Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

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linberl
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Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by linberl »

So Vanguard made me switch over after telling me it would cost me $120/yr in fees to stay with the MF platform. My TOD all switched as did my beneficiaries but the method of creating a POA in case of incapacity is no longer available online (it was in the MF platform). it now appears I have to get a form notarized with 2 witnesses to do this??? Any way around this? First of all it's $25 for a notary (which pisses me off since transferring was forced by Vanguard) and also I don't want to sit in a bank and do this (I am at high risk for Covid). Why are they making this so difficult on the brokerage side? Grrrrrr.....
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

linberl wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:35 pm So Vanguard made me switch over after telling me it would cost me $120/yr in fees to stay with the MF platform. My TOD all switched as did my beneficiaries but the method of creating a POA in case of incapacity is no longer available online (it was in the MF platform). it now appears I have to get a form notarized with 2 witnesses to do this??? Any way around this? First of all it's $25 for a notary (which pisses me off since transferring was forced by Vanguard) and also I don't want to sit in a bank and do this (I am at high risk for Covid). Why are they making this so difficult on the brokerage side? Grrrrrr.....
i was told the same thing but it was in regards to full agent authorization.

not sure why the forms don't migrate as easily as it did to migrate from MF platform to brokerage.

have you considered a mobile notary service? that might be better to be in front of one person than multiple people at a bank. look up mobile notary services in your area if available. might cost even more, but if covid is primary concern, it's some form of insurance to reduce risk (possibly).
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cas
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by cas »

Is it possible that you didn't have "full" agent authorization before (when you remember implementing it all online)?

Did you get to the Vanguard web page for "add or remove access to your account" that lists the 5 levels of agent authorization?

Recent reports (bogleheads discussion within the last few days) are that "information only" agent authorization and "limited" agent authorization can be added entirely online.

It is true that "Full" agent authorization is an official Pennsylvania durable POA document, with some Vanguard-specific wording, and Pennsylvania law requires the "2 witnesses and a notary" for all those sorts of estate planning documents.

I don't doubt that it is possible in some state somewhere, but notary fees are set by state law, and $25 sounds high. For example, none of the states that are visible in the 2022 Notary Fees by State list are showing anything as high as $25. (But the fees for all states aren't immediately visible, so maybe your state is an outlier.)
increment
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by increment »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:04 pm not sure why the forms don't migrate as easily as it did to migrate from MF platform to brokerage.
To move from MF to brokerage, you have to agree to various legal terms. On the agent authorization form (the Full Authorization, at least), your agent has to agree to similar terms. Perhaps Vanguard doesn't let you have your agent agree to those terms when you log in to your own account.
nalor511
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by nalor511 »

You can do the partial agent (trading authority) online. Do that. Then do the form for full POA if you care, and don't if you don't. Or move your account to another broker that lets you do full POA online (Fidelity). Schwab doesn't even let you do partial agent online (require form for anything above view). Those are your options.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by ResearchMed »

Try to use an online Notary.

A few times, we've used those to get some forms notarized for TIAA, and it was very simple. And it cost the same $25, but "from the comfort of home". :happy

[The form to remove money from a 403b requires that the spouse gives consent with a signature that must be notarized.]

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linberl
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by linberl »

I didn't know online notaries were a thing, lol. However, apparently you need to be able to do video-conferencing and I have a M! Mac Mini and a 4k monitor and no camera. Never used the one in my old iMac so didn't bother with one with this upgrade. Retired- no WFH.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by ResearchMed »

linberl wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:18 pm I didn't know online notaries were a thing, lol. However, apparently you need to be able to do video-conferencing and I have a M! Mac Mini and a 4k monitor and no camera. Never used the one in my old iMac so didn't bother with one with this upgrade. Retired- no WFH.

Right... they need to "see you", etc.

Do you have an iPhone?
I think there are ways to do online notarization with a mobile device (with camera, etc.).

