Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

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Pacific
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Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

Vg will not allow me to automatically exchange $1,000 each month from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA Target Retirement fund.

So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.

I could not do it, so I called Vg which today told me that in order to get the $$ each month from TIPS fund to the settlement fund, I must do it manually. Vg could not explain the reason for this. It doesn't make sense to me -- does it make sense to anyone else?

Does anyone (Galawdog?) know if Schwab would allow such an exchange? or, at least, a 2-step process that is automatic?
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by asset_chaos »

Is the TIPs "fund" a mutual fund or an exchange traded fund? It sounds like it's an ETF. Sell the ETF in the IRA and buy the equivalent mutual fund. Then you may be able to schedule an automatic constant dollar exchange from one mutual fund to another mutual fund. If you have a brokerage only account, I think the exchange will still have to go through the settlement fund, but at least you should be able to schedule two constant dollar exchanges to do what you want.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by nisiprius »

The "old platform" (which could contain Vanguard mutual funds only) allowed automatic exchanges between Vanguard mutual funds. (In that system, you needed to have two completely separate accounts, a mutual fund account that contained only Vanguard mutual funds, and a Vanguard Brokerage Services account which contain anything that wasn't a Vanguard mutual fund. I don't think you could set up automatic exchanges within the VBS account or across the two accounts).

On the "new platform," everything--Vanguard funds, Vanguard ETFs, and everything else--is held in a single account. i would have hoped for full feature parity on the new platform, but in fact some features available on the old platform have never been implemented on the new platform.

Automatic exchanges is one of them.

The new platform does have advantages, mostly for things I don't personally do (I believe you can now do a mutual fund "sell to buy" non-Vanguard for Vanguard on the same day, which you couldn't do before--don't hold me to that, it's just something I read in the forum). But they threw out a few babies with the bathwater.

As for "why," I couldn't say. It gripes me and it is one of many small things that makes me somewhat less satisfied with Vanguard than I used to be.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rkhusky »

Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by ruralavalon »

Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am Vg will not allow me to automatically exchange $1,000 each month from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA Target Retirement fund.

So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.

I could not do it, so I called Vg which today told me that in order to get the $$ each month from TIPS fund to the settlement fund, I must do it manually. Vg could not explain the reason for this. It doesn't make sense to me -- does it make sense to anyone else?

Does anyone (Galawdog?) know if Schwab would allow such an exchange? or, at least, a 2-step process that is automatic?
This is one of the drawbacks of the new brokerage platform versus the older mutual fund platform.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by markjk »

rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
That's what I was wondering as well.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rkhusky »

markjk wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:12 am
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
That's what I was wondering as well.
I just tried this and received an error message that automated withdrawals from an IRA are not allowed for those under age 59.5. As stated, automated exchanges are not allowed for brokerage accounts. Only thing allowed are automated investments for less than 59.5 with brokerage IRA accounts.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by sycamore »

Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am Does anyone (Galawdog?) know if Schwab would allow such an exchange? or, at least, a 2-step process that is automatic?
AFAIK Schwab does not support an automatic "exchange" feature.

Schwab has an Automatic Investment Plan that lets you buy a fund automatically, but you have to pay for each purchase with either:
- Electronic funds transfer with Schwab MoneyLink
- Direct Deposit
- Cash in account (Cash includes money market funds, margin cash available or proceeds from the sale of another investment.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rbd789 »

rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:40 am
markjk wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:12 am
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
That's what I was wondering as well.
I just tried this and received an error message that automated withdrawals from an IRA are not allowed for those under age 59.5. As stated, automated exchanges are not allowed for brokerage accounts. Only thing allowed are automated investments for less than 59.5 with brokerage IRA accounts.
This tells me that the sale is interpreted as a distribution (which you definitely don't want). This is what I would expect if your TIPS fund is on the old mutual fund platform and therefore independent of the IRA TR account. Consider letting VG convert both to a single brokerage account. I know some do not like this idea. But you should then be able to transfer directly from one to the other (i.e. within the IRA). I have no personal knowledge whether or not the automated sell would then work, but without the brokerage, it certainly cannot. I expect you cannot even sell the existing TIPS fund manually, now, without it being an undesirable distribution.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

