Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
sean.mcgrath
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 am
Location: US in NL

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by sean.mcgrath »

peterinjapan wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:00 am Wow, a great article.

As an entrepreneur (started an anime-related business in 1996 and managed to keep it going ever since), I've often thought that this forum pooh-pooh'ed the benefits of having a company, either as a wealth-building vehicle or a cost-management entity (many of my out of pocket expenditures are covered by my company, such as Macs, iPhones and, since it's allowed under Japanese tax law, my personal autos). This helps my personal net worth grow, separate from the value of the company itself.
I'm not sure I've seen much of the pooh-poohing, although it does seem to me that small business owners / entrepreneurs are under-represented here (except for MDs). The Millionaire Next Door's basic premise is that becoming a small business owner is by far the best way to become wealthy, which is still true today: "the 1 percent’s income is being driven by owner-managers, mostly of small and medium-sized companies..." "The average company in the top 1 percent of income has $7 million in sales and 57 employees..."
User avatar
Helo80
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Unsophisticated Investor

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

bertilak wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:08 am
  • A surgeon charged me for an attending assistant which was not paid for by my insurance so he billed me directly. Turns out the "assistant" was medical student observing the operation. I said I was not going to pay for a medical student's education. This was all resolved over the phone. One wonders what he was teaching thus guy!


Yes, you were correct in contesting that and getting the charge off. To be fair though, it was likely a mistake by billing where the student's attendance was listed on the OR case as "assistance" and somebody mistook it for either resident or staff assistance.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
User avatar
Topic Author
JAZZISCOOL
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sat May 18, 2019 11:49 am
Location: Colorado - 5,700 ft.

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

Cubicle wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:30 pm Good article in that it has lead to good discussion.
I like this quote:

"The unexamined life is not worth living" and I suppose you can apply the "unexamined" part to a financial forum. I'm glad the WCI wrote the post to provide food for thought.

Remember that Rick Ferri recently interviewed the WCI on the Bogleheads on Investing Podcast for those who haven't heard it. I thought it was interesting. Thanks Rick!

Dr. Jim Dahle - Episode 19
Mar. 05, 2020

https://www.bogleheads.org/blog/portfol ... -podcasts/
User avatar
firebirdparts
Posts: 4414
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:21 pm
Location: Southern Appalachia

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by firebirdparts »

My opinion means nothing, but I will say that what I see as a glaring problem is people using phrases like "huge" "never" "very few" "no chance" "almost all" to describe all sorts of things that don't make much difference, and things that simply offer you a 50/50 chance of being lucky and unlucky. A 50/50 chance is just that. It's not "almost 100% certain gigantic failure." In general, there is a lot of "almost 100% certain gigantic failure" directed at people that do something that you wouldn't do, even if it's dull.

I'll give you sample from the Burt Malkiel thread yesterday: Please understand here the concept of a sample. It's one sample.
9-5 Suited wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:33 pm Dividend paying stocks like IBM in place of bonds? Man, I don’t know about this advice. How could it possibly be the case that anything other than total return matters? The uniqueness of dividends is mostly, if not entirely, an illusion. And anybody who reads that advice and buys single stocks to get the dividends is making a gigantic mistake.
Note the use of the word "gigantic" here at the end, and the lack on any probabilistic outcome. It's certain gigantic. They claim that Steve Bing jumped off a building yesterday. If that's a 10, I'm going to say owning a dividend stock can only make it to 1 if you say there aren't any zeros. To me it's absolutely a zero.
This time is the same
getthatmarshmallow
Posts: 1171
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:43 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

nanameg wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:02 am
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:26 pm
eagleeyes wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:11 pm He’s asking to be an informed consumer. I believe that to be fair and give kudos.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I gave the example of my experience to find the charge for a simply PC visit at a satellite FM clinic and even the billing person took a few minutes to track that information down. I did get it, but I can only relay that it was in a giant binder with I'm not even kidding, like size 6 font on an Excel spreadsheet like page.

Of course they said, "Just go through your insurance because it's cheaper that way" --- which I found odd because it normal world, it's better to have one in the bag than two in the bush when dealing with insurance companies and promises of payment. I was willing to pay up front, day of visit and I was told that would be more expensive than going thru insurance. (I'm not 100% sure that was true though because I later found out you get 20% off if you self-pay though who knows what insurance companies negotiated with the system).

Now, with COVID cases impacting hospital systems and patient pay getting slashed and/or 401k matching on hold in some major systems (if memory serves from news articles), it makes me wonder how much funny money is going on in the system.

Just to be clear --- not singling out WCI, but his claim that "Doctors are expensive" and we should just pay for whatever is charged... I hate to say it, but I don't see too many of y'all bending over when you go to car dealerships and buy new/used cars and/or take your car to the dealership to get routine maintenance done. There are a lot of people that watch their wallets at the car dealership, but apparently, we're not allowed to watch our wallets in medical building.

Disclaimer: I am not in the auto industry. i am no longer in the healthcare industry (by the grace of God)
The healthcare industry is probably as complex and opaque as the military industrial complex. Not long ago there were articles in the WSJ about how it was significantly different costs for the same medical procedure in the same region of the country. It’s a mess, no doubt about it and the government isn’t going to make it better.

