Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

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homebuyer6426
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Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

When doing some research on rear wheel drive vehicles and snow driving, I came across a strategy that some people use. It has the advantage of being very affordable and hassle free. I'm wondering how well it works.

The idea is to carry a load above the rear tires so that they gain traction. Say you had a 5000 pound rear wheel drive vehicle with a 2000 pound load capacity. About how much load would you add there to improve the snow performance?

For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
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Mike Scott
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Mike Scott »

Adding load to the back of a 2WD pickup truck increases it's traction. We would throw on a load of firewood or something handy for weight. You also need snow or mud tires to get anywhere. Almost any FWD car with good AT tires will still be better in snow. If you have continuous snow cover for 4-5 months you need snow tires and AWD or 4WD car/truck.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Back in the day, I drove my 69 Ford van. The tires in the winter were truck tires which have tread closer to snow than passenger car. I would carry my 4 summer tires on wheels, my tool box and my lincoln welder in the back. But remember that back in the 70's, when everyone had big, front engine, rear drive cars like Buicks and Impalas, nobody got around anywhere near as well as todays cars do. My first Honda, a 75 Civic CVCC with narrow summer tires, front engine, front drive seemed absolutely amazing to me and I felt like it was impossible to even slide at all around a corner at any speed. So yes, the weight would be better than no weight and hundreds of pounds would be reasonable. Most people back in the day used bags full of sand. Not only do you have the weight like this, but if you do get stuck, you have sand to shovel under the tires.

On the type of tire, I offroad my Jeep, so have some very aggressive offroad Dick Cepek Extreme Country tires. I would have thought that they would be ok for winter until I saw a youtube test with an all wheel drive truck between all season, offroad and snow tires. Much to my surprise, the snows blew the offroad tires out of the water as far as performance. Acceleration, turning, stopping were all much better with the snows. So I would absolutely suggest running snows AND adding weight.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

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sport
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by sport »

I have lived in the "snow belt" east of Cleveland most of my life. I have a lot of experience driving in snow. When I had rear wheel drive cars, I always used snow tires in the winter. They were a necessity. In 1981 I bought my first front wheel drive car. The difference was so noticeable, that I have been driving front wheel drive cars ever since. Weight in the trunk helps provide some traction, but can also cause the vehicle to spin when trying to stop. So, it is a mixed blessing. Last fall I bought some Michelin CrossClimate2 all weather tires. They were great last winter. It was almost like having snow tires.
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warowits
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by warowits »

2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by brawlrats »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pm When doing some research on rear wheel drive vehicles and snow driving, I came across a strategy that some people use. It has the advantage of being very affordable and hassle free. I'm wondering how well it works.

The idea is to carry a load above the rear tires so that they gain traction. Say you had a 5000 pound rear wheel drive vehicle with a 2000 pound load capacity. About how much load would you add there to improve the snow performance?

For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
I don't have experience, but growing up in the snow belt of western NY (and now living in a slightly less snowy northeast Ohio, though not in the snow belt of NEO), I always saw pickup trucks loaded with bags of sand in the winter for this exact reason. I've always heard between 300-400 pounds depending on the size of the truck.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by stoptothink »

warowits wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:09 pm 2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
This, it helps a little but get snow tires and be done with it. Proper tires are, by a huge margin, the most important factor in safety/capability in the snow.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by White Coat Investor »

5 months? Get yourself some 4WD. In Utah I drive on snow perhaps 5-10 days a year and 2 of our 3 cars are 4WD. 5 months is more than I drove on snow when I lived in Alaska.

At any rate, 4 WD (and to a much lesser extent good snow tires and a little extra weight in the back, particularly for a pickup) help you get going and avoid getting stuck. Studded snow tires help you stop.

Not sure how much extra weight helps a car, but why not start with 100-200 lbs in the trunk and see how it goes?
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

Think of them as winter tires; so-called "all-season" are rock hard on the cold weather while the winter sorts stay soft. This also helps with the often overlooked advantage of winter tires, their ability to gain traction while stopping. Front wheel drive, all wheel drive do nothing for stopping, in my experience, the more critical situation. If I can't get up the hill I walk, if I can't stop at the intersection...