asset_chaos wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:33 am Is the TIPs "fund" a mutual fund or an exchange traded fund? It sounds like it's an ETF. Sell the ETF in the IRA and buy the equivalent mutual fund. Then you may be able to schedule an automatic constant dollar exchange from one mutual fund to another mutual fund. If you have a brokerage only account, I think the exchange will still have to go through the settlement fund, but at least you should be able to schedule two constant dollar exchanges to do what you want.
It has always been a mutual fund (VTAPX). I made the fateful error of switching everything to brokerage about a year ago.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
No, I cannot. There is no automatic "sell" function -- the closest is an automatic "withdrawal", but it only allows an automatic "withdrawal" to a (i) bank account, or (ii) Vanguard brokerage non-retirement account/
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

rbd789 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:57 pm
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:40 am
markjk wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:12 am
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
That's what I was wondering as well.
I just tried this and received an error message that automated withdrawals from an IRA are not allowed for those under age 59.5. As stated, automated exchanges are not allowed for brokerage accounts. Only thing allowed are automated investments for less than 59.5 with brokerage IRA accounts.
This tells me that the sale is interpreted as a distribution (which you definitely don't want). This is what I would expect if your TIPS fund is on the old mutual fund platform and therefore independent of the IRA TR account. Consider letting VG convert both to a single brokerage account. I know some do not like this idea. But you should then be able to transfer directly from one to the other (i.e. within the IRA). I have no personal knowledge whether or not the automated sell would then work, but without the brokerage, it certainly cannot. I expect you cannot even sell the existing TIPS fund manually, now, without it being an undesirable distribution.
I fully understand (well, not fully) that Vg just does not allow the exchange of funds in my TIRA brokerage account from VAIPX to my TR fund, but I do not understand why I cannot set up an automatic monthly exchange or sale (or whatever semantics are used) from VAIPX to my TIRA settlement fund. I guess this is just another unsolvable enigma of life, but it just does not make sense to me.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by alex_686 »

nisiprius wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:33 am As for "why," I couldn't say. It gripes me and it is one of many small things that makes me somewhat less satisfied with Vanguard than I used to be.
Having worked operations I can tell you doing this is harder then it looks from a technical perspective. Worse, it leads to all sorts of human errors that take much customer rep time to fix what the client has mucked up.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rkhusky »

alex_686 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:40 pm
nisiprius wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:33 am As for "why," I couldn't say. It gripes me and it is one of many small things that makes me somewhat less satisfied with Vanguard than I used to be.
Having worked operations I can tell you doing this is harder then it looks from a technical perspective. Worse, it leads to all sorts of human errors that take much customer rep time to fix what the client has mucked up.
If they have an automated withdrawal to an external account, then it should be less of a problem to do an automated sell that puts the funds into the settlement fund in the same account.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rkhusky »

Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:30 pm
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
No, I cannot. There is no automatic "sell" function -- the closest is an automatic "withdrawal", but it only allows an automatic "withdrawal" to a (i) bank account, or (ii) Vanguard brokerage non-retirement account/
I couldn't get that far to see what the options were.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by markjk »

rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:40 am
markjk wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:12 am
rkhusky wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am
Pacific wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:23 am So, I set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA settlement fund to my IRA TR fund, and then went to set up an "automatic investment" of $1,000 from my IRA TIPS fund to my IRA settlement fund two days before the other transaction.
You can't do an automated "sell" (rather than "exchange") of the IRA TIPS fund? The cash should automatically go to the settlement fund.
That's what I was wondering as well.
I just tried this and received an error message that automated withdrawals from an IRA are not allowed for those under age 59.5. As stated, automated exchanges are not allowed for brokerage accounts. Only thing allowed are automated investments for less than 59.5 with brokerage IRA accounts.
Hm ... I'm not sure why it thought you were withdrawing from the IRA at any point. The sale transaction should just result in the funds going into the settlement fund (should be your money market fund). Next, the purchase transaction would pull money from the settlement fund to buy shares of the TIPS fund. No money leaves the IRA so no withdrawal.