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linberl
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by linberl »

No iPhone but I might be able to borrow one. It also says you need 2 witnesses and they can't be the notary or the person named in the POA. Could they make this any more effing difficult????? And apparently Vanguard won't accept a duly notarized out of state POA (not PA) prepared POA, so they would have to pay an attorney to make Vanguard accept the POA in case of my incapacity. I'm off to look into other options than Vanguard, which is too bad as I've been with them for decades.
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by RetiredAL »

linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:54 am No iPhone but I might be able to borrow one. It also says you need 2 witnesses and they can't be the notary or the person named in the POA. Could they make this any more effing difficult????? And apparently Vanguard won't accept a duly notarized out of state POA (not PA) prepared POA, so they would have to pay an attorney to make Vanguard accept the POA in case of my incapacity. I'm off to look into other options than Vanguard, which is too bad as I've been with them for decades.
Schwab is very POA friendly.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by ResearchMed »

linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:54 am No iPhone but I might be able to borrow one. It also says you need 2 witnesses and they can't be the notary or the person named in the POA. Could they make this any more effing difficult????? And apparently Vanguard won't accept a duly notarized out of state POA (not PA) prepared POA, so they would have to pay an attorney to make Vanguard accept the POA in case of my incapacity. I'm off to look into other options than Vanguard, which is too bad as I've been with them for decades.

I thought Vanguard finally acknowledged that law (circa 2014 or 2015) that requires [paraphrasing very approximately] any company doing business in PA to accept any legally valid PoA doc regardless of whether it uses a different form or was executed in another state.

Way back, Vanguard actually said they didn't care and wouldn't accept it. (There is considerably discussion about this elsewhere here on BH.)
Then I heard they *would* accept them, but it probably requires a carrot, a stick, a push, and a shove...

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linberl
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by linberl »

Their website says it has to be their own form and I messaged with them and they said the same. I talked to a lawyer friend who says an attorney can make them accept it but it will probably require a couple letters so some $ for the lawyer.
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by exodusNH »

linberl wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:35 pm So Vanguard made me switch over after telling me it would cost me $120/yr in fees to stay with the MF platform. My TOD all switched as did my beneficiaries but the method of creating a POA in case of incapacity is no longer available online (it was in the MF platform). it now appears I have to get a form notarized with 2 witnesses to do this??? Any way around this? First of all it's $25 for a notary (which pisses me off since transferring was forced by Vanguard) and also I don't want to sit in a bank and do this (I am at high risk for Covid). Why are they making this so difficult on the brokerage side? Grrrrrr.....
Your insurance agent might be a notary. Also, at work, our office manager is a notary.
nalor511
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by nalor511 »

RetiredAL wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:56 am
linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:54 am No iPhone but I might be able to borrow one. It also says you need 2 witnesses and they can't be the notary or the person named in the POA. Could they make this any more effing difficult????? And apparently Vanguard won't accept a duly notarized out of state POA (not PA) prepared POA, so they would have to pay an attorney to make Vanguard accept the POA in case of my incapacity. I'm off to look into other options than Vanguard, which is too bad as I've been with them for decades.
Schwab is very POA friendly.
Schwab requires a physical form and notary (or office visit)
Topic Author
linberl
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by linberl »

Do Schwab and Fidelity both require their own POA forms or do they accept valid forms from another state? I already have a Ca. POA my attorney did as part of my estate planning.
cas
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by cas »

I doubt any of the information below will make the OP any happier.

And I strongly suspect that if an account owner wants their agent to have full POA type powers, then any actual agent would find it considerably less painful to gain full POA type powers at Vanguard via the "full agent authorization" set up ahead of time rather than have to deal with the "agent for an incapacitated person" paperwork after the fact.

However, for anyone who would like to research this, there is a lot of information in the Allow others access to view or transact on your accounts area on the Vanguard website.