Another huge part of the problem are the hospital administrators and their compensation. There are a lot of foxes guarding the henhouse throughout..not just the physicians.
Look, if doctors don't want patients to bargain, then they need to be able to tell them what code they're going to bill before it happens. If they can't do that, then they should expect just as much haggling as any other market without listed prices. If that's unreasonable, then it is unreasonable to treat medical care like another shopping trip. If car dealerships worked like this half the Boglehead shoppers here would wind up with bicycles and the other half with Teslas at the used Toyota lot.

And that's setting aside emergent situations where the patient can't doctor shop or ensure that the anesthesiologist is in network while they're crashing. We currently have a thread here with a guy a year and a half from retirement with four million in the bank who is being told not to retire because of healthcare. That's a broken system.

The rest of wci's list is pretty amusing.
User avatar
nedsaid
Posts: 19275
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:33 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by nedsaid »

space needle wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:29 pm Although I have learned some things here, and enjoy reading about many different financial situations, there is a whiff of conformity that is passed off as the best, most rational, time-tested solution. Any one questioning The One True Path can often find themselves ostracized as a heretic.

Often one hears advice like, "contribute regularly to a low cost index over decades, never market time, rarely look at the news, and you will be amazed at how rich you are in 40 years". This advice seems blind to some of the major convulsions we are experiencing, but any mention of these current realities is addressed by saying, "no, this time isn't different". I have found very little discussion of what might make the current realities different, and why an investor in 2020 faces different challenges, and may need different solutions, than an investor in 1970.

The Faith often seems Blind, with Bogle as a secular saint. I realize this is a Boglehead forum, but a little discussion of how / why we face a different world might be more useful. Otherwise, the advice can sound canned, and less than credible, considering the world in which we live. "Tune out the noise", can begin to sound like, "La,la,la, I can't hear you..."
The markets and the economy are dynamic. Never thought I would see the day of free trading. Never thought I would see the day when I could invest my money at Institutional rates. Never thought I would see the day of ZERO Index funds offered by Fidelity. The world has changed, and we as investors have to change with it. Yes, we do get too obsessed with conformity around here, it is a societal problem and not an issue confined to the Bogleheads forum.
A fool and his money are good for business.
rob65
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by rob65 »

The advice here is great during accumulation, but it is incredibly conservative about when someone can afford to retire. “We’re 70 with no kids, can live off our social security, and have $4 million in retirement accounts, can we retire?” is likely to be meet with advice to work a little longer. Okay, maybe exaggerating a little, but you get the idea. My advice on those types of questions is to post here, post at MMM, and then average the responses. No, don’t retire at 40 with 25x a bare bones budget; yes, retire at 65 with 25x a “travel and eat out as much as we want” budget.

Survivorship bias is real. People that die without ever taking the trip they had dreamed of for their whole life don’t post how they wish they had retired sooner.
RocketShipTech
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:08 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by RocketShipTech »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:40 amWe currently have a thread here with a guy a year and a half from retirement with four million in the bank who is being told not to retire because of healthcare. That's a broken system.
Sounds like another Boglehead sacred cow that needs to be slayed.
User avatar
firebirdparts
Posts: 4414
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:21 pm
Location: Southern Appalachia

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by firebirdparts »

space needle wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:29 pm Often one hears advice like, "contribute regularly to a low cost index over decades, never market time, rarely look at the news, and you will be amazed at how rich you are in 40 years". This advice seems blind to some of the major convulsions we are experiencing, but any mention of these current realities is addressed by saying, "no, this time isn't different". I have found very little discussion of what might make the current realities different, and why an investor in 2020 faces different challenges, and may need different solutions, than an investor in 1970.

The Faith often seems Blind, with Bogle as a secular saint. I realize this is a Boglehead forum, but a little discussion of how / why we face a different world might be more useful. Otherwise, the advice can sound canned, and less than credible, considering the world in which we live. "Tune out the noise", can begin to sound like, "La,la,la, I can't hear you..."
Bogleheads are right about this, and you'll just have to live with it. That whole "it seems like" thing is where they get you. Yes, I'm blind, but I'm not blinder than you are. Be cautious.

There are legitimate behavior problems that people are trying to address. If you can actually enumerate the behavioral problems, then sure, you can critique your own philosophy at that point. Things do change, but you don't want to catch yourself in an argument where all parties are presenting imaginary "facts" of the future. You don't win a prize for that.

It doesn't feel real good, but there's no cure for it.
This time is the same
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by JackoC »

grok87 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:04 am
McGilicutty wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?
nicely put.
i think the illiquidity premium is easier to see in bonds.
for example the spreads of corporate bonds can be split into:
total spread = "spread for default risk" + "spread for illiquidity"
or
"spread for illiquidity" = total spread - "spread for default risk"

the argument is that, historically the "total spread" has been larger than the actual default costs. so historically there has been a positive illiquidity premium.
True, fixed income is IMO one place where it's really useful for retail investors to think about liquidity premium in the true sense. Some of the comments and maybe original statement in the article about 'too much emphasis on liquidity' seem to mean 'too much cash', not really the same.