If safety is the concern, buy a spare set of wheels, put your inter tires on them and over the years of owning the vehicle the cost is about the same.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by dbr »

Without a doubt snow tires, front wheel drive, AWD, and 4WD in sequence or in combination are in line before attempting to fix an unacceptable situation by weighting down a RWD car. That said some weight over the rear axle does indeed improve traction. But then around here the typical snowplow is a plow mounted dump-truck with 8WRD and a couple of tons of sand in the back, other options include 6X6, or something like this 4X4
https://www.oshkoshsnowproducts.com/sno ... s/h-series

Having driven RWD in snow many, many years for me it would be crazy to go back including with sand bags in the trunk. Note one superior combination was the VW Beetle with rear engine. We drove that sort of car for several years starting with a '61 bug.
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ClevrChico
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by ClevrChico »

I believe you're looking for "all weather" tires:

https://www.discounttire.com/learn/all-weather-tires
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by stoptothink »

White Coat Investor wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:35 pm

At any rate, 4 WD (and to a much lesser extent good snow tires and a little extra weight in the back, particularly for a pickup) help you get going and avoid getting stuck. Studded snow tires help you stop.

Not sure how much extra weight helps a car, but why not start with 100-200 lbs in the trunk and see how it goes?
While this being a truck makes it a little more nuanced (weight distribution and lack of FWD truck options), countless 3rd party test have shown that vehicles with snow tires perform better in snow than AWD/4WD with all-seasons. It's also a lot easier to buy a set of snow tires than get a new vehicle. My RWD Nissan hardbody was pretty darn capable in the mountains of Utah for a decade with dedicated snow tires. Of course, ultimately snow tires and 4 drive wheels is the best.

FWIW, we tried "all weather" tires (Nokian WR G4) and they were noticeably worse than our previous dedicated snow/winter tires in the snow, but certainly better than our summer "all seasons".
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quantAndHold
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by quantAndHold »

Back when every car was rear wheel drive, i would carry a bunch of heavy tools in the trunk to get a little extra traction.

But once front wheel drive cars became a thing, I never looked back.

If you’re driving in snow nearly half the year, a more appropriate vehicle would be a better idea than a bunch of sandbags.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

ClevrChico wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:51 pm I believe you're looking for "all weather" tires:

https://www.discounttire.com/learn/all-weather-tires
I think that will be best for me. I'm just not somebody who is going to get them changed every season and I managed for a long time with all-season on a FWD smaller vehicle. Thanks for everybody's advice. Falken Wildpeak AT3W may be what I end up going with.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by bloom2708 »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
ClevrChico wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:51 pm I believe you're looking for "all weather" tires:

https://www.discounttire.com/learn/all-weather-tires
I think that will be best for me. I'm just not somebody who is going to get them changed every season and I managed for a long time with all-season on a FWD smaller vehicle. Thanks for everybody's advice. Falken Wildpeak AT3W may be what I end up going with.
Toyo Celsius is another good option. I have used them on several cars for winter driving, year round.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by dbr »

An interesting anecdote is that supposedly 70% of drivers in the upper Midwest (MN, WI, MI) do not use snow tires, and studs are illegal. AWD SUVs and 4WD pickups are common. Lots of FWD sedans do ok. I don't think very many people are really aware of all weather tires and I don't think any car comes with all weather OEM. I guess drivers of RWD cars just cope as everyone did back then.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by JDave »

Back in the day, when I drove a RWD car with bias ply tires in the Canadian winter, I threw a set of barbell weights and a few bags of sand (handy when you get stuck) in the trunk at the start of winter, and it definitely helped.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by suemarkp »

One thing for a RWD car that doesn't really have any negatives is a limited slip differential. Most cars don't have it, but most have it offered as a cheap option when buying new. With a typical open differential, once one wheel is on a slick surface, you're stuck with one tire spinning and going nowhere. With a limited slip differential, both drive wheels are mostly locked together (allowing only enough slip so they don't bind when cornering). Frequently, snowy rods have a portion of the road that is bare pavement, so as long as you can keep one wheel in that you don't get stuck.

