Got married in his office? That's kind of hilarious! I guess kind of sad in a way lolZeno wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:17 am+1chazas wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:06 amHa! I did the same thing at age 40 after only a few years of biglaw partnership, moved far far away to a much less profitable job in a vacation destination. I ended up going back to biglaw in a middling partnership position where I remain to this day. It’s a dog-eat-dog life and I can’t wait to retire. Leaving for a while was a great experience life-wise, probably not the best career-wise, and I’ve never been sure if I really did the right thing. Not that it matters, we can only change what’s in the future, not in the past.Zeno wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:55 am I did something similar (though it wasn't declining a promotion).
At age 50 I walked away from a Big Law partnership in HCOL and decamped to a dramatically different (and certainly less lucrative) opportunity in remote LCOL. Perhaps it was a mid-life crisis; there likely is an element of truth to that in there somewhere. All I know is that I determined I was FI at that point and was tired of playing the game. I was tired of clients (getting them, keeping them, billing them), 60-hour weeks, people in suits filled with self importance, fights with partners over draws, and LinkedIn posts from colleagues in the form of "I am looking forward to speaking at the Society of [insert obscure reference] next Wednesday in San Antonio on [insert obscure legal topic] where I will be on a panel with the Governor."
And so on and so forth. So I walked. And now I live where there are more antelope than homo sapiens.
No regrets.
The way I look at it is that you were a decade smarter than I. I still remember when one of my partners got married in his office.
I don't miss interacting with my fellow homo sapiens, certainly those bearing suits, that much I know.
Hang in there and best of luck to you. You clearly appreciate what is important in life.
Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
A former boss retired at age 50 shortly after becoming my boss on promotion. I would not say that was refusing the promotion but it was certainly a case of Megacorp needed him more than he needed Megacorp. When I retired the same thing could be said.
I have known many people who stay away from management assignments. As a technical team project manager I always made it clear (politely) that team leader is not the same as being people's supervisor with all the bother implied. I have known a lot of people who would have no interest in managing a project rather than staying at the bench, in the field, or whatever. It isn't hard to make clear what you want and if you are valuable enough at what you do the rewards are not necessarily less. But that might depend on where you work.
I have known many people who stay away from management assignments. As a technical team project manager I always made it clear (politely) that team leader is not the same as being people's supervisor with all the bother implied. I have known a lot of people who would have no interest in managing a project rather than staying at the bench, in the field, or whatever. It isn't hard to make clear what you want and if you are valuable enough at what you do the rewards are not necessarily less. But that might depend on where you work.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Evening assuming being a manager is a pain, it seems very strange to me that a person would reject a promotion. Still, I guess it's not uncommon.JoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Middle management has always felt like a scam to me. You make a little more, or in some cases less, money than your direct reports but have magnitudes more stress. And if you were an IC that moved into management, there's a very real possibility of your skills/knowledge atrophying to the point where moving back to an equivalent IC role might not be possible.
The carrot of course is the big $$$ you can make if you get to upper management. In my experience at least, the majority of people in upper/executive management roles are "career" managers who have been on that track their entire lives. The ICs turns managers usually stay put in middle management, maybe topping out at a director level.
The carrot of course is the big $$$ you can make if you get to upper management. In my experience at least, the majority of people in upper/executive management roles are "career" managers who have been on that track their entire lives. The ICs turns managers usually stay put in middle management, maybe topping out at a director level.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Yes kinda. Boss was let go last fall and several people threw my name into the hat with former boss's boss who reported to the CTO of my employer. They did so without my knowledge. I then told anybody who asked that if directly asked if I wanted the job, my answer is no. And if told I had no choice then I would resign on the spot. This includes the person who eventually did take the job and who is a great boss!
1. Back then I had already decided that I would likely retire within 1-1.5 years
2. I didn't want the upper echelon visibility at this point in my career nor the stress that goes along with it. 10 years earlier, maybe. But not now.
Cheers
1. Back then I had already decided that I would likely retire within 1-1.5 years
2. I didn't want the upper echelon visibility at this point in my career nor the stress that goes along with it. 10 years earlier, maybe. But not now.