Besides things like corporate bonds where there's a mix of credit and liquidity premium, there's big liquidity premia in some essentially US govt debt. Best yielding 5 yr CD's still near 2% yield, the 5 yr note 0.33%. I would argue some of that is just free money (considering 95% or whatever of CD's will always be well below the best rate CD's, despite there being no meaningful liquidity or credit risk difference between lousy rate CD's and top rate ones) or perhaps to be viewed as high rate of compensation to deal with a slightly more difficult small credit union, etc. (if one's hackles are raised too much by suggestion there's ever a 'free lunch'). But a lot of that difference, 2% CD v 0.33% treasury, is liquidity premium. There is no meaningful credit risk difference IMO between FDIC/NCUA deposits and treasuries. I do think it's actually common on this forum for people to fail to realize that just because they might 'rebalance' from fixed income to stocks doesn't mean *all* of their fixed income should be subject to the huge yield deficit in treasuries due to liquidity preference, especially lately. Any plausible amount of rebalancing would involve a fraction of their fixed income. The huge yield deficit in treasuries v best CD's is caused by all the professional market players who actually need that liquidity on every $ of their treasury position (nor can they feasibly pile into the CD market anyway).

Even TIPS and agency issues often give a significant liquidity premium over treasuries with no or very little additional credit risk respectively.

Actually one and a half area's. Investing some money in direct real estate is commonly feasible for retail investors, and you can expect to reap some illiquidity premium there also. But, there are also plenty of good reasons not to get involved in rental RE in many retail investors' situations.

When it comes to private equity I think it's a more theoretical discussion, unless there were more opportunities to invest in it at typical retail scale without excessive fees. Also in the equity sphere there might be some argument for very small cap stock tilt to reap liquidity premium; pretty unenthusiastic about that myself but worth mentioning. But thinking more about the actual benefit v yield penalty of US treasury liquidity v other forms of US backed debt is something many people could benefit from IMO.
User avatar
Rowan Oak
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:11 pm
Location: Yoknapatawpha

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Rowan Oak »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:47 pm Agreed.
#6 & #7
Entrepreneurs and Real Estate businessman are underrepresented.

But, MMM and “Bigger Pockets” is a mine field with quicksand and cow dung, and hair brain schemes and myths, amidst the jewels of real life success and mature business wisdom. Bogleheads is a zillion times better.

It’s the overall financial and life sensibilities that put the “BogleHeads forum in best light.

j🌺
+1
“If you can get good at destroying your own wrong ideas, that is a great gift.” – Charlie Munger
Horton
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Horton »

This thread reminds me of one of those “reply all” email chains at work - you know, the one where everyone keeps replying “please stop replying!” :D
80% global equities (faith-based tilt) + 20% TIPS (LDI)
carolinaman
Posts: 5463
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:56 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by carolinaman »

A great article by WCI. I have observed many of the things he mentions and I think some are guilty as charged. We do have people with very narrow points of view. Conversely, we have a lot of smart people who can advise or provide insight on a wide array of matters. I read the forum everyday and get a lot of value from it.
rascott
Posts: 2957
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:53 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by rascott »

index245 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:25 pm
Clever_Username wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:46 pm #6 sounds like something I may have said. I didn't click the link (edit: in the article, which I now see doesn't link to this forum, so it wasn't me saying it), it might well have been.

#10 is only half right. MMM is not the devil.

I'll read the article more carefully later and carefully consider it. I find WCI very worth reading, even though I'm not the kind of doctor his posts are typically aimed at.
Dave Ramsey helps a lot of people who are buried in debt (credit card, student loan, etc.) and literally have no where to start. I've listened to the program...I'm often amazed people need to be taught how to get out of debt, make a budget, live within their means, increase revenue (ie income), but that is the case. And they listen to him.

The investing advice is more of an afterthought for those who have succeeded in getting out of debt. Mostly bad advice, but not the end of the world. Stock mutual funds can make you some money, even with the fees. The funds with loads are gross. I think advising that all people go 100% stocks is horrible, given the range in risk tolerance. Many people (on this board too) also prefer to pay of a mortgage.

I have no issues with him making money on book sales, websites, courses, etc. He never says that they are purely humanitarian and non-profit. He is quite forthcoming that his goal is to make a profit.

I agree with #10 in the list

Yeah Ramsey does say 100% stocks.... but recall how he gets there. First zero debt except mortgage. Then 15% of income into retirement accounts. Then fully pay off the home.... only when totally debt free including house..... go back to saving everything in equity mutual funds (or fully paid for rental property).


When looked holistically..... that's still a fairly conservative approach. If you have literally no debt and a paid for house, your monthly expenses get fairly small in ratio to what you are likely saving in equity funds.
Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Jags4186 »

I love when doctors complain about patients complaining about the bill.

Doctors make a lot of money. A lot more money than doctors in other peer countries. That to me says there’s lots of margin in all of their services. Which means there’s plenty of room to negotiate.

My quick google search shows the average doctor salary in the US is $294,000/yr. The average doctor salary in the UK is about $145k. Even if medical school in the US costs $300k and is free in the UK it’s a pretty good ROI.
AlexanderTheMediocre
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AlexanderTheMediocre »

I see this WCI article as just casting about for content - essentially clickbait. He's a blogger, what do you expect, gotta drive views! Anyone who spends lots of time on Bogleheads (most likely including WCI, who posts frequently) knows that many of the points the post is making are not really true in practice:

#2 - I see all kinds of acceptance of alternative approaches to the 3 fund portfolio on BH. 3 fund is an easy marketing scheme that won't lead you wrong.