If you don't have a limited slip differential, it could be added. The cheapest way to add it is finding a junkyard axle that has it and just changing out the whole unit. This is easier when the basic car chassis is the same as a performance car (e.g. a Camaro rear axle fits a Nova). But even many Camaro's didn't have a limited slip. And you need to watch the gearing as it could be different in a different axle. That could be a plus or a minus, but if it changes you may need to change a speedometer gear in the transmission or reprogram the vehicle speed sensor.

Next most important is having decent tires.

Adding weight helps forward traction, but can be detrimental to cornering. If the back end gets moving sideways, all that weight has a lot of momentum and you keep rotating longer and harder than if all that weight wasn't back there. A few hundred pounds is probably OK, but don't go crazy with weight.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by sport »

suemarkp wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 pm One thing for a RWD car that doesn't really have any negatives is a limited slip differential. Most cars don't have it, but most have it offered as a cheap option when buying new. With a typical open differential, once one wheel is on a slick surface, you're stuck with one tire spinning and going nowhere. With a limited slip differential, both drive wheels are mostly locked together (allowing only enough slip so they don't bind when cornering). Frequently, snowy rods have a portion of the road that is bare pavement, so as long as you can keep one wheel in that you don't get stuck.
Many years ago, I had a rear wheel drive car with that differential and snow tires. One time, my driveway was more slippery on one side than the other. As you say, one wheel slipped and the other wheel kept driving. However, that wheel pushed the car sideways into the snow. I had to get a tow to get out. So, while the differential helps in some situations, it is not a cure all.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by greg24 »

Given current gas prices, piling weight into the vehicle may not be very economical.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Parkinglotracer »

Live in Syracuse - with 130-160 inches a year of snow. I’d get a front wheel or 4wd car and put 4 snow tires on the car. I wouldn’t do a rear wheel drive car or truck. Have had a buddy die in a pickup when he hit black ice.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by suemarkp »

sport wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:32 pm
suemarkp wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 pm One thing for a RWD car that doesn't really have any negatives is a limited slip differential. Most cars don't have it, but most have it offered as a cheap option when buying new. With a typical open differential, once one wheel is on a slick surface, you're stuck with one tire spinning and going nowhere. With a limited slip differential, both drive wheels are mostly locked together (allowing only enough slip so they don't bind when cornering). Frequently, snowy rods have a portion of the road that is bare pavement, so as long as you can keep one wheel in that you don't get stuck.
Many years ago, I had a rear wheel drive car with that differential and snow tires. One time, my driveway was more slippery on one side than the other. As you say, one wheel slipped and the other wheel kept driving. However, that wheel pushed the car sideways into the snow. I had to get a tow to get out. So, while the differential helps in some situations, it is not a cure all.
If you're spinning both rear tires, then the back end can rotate easily (and the natural torque from the engine can push the back end to one side, usually to the right). I suppose that is a negative and why these differentials don't come standard from the factory. You need a bit more driver skill to be aware of what can happen. Can be more fun too for power oversteer and tire smoke.

I've also had the opposite problem happen. One an icy freeway curve (going slow), the road was banked. Whenever I stopped, the whole car would slowly slide sideways to the right towards the low side of the banked road. As soon as I would start to crawl, I could steer back on path and not slide. Fortunately, traffic was moving enough that I never had to stop for very long. Otherwise, I may have had my door handle up against the berm barrier wall.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by wunder »

Sand bags or rock salt are both good options. I used them in an old RWD drive with "all season" tires and without traction control. Took winter driving from abysmal to poor.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by firebirdparts »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pm When doing some research on rear wheel drive vehicles and snow driving, I came across a strategy that some people use. It has the advantage of being very affordable and hassle free. I'm wondering how well it works.

The idea is to carry a load above the rear tires so that they gain traction. Say you had a 5000 pound rear wheel drive vehicle with a 2000 pound load capacity. About how much load would you add there to improve the snow performance?

For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
I feel very qualified here. I grew up on an appalachian homestead with a steep 1 mile long northern-exposure driveway, in the years before everybody had a 4 wheel drive. If somebody bursts in the door and asks "does anybody have any experience recovering wrecks in the snow" I have to go with them, every time.