Something seems amiss in all of this. Maybe you can't automate anything if you are under 59.5 which seems odd and silly. But who knows. Hopefully you get it figured out. Best of luck!
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

markjk wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:17 am ... The sale transaction should just result in the funds going into the settlement fund (should be your money market fund). Next, the purchase transaction would pull money from the settlement fund to buy shares of the TIPS fund. No money leaves the IRA so no withdrawal.

Something seems amiss in all of this. Maybe you can't automate anything if you are under 59.5 which seems odd and silly. But who knows. Hopefully you get it figured out. Best of luck!
IMO, this is exactly the way that it SHOULD work, but it does not.
And, I am way past 59.5.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by asset_chaos »

Were you by any chance moved from the legacy brokerage platform, as discussed in this thread? The legacy brokerage transition is different to the transition from old style mutual funds platform to the new style brokerage only platform.

I had an IRA that was the only account on the legacy brokerage platform. The IRA had mutual funds in the old style mutual fund platform and one etf in the legacy brokerage platform. One thing that happened when Vanguard transitioned that account from the legacy brokerage platform was that the IRA became split into two separate IRA accounts, one with the mutual funds and a separate IRA with the etf. When this split happened, I could no exchange from the etf to a mutual fund within the IRA because Vanguard's platform insisted on treating the exchange as a redemption from the IRA. The IRA account that had been a single account for more than 15 years was suddenly treated by Vanguard as two completely separate IRA accounts. It took many weeks of phone calls and messages to get that straightened out.

What happened to me sounds enough similar to what you're experiencing that I thought it worthwhile to ask.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by nisiprius »

Not being able to do it before age 59½ seems particularly annoying because a plausible rationale for automated distributions would be to create a "SEPP," series of substantially equal periodic payments. I understand that it might not be feasible to do this in a way that wouldn't create opportunities for user error and unintentionally evoking tax penalties.

But the real question is why not automatic exchanges within a fund, since that used to be possible? A lot of the issues being discussed here are the consequences of trying to create workarounds by combining automatic sales and automatic purchases. But it shouldn't be necessary to do that.

In the past, I used automatic exchanges, within a rollover IRA (i.e. a kind of TIRA), to create gradual adjustments in asset allocation, for example spreading out a desired change over two years instead of all at once.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

asset_chaos wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 am Were you by any chance moved from the legacy brokerage platform, as discussed in this thread? The legacy brokerage transition is different to the transition from old style mutual funds platform to the new style brokerage only platform.

I had an IRA that was the only account on the legacy brokerage platform. The IRA had mutual funds in the old style mutual fund platform and one etf in the legacy brokerage platform. One thing that happened when Vanguard transitioned that account from the legacy brokerage platform was that the IRA became split into two separate IRA accounts, one with the mutual funds and a separate IRA with the etf. When this split happened, I could no exchange from the etf to a mutual fund within the IRA because Vanguard's platform insisted on treating the exchange as a redemption from the IRA. The IRA account that had been a single account for more than 15 years was suddenly treated by Vanguard as two completely separate IRA accounts. It took many weeks of phone calls and messages to get that straightened out.