#3 - I have seen plenty of advice in investment threads that recommend career development and advancement over optimization.

#5 - Haven't seen this be a major issue - there's really not that much quibbling at the low end in threads that I've seen and I read a lot of them.

#10 - This is straight up wrong - there are a few people who poo poo MMM's choices, but few Bogleheads quibble over general frugality. Ramsey is recommended quite often for those threads where people have significant consumer debt.
ncbill
Posts: 2053
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Western NC

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by ncbill »

Big Dog wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:32 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
I would hope BogleHeads include an Uninsured (and Underinsured) Motorists Bodily Injury rider on their auto policy.....
$500k worth of Combined Uninsured and Underinsured Motorists coverage here but are BHs sure that covers "balance billing" from an out-of-network provider?
User avatar
corn18
Posts: 2867
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:24 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by corn18 »

He should have included #11: They will berate, belittle and bash anyone who wants to buy a $5k watch or any car other than a Camry.
Consistently sets low goals and fails to achieve them.
AZAttorney11
Posts: 895
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:12 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AZAttorney11 »

corn18 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:26 am He should have included #11: They will berate, belittle and bash anyone who wants to buy a $5k watch or any car other than a Camry.
And some will recommend a Tesla no matter what.
RSIdaho
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:54 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by RSIdaho »

I agree with some of his points, it seems there is a difference in the Boglehead doctrine and what Bogleheads actually do in practice. I would include myself in that.

Regarding number 10, when it comes to DR, there is a lot I like about him helping people get out of debt, but I would not take investment advice from him. Also, I got a great spreadsheet from the MMM site, it is a great planning tool for taxes, and I have used it to plan different Roth Conversion scenarios.
User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:29 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 8foot7 »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am I love when doctors complain about patients complaining about the bill.

Doctors make a lot of money. A lot more money than doctors in other peer countries. That to me says there’s lots of margin in all of their services. Which means there’s plenty of room to negotiate.

My quick google search shows the average doctor salary in the US is $294,000/yr. The average doctor salary in the UK is about $145k. Even if medical school in the US costs $300k and is free in the UK it’s a pretty good ROI.
+1. Anesthesiologists making a half million dollars a year hiding behind "I'm just an employee" and "I don't know prices" but "you ought to pay your bill" even when they're unavoidably out of network in a hospital even if the hospital and all other staff are in network. My favorite is when a second anesthetist sends a bill for a "consult" that happened in the middle of surgery. You never even had a chance. It's a bad look, a real bad one.

Great piece in The Atlantic on this phenomenon. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... rk/606391/
Last edited by 8foot7 on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mrmass
Posts: 1523
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:35 pm
Location: MA

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by mrmass »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:53 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:47 pm Agreed.
#6 & #7
Entrepreneurs and Real Estate businessman are underrepresented.

But, MMM and “Bigger Pockets” is a mine field with quicksand and cow dung, and hair brain schemes and myths, amidst the jewels of real life success and mature business wisdom. Bogleheads is a zillion times better.

It’s the overall financial and life sensibilities that put the “BogleHeads forum in best light.

j🌺
I glanced at Bigger Pockets a few months ago and was wildly unimpressed. It seems like there are lots of snakes in the grass ready to strike. Perhaps the best thing about Bogleheads is the commercial-free zone it provides.
Drop shipping schemes come to mind.
deltaneutral83
Posts: 2455
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:25 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by deltaneutral83 »

corn18 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:26 am He should have included #11: They will berate, belittle and bash anyone who wants to buy a $5k watch or any car other than a used Camry.
Fixed it for you!

I enjoyed the article. I do wish we had two different additional forums, one for high rollers, and one for "alternative" strategies like single stocks, market timing, gold, shorting the market, options, etc. etc.
Last edited by deltaneutral83 on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
ignition
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by ignition »

space needle wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:29 pm Although I have learned some things here, and enjoy reading about many different financial situations, there is a whiff of conformity that is passed off as the best, most rational, time-tested solution. Any one questioning The One True Path can often find themselves ostracized as a heretic.

Often one hears advice like, "contribute regularly to a low cost index over decades, never market time, rarely look at the news, and you will be amazed at how rich you are in 40 years". This advice seems blind to some of the major convulsions we are experiencing, but any mention of these current realities is addressed by saying, "no, this time isn't different". I have found very little discussion of what might make the current realities different, and why an investor in 2020 faces different challenges, and may need different solutions, than an investor in 1970.

The Faith often seems Blind, with Bogle as a secular saint. I realize this is a Boglehead forum, but a little discussion of how / why we face a different world might be more useful. Otherwise, the advice can sound canned, and less than credible, considering the world in which we live. "Tune out the noise", can begin to sound like, "La,la,la, I can't hear you..."
There is not much discussion because no one knows what the future will be like. No one knows what's going to happen with certainty, let alone knowing how it will affect their portfolio's even if something happens as they predicted. In the end you have to make a bet on which future is most likely. Will we continue to muddle through with ever higher stock markets like we have in the past 150 years? Who knows. I'm betting we will but I could be wrong.
jajlrajrf
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:15 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by jajlrajrf »

I thought it was a reasonable article.

