Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house - UPDATE 2

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psteinx
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Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by psteinx »

You're making things confusing, not only for folks trying to help you on this board, but also for yourself, and the folks at the HVAC contractor.

The basic issue seems to be that the A/C is not blowing cold. Not "blowing too little cold", but basically not blowing cold at all. You don't need a bigger A/C (necessarily), you need a WORKING A/C.

Stop with the band-aids that don't address the problem.

Measure the cold air blowing out. As others have said, it should be substantially colder than the ambient air temperature. If it is not cold at all, then all the insulation and window fans in the world won't do much.

Don't make it complicated for the HVAC receptionist - she's not an expert.

Simple dialog:

I had an A/C installed by you guys less than a year ago. I measured and it appears the supply air is only 10 degrees below ambient air. This seems inadequate. There may also be airflow issues. I'd like to have a technician come out and diagnose the problem.

(Don't insist on a new or upgraded unit, yet. Again, you're getting ahead of yourself. Walk through the problem logically, one step at a time.)

Technician should then come (in days, not months), measure, assess, fix and report. Changing an air filter or blowing a little dirt off the compressor is unlikely to be a sufficient fix to an A/C that is not blowing cold at all, or only ~5 degrees below ambient.

===

Alternatively, you seem to be struggling with the issues involved. Do you have, perhaps, a handy relative or friend who can come over, and do a little light assessment themselves, and help guide you? Not an HVAC expert, but rather, I'd venture most homeowners who've had A/C for years should be somewhat helpful. Not to be overly sexist, but a male homeowner with a college education or otherwise bright/handy, aged 32-70, would be perhaps most likely to be useful (not excluding others who might be helpful). They could hopefully hold your hand through the process of addressing this.
Last edited by psteinx on Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bloom2708
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950’s house

Post by bloom2708 »

Malum Prohibitum wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:04 am I have long been of the opinion that a 2 story house must have two separate units, one for upstairs, and one for downstairs.
+1

All other solutions are sub optimal.

Cold air sinks. It should come from the ceiling of the bedrooms on the top level.

Most houses are trying to push cold air up to floor vents in the bedrooms upstairs. The cold air has a hard time getting up there, stays along the floor and then sinks back down the stairs.

Our house built in 1998 does this. Only 1 system. AC in the basement, floor vents. We close all the basement vents and partially close a few on the main floor. The cold air just doesn't like it upstairs and returns to the basement. :(
UnLearnYourself
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by UnLearnYourself »

How is the upstairs constructed? Do you have sloped walls? (ie 4' tall kneewall + ~ 6'+ slope leading to a small overhead 'attic' thats 4-6' wide?)

My immediate thought goes to insulation
Topic Author
Lynette
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

psteinx wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:42 pm You're making things confusing, not only for folks trying to help you on this board, but also for yourself, and the folks at the HVAC contractor.

The basic issue seems to be that the A/C is not blowing cold. Not "blowing too little cold", but basically not blowing cold at all. You don't need a bigger A/C (necessarily), you need a WORKING A/C.

Stop with the band-aids that don't address the problem.

Measure the cold air blowing out. As others have said, it should be substantially colder than the ambient air temperature. If it is not cold at all, then all the insulation and window fans in the world won't do much.

Don't make it complicated for the HVAC receptionist - she's not an expert.

Simple dialog:

I had an A/C installed by you guys less than a year ago. I measured and it appears the supply air is only 10 degrees below ambient air. This seems inadequate. There may also be airflow issues. I'd like to have a technician come out and diagnose the problem.

(Don't insist on a new or upgraded unit, yet. Again, you're getting ahead of yourself. Walk through the problem logically, one step at a time.)

Technician should then come (in days, not months), measure, assess, fix and report. Changing an air filter or blowing a little dirt off the compressor is unlikely to be a sufficient fix to an A/C that is not blowing cold at all, or only ~5 degrees below ambient.

