[Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

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Hebell
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[Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Hebell »

[Moved into a new thread from: Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN..Any advice? --admin LadyGeek]

Can we revive this for a retired couple that makes friends easily but doesn't know anybody in Minnesota or Wisconsin? We love cold weather.
Very active cyclists, would certainly join a recumbent trike club. Have our own canoe, which we would probably keep at a local boat club. Would join local meetup groups for board games, or dinner gatherings. Want close proximity to good restaurants, libraries, parks, community centers, experimental theater, and wherever people hang out. Don't care about sports clubs, job hunting or brew pubs. Love swimming, would love to be near an aquatics center. Snowmobiling or dog sledding outings, we love them both. We need to make the best of our sixties but know that we also need to reduce our fall risks and have access to good healthcare.

Minneapolis / St Paul or Madison?
nordsteve
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by nordsteve »

A couple pointers for you in the Twin Cities:

https://biketcbc.org/ is the biggest local bike club.

Many cities have canoe rack rental, where you can store your canoe near a lake/pond, rather than having to haul it there. For example, Minneapolis have over 500: https://www.minneapolisparks.org/rental ... k_rentals/

For "close proximity to good restaurants, libraries, community centers, experimental theater, and wherever people hang out", I would recommend the Downtown East, North Loop, or St. Anthony East neighborhoods.

Snowmobiling and dogsledding would be central/northern MN activities -- for snowmobiling something like this: https://www.craguns.com/things-to-do/wi ... le-center/. Dogsledding tends to be in the northeast -- check out this query https://www.bing.com/search?q=dogsleddi ... A1&PC=U531
InvisibleAerobar
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by InvisibleAerobar »

Madison would meet almost all of your requirements except for one issue.

While it would appear advantageous to live next to the teaching hospital of the state’s flagship university, there are a few issues with UW Health. One is rather high facility charges at UW Health, and the other is that UW Health as treated its nursing staff quite shabbily and had issues with staffing.

My wife and I have not been personally affected, other than being irritated at the damn facility charges.

As for theater, not sure if it qualifies as “experimental”, but American Player Theater, a “classic” theater, is ~50 minutes away in Spring Green. Right nearby is Frank Lloyd Wright’s Taliesin (literally two miles or so down the road from the Theater).

The cycling infrastructure (in particular the paved path system) is expansive, and the drivers are probably as cycling friendly as one could find (b/c so many cycle themselves). The loop route around Lake Monona is just magical. Sugar River or the lakes for canoeing.

If we have the opportunity, we’ll definitely move back.

Almost forgot, only other minor quibble is the lack of Spanish cuisine. We had to drive to Milwaukee to get paella. At least one restaurant cooks fancier Italian fare such as bronzino. Now that we are in MKE, i’d much rather have the extensive cycling infrastructure in lieu of access to restaurants.

That said, the only other place we’d consider in the Midwest are Ann Arbor and MSP (also extensive cycling network and on-water recreation, but i have never experienced them myself).
Last edited by InvisibleAerobar on Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Foley
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Peter Foley »

I live in the Twin Cities and my daughter lives in Madison. I have biked in both. My impression is the Twin Cities has more extensive bike paths. There are paths along the rivers, around many lakes, trails to suburbs (the Gateway Trail for example) and much more.

Note: there are areas of the Twin Cities that are not particularly safe, especially at night.

Do take a look at the taxation of SS benefits. Minnesota taxes them at the same level the federal government does. Per my brief research, SS benefits are not taxed in Wisconsin.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by InvisibleAerobar »

Peter Foley wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:26 pm I live in the Twin Cities and my daughter lives in Madison. I have biked in both. My impression is the Twin Cities has more extensive bike paths. There are paths along the rivers, around many lakes, trails to suburbs (the Gateway Trail for example) and much more.

Note: there are areas of the Twin Cities that are not particularly safe, especially at night.

Do take a look at the taxation of SS benefits. Minnesota taxes them at the same level the federal government does. Per my brief research, SS benefits are not taxed in Wisconsin.
As an aside, many thanks for your helpful posts from a few years ago when we were deciding between Madison and Minneapolis.
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Hebell
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Hebell »

Oh yes, taxation is different, but we are trying not to let that be a big factor right now. We have plenty of after tax savings, and are selling off two rental properties, and don't need to draw social security until the last minute if need be. My husband can hold off for another 6 years, and 10 for me. So I'm keeping taxes out of the equation. I have a pension, but can hold off on that for 10 and 1/2 years.

We want to go all in on quality of life. Assuming my knee cooperates. It's declined but has some life left in it.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Longruninvestor »

As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants. The bike trails are extensive and well maintained. Decent night life and a nice theater scene. Some very good restaurants. Winter driving sucks. Taxes are outrageous; football fan or not you’ll be paying sales tax on most purchases so you can contribute to the billion dollar NFL stadium.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by winterfan »

I love both Madison and Minneapolis, but it sounds like Minneapolis meets your requirements the most. It has fantastic bike trails and plenty of places to canoe (especially if you're willing to expand your radius a bit). Don't be put off by the thought of not making friends. If you can connect with a bike/boat/theater group, you will make friends. I was a transplant once and had no trouble socializing and making friends in MN.
ronno2018
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by ronno2018 »

I love the Mac Groveland area of Saint Paul, MN. https://macgrove.org/ Lots of other cool neighborhoods in the Twin Cities though.