Cheers
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Not specifically turned down a promotion but I did retire from the Air Force at the highest level an enlisted person can get to. Spouse is also in the military (space force) and we have 2 young kids. The work life balance was way out of wack for the last few years. I took a job in the private sector for the same amount of money but much lower responsibility level, no management responsibility and over all a better situation for our family. There are days I do miss the higher level of authority to actually effect change but then I remember the high level of stress that came with it. I'm happy as a worker bee now and my family is in a better place. Ironically, we also make more money now then we ever did (thank you AF pension and VA disability). So win win.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Many techies went into tech because they like building things -- mechanical things, electrical things, software "things", or even buildings/roads/whatever. Eventually a promotion means going into management and then the job changes substantially. Now the job is dealing with people (who are building things ...) and spending lots of time in meetings and making and watching PowerPoint.mikejuss wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:47 amEvening assuming being a manager is a pain, it seems very strange to me that a person would reject a promotion. Still, I guess it's not uncommon.JoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
For techies who want to build things a "promotion" to a role where they don't get to do that anymore sounds horrible. If you like playing a musical instrument then getting "promoted" to a point where you don't do that any more and have to tell other people how to play sounds like a very bad idea. The techies have often SEEN older co-workers go into management so it isn't like they don't know what to expect.
It shouldn't be hugely strange that people don't want to move from doing something the like (building things) to doing something they don't want to do (going to lots of meetings, dealing with people problems, watching and making lots of PowerPoint). Right?
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
LinkedIn is becoming yet another social network and a marketing tool, which is a bummer IMHO. It should stick to its core business.Zeno wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:55 am I did something similar (though it wasn't declining a promotion).
At age 50 I walked away from a Big Law partnership in HCOL and decamped to a dramatically different (and certainly less lucrative) opportunity in remote LCOL. Perhaps it was a mid-life crisis; there likely is an element of truth to that in there somewhere. All I know is that I determined I was FI at that point and was tired of playing the game. I was tired of clients (getting them, keeping them, billing them), 60-hour weeks, people in suits filled with self importance, fights with partners over draws, and LinkedIn posts from colleagues in the form of "I am looking forward to speaking at the Society of [insert obscure reference] next Wednesday in San Antonio on [insert obscure legal topic] where I will be on a panel with the Governor."
And so on and so forth. So I walked. And now I live where there are more antelope than homo sapiens.
No regrets.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- squirrel1963
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
In the high tech field (FAANG like megacorps and just plain Corps) very often first line managers make less than engineers, and much less than principal engineersJoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
They also have more responsibility and have to put with "adult daycare" issues as someone else pointed out.
The other big problem is that they are viewed as being easily disposable like junior engineers, because basically it's an entry level job.
You only reap the rewards of management if you become a director level manager or even better VP but you really need to love it in my opinion, otherwise it's not worth it.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Me. I've been in the same role for 10 years in investment operations at a large mutual fund complex. The role above me makes about ~$25k more per year in total compensation, but is jam packed with meetings and unsatisfying performance management duties. Management is happy to let a high performer continue to do "grunt" work so as not to have to manage them closely. Just make sure you're indispensable to your team, in case your company needs to lay off employees so that you're not on the chopping block as you won't be a decision maker in this regard.
I started the thread below about this and received great feedback. My own opinion, is you need to let go of the mentality that you're a failure if you're not constantly leveling up / progressing. Life is not about career progression, it's a means to an end.
viewtopic.php?p=5199885#p5199885
I started the thread below about this and received great feedback. My own opinion, is you need to let go of the mentality that you're a failure if you're not constantly leveling up / progressing. Life is not about career progression, it's a means to an end.