===

Alternatively, you seem to be struggling with the issues involved. Do you have, perhaps, a handy relative or friend who can come over, and do a little light assessment themselves, and help guide you? Not an HVAC expert, but rather, I'd venture most homeowners who've had A/C for years should be somewhat helpful. Not to be overly sexist, but a male homeowner with a college education or otherwise bright/handy, aged 32-70, would be perhaps most likely to be useful (not excluding others who might be helpful). They could hopefully hold your hand through the process of addressing this.
Lol :) Thanks. I have a male sexist neighbor who does not like air conditioning. He has two Walmart type blower on each side of his house in the evening. During the day he sits on his shaded porch with his cat on the other chairl Thanks.
Topic Author
Lynette
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

UnLearnYourself wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:28 pm How is the upstairs constructed? Do you have sloped walls? (ie 4' tall kneewall + ~ 6'+ slope leading to a small overhead 'attic' thats 4-6' wide?)

My immediate thought goes to insulation
Yes. My house is a bungalow. This description sound exactly correct. The guys seem to have done a really professional job today and my house feels cooler even though the thermostat does not reflect this.
random_walker_77
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by random_walker_77 »

Lynette wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:32 pm
Bedroom 1 - closest to Air Conditioner
Supply - 57 Outlet - 68
Bathroom ( Between Bedroom 1 and 2)
Supply 57 No outlet
Bedroom 2
Supply 59 Outlet 67
Living Room
Supply 1 57 Outlet 67
Supply 2 57
Dining Room - off Bathroom, Living Room, Passage to Bedrooms and Kitchen
Supply 58 Outlet 69
Kitchen
Supply 58 No visible outlet

Stairs
Supply 69 - No visible outlet

Bathroom Upstairs
Supply 86 - Blocked - Fan
Bedroom Upstairs
Supply 1 - 68
Supply 2 - on other side of room 76
Dual outlet on same side as Supply 1 - 76
I think you've got supply and outlet reversed, but no matter. Downstairs, the room temp air going into the system is 67-69, and the air coming out of the system is 57-59. So your system is working and unquestionably generating cold air. The temperature differential is only about 10-11 degrees, which seems too small of a difference. The tech should check that out.

Upstairs, you're getting cold air (68-69) in a couple places, and the room air temp is otherwise 86? Something is wrong here as the air coming out of the system is coming from the same place as downstairs and ought to be the same ~58 degrees everywhere. In practice, the air could warm up as it makes its way through the ducts to the 2nd floor. Or maybe a duct got disconnected somewhere and is now just a hose to the attic. Sometimes, flexible ducts can collapse and pinch off the airflow.

You need someone to look at
1) why the air temperature differential on air going in vs coming out of the system is only 10 degrees, and not 15-20 degrees.
2) what's going on w/ the ductwork to the 2nd floor such that the cold air coming out of the system isn't very cold.
3) whether the air flow rate is lower than it ought to be. There ought to be a certain volume of air moving through the ducts, and maybe that's also a problem.

Good luck!
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illumination
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

Assuming you are measuring everything correctly, it really looks like to me your unit has something like an incorrect refrigerant charge. It might be leaking somewhere or they might have charged it incorrectly. Before and after the unit, it should show a 15-20 degree drop. Instead its like 11 degrees.

It's disturbing though how the company is responding, its pretty clear they intend to stonewall you. This is pretty "textbook" trouble shooting, I'm floored a "reputable" company would go this far to not address an obvious problem. I would insist on speaking with a manager and for them come out an take a look. I would just make sure you give the impression you're willing escalate things if they don't make it right.

If you're not willing to engage them, get another company out there to fix it, at least you won't be surrounded by portable AC units and window fans. Literally, a pound of refrigerant could be the difference between this working properly or not. A $150 service could be all it takes to fix this.

Just to give you a reference, I had a new unit installed almost 1 year ago and I took a few measurements. The thermostat is set for 77 degrees. The intake is 76 degrees, the output is 55 degrees. The current outside temperature is 101 degrees. It's only been running for a few minutes. This is how it "should" be with your unit.
Topic Author
Lynette
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

illumination wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm Assuming you are measuring everything correctly, it really looks like to me your unit has something like an incorrect refrigerant charge. It might be leaking somewhere or they might have charged it incorrectly. Before and after the unit, it should show a 15-20 degree drop. Instead its like 11 degrees.