So many amazing cultural institutions. Guthrie theater, MIA (I was shocked at the collection the other month I was there), Walker art center, tons of colleges.

I am a fan. :sharebeer
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Hebell
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Hebell »

Hey, we will make friends at a chapter meeting of the Bogleheads group right? :D
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by alex_686 »

For both theater and experiential theater, I would point to Minneapolis. It has the highest number of ticket sales and seats per capita outside of New York. Their Fringe festival is one of the largest in the nation. Depending on the metric used, it may be the largest. COVID has been a issue, which I assume is true everywhere.

https://minnesotafringe.org/

Minneapolis is consistently ranked high in terms of being bike friendly.

There is a strong culture of board games. Bike to almost any craft brew taproom and you will find a few people playing a board game.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
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pezblanco
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by pezblanco »

Many people have made comments about biking in the twin cities vs. Madison. I'll just say that the biking around Madison is absolutely world class. Remember Madison is much smaller. You can get on a bike in Midtown and in 20 minutes be out in the country and then the awesomeness begins. Because of the dairy farms, all of the little roads in the country are paved. You can bike for hours outside of town with little or no traffic ... I've never seen anything like it. All of the dairy farms have to get their milk out in the winter and because of that there is a maze of little paved roads EVERYWHERE. Madison is at the edge of the Driftless Area and so there are plenty of hills and variation to be had .... seriously, it is road biking paradise. There is a huge selection of biking groups of all levels all doing different rides everywhere ... so anyway, don't worry about biking opportunities in Madison not being up to snuff compared to .... anywhere.
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SconnieBro
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by SconnieBro »

Both Madison and Twin Cities are great areas that check most of your boxes. One has a metro area of 3 million and the other has a metro area of 500k. Which do you prefer?
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by CFOKevin »

We're 61, have spent the last 18 years in Madison and have visited friends in Minneapolis many times. You've made two great choices based on your interests and the biggest difference to me is size of the area. As you probably know, the Minneapolis area is roughly 7x the size of the Madison area. Minneapolis is a major city with everything that goes with that (good and bad) and Madison is a midsized city with everything that goes with that (good and bad). Madison deserves all of the recognition it has received on the best places to live lists but many residents make the 90 minute trip to Milwaukee or the 2.5 hour trip to Chicago for major professional sports, top name concerts, highest-end restaurants and shopping. I'd be happy to answer any Madison-specific questions you have from the perspective of a retired resident.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Valuethinker »

Hebell wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:31 pm [Moved into a new thread from: Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN..Any advice? --admin LadyGeek]

Can we revive this for a retired couple that makes friends easily but doesn't know anybody in Minnesota or Wisconsin? We love cold weather.
Very active cyclists, would certainly join a recumbent trike club. Have our own canoe, which we would probably keep at a local boat club. Would join local meetup groups for board games, or dinner gatherings. Want close proximity to good restaurants, libraries, parks, community centers, experimental theater, and wherever people hang out. Don't care about sports clubs, job hunting or brew pubs. Love swimming, would love to be near an aquatics center. Snowmobiling or dog sledding outings, we love them both. We need to make the best of our sixties but know that we also need to reduce our fall risks and have access to good healthcare.

Minneapolis / St Paul or Madison?
And... moving from Florida?

Retirement in Florida always sounds like my idea of hell**... but I come from a (somewhat) northern climate (Great Lakes). Nothing like Minnesota though. Mind, I moved somewhere where it hardly ever even snows (London, England).

It does really come down to cities. Minneapolis-St Paul is a big city, with big city amenities, big city problems. Way back to William Least Heat Moon's book on travelling American backroads (Blue Highways) he noted the taciturn nature of the inhabitants - perhaps a hangover from the Scandinavian origins of many of them?

Madison is a much smaller center. Probably has everything you might want, but it might start to feel a bit "provincial". Probably people are friendlier (guess)?