One of the first pages shows that there are 5 levels of agent authorization:

What type of account access would you like to grant or receive?
  • Information only.
  • Limited authority.
  • Full authority.
  • Agent certification for incapacitated person.
  • Court appointed access.
There is "Compare Levels of Access" link on that same page that takes you to a chart showing what each of the levels can and can not do.

Other people, in recent boglehead's posts, have said the first 2 levels can be established entirely online.

If you click on Limited Agent Authority, it says, among other things:
These are some of the tasks an agent with limited authorization can perform:
  • Buy, sell, and exchange your Vanguard mutual funds and trade stocks, bonds, and other securities.
  • Engage in margin or options trading if established on the accounts.
  • Transfer or invest assets between Vanguard accounts owned solely by you, including your revocable trust if you're the sole trustee.
  • Request that distributions from your accounts be payable to you and sent to your address or bank account of record.
  • Obtain information about your mutual fund and brokerage accounts, including historical account information.

If you click "Full Authority" it describes the "2 witnesses and a notary"/Pennsylvania POA via Vanguard's own forms set-up, and describes how "full" agent authorization gives the agent pretty much total control over the account (as opposed to the transact authority given in the "limited" agent authorization).

Addressing some subtlety in the "Does Vanguard accept a general durable POA document" issue, if you click on "Agent certification for incapacitated person"
Agent certification for incapacitated person

As an agent, you'll be given access to all eligible Vanguard accounts for the incapacitated person. For Vanguard, the term “incapacity” is defined as the inability, due to mental or physical illness/disability, of an account owner to appoint an agent by signing our Agent Authorization form.

Important: At the end of this process, you'll need to provide us with this documentation.
  • A complete copy of a valid durable financial power of attorney authorizing the agent(s) to act on the account owner’s behalf.
  • A physician’s certification of the account owner’s incapacity on the Vanguard Report of Incapacity form.
Do you want to continue?
Once upon a time I think I have read on some boglehead's thread somewhere that the whole "use general durable POA for incapacitated person" approach was NOT a one-and-done type of thing (at the time that post was written). I have zero idea what Vanguard's current policy is on how lasting the above set-up is. I doubt it is something anyone would want as their primary approach.
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by RetiredAL »

linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:36 pm Do Schwab and Fidelity both require their own POA forms or do they accept valid forms from another state? I already have a Ca. POA my attorney did as part of my estate planning.
Schwab will accept an external POA, even when it's submitted by the POA Agent.

Schwab has two POA forms. The common one is their own POA form that can be filled out on-line. This is what you find quickly when searching for their POA form. The other form, which is somewhat harder to find, is for processing a pre-existing POA, which flows through their legal team.

When my Dad was not doing well, Schwab said they would open an account and transfer his IRA to them, all based on his existing POA naming me his agent. Dad improved to the point that I could take him to the local office to sign all the paperwork himself, so we did only the simple Schwab form.

One point to note: Schwab's simple form is Not-Durable and they expect the POA agent to notify them of in-capacity. If the external POA is Durable, they accept that, even when filed after in-capacity.

That is in contrast to Fidelity whose standard form is considered Durable. However Fidelity requires both witnesses + Notary signatures unless done in a Fidelity Office with all parties present, where they will Notarize it and proceed.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by ResearchMed »

RetiredAL wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:37 pm
linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:36 pm Do Schwab and Fidelity both require their own POA forms or do they accept valid forms from another state? I already have a Ca. POA my attorney did as part of my estate planning.
Schwab will accept an external POA, even when it's submitted by the POA Agent.

Schwab has two POA forms. The common one is their own POA form that can be filled out on-line. This is what you find quickly when searching for their POA form. The other form, which is somewhat harder to find, is for processing a pre-existing POA, which flows through their legal team.

When my Dad was not doing well, Schwab said they would open an account and transfer his IRA to them, all based on his existing POA naming me his agent. Dad improved to the point that I could take him to the local office to sign all the paperwork himself, so we did only the simple Schwab form.