In the olden days, people used chains, studded snow tires, snow tires depending on severity. You can literally drive on ice and that's no exaggeration. With ordinary all season tires, you can do "a lot" but of course it all depends on the substrate. In general, when people used ballast, it would be a row of cinderblocks across the back of a pickup (<300 pounds) or a 50 pound bag of sand in the trunk of a car. Two 50 pound bags of sand would not be ridiculous. Really no more than that. The sand was double duty; you could sprinkle it on the road.

People used moderation. As a driver, you'll notice 100 pounds of sand in the trunk of a car, and it won't feel "good".
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by BolderBoy »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pmFor someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
I did that for over 30 years in my various RWD and FWD autos and was satisfied with the results most of the time (was one steep hill in town that I'd try to ascend and invariably slide back down in snowy conditions.) Then I bought my first 4WD SUV. The handling was so much better than any of my previous autos that I've never owned anything without AWD/4WD since. And in addition they all have either all-season/all-terrain tires or just snow tires year-round. When it snows around here, it is quite easy to identify the folks not driving AWD/4WD vehicles (they are slow to get going when the light turns green).

Never slid back down that steep hill again, either.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by firebirdparts »

suemarkp wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 pm One thing for a RWD car that doesn't really have any negatives is a limited slip differential.
Side discussion, but this is very soundly false. There are significant negatives to limited slip/positraction/tractionlock with clutches, offroad, on slide slopes, when turning, and even just accelerating in a straight line. When both tires spin, your resistance to side movement on that end of the car is limited to sliding friction rather than static friction and it's often quite entertainingly low. I daily drive a 1988 T-bird turbo coupe and it wouldn't be strange for it to yaw 45 degrees relative to the road in the summer rain if I drove it as if I believed it wouldn't do that.

As you can guess from my userid, and I a multiple trans am owner, they do the same thing. You have to manage your expectations. These are just some examples where the clutch-type limited slip was standard equipmet.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Watty »

Back in the 1960s and 1970s when rear wheel drive was the norm my Dad would buy bags of fertilizer in the fall when it was on sale and put it in the trunks of the cars then in the spring he would take it out and use it.

My wife has a rear wheel drive pickup but where I live we only get snow a few times a year if that. It handles so badly in snow that when there is snow on the road we just park it and get by with one car for a few days.
homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pm For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
With that much snow snow tires would be a must, it isn't even close.

Even if you have an all wheel or four wheel drive car you would still need snow tires.

You can likely find inexpensive used rims if you have a common car which makes switching them out a lot easier.

Over the long run snow tires are not that expensive since your other tires will last a lot longer if you are not using them five months out of the year.

Carrying a lot of weight in your car just to get getter traction will cost you a lot because of your lower gas mileage. It is just a guess but I suspect that over the long run you could actually save money by getting snow tires.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

firebirdparts wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:15 am
homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pm When doing some research on rear wheel drive vehicles and snow driving, I came across a strategy that some people use. It has the advantage of being very affordable and hassle free. I'm wondering how well it works.

The idea is to carry a load above the rear tires so that they gain traction. Say you had a 5000 pound rear wheel drive vehicle with a 2000 pound load capacity. About how much load would you add there to improve the snow performance?

For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
I feel very qualified here. I grew up on an appalachian homestead with a steep 1 mile long northern-exposure driveway, in the years before everybody had a 4 wheel drive. If somebody bursts in the door and asks "does anybody have any experience recovering wrecks in the snow" I have to go with them, every time.

In the olden days, people used chains, studded snow tires, snow tires depending on severity. You can literally drive on ice and that's no exaggeration. With ordinary all season tires, you can do "a lot" but of course it all depends on the substrate. In general, when people used ballast, it would be a row of cinderblocks across the back of a pickup (<300 pounds) or a 50 pound bag of sand in the trunk of a car. Two 50 pound bags of sand would not be ridiculous. Really no more than that. The sand was double duty; you could sprinkle it on the road.