** millions of North Americans... including plenty of Canadian snowbirds ... make the counterargument quite effectively.
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typical.investor
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by typical.investor »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:23 am
Hebell wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:31 pm
Minneapolis / St Paul or Madison?
And... moving from Florida?
Yeah, well you know the Moose in Mn are suffering heat stress more and more these days. It's not cold like it used to be -- I mean some days.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by nhs76 »

You might be pleasantly surprised by Milwaukee, WI and its vicinity as another option. Parks, bike trails, lakefront, riverwalk, world-class art museum, State Fair, pro and college sports, terrific restaurant options (especially downtown and in the Third Ward), markets, architecture, amazing summer festival scene. Quite a few culturally minded retirees sell in the suburbs and buy or rent downtown. We have a small house in the city and (mostly) love it here. That's not to say the metro doesn't have crime and budget problems, and the winters last too long, but if you're considering Minneapolis...yeah.
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typical.investor
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by typical.investor »

nhs76 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:33 am You might be pleasantly surprised by Milwaukee, WI and its vicinity as another option. Parks, bike trails, lakefront, riverwalk, world-class art museum, State Fair, pro and college sports, terrific restaurant options (especially downtown and in the Third Ward), markets, architecture, amazing summer festival scene. Quite a few culturally minded retirees sell in the suburbs and buy or rent downtown. We have a small house in the city and (mostly) love it here. That's not to say the metro doesn't have crime and budget problems, and the winters last too long, but if you're considering Minneapolis...yeah.
Being from Mn, I have always viewed Wisconsin with a great deal of suspicion.

That said, I notice today the Wall Street Journal points out Wisconsin is tops for freedom when it comes to state regulations on political expression and Florida (and California) is at the bottom.

I don't really know what that means, but nice job Wisconsin. As always, who the heck knows where Mn is .... hahahaha. I'm mean I always thought the rule was if your mouth wasn't frozen shut you could say it, but apparently that isn't the case. Or maybe they assumed teeth chattering in the cold isn't real freedom and Mn should have a regulation against it. It didn't say ... anyway, just keep moving and don't fall asleep and you will be fine.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Valuethinker »

nhs76 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:33 am You might be pleasantly surprised by Milwaukee, WI and its vicinity as another option. Parks, bike trails, lakefront, riverwalk, world-class art museum, State Fair, pro and college sports, terrific restaurant options (especially downtown and in the Third Ward), markets, architecture, amazing summer festival scene. Quite a few culturally minded retirees sell in the suburbs and buy or rent downtown. We have a small house in the city and (mostly) love it here. That's not to say the metro doesn't have crime and budget problems, and the winters last too long, but if you're considering Minneapolis...yeah.
My impression is that it is a city that has really suffered from deindustrialisation & associated urban decay (& crime)?

And is therefore deeply underrated. Low cost of living. Amenities as you describe.

There is something about the upper Midwest of the USA & a deeply pragmatic streak & civic-mindedness. Runs through business & through the people one meets from there.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by dsmclone »

As a midwestern that has visited(many times) but not lived in those places, my order would go something like this:

Madison
Milwaukee
-
-
-
Minneapolis
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tennisplyr
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by tennisplyr »

You might try joining/posting in the forum.

www.city-data.com/forum
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dbr
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by dbr »

Keep in mind Minneapolis is not Minneapolis but the Twin Cities, including also extensive suburban areas and outlying smaller towns. The local living experience is hugely variable across those locations.

The total bulk of resources for whatever interest you have or opportunity you seek is far greater in the Twin Cities than in Madison. If you don't want the associated Megapolis, including longer drives on freeways and so on, then Madison is the clear choice.

As with any such choice I think there is no substitute for spending extended time in either location to experiment with the experience.

Yes, I have at one time or another lived in both areas and would not categorically place one over the other. I suspect it is rare for people settled in either to just up and choose the other. I have also lived in Southern California, the Mountain West, and the East Coast and would say anyone in particular could prefer any of those to another or to Madison/Twin Cities. I have friends and family who have all those preferences.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Hebell »

Thank you are for the responses. I think we are tilting towards Minneapolis, because we can then go up most easily to the central and Northern areas of the state from time to time. We also feel, being in our early 60s it might be our last chance for our big city Go-Go years. It also seems to have more sunny days in winter time than in Madison or Milwaukee, but it's not a big difference like it would be between Minneapolis and Cleveland or Minneapolis and Pittsburgh.

Yes we are in Florida. We did things out of order compared to how it's usually done. My husband finished the last 7 high earning years of his career in Florida to realize the tax benefits and best work schedule. (We are a great team, my highest earning years were in the early and middle part of my career, but it came at the expense of very long working hours and incredible stress). We figured that our time in Florida has more than paid for giving us the freedom to go where we want to now, without letting taxes be a primary driver. And in any case we can hold off on social security for a while.

Perhaps it is my Scottish heritage, but living in Florida has been very difficult because of the weather. I will miss the friends and the civic involvement I've had in my county and condominium association, but my body cannot endure this heat anymore. However there are many other people who live here who have no problem whatsoever.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by dbr »

Also, for travellers MSP is a pretty nice airport with direct access to many destinations while MSN involves more connections.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Valuethinker »

Hebell wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:46 am Thank you are for the responses. I think we are tilting towards Minneapolis, because we can then go up most easily to the central and Northern areas of the state from time to time. We also feel, being in our early 60s it might be our last chance for our big city Go-Go years. It also seems to have more sunny days in winter time than in Madison or Milwaukee, but it's not a big difference like it would be between Minneapolis and Cleveland or Minneapolis and Pittsburgh.
Rent. Don't buy. At least in the first instance. A 'hood that looks good on paper, can turn out to have a major problem. Traffic. Crime. Or just (lack of) access to something you need - cultural (like a decent library) or a good hospital etc. That's true even if you pick the right urban area. Minn-St P is a big city (other than compared to the coastal megalopoli).