I don't think the boglehead forum has a "problem", but there are a few things I keep in mind when I read and post here. If I was going to enumerate the ones that WCI didn't hit, they would be these:

1. The overall risk tolerance of board members seems extremely low. This isn't "bad" or "good", and makes sense when you think of the cohort, but sometimes based on reactions here, you'd think that someone who put 0.01% of their assets into an individual stock pick was riding a jet rocket, naked, over the grand canyon while drinking bleach mixed with nitroglycerine. We all probably agree that index fund investing is the right choice for the lion's share of our money, but that doesn't mean that you can't do other things with some of your money, too! Instead of jumping straight to "THAT'S TERRIBLE" in response to a non-three-fund allocation, maybe probe a little bit about the poster's risk tolerance first?

2. There's an anti-international bent (at least on the US investors forum) here that is primarily political in nature. To be clear, there are plenty of people here who avoid international investments because they have a perfectly rational analysis that leads them to that conclusion, and if you feel yourself getting angry reading this paragraph I assure you that you, dear reader, are absolutely one of those geniuses. But there's also a set of folks here who are just...clearly nativist, and don't like those darn furriners. Whenever I read an international-focused thread, I keep that firmly in mind, and discount the opinions offered appropriately.

3. I'm an index fund investor because I think it gives me the best results with the least amount of effort. I don't particularly think that Jack Bogle was a literal saint (although I'm sure he was a very nice person), and I sometimes roll my eyes when people start quoting "scripture" to win arguments here. Investment is a living, ongoing activity. Things Bogle wrote may be useful or not useful, but the cult-of-personality arguments creep me out.
Normchad
Posts: 5648
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Normchad »

Dave Ramsay and MMM are fine for what they are. I think what upsets a lot of people is that are disingenuous or dishonest in their presentation. MMM portrays himself as a guy who retired very young and makes it all work by R.I. g super frugal. Then it comes out that he makes $400K/yr from his website. So he’s not retired......

Dave Ramsay makes most of his money from his books, shows, and trusted circle of advisors. He’s not getting rich by following the advice he dispenses.

None of these are capital crimes, but this is bogleheads.

And our patron saint Jack didn’t do this stuff. He told us how to get rich. He built a company to help us do that. And he never did anything that undermined our faith in that. He could have been a mega billionaire, but he chose not to. He walked the walk.

And most of the venerated posters on here are the same way. The advice they give is genuine, and is based on what they did and how they succeeded. There doesn’t seem to be an agenda or angle from any of them.

Klangfool is one of my favorite posters, but also one of the most blunt and abrasive. His postings are very consistent over time, and the challenges are always intended to benefit the person being challenged. His frequent advise to plan unexpectedly lose your job at some point; that benefitted a lot of people recently.

This is why BH is a million times better than other sites. We don’t all agree. Some are jerks. Some don’t like the consensus here.

But everything is genuine.
ignition
Posts: 366
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by ignition »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:47 am Dave Ramsay and MMM are fine for what they are. I think what upsets a lot of people is that are disingenuous or dishonest in their presentation. MMM portrays himself as a guy who retired very young and makes it all work by R.I. g super frugal. Then it comes out that he makes $400K/yr from his website. So he’s not retired......
I don't think MMM is disingenuous/dishonest. He's pretty open that he earns a lot of money from his site.
User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:29 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 8foot7 »

ignition wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:58 am
Normchad wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:47 am Dave Ramsay and MMM are fine for what they are. I think what upsets a lot of people is that are disingenuous or dishonest in their presentation. MMM portrays himself as a guy who retired very young and makes it all work by R.I. g super frugal. Then it comes out that he makes $400K/yr from his website. So he’s not retired......
I don't think MMM is disingenuous/dishonest. He's pretty open that he earns a lot of money from his site.
Yeah, but "I am retired and spend $17,500 a year" and "ignore this blog making nine times the median income of the US" and "oh and I also bought and built out a cool coworking space in downtown Longmont and run it as a business" aren't super congruous, if you know what I mean. Not to mention the "oh by the way I bought 20k of Tesla stock back in October and SURPRISE it tripled so I just sold it AND YOU SHOULD NEVER DO THIS but also you should ride a bike with a trailer to pick up groceries and spend no more than $4/week on breakfast oats" - it might not be disingenuous or dishonest but it's close.
Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Jags4186 »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:35 am
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am I love when doctors complain about patients complaining about the bill.

Doctors make a lot of money. A lot more money than doctors in other peer countries. That to me says there’s lots of margin in all of their services. Which means there’s plenty of room to negotiate.

My quick google search shows the average doctor salary in the US is $294,000/yr. The average doctor salary in the UK is about $145k. Even if medical school in the US costs $300k and is free in the UK it’s a pretty good ROI.
+1. Anesthesiologists making a half million dollars a year hiding behind "I'm just an employee" and "I don't know prices" but "you ought to pay your bill" even when they're unavoidably out of network in a hospital even if the hospital and all other staff are in network. My favorite is when a second anesthetist sends a bill for a "consult" that happened in the middle of surgery. You never even had a chance. It's a bad look, a real bad one.

Great piece in The Atlantic on this phenomenon. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... rk/606391/
Correct!

If they are an employee, why would they care if you try to negotiate? That's like saying the receptionist at Microsoft cares if Microsoft gives a discount on Office to a customer.