People used moderation. As a driver, you'll notice 100 pounds of sand in the trunk of a car, and it won't feel "good".
Thanks! The truck comes from Appalachia. But luckily, the one advantage its new home has is that it's completely flat land here.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by tev9876 »

The amount of weight that will help traction, if any, will vary based on your vehicle and the suspension. Pickups are designed with light back ends when empty since they expect you to be carrying heavy cargo. That is going to behave differently than a RWD Charger, which will behave differently than a 20 year old sedan without traction control.

Look for all season tires with the severe snow rating - they will have a snowflake icon. Tirerack makes it easy to filter for these. My snow traction got much better on my last truck when I replaced the OEM Goodyear tires with a similar design but snow rated tire. Then start experimenting with adding weight, but don't exceed the capacity of the vehicle.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Watty »

Two more comments about putting extra weight in a car.

A potential problem is that in an emergency stop if you do not have good tires the extra weight may not help you stop when you are sliding on snow and ice and I would be concerned that the extra weight could tend to cause you to take longer to stop since you would have more momentum. I don't know how the physics would work out but the extra momentum could be a big problem once you are sliding.

If you do something like put cinder blocks in the back of a pickup truck be sure to secure them well. The problem is that if you are in a car accident then they can fly forward into the cab or off into the road and hurt someone.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Sandtrap »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:54 pm When doing some research on rear wheel drive vehicles and snow driving, I came across a strategy that some people use. It has the advantage of being very affordable and hassle free. I'm wondering how well it works.

The idea is to carry a load above the rear tires so that they gain traction. Say you had a 5000 pound rear wheel drive vehicle with a 2000 pound load capacity. About how much load would you add there to improve the snow performance?

For someone who doesn't want to switch between snow and road tires every season, would permanently equipping all-terrain tires be a reasonable option? I do very little highway driving. The snow is present 4-5 months out of the year.
factors needed: both

1 traction
2 steering

4wd or AWD

j🌺
we live a mile high and rural where the roads are not plowed and a 2 mile gravel access road that can but rarely gets 1-2 feet of snow with ice n occasionally mud.
Main highway often has ice in the winter.

we use
4 Runner TRD Pro 4WD: aggressive all season tires
cable chains in the trunk
Honda Passport Elite AWD: aggressive all season tires
cable chains in the trunk.
Toyota Tundra TRD 4WD
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homebuyer6426
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

tev9876 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:33 am The amount of weight that will help traction, if any, will vary based on your vehicle and the suspension. Pickups are designed with light back ends when empty since they expect you to be carrying heavy cargo. That is going to behave differently than a RWD Charger, which will behave differently than a 20 year old sedan without traction control.

Look for all season tires with the severe snow rating - they will have a snowflake icon. Tirerack makes it easy to filter for these. My snow traction got much better on my last truck when I replaced the OEM Goodyear tires with a similar design but snow rated tire. Then start experimenting with adding weight, but don't exceed the capacity of the vehicle.
The Falken WildPeak AT3Ws are all weather/all terrain with the 3 mountain peak snow rating that I've heard they require in some parts of Canada. Hopefully they will be a big help, they seem to have rave reviews.
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jharkin
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by jharkin »

The solution for snow traction in a RWD vehicle is good snow tires on all 4 corners. /full stop

Yes, back in the day people would add weight to the back of RWD cars (in addition to the snow tires) to increase grip in the rear. Typically throwing sandbags in the trunk or in the bed of a pickup. This increases grip at the rear and helps with acceleration and hill climbing.

BE VERY CAREFUL doing this, as there are a couple major caveats to beware of:
- Adding weight to the rear changes the handling of the vehicle and makes it more prone to a dangerous spin if you do loose grip.
- Adding weight to the rear does nothing to improve turning grip or braking. Lots of weight can actually make braking worse.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by trizzle »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:18 pm
warowits wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:09 pm 2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
This, it helps a little but get snow tires and be done with it. Proper tires are, by a huge margin, the most important factor in safety/capability in the snow.
This. I had a RWD BMW 330i for ten years in New England. Not safe at all to drive in any amount of snow with all-season tires. I bought a set of 4 wheels with snow tires for the winter months. That turned it into a snow beast. Best snow car I've ever had. And, the extra set of wheels made putting them on in the winter trivial.