Just falling in with the right community group or friends - whether it's Bridge (kept my mother's mind going into her 90s), Chess or local affairs etc.

For me, it's important to have a good bookstore (I may not be able to hold to that for many years longer given way things are going) within reach and a nice place to sit, have coffee, read a paper, consider the state of the world. The latter amenity is currently about 150' from my front door.

OTOH London is terrible for public libraries. There is a private subscription library (about USD 700 pa) which is good. But a decent sized North American city probably has a better public library system.
Yes we are in Florida. We did things out of order compared to how it's usually done. My husband finished the last 7 high earning years of his career in Florida to realize the tax benefits and best work schedule. (We are a great team, my highest earning years were in the early and middle part of my career, but it came at the expense of very long working hours and incredible stress). We figured that our time in Florida has more than paid for giving us the freedom to go where we want to now, without letting taxes be a primary driver. And in any case we can hold off on social security for a while.

Perhaps it is my Scottish heritage, but living in Florida has been very difficult because of the weather. I will miss the friends and the civic involvement I've had in my county and condominium association, but my body cannot endure this heat anymore. However there are many other people who live here who have no problem whatsoever.
My guess is it is the humidity rather than the heat per se?

It's absolutely true that those of us with a "Celtic complexion" don't do well in southern climes due to sunlight. I am not at all sure that is true re heat - I think all humans acclimatize (although perhaps a native peoples inhabitant of the northern latitudes might have adaptations which are less optimal for hot climates). Perhaps if one was not born to it, one never really adjusts.

I do believe the exertion required in winter can be a healthy thing. However having seen my father injure himself quite badly walking on ice (as part of his cardiac recovery plan, he gamely walked 2 miles a day almost every day of the year) and my mother become unable to manage it, that's not a universal rule. OTOH a relation has lived on one of the Great Lakes (somewhere quite flat), and walks their dogs every day for the last 25 years - it has definitely helped staying fit into their old age.
Marseille07
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Marseille07 »

If healthcare is one of the requirements, it's hard to beat the Mayo Clinic as they're the best in the nation. I'd go with Minneapolis.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by BarbBrooklyn »

I love the Twin Cities; my son went to the U. Just make sure you've spent a winter there before you move.

I remember a February phone call when it hit 40 below and they closed the Ice Carnival.

And maybe watch the scene in Fargo where William H. Macy starts his car. I'd get a remote starter for sure.
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delamer
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by delamer »

I hesitate a little to tell this story, because it’s a downer. But it’s also a tale that is worth considering when choosing a new retirement locale:

Friends of a friend always had wanted to build a home out in the country after living in major metro areas throughout their careers. They purchased a lot in rural PA and built their dream home, not just away from friends and family but even without any neighbors.

Six months after they moved in, he died of a heart attack completely out of the blue.

So she was stuck living alone in a country house, near nobody and nothing.

Bottom line is, It’s worth thinking out what would happen if one of you was widowed near no support system.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Firemenot »

Madison all day long over Twin Cities, especially in retirement.

Also, Wisconsin culture is much more welcoming to outsiders than Minnesota culture. And I say this having grown up in Minnesota. So many transplants struggled to break in socially. Most of their friends were other transplants in the end.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Cody »

The metro area of Minnesota has an outstanding Bogleheads group. The average meeting size is around 65-100 member (group meets 4 times per year). In addition there are 2 smaller "breakout" groups that meet in the west and east (which I lead) metro area 3 or 4 times a year (are currently on pause generally do to covid).

These are great people and you could quite easily connect with people in the groups.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by runninginvestor »

Madison (area) take:

We love the library system. It's very flexible and basically allows you to get any book w/in the state. Between ebook selections and physical copies, we really only buy books we want to put on our bookshelf.

Board game: there are several stores and groups. This is one we've frequented the most: https://play.nobleknight.com/

Trail system: amazing. Paved cycling is expansive as others have noted. You also have access to the Ice Age Trail for endless hiking. There are also dirt/gravel trails that are fairly flat that can get you many miles of cycling. For instance, the Military Ridge State Tail runs EastWest from Dodgeville to Madison for ~37 miles. This goes through the fairly close western towns like Verona/Fitchburg/Mount Horeb for good weekend rides for lunches and such.

Great county dog parks if you have dogs.