It's disturbing though how the company's is responding, its pretty clear they intend to stonewall you. This is pretty "textbook" trouble shooting, I'm floored a "reputable" company would go this far to not address an obvious problem. I would insist on speaking with a manager and for them come out an take a look. I would just make sure you give the impression you're willing escalate things if they don't make it right.

If you're not willing to engage them, get another company out there to fix it, at least you won't be surrounded by portable AC units and window fans.
I am sorry if I giving the incorrect impression about the company. I wanted the manager to coordinate the effort and not have technicians give me the run-around. The manager just called me from a customer and told me that he wanted to understand the issue. He told me that he agreed with the receptionist that I should shut everything down and let the A/C do its thing. He said that it appeared as if the air-conditioning unit is not working correctly. He agreed that it was better to have 72 than 68 as the target temperature on these hot days. He said that if the target temperature on the thermostat was 72, the actual temperature should display that. He is going back to the office to look at the history of the unit. Further he said that he had replaced the old unit with a new one of the same capacity that was more efficient. He said the we will deal with the upstairs once the unit is working correctly.

Thanks to everyone.

Lynette
tibbitts
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

illumination wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm Assuming you are measuring everything correctly, it really looks like to me your unit has something like an incorrect refrigerant charge. It might be leaking somewhere or they might have charged it incorrectly. Before and after the unit, it should show a 15-20 degree drop. Instead its like 11 degrees.

It's disturbing though how the company's is responding, its pretty clear they intend to stonewall you. This is pretty "textbook" trouble shooting, I'm floored a "reputable" company would go this far to not address an obvious problem. I would insist on speaking with a manager and for them come out an take a look. I would just make sure you give the impression you're willing escalate things if they don't make it right.

If you're not willing to engage them, get another company out there to fix it, at least you won't be surrounded by portable AC units and window fans. Literally, a pound of refrigerant could be the difference between this working properly or not. A $150 service could be all it takes to fix this.
Unfortunately I don't think the hvac company is being intentionally difficult there; it's just that unlike us they haven't been willing to do the equivalent of reading through many pages of back-and-forth to finally come to the conclusion that the system is broken. I've been guilty of the same thing at times as the OP is here: providing way, way too much conflicting and/or irrelevant information. And once you've got a huge hill to climb to get any kind of credibility back.

Regarding starting over with another company, I'm not sure it's at that point yet but I would qualify that to be a dealer handling the same brand of equipment, in case something turns out to be wrong that could be covered by a factory warranty. Some hvac warranties can be serviced by almost anybody while others are more closed ecosystems that really required an authorized dealer to handle warranty issues.

I'm not convinced that being undercharged is the most likely problem, but if it is it's likely that a leak is the actual issue, and not just a simple charge will be required for repair.
dbr
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

Just as a point of reference, our trigger point to even turn on air conditioning is 80F. Spaces then cool to mid 70's.

It is true that when nighttime temperatures drop into the low 70's and 60's then we benefit from that by running exhaust fans on the opposite side of the house and a window inlet where we are.

I do wish you good luck getting a proper installation running.
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illumination
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:19 pm
illumination wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:50 pm Assuming you are measuring everything correctly, it really looks like to me your unit has something like an incorrect refrigerant charge. It might be leaking somewhere or they might have charged it incorrectly. Before and after the unit, it should show a 15-20 degree drop. Instead its like 11 degrees.

It's disturbing though how the company's is responding, its pretty clear they intend to stonewall you. This is pretty "textbook" trouble shooting, I'm floored a "reputable" company would go this far to not address an obvious problem. I would insist on speaking with a manager and for them come out an take a look. I would just make sure you give the impression you're willing escalate things if they don't make it right.