If they are a business owner, I wonder how often they hire services that will only tell them the cost after rendering the service and regardless of whether or not the service produced the desired result.
User avatar
Rowan Oak
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:11 pm
Location: Yoknapatawpha

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Rowan Oak »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:47 am Dave Ramsay and MMM are fine for what they are. I think what upsets a lot of people is that are disingenuous or dishonest in their presentation. MMM portrays himself as a guy who retired very young and makes it all work by R.I. g super frugal. Then it comes out that he makes $400K/yr from his website.
Mr Money Mustache (MMM) was financially independent long before he started the blog. He's crystal clear about that. He's also clear that he believes being financially independent doesn't mean he's retired from all work. He still works, but chooses what he wants to do and sometimes he gets paid for the work that he does. Blog included.
“If you can get good at destroying your own wrong ideas, that is a great gift.” – Charlie Munger
grok87
Posts: 10512
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by grok87 »

JackoC wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:58 am
grok87 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:04 am
McGilicutty wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?
nicely put.
i think the illiquidity premium is easier to see in bonds.
for example the spreads of corporate bonds can be split into:
total spread = "spread for default risk" + "spread for illiquidity"
or
"spread for illiquidity" = total spread - "spread for default risk"

the argument is that, historically the "total spread" has been larger than the actual default costs. so historically there has been a positive illiquidity premium.
True, fixed income is IMO one place where it's really useful for retail investors to think about liquidity premium in the true sense. Some of the comments and maybe original statement in the article about 'too much emphasis on liquidity' seem to mean 'too much cash', not really the same.

Besides things like corporate bonds where there's a mix of credit and liquidity premium, there's big liquidity premia in some essentially US govt debt. Best yielding 5 yr CD's still near 2% yield, the 5 yr note 0.33%. I would argue some of that is just free money (considering 95% or whatever of CD's will always be well below the best rate CD's, despite there being no meaningful liquidity or credit risk difference between lousy rate CD's and top rate ones) or perhaps to be viewed as high rate of compensation to deal with a slightly more difficult small credit union, etc. (if one's hackles are raised too much by suggestion there's ever a 'free lunch'). But a lot of that difference, 2% CD v 0.33% treasury, is liquidity premium. There is no meaningful credit risk difference IMO between FDIC/NCUA deposits and treasuries. I do think it's actually common on this forum for people to fail to realize that just because they might 'rebalance' from fixed income to stocks doesn't mean *all* of their fixed income should be subject to the huge yield deficit in treasuries due to liquidity preference, especially lately. Any plausible amount of rebalancing would involve a fraction of their fixed income. The huge yield deficit in treasuries v best CD's is caused by all the professional market players who actually need that liquidity on every $ of their treasury position (nor can they feasibly pile into the CD market anyway).

Even TIPS and agency issues often give a significant liquidity premium over treasuries with no or very little additional credit risk respectively.

Actually one and a half area's. Investing some money in direct real estate is commonly feasible for retail investors, and you can expect to reap some illiquidity premium there also. But, there are also plenty of good reasons not to get involved in rental RE in many retail investors' situations.

When it comes to private equity I think it's a more theoretical discussion, unless there were more opportunities to invest in it at typical retail scale without excessive fees. Also in the equity sphere there might be some argument for very small cap stock tilt to reap liquidity premium; pretty unenthusiastic about that myself but worth mentioning. But thinking more about the actual benefit v yield penalty of US treasury liquidity v other forms of US backed debt is something many people could benefit from IMO.
i used to like cds. but i find the early withdrawal penalties have become increasing onerous.
RIP Mr. Bogle.
balbrec2
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:03 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by balbrec2 »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:56 pm
bck63 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:34 pm I agree with number two, but for different reasons. International stocks have been a horrible investment. I stick with a two-fund portfolio, and avoid international stocks like the plague.
What will you do if international starts to outperform U.S. over the next 12, 36, or 60 months?
I've noticed that relative performance between US and Intl Equities lies
with currency fluctuations as much as anything else.
azanon
Posts: 3142
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:34 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by azanon »

2pedals wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:37 pm in #1, WCI states "there is nobody who can actually speak for the entire community and there is actually very little that the vast majority of the community agrees on". Then he titles the article "Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong". :confused
Just saw the thread and I knew 3 pages deep, there'd be no chance I could win. I see you were the first winner.
...

Exactly. #1 WCI list what the real tenants of being a Boglehead is, then #2-10 he lists a bunch of things that have nothing to do with being a Boglehead then implies those are our positions and that we get them wrong. So I'm just as confused as you. Also, he says we should be able to laugh about claims about being a Boglehead that actually aren't true as just explained. Maybe my sense of humor is off, but I'm not laughing. So "we" get those things wrong, but of course he's an exception since he wrote that article.
randomguy
Posts: 11295
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by randomguy »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am I love when doctors complain about patients complaining about the bill.

Doctors make a lot of money. A lot more money than doctors in other peer countries. That to me says there’s lots of margin in all of their services. Which means there’s plenty of room to negotiate.