University: Seniors can guest audit lectures for some courses if that interest you. I believe it's free for seniors 60+.
https://acsss.wisc.edu/senior-guest-auditors/
A list of some clases that are popular for auditors

edit: free zoo!
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by cbs2002 »

nhs76 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:33 am You might be pleasantly surprised by Milwaukee, WI and its vicinity as another option. Parks, bike trails, lakefront, riverwalk, world-class art museum, State Fair, pro and college sports, terrific restaurant options (especially downtown and in the Third Ward), markets, architecture, amazing summer festival scene. Quite a few culturally minded retirees sell in the suburbs and buy or rent downtown. We have a small house in the city and (mostly) love it here. That's not to say the metro doesn't have crime and budget problems, and the winters last too long, but if you're considering Minneapolis...yeah.
I strongly endorse this position. Even if you don't end up moving to Milwaukee, it's worth a weekend visit now and then. Great small city. The thing it has that the other two don't is Lake Michigan, you may or may not care. I think it's also slightly larger and more dense than the TC.

Madison is splendid for what you want. However, I can't say I've ever thought of Madison and "Big City Go Go" in the same sentence. Madison feels like a big town to me, and I don't mean that pejoratively. It's just not what I consider a city, similarly to how I view Ann Arbor, Michigan.

I barely know Minnesota so can't speak to it, except to say that clearly the Twin Cities fall more on the side of "city" than Madison does.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by vitaflo »

Longruninvestor wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:53 pm As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants.
This is a real concern. I've spent half my life in WI and the other half in MN. MN social circles are very insular and it's a super tough nut to crack as an outsider. WI is, well the exact opposite. Walk into a bar in WI and it's hard not to leave with new friends. Do the same in MN and good luck striking up much of a convo with anyone. Probably has something to do with the cultural heritage of the two states (Scandinavian vs German).

Don't get me wrong, I love MN but it's something to be aware of before you move. It's not that the people there aren't friendly, it's just that they don't like to be bothered by other people they don't already know. Wisconsinites in comparison tend to revel in idle chit chat.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Firemenot »

vitaflo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:23 pm
Longruninvestor wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:53 pm As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants.
This is a real concern. I've spent half my life in WI and the other half in MN. MN social circles are very insular and it's a super tough nut to crack as an outsider. WI is, well the exact opposite. Walk into a bar in WI and it's hard not to leave with new friends. Do the same in MN and good luck striking up much of a convo with anyone. Probably has something to do with the cultural heritage of the two states (Scandinavian vs German).

Don't get me wrong, I love MN but it's something to be aware of before you move. It's not that the people there aren't friendly, it's just that they don't like to be bothered by other people they don't already know. Wisconsinites in comparison tend to revel in idle chit chat.
My experience exactly too. And with bars too.
investorpeter
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by investorpeter »

I've visited both extensively, and for an active, recumbent bike-type of retirement lifestyle, I personally think Madison has a few more advantages. Madison is more of a college town - walkable, idyllic campus setting between two lakes - with all of the cultural amenities that come with a liberal college town - varying cuisines, shops, small theaters, clubs, social activities, etc. Cost of living is likely a bit lower in Madison than in Minneapolis (depending on which area of Minneapolis you are looking at). Both are excellent biking towns with extensive bike paths. And both have incredible lakes. I think Madison takes the cake though being nestled between two lakes.

Minneapolis (or the Twin-Cities area) is much larger than Madison so there are more established, nationally-recognized, cultural institutions such as the Minnesota Orchestra, Guthrie Theater, Minneapolis Museum of Art, and Walker Art Center, but outside of the central downtown area and immediate surrounding neighborhoods where these institutions are located, there is a lot of typical suburban sprawl that will likely require driving to get from one place to another. Traffic can get bad, especially in the spring and summer due to the short construction season. The downtown area has changed significantly since the pandemic with many large and small retailers closing shop due to low office building occupancy. Minneapolis has also been ground-zero for much of the "defund the police" movement, with the resulting negative effects on police morale, and increasing crime. Prior to the pandemic, downtown Minneapolis was experiencing something of a revival with luxury condos being built everywhere you looked, largely catering to a young professional and young retired demographic. But the future of downtown is now uncertain, with many condos selling at significant discounts. Some major advantages Minneapolis has over Madison are convenient access to an international airport that is a major hub for Delta, and easy access to the north shore and boundary waters. And for those not yet retired, the major draw of Minneapolis is usually the abundant jobs. MN has the lowest unemployment rate at 1.8%.

Overall, Minneapolis is a great city compared to other comparable size cities in terms of convenience, ease of living, and general quality of life, but I think Madison has a slight edge for retirement-living. But you really can't go wrong with either choice.
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Hebell
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Hebell »

Based on the wonderful replies here, we will take a couple of trips to the cold North, and check out each location including Milwaukee.


Madison certainly has its adherents but I think we would have to use our car more there for the things we like to do outside of biking. The public transit of Minneapolis would offset that.

Milwaukee looks like an up-and-comer too (though based on YouTube videos, it looks like the real estate market already knows that!)
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by LawEgr1 »

Lived in Minneapolis, Madison & Milwaukee. All of this is one person's opinion.

Being as unbiased as I can be, they rank: Minneapolis > Madison >>>>>>> Milwaukee. I find Milwaukee to be quite depressing & since it wasn't named as an option, I wouldn't even have it enter OPs thoughts.