If you're not willing to engage them, get another company out there to fix it, at least you won't be surrounded by portable AC units and window fans. Literally, a pound of refrigerant could be the difference between this working properly or not. A $150 service could be all it takes to fix this.
Unfortunately I don't think the hvac company is being intentionally difficult there; it's just that unlike us they haven't been willing to do the equivalent of reading through many pages of back-and-forth to finally come to the conclusion that the system is broken. I've been guilty of the same thing at times as the OP is here: providing way, way too much conflicting and/or irrelevant information. And once you've got a huge hill to climb to get any kind of credibility back.

Regarding starting over with another company, I'm not sure it's at that point yet but I would qualify that to be a dealer handling the same brand of equipment, in case something turns out to be wrong that could be covered by a factory warranty. Some hvac warranties can be serviced by almost anybody while others are more closed ecosystems that really required an authorized dealer to handle warranty issues.

I'm not convinced that being undercharged is the most likely problem, but if it is it's likely that a leak is the actual issue, and not just a simple charge will be required for repair.

I agree that there's a lot of confusion going on, but ASSUMING we are getting the right information here, it really seems like the company is purposely stonewalling. Taking her down the path of "re-insulating" the house because she cant get the house cool just really smacks to me of being dishonest. It's a pretty simple thing, you set your AC for a temp and eventually the house should hit that temp. It seems to not even get close to that. That should have been figured out pretty quickly.

But I think I'm just going to see my way out of this discussion. Just too much craziness and tail chasing. To me this is very simple to convey to the installer, but for whatever reason it has been made as complicated as possible. Hope the OP gets it resolved.
tibbitts
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

dbr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:21 pm Just as a point of reference, our trigger point to even turn on air conditioning is 80F. Spaces then cool to mid 70's.

It is true that when nighttime temperatures drop into the low 70's and 60's then we benefit from that by running exhaust fans on the opposite side of the house and a window inlet where we are.

I do wish you good luck getting a proper installation running.
A lot depends on humidity, and of course personal preference. I don't think most people where I live in the mid-south would be comfortable with the air conditioning set at 80 or higher most of the year but I'm sure some people would be. Certainly in the winter I know of people who leave the heat at 60 and when I was younger I even tried that. I usually have my air conditioning set at 77 during the day and 75 at night. In real life the temperatures in each area will be a little different and the thermostat location might not be the most reflective of the temperatures at the areas an occupant most cares about.
dbr
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:34 pm
dbr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:21 pm Just as a point of reference, our trigger point to even turn on air conditioning is 80F. Spaces then cool to mid 70's.

It is true that when nighttime temperatures drop into the low 70's and 60's then we benefit from that by running exhaust fans on the opposite side of the house and a window inlet where we are.

I do wish you good luck getting a proper installation running.
A lot depends on humidity, and of course personal preference. I don't think most people where I live in the mid-south would be comfortable with the air conditioning set at 80 or higher most of the year but I'm sure some people would be. Certainly in the winter I know of people who leave the heat at 60 and when I was younger I even tried that. I usually have my air conditioning set at 77 during the day and 75 at night. In real life the temperatures in each area will be a little different and the thermostat location might not be the most reflective of the temperatures at the areas an occupant most cares about.
Yes, our heat thermostat is in one of the warmest places in the house and the setting should not be taken as an indicator of profligate energy consumption. People who live in old houses will know what I mean. Our house cooling works the same way.

At risk of going completely off topic people, at least old coots like me, are reminded that we have personal thermostats as well. Get your thyroid function checked.

More on topic, Lynette, I am curious where your upstairs ducts in a bungalow are actually located. I would not imagine high on any walls.
Topic Author
Lynette
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

dbr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:37 pm More on topic, Lynette, I am curious where your upstairs ducts in a bungalow are actually located. I would not imagine high on any walls.
I am sorry if I have confused people. I initially asked for advice as I did not know what I was doing - and spending a lot of money needlessly.

dbr,

I assume you mean the vents at the end of the ductwork:

https://hometipsforwomen.com/hvac-registers-and-grilles

In my bungalow house, they are at the bottom of the room. They form part of the baseboard. Initially when I bought the house, they only had heating. When I installed air conditioning, I think it used the same ductwork.