My quick google search shows the average doctor salary in the US is $294,000/yr. The average doctor salary in the UK is about $145k. Even if medical school in the US costs $300k and is free in the UK it’s a pretty good ROI.
A quick google gives
Average US salary = 63k
Average UK salary = 39.6k

Do you think your salary should be reduced by 1/3rd to match up what people in the UK make?:) The current health care system billing is beyond broken with the idea that you walk into an ER and then deal with a zillion independent contractors. But that is where we are today. And I can imaginen as a doctor it gets pretty tiring to hear all the whining.
randomguy
Posts: 11295
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by randomguy »

simplesimon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am
McGilicutty wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?
Kookaburra wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:23 pm Other than real estate, what is the WCI referring to by an “illiquid investment” and an “illiquidity premium”? Stocks are liquid, are they not? They can be sold with the click of a mouse and deposited into your checking account or settlement fund within one day.
It may be easier to think about it the other way - what are you willing to pay for an investment that is liquid vs the same investment that is not liquid? If the price of the non-liquid investment is lower, the ROI will be higher.

WCI talks about various investments on his website that have minimum holding periods - not publicly-traded stocks.
There just seems to be a really small set of nonLiquid investments that a person can consider. As far as I know, there isn't some way to buy a fund that will return the same as TSM + 1% liquidity premium if I promise not to do redemptions for 10 years. There is private real estate deals that lock your money up for years that I could invest in but good luck figuring out if your getting a good deal or not. Seems like the individual stock picking still is the bigger driver than liquidity.
User avatar
simplesimon
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by simplesimon »

randomguy wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:55 pm
simplesimon wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:32 am
McGilicutty wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?
Kookaburra wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:23 pm Other than real estate, what is the WCI referring to by an “illiquid investment” and an “illiquidity premium”? Stocks are liquid, are they not? They can be sold with the click of a mouse and deposited into your checking account or settlement fund within one day.
It may be easier to think about it the other way - what are you willing to pay for an investment that is liquid vs the same investment that is not liquid? If the price of the non-liquid investment is lower, the ROI will be higher.

WCI talks about various investments on his website that have minimum holding periods - not publicly-traded stocks.
There just seems to be a really small set of nonLiquid investments that a person can consider. As far as I know, there isn't some way to buy a fund that will return the same as TSM + 1% liquidity premium if I promise not to do redemptions for 10 years. There is private real estate deals that lock your money up for years that I could invest in but good luck figuring out if your getting a good deal or not. Seems like the individual stock picking still is the bigger driver than liquidity.
Right. I'm not talking about publicly traded companies or their mutual funds. Another common example of a "premium" for not being able to touch assets is investing in an IRA in the form of tax breaks.

Become an accredited investor and your private options open up.
simpleliving1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:55 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by simpleliving1 »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:47 am Dave Ramsay and MMM are fine for what they are. I think what upsets a lot of people is that are disingenuous or dishonest in their presentation. MMM portrays himself as a guy who retired very young and makes it all work by R.I. g super frugal. Then it comes out that he makes $400K/yr from his website. So he’s not retired......

Dave Ramsay makes most of his money from his books, shows, and trusted circle of advisors. He’s not getting rich by following the advice he dispenses.

None of these are capital crimes, but this is bogleheads.

And our patron saint Jack didn’t do this stuff. He told us how to get rich. He built a company to help us do that. And he never did anything that undermined our faith in that. He could have been a mega billionaire, but he chose not to. He walked the walk.

And most of the venerated posters on here are the same way. The advice they give is genuine, and is based on what they did and how they succeeded. There doesn’t seem to be an agenda or angle from any of them.

Klangfool is one of my favorite posters, but also one of the most blunt and abrasive. His postings are very consistent over time, and the challenges are always intended to benefit the person being challenged. His frequent advise to plan unexpectedly lose your job at some point; that benefitted a lot of people recently.

This is why BH is a million times better than other sites. We don’t all agree. Some are jerks. Some don’t like the consensus here.

But everything is genuine.
Klangfool is one of my favorite posters too.
Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Jags4186 »

randomguy wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:43 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:52 am I love when doctors complain about patients complaining about the bill.

Doctors make a lot of money. A lot more money than doctors in other peer countries. That to me says there’s lots of margin in all of their services. Which means there’s plenty of room to negotiate.

My quick google search shows the average doctor salary in the US is $294,000/yr. The average doctor salary in the UK is about $145k. Even if medical school in the US costs $300k and is free in the UK it’s a pretty good ROI.
A quick google gives
Average US salary = 63k
Average UK salary = 39.6k

Do you think your salary should be reduced by 1/3rd to match up what people in the UK make?:) The current health care system billing is beyond broken with the idea that you walk into an ER and then deal with a zillion independent contractors. But that is where we are today. And I can imaginen as a doctor it gets pretty tiring to hear all the whining.
Average salary overall is meaningless unless you know the distribution of jobs. I have friends who have had jobs in both the UK and the US. Every time they go back and forth they take an increase—for the exact same job.

Regardless, even using your logic, a doctor in the US makes more than 2x as much as a doctor in the UK. Adjust it down by 1/3 and they still make 50% more than a doctor in the UK.

The point is, the doctor shouldn’t need to hear the whining. An employee doctor fills out a time card and a billing department handles the rest. Hospital management then likely has guidelines on when and how much to discount.
User avatar
vitaflo
Posts: 1905
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by vitaflo »

Glad he touched on # 7 "Entrepreneurship is a Bad Idea" because it's something I've been harping on for years (and I know WCI has here too). Becoming a business owner (now with 3 businesses) is the #1 reason I'm able to reach my financial goals and will be able to retire early. It has had a much more massive effect on my portfolio than any of the numerous things we endlessly argue about here. Sweat equity is worth way more than stock equity (mainly because I have direct control over it).