viewtopic.php?p=5199885#p5199885
Last edited by Count of Notre Dame on Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
You hit the nail on the head. I was a software engineer and first and foremost I just loved writing code. I reluctantly took principal engineer role because it's the only way to have some influence of the software design and very often you actually get to invent brand new products. I also got to mentor junior engineers, something that surprisingly I turned out to be relatively good, but definitely it never came natural to me, and had to devote a disproportionate amount of effort.MarkRoulo wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:03 pmMany techies went into tech because they like building things -- mechanical things, electrical things, software "things", or even buildings/roads/whatever. Eventually a promotion means going into management and then the job changes substantially. Now the job is dealing with people (who are building things ...) and spending lots of time in meetings and making and watching PowerPoint.mikejuss wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:47 amEvening assuming being a manager is a pain, it seems very strange to me that a person would reject a promotion. Still, I guess it's not uncommon.JoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
For techies who want to build things a "promotion" to a role where they don't get to do that anymore sounds horrible. If you like playing a musical instrument then getting "promoted" to a point where you don't do that any more and have to tell other people how to play sounds like a very bad idea. The techies have often SEEN older co-workers go into management so it isn't like they don't know what to expect.
It shouldn't be hugely strange that people don't want to move from doing something the like (building things) to doing something they don't want to do (going to lots of meetings, dealing with people problems, watching and making lots of PowerPoint). Right?
I was always pushed to more senior roles but I was able to resist it because I just love writing code too much. I'm super happy at writing C code or C++ but having to deal with endless meetings, flow charts and power point is something I never liked.
A promotion to management would have been actually a demotion for me. I had (and still have) neither the inclination nor the skills for it. In many ways I am the prototype of a computer nerd, and a very large chunk of my former coworkers are also like me.
If you look at TV shows and movies you will see a rather colorful depiction of computer geeks and needs, but in many ways it is accurate. We just love building things, managing them not so much.
On the dollars side, I don't even think management is adeguately compensated unless you manage to become director or VP, otherwise a manager typically makes less money than a software engineer, and they are the first that high tech companies let go.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I was once offered a position from my boss because that person left and named me as a possible replacement. However, the position would be a promotion but would require a lot of travel and I already don't spend enough time with my family so I respectfully decline. I am already paid well enough. While I could always use more money, I don't want to lose time with the family.workingovertime wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:17 pm I'm at a point in my career where I feel that I make enough to sustain my lifestyle. My salary is also adequate to keep retirement on track.
I work in accounting, and it almost seems like an industry standard to keep promoting with experience. I, however, don't want more responsibilities, but I don't know how to go about expressing this. I always get very high performance evaluations and like to think that I also have a good reputation for my work ethic. My biggest concern is that they expect me to continue to promote because they consider me as an expected pipeline to support our growth - and if I express otherwise, they'll no longer value me as much because I no longer have that potential for the team.
Maybe I am overthinking. Has anyone ever tried to do the same? I'm curious to know how it went.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I have known a lot of computer engineers (sys admin, hardware, the gambit) who refuse to go into management. Some of them are just good engineers and it goes fine. Some are just ok engineers and end up laid off in their 50s. Some are good and end up laid off in their 50s anyway, but in a similar proportion to the management of the same age...mikejuss wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:47 amEvening assuming being a manager is a pain, it seems very strange to me that a person would reject a promotion. Still, I guess it's not uncommon.JoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I always say I want to be promoted at some point in the future but I don’t think I’m ready now to take on the extra responsibilities.
And I try to do just enough to be the average on the team. So there’s usually no pressure on me to move higher.
I’m not afraid of getting fired. If I want to make more money I should switch to another tech company as an IC and I get a fresh 4 year stock grant. The pay raise is only about 15% for one level of promotion but the expectation is a lot higher. Because of the 40% to 50% marginal tax rate in CA, it just doesn’t make sense at all.
And I try to do just enough to be the average on the team. So there’s usually no pressure on me to move higher.
I’m not afraid of getting fired. If I want to make more money I should switch to another tech company as an IC and I get a fresh 4 year stock grant. The pay raise is only about 15% for one level of promotion but the expectation is a lot higher. Because of the 40% to 50% marginal tax rate in CA, it just doesn’t make sense at all.
The sillier the market’s behavior, the greater the opportunity for the business like investor.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Forgive the aside, but I’ve been on LinkedIn for 17 years and don’t understand the point—isn’t that what it’s always been?squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:08 pm
LinkedIn is becoming yet another social network and a marketing tool, which is a bummer IMHO. It should stick to its core business.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Sure the main point is for you to show off your resume to perspective employers and to keep in touch with your network of connections.EddyB wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:26 pmForgive the aside, but I’ve been on LinkedIn for 17 years and don’t understand the point—isn’t that what it’s always been?squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:08 pm
LinkedIn is becoming yet another social network and a marketing tool, which is a bummer IMHO. It should stick to its core business.