I miss Minneapolis, the neighborhood ice rinks everywhere, the flannels, the absolutely cold weather that I hated and now miss, the hotter summers, the lakes everywhere, the vast amount of people and things to do. The *only* item I don't miss, and it's an important one, is MN Nice is a total thing and you will find there are a lack of folks that even say hi to you on a sidewalk. It's extremely odd.

Madison is a smaller version of Minneapolis in my book, I personally like it a lot and the college culture that comes with it.

The advantage, in my opinion, of Madison is that you are closer to various larger cities: Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Chicago. You can then do a day trip as needed, or weekend trip as needed. Minneapolis is it's own unit and you often never need to leave. The amount of people that never leave the area is incredible (and the good and bad that go with that). Objectively though, I get why they never leave...everything you need is right there, and it's cleaner.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by LawEgr1 »

Firemenot wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
vitaflo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:23 pm
Longruninvestor wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:53 pm As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants.
This is a real concern. I've spent half my life in WI and the other half in MN. MN social circles are very insular and it's a super tough nut to crack as an outsider. WI is, well the exact opposite. Walk into a bar in WI and it's hard not to leave with new friends. Do the same in MN and good luck striking up much of a convo with anyone. Probably has something to do with the cultural heritage of the two states (Scandinavian vs German).

Don't get me wrong, I love MN but it's something to be aware of before you move. It's not that the people there aren't friendly, it's just that they don't like to be bothered by other people they don't already know. Wisconsinites in comparison tend to revel in idle chit chat.
My experience exactly too. And with bars too.
I generally agree with all of this. It's a definite + for WI.
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typical.investor
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by typical.investor »

LawEgr1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:40 pm
Firemenot wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
vitaflo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:23 pm
Longruninvestor wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:53 pm As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants.
This is a real concern. I've spent half my life in WI and the other half in MN. MN social circles are very insular and it's a super tough nut to crack as an outsider. WI is, well the exact opposite. Walk into a bar in WI and it's hard not to leave with new friends. Do the same in MN and good luck striking up much of a convo with anyone. Probably has something to do with the cultural heritage of the two states (Scandinavian vs German).

Don't get me wrong, I love MN but it's something to be aware of before you move. It's not that the people there aren't friendly, it's just that they don't like to be bothered by other people they don't already know. Wisconsinites in comparison tend to revel in idle chit chat.
My experience exactly too. And with bars too.
I generally agree with all of this. It's a definite + for WI.
Germans are friendly now? As a proud wearer of lederhosen in elementary school to proclaim my grandfather's price, I'd say I am familiar with German culture but I never really knew that.

Anyway, here are my data points:

1) a German/Irish friend whose family branch started on the boat on the way over. She visited Ireland and Germany to see family who of course didn't know she and her parents and grandparents existed. She reported the Irish welcoming her like family and the Germans being cold with probably a 20 year warm up needed. YMMV. Of course, I should add my German family side liked to say "they have the devil in them" about the Family's Irish side due to their abundant cheekiness.

2) Empirical research (one study mind you - this is not conclusive) ranks both Minnestota and Wisconsin high in both Extroversion and Agreeableness. MN was 5th and 2nd (state rank) in those categories which Wisconsin was 2nd and 5th. Neither ranked high in Openness. Mn was 40th and WI 47th. North Dakota ranked #1,#1, and #51 so maybe that is the winner. [DC was counted as a State for this research]

3) My bar experience in WI refutes the glowing characterizations but it wasn't Maddison and the OP probably isn't bar hopping so much these days per their interest list so no point in discussing this

My observation though is that the differences between Minnesotans, Wisconsinites, Floridans, Californians and even New Yorkers is quite small relative to many groups outside the US. My experience as an ex-pat for 25 years is that you can get included anywhere if you go about it the right way.

If you are really going to say there is a meaningful difference between Minnesotans and Wisconsinites, I'm just going to chuckle ...seriously? I guess it's a matter of perspective and your perspective is your perspective no matter what.

https://pdodds.w3.uvm.edu/research/pape ... w2008a.pdf
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Cofdrinkr »

I think it sounds like MN is for you. Having moved from Manhattan to WI via CT, I can tell you Madison and MKE are going to be too small for you. They are tiny. So if it’s a go go city, MSP has much more everything. That’s not to say that Madison and MKE don’t have a lot to offer, but not the no car city lifestyle you are looking for.