What happened to me sounds enough similar to what you're experiencing that I thought it worthwhile to ask.
I just don't know. All I know is that my "Traditional IRA Brokerage Account" has the following:
1. Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund (Settlement fund)
2. VAIPX (TIPS)
3. VTAPX (Short-term TIPS)
4. VTINX (TR income)

I can automatically "invest" monthly from 1 to 4 (and 2 and 3).
I cannot automatically "invest" monthly from 3 to 1 (or 2 or 4).
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Bud »

auto exchanges were the feature I most used on the old platform and now it isn't available. This is a major frustration and also has me wondering if it is worth it to stay w Vanguard.

Personally I would sweep all distribution to my MM account, then auto invest from the MM to different mutual funds. This was easy to track, easy to maintain, easy to adjust as needed.

I wonder if there is a way to get this feature back. What be the best venue to ask for this feature to be added?
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Bud wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 am auto exchanges were the feature I most used on the old platform and now it isn't available. This is a major frustration and also has me wondering if it is worth it to stay w Vanguard.

Personally I would sweep all distribution to my MM account, then auto invest from the MM to different mutual funds. This was easy to track, easy to maintain, easy to adjust as needed.

I wonder if there is a way to get this feature back. What be the best venue to ask for this feature to be added?
I have the brokerage account, and I have all my funds set up to dump all dividends and capital gains distributions into my settlement fund (which is the money market fund VMFXX). Why can't you do that?
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by nisiprius »

Bud wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 am...I wonder if there is a way to get this feature back. What be the best venue to ask for this feature to be added?...
Although I've had great luck with letters to the CEO when what I wanted was small amounts of money representing fair treatment, getting a company to change what it is doing is another matter and I don't have any expertise. So this is all handwaving.

It seems to me that Vanguard needs to hear from users who are actually using automatic exchanges, and should be told that these users need this if Vanguard wants them to migrate to the new platform.

And I think it might as well be presented as a letter to the CEO.

The usual rules apply: a printed, paper letter, mailed via USPS in a hand-addressed envelope with a stamp. No more than one page long.

The first sentence should say what you want the company to do. In this case, possibly, "Please make an automatic exchange feature available on the new platform. I use it on the old platform, I need it, and I can't migrate to the new platform without it."

In this case, if possible include a screenshot of the "account settings" page that show "automatic exchange" as an option, so that it is clear exactly what you are talking about. If you can find the screen that actually displays the forthcoming transfers and their scheduled dates, even better. The point is to show that this isn't hypothetical, you really use the feature.

Try to give a short explanation in a couple of sentences of why you are using the feature. For example "I am using a do-it-yourself glide path to gradually adjust my allocation between Total Bond and Inflation-Protected Securities."

The tone should of course be cordial

I think this is the correct address, hope others will eyeball it. I'm pretty sure it's close enough to work, anyway:

Mortimer J. Buckley, CEO
The Vanguard Group
100 Vanguard Blvd
Malvern, PA 19355
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by rkhusky »

Bud wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 am auto exchanges were the feature I most used on the old platform and now it isn't available. This is a major frustration and also has me wondering if it is worth it to stay w Vanguard.

Personally I would sweep all distribution to my MM account, then auto invest from the MM to different mutual funds. This was easy to track, easy to maintain, easy to adjust as needed.

I wonder if there is a way to get this feature back. What be the best venue to ask for this feature to be added?
You can auto-invest and pull money from the settlement account.
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Re: Why doesn't Vg allow automatic exchange between funds?

Post by Pacific »

rkhusky wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:20 am
Bud wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:19 am auto exchanges were the feature I most used on the old platform and now it isn't available. This is a major frustration and also has me wondering if it is worth it to stay w Vanguard.

Personally I would sweep all distribution to my MM account, then auto invest from the MM to different mutual funds. This was easy to track, easy to maintain, easy to adjust as needed.

I wonder if there is a way to get this feature back. What be the best venue to ask for this feature to be added?
You can auto-invest and pull money from the settlement account.
Correct, but you cannot automatically "sell" to move money from a MF (that's "mutual fund" :D ) to your settlement fund (so that there is enough $$ in your settlement fund to automatically invest into a different MF in the same account).
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