I am referring to the increased use of Facebook-type of features like "likes" which are not relevant in my opinion and distract from the real purpose.
Another thing I dislike is the increased posting of political opinions which IMHO is simply unprofessional and I doubt help your marketability. Of course you don't have to make political posts or otherwise use these features, but it's annoying that LinkedIn uses this to attract more traffic.
At the beginning there was none of this stuff and Imho it was preferable.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Agree that you should strive for promotions; however, at our agency a senior advisor (IC) is at the same pay level as a branch chief. In order to jump to the next tier, you would have to be a division director which is at least 50% more work for 10% more pay.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
In my experience, being promoted changed what I did at work and the things I focused on, but I can't say it changed my work life balance one way or the other.
What is the disadvantage of accepting the promotion, and if you don't like the changes, consider changing employers? Staying at the same employer too long will lead to you being underpaid vs the market, especially if you are not accepting promotions.
What is the disadvantage of accepting the promotion, and if you don't like the changes, consider changing employers? Staying at the same employer too long will lead to you being underpaid vs the market, especially if you are not accepting promotions.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Yes I turned down promotions to another country and to another US city (both of which I was familiar with and had worked in) for quality of life reasons. Hard to say whether that was wise but it felt right at the time.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Twice I turned down promotions because they would involve cross-country moves. After 3 moves in 8 years, family said "enough is enough, we want to continue to put roots down in this community". After the 2nd decline, my manager warned me "you may not get asked again", which was fine with me.
As I was planning to retire early, I was told I was being considered for the next "level" up. Nothing definite, but I would be on a "short list" of candidates for a job that would have meant at 15-20% raise in both salary and bonus potential. But it would have meant 100% world-wide travel. Having already had corporate jobs that required up to 50% travel, it was not something I felt was worth it. I told my then manager (who fortunately understood work-life balance) to not put my name in for formal consideration.
As I was planning to retire early, I was told I was being considered for the next "level" up. Nothing definite, but I would be on a "short list" of candidates for a job that would have meant at 15-20% raise in both salary and bonus potential. But it would have meant 100% world-wide travel. Having already had corporate jobs that required up to 50% travel, it was not something I felt was worth it. I told my then manager (who fortunately understood work-life balance) to not put my name in for formal consideration.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Co-sign this 10,000 times. True everywhere I've seen in the federal government. In the private sector, they at least sometimes give you bags of money for it. In the federal government, you get maybe $20,000 extra tops if you're a long-term SES. Not a good value proposition.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I was a reporter and was offered editorship of a paper. Prestige, but probably only a 10-20 percent raise with 20 more hours of workweek. Also didn't want to commute to next county while my daughter was in local school. I was an aspiring novelist and needed my time.
Turned it down, and a few years after was able to become a full-time novelist. My goal was always more time, not more money. It still is and always will be.
Turned it down, and a few years after was able to become a full-time novelist. My goal was always more time, not more money. It still is and always will be.
I'm not smart enough to know, and I can't afford to guess.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Sometime ago I thought that staying away from management and turning down promotions was something that only geek engineers like me would do because we just like to write code and do not want to manage people.FrugalFed wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:41 amCo-sign this 10,000 times. True everywhere I've seen in the federal government. In the private sector, they at least sometimes give you bags of money for it. In the federal government, you get maybe $20,000 extra tops if you're a long-term SES. Not a good value proposition.
But I have slowly realized that this is actually fairly common. It makes perfect sense of course because while the specifics of a job will be very different and while some jobs have a clear technical career path, the work of managing projects is substantially identical and the work of managing people is of course exactly the same at a high level. Managing people is very difficult, it's a lot of responsibility and it's not sufficiently compensated. Some of the former managers made quite a bit less than me. Engineers are usually precious, they can be reassigned to other projects, first line managers are easily disposable and the turnover is huge also due to stress and responsability.