I will chime in on WI friendliness. In CT, and NYC, we met our neighbors after 6 months to several years. Moving to WI, we had lasagnas, and offers to watch the kids while we unpack, and dozens of people stopping by to welcome us and introduce themselves on moving day and weeks after. We could not work on the yard without someone stopping by. I really had to change my east coast attitude. And yes, there are tons of people with German last names, and I was also under the impression from my own Irish/German family that it took time for them to warm up to you, but I haven’t seen that here. It’s almost as though Wisconsin is a club. Fish fries on Friday nights, a love of beer, brandy and bloodies, Packers, no fear of the cold, and an attitude that the weather won’t stop them, in fact they embrace it. Ice fishing in crazy temps, playing hockey on ponds, snow mobile trails all over and tailgating in every weather condition. You need to embrace the cold. In WI anyways, there’s usually a week of 25 below where people don’t tend to turn their cars off to run in the store. I don’t think we get as much snow as MN because every time I’ve gone to MSP in the winter, it starts snowing around Tomah on the way there, and stops snowing around the same place on the way back. It’s also crazy windy here. Much of the population has either a cottage up north, a boat, snow mobiles, season Packer tickets or all of the above.

We moved here to get away from the crazy hustle of NYC, and we love it. But I would guess that MSP would fit your needs better.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by JackoC »

typical.investor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:37 pm
LawEgr1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:40 pm
Firemenot wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
vitaflo wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:23 pm
Longruninvestor wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:53 pm As a lifelong Minnesotan I must advise that making friends in this state will be extremely difficult no matter how polished your social skills. Every transplant I know has struggled and the trend seems to be they develop social networks mostly with other transplants.
This is a real concern. I've spent half my life in WI and the other half in MN. MN social circles are very insular and it's a super tough nut to crack as an outsider. WI is, well the exact opposite. Walk into a bar in WI and it's hard not to leave with new friends. Do the same in MN and good luck striking up much of a convo with anyone. Probably has something to do with the cultural heritage of the two states (Scandinavian vs German).

Don't get me wrong, I love MN but it's something to be aware of before you move. It's not that the people there aren't friendly, it's just that they don't like to be bothered by other people they don't already know. Wisconsinites in comparison tend to revel in idle chit chat.
My experience exactly too. And with bars too.
I generally agree with all of this. It's a definite + for WI.
Germans are friendly now? As a proud wearer of lederhosen in elementary school to proclaim my grandfather's price, I'd say I am familiar with German culture but I never really knew that.


If you are really going to say there is a meaningful difference between Minnesotans and Wisconsinites, I'm just going to chuckle ...seriously? I guess it's a matter of perspective and your perspective is your perspective no matter what.
I'm not sure about the relative between MN and WI. Kids of mine have lived in each, I've visited a good deal. On heritage, Scandinavian outnumbers German in MN but some parts of MN were mainly settled by Germans, like where my kid lived in west-central MN. Many/most people there are Catholic too (not trying to get into religion per se but German Catholic is a bit different original culture). But I'd say for both states not a huge number of people migrate to the Upper Midwest (mainly from other countries if so, often creating their own social circles) and anywhere where a lot of people are 'from there' tends to be harder to break into socially than someplace where almost nobody among older adults is originally from there. It's not just the national culture (by reputation, or real) of the group that mainly settled the area originally. I would also think Madison (where the other kid lived) as mainly a college town is different than most of WI just like college towns everywhere. Far out of staters (ie not Minnesotans, Dakotans etc.) at UW Madison tend somewhat to flock together also was my observation, but there are pretty many of them and it's not unusual for people to stay where they went to college so Madison pretty cosmopolitan for its size, partly balances the inherently more cosmopolitan nature of a much bigger metro area like Twin Cities.

Anyway OP said they make friends easily, very hard to evaluate a simple statement like that but people's ability/comfort in sticking with it to 'crack the nut' of a social scene that's 'nice' to outsiders but doesn't really want to have a lot to do with them, varies very widely by person.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by MMiroir »

Having spent considerable time in Minneapolis and Madison for work, to me Madison is easily a better place to retire to. In my mind, Madison reminds of Austin, Texas 20 to 30 years ago. Due to the combination of a strong university, the state capital, and strong local tech employers, Madison will be one of the fastest growing and most successful metropolitan areas in the Midwest in the coming decades, and most of that growth will be in high paying industries. Minneapolis on the other hand has shot itself in the foot economically in the past few years, and I don't see the area doing much better in the future.

Culturally, the "Minnesota nice" stereotype is a real thing. Expect lots of passive/aggressive behavior from the locals. On the other hand, if you wear a Bucky or Packer hat into any bar in Wisconsin, you will be welcome.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Glockenspiel »

Peter Foley wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:26 pm
Note: there are areas of the Twin Cities that are not particularly safe, especially at night.
In almost every large city in America, use common sense and don't instigate conflict with strangers at nighttime and you'll be fine. Same is true in Minneapolis/St. Paul.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by lostdog »

In Wisconsin, you'll have closer access to the Great Lakes. Door County is beautiful and it will easily beat out Minnesota in every aspect.

Northern Wisconsin is way better than anything Minnesota has to offer in terms of woods and lakes. Minocqua, Eagle River chain, Door County, The Great Lakes, etc...

Northern Wisconsin Lakes are cleaner than Minnesota lakes. Better fishing all around.

