heard of it has been via this website.

But September may only be the last date for "free" mutual accounts, so the fee could still appear by year end, I suppose. We'll see. They will need to warn me in advance in writing if they wish to charge a fee.
I was told by mid October it will start. Can't remember the date though, sorry. Call them!
I’ve had to call them and sit on hold too many hours in the last year already. I don’t know why i would call them now, other then ask if other customers “owners” are receiving a fee that Vanguard has not indicated will apply to my accounts.
I am interested in others’ experiences. Thank you
Use the "Call Back" option during the on hold loop when calling (ask for the Transition Team)...they will call you within the designated time frame.
If your accounts have the "Transition This Account" button at the top right of the account header it applies.
If you don't have this notification then take some screenshots as proof in case you get charged if you are not going to pursue it any further.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
exodusNH
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

politely wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:13 pm
exodusNH wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:51 am They cannot transition you without your explicit consent and action. Switching to a brokerage account changes your securities from directly held to street name. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

If they could have just done it automatically, they would have.
exodusNH, the switch may be factually true (as noted at the bottom of each Vanguard site page), but no consent for the switch is requested (as far as I could tell) during the transition to change nominee, so is probably not the reason.

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:54 pm This may be common knowledge but I haven't seen any mention of it:

See page 4: https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/vbafqm.pdf

Account service fee

$20 annual fee for each mutual fund
account.
Refer to the applicable
Vanguard fund prospectus or
visit vanguard.com to learn about
exclusions that may apply.

$20 annual fee for each brokerage account. Refer to the
Vanguard Brokerage commission and fee schedules at
vanguard.com/commissions to learn about exclusions that
may apply.

Does anyone know what the truth is?

Now, I'm confused. The above referenced document says $20 per mutual fund account, but the website says per mutual fund (see link below). Do we think the difference is because the document is old (April 2022) or because they both mean the same thing? So if I hold 6 different mutual funds, am I going to get charged $20 because it's all one account or is it $120 because each mutual fund is a separate account? The $20 is totally fair (and equalizes both brokerage and MF platform), but $120 doesn't make sense since it doesn't cost 6x as much to send out the one quarterly statement - especially when they are going to maintain the MF system anyway. Btw, that's where I think the arguments about Vanguard being allowed not to have to maintain two systems falls apart - they are not getting rid of the MF platform, and people with over $1mm don't have to pay the fees regardless of the number of mutual funds.

"Mutual fund-only accounts:
$20 for each Vanguard mutual fund. We'll waive the fee if you have at least $1 million in qualifying Vanguard assets. Refer to the applicable fund prospectus for other exclusions that may apply."

https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees
There are two meanings of "account".

On the legacy platform, which can only hold mutual funds, each mutual fund in every type of holding (Roth IRA, IRA, taxable) is considered a separate account. E.g., if you have VTSAX and VBTLX in an IRA, a Roth IRA, and a taxable account, you have 6 accounts.

On the brokerage platform, the same setup would be 3 accounts.

This is why on the legacy platform, one could easily be paying over $100 per year.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jeffyscott »

criticalmass wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:07 am Did anyone receive the new fee in September?

As of Monday October 3, I do not see any fees on my mutual fund account to date.
I also did not receive a notice warning a fee is coming---the only news I have heard of it has been via this website.

But September may only be the last date for "free" mutual accounts, so the fee could still appear by year end, I suppose. We'll see. They will need to warn me in advance in writing if they wish to charge a fee.
Per message from Vanguard:
September 30: Client deadline to act to avoid this fee.
October 22 - 26: Clients who did not act will be assessed the fee.

viewtopic.php?p=6816037#p6816037

I wonder if they'll take it on the way out for anyone who moves now?
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