Also very often even people who stay in technical careers are happy with what they do, having more responsibilities is rewarding but it is a lot more work.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Yes. Recently, in fact. 7% increase in pay for what looks from here like a 30% increase in responsibilities is a no.
I found the reasons for refusing promotion difficult to finesse, so I was just polite, if straight about it. It went fine. My company is having enough problems with retention to second-guess an employee's career decisions!
I found the reasons for refusing promotion difficult to finesse, so I was just polite, if straight about it. It went fine. My company is having enough problems with retention to second-guess an employee's career decisions!
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I know someone who sought and was granted a demotion to get back to the work he liked and out of management. Public tech company. Has gone fine for him.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Yes, I was offered a middle management position with a significant responsibility and headache increase with no real authority and with no pay increase, but a possible (not in contract) end of year bonus of about 10-15% of salary. I was already experiencing significant burnout and was well compensated so it was an easy “No”.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
There is great virtue in "know thyself." Many so called opportunities are someone else's idea of an opportunity.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I did accounting for 30 years before retiring. I went from corporate accounting to being an accounting consultant but knew if I went back into corporate accounting I could make more money but work more hours so I was never motivated to do so and ended my career as a consultant.
Speaking for myself as a manager, my team members were varied with people who were very motivated to move up in the ranks to people who were fine where they were. From my perspective it didn't matter at all as long as they did the job as assigned well. Things are different in public accounting though for the first several years.
At the end of the day, you should do what is right for you. If you employer doesn't respect that, then go where they do.
Speaking for myself as a manager, my team members were varied with people who were very motivated to move up in the ranks to people who were fine where they were. From my perspective it didn't matter at all as long as they did the job as assigned well. Things are different in public accounting though for the first several years.
At the end of the day, you should do what is right for you. If you employer doesn't respect that, then go where they do.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I took a demotion after about 10 years in middle management.
I was at my old organization for 19 or 20 years when I decided to internally apply for a position that was a non-management position.
But I didn't stay in it for long. I ended up leaving after 6 months in that position. I found that a lot of the issues I was trying to avoid in management persisted in the new position. I guess the org was no longer for me.
I am much happier now that I have left the old org.
For you, it sounds like you like working for your current org, but don't necessarily want to move up the chain. I don't know how promotions work in your org. But you could just not apply for them and keep doing what you are doing. You don't actually have to tell anyone that you do not want to be promoted.
I was at my old organization for 19 or 20 years when I decided to internally apply for a position that was a non-management position.
But I didn't stay in it for long. I ended up leaving after 6 months in that position. I found that a lot of the issues I was trying to avoid in management persisted in the new position. I guess the org was no longer for me.
I am much happier now that I have left the old org.
For you, it sounds like you like working for your current org, but don't necessarily want to move up the chain. I don't know how promotions work in your org. But you could just not apply for them and keep doing what you are doing. You don't actually have to tell anyone that you do not want to be promoted.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I passed on an administration-track promotion to move up from my teaching position to an admin role in my school district. Would have led to an immediate 10% raise and, within 3 years, approximately 30% raise at a minimum.
Just didn’t need the money and the extra hours. Was starting a family and the time wasn’t right. That was 2012 and I haven’t regretted it for a minute.
Just didn’t need the money and the extra hours. Was starting a family and the time wasn’t right. That was 2012 and I haven’t regretted it for a minute.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I have done this a few times actually, because I knew in my heart it wasn't the right move for me.
When I was making $13 an hour years ago, I had a job offer come up to move from a Security Site Supervisor into a Scheduling Manager for a security company. I knew those managers worked crazy hours and were constantly managing scheduling issues throughout the day and night. I didn't even think on it, I graciously declined.
I had an opportunity to move from a Safety Improvement Coordinator role, into Supervision for a large manufacturing company. I've always wanted to be in a formal leadership role, but I knew that manufacturing was not the type of environment I wanted to work. They required Supervisors to come in early and stay late to overlap all three shifts for their teams, on top of all the drama the role might need to manage. There was again, no balance for these individuals. I left to get back into a white collar environment and have not looked back. In fact, the switch I made was probably the best to get me into an environment that I could see myself working in long term.