Wisconsin beats out Minnesota in every area, especially when it comes to the people, land and the Great Lakes. You're better off avoiding Minnesota.
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Glockenspiel
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Glockenspiel »

MMiroir wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:11 am Minneapolis on the other hand has shot itself in the foot economically in the past few years, and I don't see the area doing much better in the future.
Huh? Minnesota is 3rd in the country in Fortune 500 companies per capita, due to great education systems, strong work ethic, entrepreneurial support, and excellent quality of life. Unemployment rate in Minnesota in June 2022 was 1.8%, the lowest EVER recorded in Minnesota's state history.
dbr
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by dbr »

I still wonder if there is some confusion here between moving to the City of Minneapolis or to the Twin Cities area. I am not sure I would live in Minneapolis but the Twin Cities certainly offer much that is not that city. It would be like confusing the New York/NJ metropolitan area with Manhattan.

I also think it likely the concern over "friendliness" may contain some grains of truth but is being portrayed too harshly.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Glockenspiel »

dbr wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:34 am I still wonder if there is some confusion here between moving to the City of Minneapolis or to the Twin Cities area. I am not sure I would live in Minneapolis but the Twin Cities certainly offer much that is not that city. It would be like confusing the New York/NJ metropolitan area with Manhattan.

I also think it likely the concern over "friendliness" may contain some grains of truth but is being portrayed too harshly.
There are some incredibly nice areas in southern, western, and even northeastern Minneapolis (proper). I live in a close suburb and would consider approximately 60-75% of the city's area to be a desirable place to live.

With regards to the friendliness, we just moved to a new neighborhood in December and I consider several of our new neighbors to be our closest friends. When you have things in common with other people, it's easy to make friends. Don't move to places where you have nothing in common with anyone.
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by Old Guy »

I think I contributed to this thread the first time around but reading the replies has made me think again about our sojourn in Madison. As aside, I know nothing about Minneapolis. We spent 10 years in our retirement jobs in Mad City after we left the federal government. We had a great time. We lived downtown in a condo building overlooking Lake Monona. I took a bus two blocks away to my retirement job at the University, and my wife walked three blocks for her state retirement job. There were lots of restaurants and theater. People were friendly. My wife made a number of good friends from her job and in the building. My position at the University was such that I could not be friendly with anybody other than my boss.

There’s certainly won’t be as much theater, shopping, or restaurants in Madison as there are in Minneapolis. For us one of the best things about living in Madison was Chicago. We bought a condo in downtown Chicago in the River North section and drove there two or three weekends a month. I would not live in Chicago but boy it was a great place to spend weekends and time off during Christmas and New Year’s and other multi day holidays.

We finally realized that we had to leave Madison after my wife separated her shoulder twice from slipping on the ice and I fell on the ice three times the last winter. It’s just too darn cold and we were too old. Minneapolis’ winters may be worse. So we moved to the beach in southeastern South Carolina. No more -14°, no more snow. But, we did love Madison.
bstevlin
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by bstevlin »

Old Guy wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:06 am I think I contributed to this thread the first time around but reading the replies has made me think again about our sojourn in Madison. As aside, I know nothing about Minneapolis. We spent 10 years in our retirement jobs in Mad City after we left the federal government. We had a great time. We lived downtown in a condo building overlooking Lake Monona. I took a bus two blocks away to my retirement job at the University, and my wife walked three blocks for her state retirement job. There were lots of restaurants and theater. People were friendly. My wife made a number of good friends from her job and in the building. My position at the University was such that I could not be friendly with anybody other than my boss.

There’s certainly won’t be as much theater, shopping, or restaurants in Madison as there are in Minneapolis. For us one of the best things about living in Madison was Chicago. We bought a condo in downtown Chicago in the River North section and drove there two or three weekends a month. I would not live in Chicago but boy it was a great place to spend weekends and time off during Christmas and New Year’s and other multi day holidays.

We finally realized that we had to leave Madison after my wife separated her shoulder twice from slipping on the ice and I fell on the ice three times the last winter. It’s just too darn cold and we were too old. Minneapolis’ winters may be worse. So we moved to the beach in southeastern South Carolina. No more -14°, no more snow. But, we did love Madison.

Our neighbors moved from Madison after they retired. They said for environmental reasons Madison is not keen to put salt on the streets and sidewalks. Is this true, I would not be surprised.
srt7
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Re: [Retired couple] Thinking about moving to Madison, WI or Minneapolis, MN

Post by srt7 »

delamer wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:23 pm I hesitate a little to tell this story, because it’s a downer. But it’s also a tale that is worth considering when choosing a new retirement locale:

Friends of a friend always had wanted to build a home out in the country after living in major metro areas throughout their careers. They purchased a lot in rural PA and built their dream home, not just away from friends and family but even without any neighbors.

Six months after they moved in, he died of a heart attack completely out of the blue.

So she was stuck living alone in a country house, near nobody and nothing.

Bottom line is, It’s worth thinking out what would happen if one of you was widowed near no support system.
This! A million times this!

Hope for the best but ... plan for the worst!
Taking care of tomorrow while enjoying today.
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