One point to note: Schwab's simple form is Not-Durable and they expect the POA agent to notify them of in-capacity. If the external POA is Durable, they accept that, even when filed after in-capacity.

That is in contrast to Fidelity whose standard form is considered Durable. However Fidelity requires both witnesses + Notary signatures unless done in a Fidelity Office with all parties present, where they will Notarize it and proceed.

Schwab was incredibly easy to work with, when we moved very elderly MIL near us. She was in her mid-90s, fully alert, but she told DH that she didn't want to bother with any of the finances anymore, not at all. She went to a CCRC-type facility near us, starting in Assisted Living, then a stay in Rehab, and then back in Assisted, for several years, until a short time in Skilled Nursing at the very end.

DH brought her already completed DPOA form to Schwab, and set up her accounts, including a trust account. They never met MIL, and I'm pretty sure they never spoke to her. (Whether they ever called the facility to see if she really lived there/existed/etc., I have no idea...)

DH had found several very old, tattered stock certificates of hers, and we brought those to Schwab, and asked them to "take care of it" and have the holdings transfered to her electronic account at Schwab.
And they did.

It couldn't have been easier.

RM
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RetiredAL
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Re: Brokerage Power of Attorney after MF>Brokerage switch

Post by RetiredAL »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:47 pm
RetiredAL wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:37 pm
linberl wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:36 pm Do Schwab and Fidelity both require their own POA forms or do they accept valid forms from another state? I already have a Ca. POA my attorney did as part of my estate planning.
Schwab will accept an external POA, even when it's submitted by the POA Agent.

Schwab has two POA forms. The common one is their own POA form that can be filled out on-line. This is what you find quickly when searching for their POA form. The other form, which is somewhat harder to find, is for processing a pre-existing POA, which flows through their legal team.

When my Dad was not doing well, Schwab said they would open an account and transfer his IRA to them, all based on his existing POA naming me his agent. Dad improved to the point that I could take him to the local office to sign all the paperwork himself, so we did only the simple Schwab form.

One point to note: Schwab's simple form is Not-Durable and they expect the POA agent to notify them of in-capacity. If the external POA is Durable, they accept that, even when filed after in-capacity.

That is in contrast to Fidelity whose standard form is considered Durable. However Fidelity requires both witnesses + Notary signatures unless done in a Fidelity Office with all parties present, where they will Notarize it and proceed.

Schwab was incredibly easy to work with, when we moved very elderly MIL near us. She was in her mid-90s, fully alert, but she told DH that she didn't want to bother with any of the finances anymore, not at all. She went to a CCRC-type facility near us, starting in Assisted Living, then a stay in Rehab, and then back in Assisted, for several years, until a short time in Skilled Nursing at the very end.

DH brought her already completed DPOA form to Schwab, and set up her accounts, including a trust account. They never met MIL, and I'm pretty sure they never spoke to her. (Whether they ever called the facility to see if she really lived there/existed/etc., I have no idea...)

DH had found several very old, tattered stock certificates of hers, and we brought those to Schwab, and asked them to "take care of it" and have the holdings transfered to her electronic account at Schwab.
And they did.

It couldn't have been easier.

RM
My overall experience with Schwab mirrors RM's comments.

Dad has long had 2 trust accounts there and changing me to Trustee was simple. His IRAs got moved to Schwab due to the previous' missing the Scheduled RMD and being a PIA with regards to POA acceptance. There is great value in being able to sit down with them in a local office to get paperwork handled.

DW and I also have long standing (late 90's) Roth accounts and a regular account with Schwab. Due to my 401K being at Fidelity, my IRAs reside there.

I consider both Schwab and Fidelity fine to deal with and both have local offices within 5 miles to me.

DW is non-financial by her choice so I do everything. We have cross-filed POA's to each other. At some point DS will have to stand-in, as I have done for my Dad.
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