When I was making $13 an hour years ago, I had a job offer come up to move from a Security Site Supervisor into a Scheduling Manager for a security company. I knew those managers worked crazy hours and were constantly managing scheduling issues throughout the day and night. I didn't even think on it, I graciously declined.
I had an opportunity to move from a Safety Improvement Coordinator role, into Supervision for a large manufacturing company. I've always wanted to be in a formal leadership role, but I knew that manufacturing was not the type of environment I wanted to work. They required Supervisors to come in early and stay late to overlap all three shifts for their teams, on top of all the drama the role might need to manage. There was again, no balance for these individuals. I left to get back into a white collar environment and have not looked back. In fact, the switch I made was probably the best to get me into an environment that I could see myself working in long term.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I not just turned down a promotion but took a demotion.
About a year ago I posted on this board about feeling really burned out and wondering how to handle it. I spent a few months doing some introspection and concluded that the aspects of my job that were making me extremely unhappy were related to management. By nature I'm a "know the details, do it yourself" type of person and even after several years as a manager, I was never comfortable with delegation. I also really, really struggled with providing feedback on things that needed improvement and holding people accountable.
During winter I finally decided to try to take a step back. I had the conversations with my company in January that I wanted to return to an IC position. My management and organization were super accommodating (which I'm really grateful for), and I'm happy to say that for me, it has been night and day. Everything about work (heck even life) feels so much more enjoyable and better now. No plans to leave, retire, or anything now. Less money and less prestige but I don't really care. The burnout has been cured.
The best description of burnout that I've read is it is your body's response to hitting a perceived constraint and that something needs to change. For me it was trying to force a situation that I never felt comfortable in.
Looking back on it, I think deep down I always knew management wasn't for me. I think most people probably have a good feeling of whether they are cut out for it or not. And if then answer is "not"... I think there is a fair amount of virtue in accepting one's own limitations.
About a year ago I posted on this board about feeling really burned out and wondering how to handle it. I spent a few months doing some introspection and concluded that the aspects of my job that were making me extremely unhappy were related to management. By nature I'm a "know the details, do it yourself" type of person and even after several years as a manager, I was never comfortable with delegation. I also really, really struggled with providing feedback on things that needed improvement and holding people accountable.
During winter I finally decided to try to take a step back. I had the conversations with my company in January that I wanted to return to an IC position. My management and organization were super accommodating (which I'm really grateful for), and I'm happy to say that for me, it has been night and day. Everything about work (heck even life) feels so much more enjoyable and better now. No plans to leave, retire, or anything now. Less money and less prestige but I don't really care. The burnout has been cured.
The best description of burnout that I've read is it is your body's response to hitting a perceived constraint and that something needs to change. For me it was trying to force a situation that I never felt comfortable in.
Looking back on it, I think deep down I always knew management wasn't for me. I think most people probably have a good feeling of whether they are cut out for it or not. And if then answer is "not"... I think there is a fair amount of virtue in accepting one's own limitations.
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
My wife took a demotion in January. She was 4-months into a new job and performing really well, but it was taking over her life - 60hrs/week, a ton of travel, putting out fires every night... We were out of the state on Christmas Eve and her director called and asked her to get to the nearest airport ASAP and fly across the country. She said no and then a few days later called to quit. He begged her to stay; ultimately it resulted in a demotion to a lower tier (fintech sales position) with (in writing) a promise that she would never have to travel more than once in a month and that she would not be expected to respond (email, slack, phone) anytime ever after 5pm. It was ultimately ~25% paycut, but she's been a lot happier (generally). They've since hounded her about going into management, but she adamantly refuses.BHead94638 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:54 pm I not just turned down a promotion but took a demotion.
About a year ago I posted on this board about feeling really burned out and wondering how to handle it. I spent a few months doing some introspection and concluded that the aspects of my job that were making me extremely unhappy were related to management. By nature I'm a "know the details, do it yourself" type of person and even after several years as a manager, I was never comfortable with delegation. I also really, really struggled with providing feedback on things that needed improvement and holding people accountable.
During winter I finally decided to try to take a step back. I had the conversations with my company in January that I wanted to return to an IC position. My management and organization were super accommodating (which I'm really grateful for), and I'm happy to say that for me, it has been night and day. Everything about work (heck even life) feels so much more enjoyable and better now. No plans to leave, retire, or anything now. Less money and less prestige but I don't really care. The burnout has been cured.