And yet when someone comes here and has the same ambitions it's almost always shot down. Now, I can see if someone isn't asking about starting their own business that perhaps you don't advise them to do so. But too many times people want to take the same path that I took and forum members will scare them away from the idea when it is literally the fastest way to real wealth there is. If someone wants to explore that path, we should encourage them and give them tips, not scare them away from it.
Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Jags4186 »

vitaflo wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:20 pm Glad he touched on # 7 "Entrepreneurship is a Bad Idea" because it's something I've been harping on for years (and I know WCI has here too). Becoming a business owner (now with 3 businesses) is the #1 reason I'm able to reach my financial goals and will be able to retire early. It has had a much more massive effect on my portfolio than any of the numerous things we endlessly argue about here. Sweat equity is worth way more than stock equity (mainly because I have direct control over it).

And yet when someone comes here and has the same ambitions it's almost always shot down. Now, I can see if someone isn't asking about starting their own business that perhaps you don't advise them to do so. But too many times people want to take the same path that I took and forum members will scare them away from the idea when it is literally the fastest way to real wealth there is. If someone wants to explore that path, we should encourage them and give them tips, not scare them away from it.
I think folks who come here are, on the whole, a conservative bunch. We know the statistics. Most actively managed funds underperform the market. Most people lose money day trading or trading options. Most people lose money timing the market. And most businesses fail.

Going 100% equities or tilting to a subset of the market is considered insanity by some folks here. I can see why going out and starting your own business is frowned upon.
User avatar
Helo80
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Unsophisticated Investor

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

corn18 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:26 am He should have included #11: They will berate, belittle and bash anyone who wants to buy a $5k watch or any car other than a Camry.
Yes; I'm surprised no commentary on cars. IIRC, WCI has posted in the "flaunt your high mileage car thread" though, so he may be on the 150k+ mile Camry bandwagon.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
User avatar
Helo80
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Unsophisticated Investor

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:27 am
corn18 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:26 am He should have included #11: They will berate, belittle and bash anyone who wants to buy a $5k watch or any car other than a Camry.
And some will recommend a Tesla no matter what.

lol... I have found Subaru to be the new brand that people feel the need to evangelize.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
User avatar
1210sda
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:31 am

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 1210sda »

happyisland wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:30 am
JPH wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:13 am I generally dislike article based on lists of things. They almost always set up straw man arguments. Every Bogleheads post on the topics he covers contains plenty of pushback and diversity of opinion. Seems like needless stereotyping to come up with an easy article.
Totally agree. This article could have been more accurately titled "Top 10 Boglehead Straw Men I Will Attack For Clickbait".
This is funny!!!!
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95696
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, discussion has no focus - derailed in 10 different directions). See: Locked Topics
Moderators or site admins may lock a topic (set it so no more replies may be added) when a violation of posting policy has occurred. Occasionally, even if there are no overt violations of posting policy, a topic (or thread) will reach a point where the information content of the discussion has been essentially exhausted and further replies are much more likely to cause distress to the community than add anything of value.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
pkcrafter
Posts: 15461
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:19 am
Location: CA
Contact:

10 things Bogleheads get wrong

Post by pkcrafter »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

This is an article by the White Coat Investor (Boglehead member), June, 2020

"Top Ten Things Bogleheads Get Wrong"...

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/bogleheads/

Was it correct then? Is it still correct?


Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
User avatar
David Jay
Posts: 14587
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:54 am
Location: Michigan

Re: 10 things Bogleheads get wrong

Post by David Jay »

I disagree with #7 and I think #10 has moved a bit since he wrote this:

#7: I really do not see this aversion to business owners. I see a lot of commenters writing from their own experience so they may not understand aspects business ownership and it shows in their comments. But they are generally trying to be helpful.

#10: I have not seen a negative comment on MMM in many months. Many here would say that Dave Ramsey's get-out-of-debt plan works well, but do not agree with his investing style (actively managed growth mutual funds purchased from his list of AUM financial advisors).
It's not an engineering problem - Hersh Shefrin | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
MarkRoulo
Posts: 1198
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:25 am

Re: 10 things Bogleheads get wrong

Post by MarkRoulo »

pkcrafter wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:07 pm This is an article by the White Coat Investor (Boglehead member), June, 2020

"Top Ten Things Bogleheads Get Wrong"...

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/bogleheads/

Was it correct then? Is it still correct?


Paul
The list:
  1. There is “Boglehead Consensus” on Every Topic
  2. The Three Fund Portfolio is Special
  3. Optimizing Investments Is The Key to Wealth
  4. Risk Tolerance is Really Important and Static
  5. Expense Ratios Always Matter
  6. Investing in Real Estate Means 3 am Toilet Calls
  7. Entrepreneurship is a Bad Idea
  8. Liquidity is Critical
  9. Doctor Bills Should Always Be Negotiated Retroactively
  10. Mr. Money Mustache and Dave Ramsey Are the Devil Incarnate
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95696
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by LadyGeek »

I merged pkcrafter's thread into the 2020 ongoing discussion.

(Thread remains locked for the reasons stated above.)
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Locked