On the topic of the HVAC, I think the initial technician was lazy but I may also have confused him. Now I have the manager co-ordinating the effort, I think he will resolve the issue.

Maybe we should close this thread. I will reopen it if I need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Lynette
dbr
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

Lynette wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:34 pm
dbr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:37 pm More on topic, Lynette, I am curious where your upstairs ducts in a bungalow are actually located. I would not imagine high on any walls.
I am sorry if I have confused people. I initially asked for advice as I did not know what I was doing - and spending a lot of money needlessly.

dbr,

I assume you mean the vents at the end of the ductwork:

https://hometipsforwomen.com/hvac-registers-and-grilles

In my bungalow house, they are at the bottom of the room. They form part of the baseboard. Initially when I bought the house, they only had heating. When I installed air conditioning, I think it used the same ductwork.

On the topic of the HVAC, I think the initial technician was lazy but I may also have confused him. Now I have the manager co-ordinating the effort, I think he will resolve the issue.

Maybe we should close this thread. I will reopen it if I need any further assistance.

Thanks,

Lynette
Thanks for the info on the ducts. That makes sense.
Topic Author
Lynette
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house - UPDATE

Post by Lynette »

Thanks to everyone who helped me. I submitted this question when I was trying to resolve the problem with the new AC in my 1950 bungalow. In the end, members helped me understand that it was an AC problem. Thanks.

My long-winded complaint to the customer produced results as I got a call from the manager. He wanted to make sure that the AC was working properly before we pursued further solutions. The technician was superb. He checked out everything thoroughly and helped me understand how everything worked.

The thermostat is working perfectly now but the upstairs of the bungalow is still too hot. I understand that the AC examines the air where it is placed on the lower floor. It is set at 72. On a recent day it was 82 outside and 82 upstairs. I have an appointment with the manager to get a quote on a mini-split.

In case anyone is interested, this is the finding of the technician.

Adjusted fan speed to the proper setting. Verified humidifier bypassdamper is closed. Verified furnace filter
is good. Cycled unit. Verifiedcondensing coil is clean. Opened 2 closed supply registers. Checked system pressures. Subcooling good at 13 degrees (10 degrees +/­ 3 degrees per manufacturer’s specifications).superheat good at 15 degrees with normal suction pressure for an outdoor ambient temperature of
71 degrees. The house was 78 degrees and dropped 2 degrees within 30 minutes of run time. Advised customer about heat load and how to properly setthe thermostat.

Customer would like to discuss with our sales department about supplemental cooling with a minisplit.

Thanks to everyone on Bogleheads for your help.

Lynette
adestefan
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house - UPDATE

Post by adestefan »

I think I read through most of the thread, but didn’t see what is probably the underlying root of the problem. There’s two things that need to happen with a forced air system. First, conditioned air has to get to the right spot. Second, the unconditioned air needs to be removed from the same spot. Most of the time the problem is the air returns to remove the unconditioned air. This also causes a bad balance of pressure in the system.

My guess is you have a very undersized air return path from the second floor to the air handler. This is a very common problem.

The mini split will fix the problem though in a more forceful way.
Topic Author
Lynette
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Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house - UPDATE 2

Post by Lynette »

I received a proposal from the HVAC company for a mini-split. Initially I was disappointed with their service but they have lived up to their reputation and seemed to have really fixed the problem with the A/C. I turned it up to 74 as the thermostat is in a hot area and it is cooling the shady areas too well.

The upstairs of the bunglow consists of a bedroom, bathroom, door, long closet, window that gets the sun and stairs. I do not close the door and the sales person felt that a 12,000 BTU was adequate to cool the whole area. As it is a bungalow, there is limited space for the air controller so we chose a floor unit.

This is the proposal:

Bryant Preferred Series 38MARBQ12AA3 Heat Pump 12,000 BTUs

Bryant Preferred Series Floor Console 40MBFQ12-3 Indoor Unit (Coil)

The price including installation is $5,000. I agreed to this and it will be installed on 1 September.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Lynette
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