The best description of burnout that I've read is it is your body's response to hitting a perceived constraint and that something needs to change. For me it was trying to force a situation that I never felt comfortable in.
Looking back on it, I think deep down I always knew management wasn't for me. I think most people probably have a good feeling of whether they are cut out for it or not.
The company she works for is notorious for being a grind. There is not a single person that she did new employee orientation with last September that is still with the company and there has been like 1/3 turnover on her team (of ~30) this year alone. It's a rocketship and they pay well, if you can deal with the nonsense. Despite less stress, she sees things ramping back up again (increasing quotas and she is asked to mentor a revolving door of new co-workers) and she was considering quitting again just a few weeks ago, and then they randomly gave her a chunk of immediately vested RSUs. She's the top performer on her team and it's like they can read her mind when she is getting unhappy. I doubt she's still there in a year and she will almost certainly be taking another paycut when she leaves.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Highly competent role players who keep learning and excelling but are satisfied in their role are gold. A good manager will value your position. Problems can crop up when longtime role players start making demands beyond what the market will bear for their responsibilities, but you sound like you are content. I would applaud it if it works for you.
And yes, in answer to your question.
And yes, in answer to your question.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I haven't kept up with all of the replies, but echo a couple questions/comments I saw posed that seem to be unanswered. For context, I'm a CPA and have spent a decent amount of time in both public accounting and industry roles (where I currently reside).workingovertime wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:17 pm I'm at a point in my career where I feel that I make enough to sustain my lifestyle. My salary is also adequate to keep retirement on track.
I work in accounting, and it almost seems like an industry standard to keep promoting with experience. I, however, don't want more responsibilities, but I don't know how to go about expressing this. I always get very high performance evaluations and like to think that I also have a good reputation for my work ethic. My biggest concern is that they expect me to continue to promote because they consider me as an expected pipeline to support our growth - and if I express otherwise, they'll no longer value me as much because I no longer have that potential for the team.
Maybe I am overthinking. Has anyone ever tried to do the same? I'm curious to know how it went.
Are you in public accounting? If by "expected pipeline" you mean upward pressure towards partner, there could be other avenues to pursue for a more niche role in the firm. At my prior firm (which is a regional firm, ~$50MM in revenue) I know people that are still managers that are in more technical roles, like IRC/GAAP research, quality review, etc. They have been at manager level for probably a decade at this point and are still going strong. I also know a lot of people have been at manager level on both tax, attestation, and general accounting services for a long time without admission to the partnership. Not everyone has the soft skills (nor desires) to go the partner route. And besides, firms are hurting for quality hires...don't know that they'd simply show you the door if you're a solid, dependable performer but want to avoid the grind of partner-level business development.
Beyond that, dip your toes into the industry side of things or interview at a competitor firm. In my area (Midwest), accounting manager roles (which is maybe 5-6 years of experience) are paying $120K++ base salaries, many of which also have solid bonus potential. Someone else mentioned earlier, but the demand for accountants is pretty intense right now.
Last edited by SubPar on Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
deleted - duplicate
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I'm a supervisor right now who doesn't get any extra for the extra work (10%? try 0%)...I'm on my way back down the ladder with the next position. Fortunately, the people I managed were SMEs, good at what they did, got along with their peers and we had fun. Nevertheless, I just don't want to do it. I'm an engineer and prefer that type of work without having to babysit....I did the same in my military career - was offered the chance to go past O-6 but after being on the staff of a 4 star I said 'no way' - talk about horrible life-work balance. However, the people who aspire to that can't not work all the time - they also tend to not need much sleep in general....plus the politics gets even more stressful as you go higher....they tend to thrive in that environment.FrugalFed wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:41 amCo-sign this 10,000 times. True everywhere I've seen in the federal government. In the private sector, they at least sometimes give you bags of money for it. In the federal government, you get maybe $20,000 extra tops if you're a long-term SES. Not a good value proposition.
To the OP - lots of great advice here - depends on what you want. We used to say 'Lt Col and cruise' - if you are happy and can meet your needs and the leadership environment allows for you to stay at a certain level while still contributing, then that might be the right balance for you. I've noticed over the years that what I thought was so important at work wasn't and it was the other experiences in my life that meant more in the end.
Best to you in your decision.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
Agree with much of this. I think Senior Director and up is where the comp starts to meet the "always on" expectation. Not that there's not freedom with all of the responsibility, but I have no problem saying no to things at my level (director) that I think would be frowned upon if I were higher in the org and pay structure. (For instance, a request from our sales VP for someone in my department to be on a 1 AM - 4 AM Eastern call in case a prospective client in India had questions. I declined to make myself available, as I am not paid enough to be on 24x7 call "just in case." I also did not want to set a precedent that this was a reasonable expectation. I am sure one of the VPs in our department was expected.)JoeJohnson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:57 amAbsolutely. The big money is in Director & particularly above in big corporations. Not just comp, but stocks, deferred comp, etc.
Taking on a management role might be worth the slog if you have the desire AND ability to progress higher.
For me, as others have mentioned, there is a concept of "enough" money. I'm well compensated as a maxed out IC. Little desire to manage people (2 examples on my team have made that perfectly clear). ZERO desire to go Director+ (Directors do little directing, they just deal with bigger numbers, too many hours....I don't need the money or loss of personal life). If I have no desire to move up past management, then there's no point to go to management.
I haven't had to have this conversation yet, but my manager will leave at some point. I plan to phrase it as a "not at this time" due to home life. One "not at this time" isn't a big deal. Two? That might become obvious.
Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
I was in Engineering/Tech in my previous life so not familiar with Accounting, but I am guessing that you are at or near the top of the technical ladder (e.g. Junior ==> Associate ==> Senior etc.).workingovertime wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:17 pm I'm at a point in my career where I feel that I make enough to sustain my lifestyle. My salary is also adequate to keep retirement on track.
I work in accounting, and it almost seems like an industry standard to keep promoting with experience.
I always get very high performance evaluations and like to think that I also have a good reputation for my work ethic.
Not sure how to read the "more responsibilities" part. Do you not want to manage people? Would you consider doing something different (e.g. different department, project management etc.) if opportunities exist? or just want to stay the course?I, however, don't want more responsibilities, but I don't know how to go about expressing this. My biggest concern is that they expect me to continue to promote because they consider me as an expected pipeline to support our growth - and if I express otherwise, they'll no longer value me as much because I no longer have that potential for the team.
I elected to go into business/tech project management instead of upper management in the later part of my career when I was fortunately offered the opportunities, telling my superior (we got along well) that I would enjoy the challenge of leading critical projects more than leading a day to day operational organization (I did). Once you figure out what you want, I think you can approach your management in a proper setting, keep an open mind, and discuss options.Maybe I am overthinking. Has anyone ever tried to do the same? I'm curious to know how it went.
John C. Bogle: "Never confuse genius with luck and a bull market".
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Re: Anyone ever explicitly refused promotion for better work-life-balance?
When I decided to leave my previous job, they gave me full time work from home status and a significant raise. I tried it for a month and then left completely.
Now at the current job, my salary is a little lower but I'm much happier.
1) Closer to family (different coast)
2) Lower taxes and cost of living mostly make up for pay cut
3) Grew up here and it feels more like home
4) Has a pension while the other had a 401k
5) More vacation days
I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how much more money I could be making. I have enough and I'm on track for a 45-50 early retirement. Even if I had to work longer than that, the job is bearable (even sometimes enjoyable) so it would not feel like a terrible burden.
But yes, I did feel like a failure for a period of time after that until I thought it through and came to terms.
Now at the current job, my salary is a little lower but I'm much happier.
1) Closer to family (different coast)
2) Lower taxes and cost of living mostly make up for pay cut
3) Grew up here and it feels more like home
4) Has a pension while the other had a 401k
5) More vacation days
I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how much more money I could be making. I have enough and I'm on track for a 45-50 early retirement. Even if I had to work longer than that, the job is bearable (even sometimes enjoyable) so it would not feel like a terrible burden.
But yes, I did feel like a failure for a period of time after that until I thought it through and came to terms.
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