-t
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

There's always the option to run snows all year round. It's what I do after wearing out the OEM all seasons when we buy a new car. I'm sure I'll get the comments that "OMG, you'll wear these out running them in the summer". Well, ok, but I've gotten between 60k and 72k miles out of a set of snows on any of our AWD cars. I have a shed full of spare wheels, so when a set gets too low for winter use, I get another new set for the winter, then run the lower tread ones when spring comes to get all the miles out of them.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by edge »

The weight over the rear axle will ‘help’ but rwd and non-snow tires will always be dangerous in snow conditions.

More detail: Adding weight like this will increase control under slow / careful driving but under acceleration and turning conditions will increase the potential for dangerous snap oversteer into uncontrolled lateral drifts.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by guanonics »

trizzle wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:24 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:18 pm
warowits wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:09 pm 2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
This, it helps a little but get snow tires and be done with it. Proper tires are, by a huge margin, the most important factor in safety/capability in the snow.
This. I had a RWD BMW 330i for ten years in New England. Not safe at all to drive in any amount of snow with all-season tires. I bought a set of 4 wheels with snow tires for the winter months. That turned it into a snow beast. Best snow car I've ever had. And, the extra set of wheels made putting them on in the winter trivial.

-t
+1. I also bought snow wheels for my RWD car instead of snow tires, meaning I could just swap them myself in the garage.

Bogleheads are all about considering risk in concert with reward. Cheaping out on snow tires has a horrible Sharpe ratio.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by tibbitts »

quantAndHold wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:56 pm Back when every car was rear wheel drive, i would carry a bunch of heavy tools in the trunk to get a little extra traction.
Or possibly you carried the tools because back when every car was rear wheel drive they broke down all the time, and you needed those tools to fix them.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by iamlucky13 »

firebirdparts wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:21 am
suemarkp wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 pm One thing for a RWD car that doesn't really have any negatives is a limited slip differential.
Side discussion, but this is very soundly false. There are significant negatives to limited slip/positraction/tractionlock with clutches, offroad, on slide slopes, when turning, and even just accelerating in a straight line. When both tires spin, your resistance to side movement on that end of the car is limited to sliding friction rather than static friction and it's often quite entertainingly low. I daily drive a 1988 T-bird turbo coupe and it wouldn't be strange for it to yaw 45 degrees relative to the road in the summer rain if I drove it as if I believed it wouldn't do that.

As you can guess from my userid, and I a multiple trans am owner, they do the same thing. You have to manage your expectations. These are just some examples where the clutch-type limited slip was standard equipmet.
True, but isn't the real problem not the fact that the driver can get both tires to spin with a limited slip differential instead of just one tire with a standard differential, but rather that the driver keeps spinning their tires after reaching the limit of the available traction?

I had my first experience driving a car with a limited slip differential in the snow this last winter, and was pretty satisfied with how it handled, but I've long had the habit, if I notice the tires start to spin or any side-movement to occur, to immediately ease up on the throttle. I've ended up helping muscle quite a few people out of bad spots in the snow over the years, and most of them just ignore me when I try to coach them to do the same. The neighbors I share a driveway with are terrible about this.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by suemarkp »

Yep. If the back end is coming around, get off the throttle.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Valuethinker »

greg24 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:38 pm Given current gas prices, piling weight into the vehicle may not be very economical.
It is not. Not economical at all. And it may lengthen stopping distance.

It is a poor substitute for proper snow tires. And limited slip differential (for a RWD vehicle).

My father drove 60 miles round trip each day for work in a North American winter for many years. He kept grit in the trunk to use for traction, but never more than 20-30 lbs I don't think.

He did say, when he switched to FWD, that he would never have a RWD car again - not in a Canadian winter.

It's important to have snow tires.

https://www.canadadrives.ca/blog/mainte ... nter-tires

looks like they are mandatory now in Quebec and BC. If you have ever been in Quebec in winter, you will know why. :happy
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:14 am It's important to have snow tires.

looks like they are mandatory now in Quebec and BC. If you have ever been in Quebec in winter, you will know why. :happy
Yep, the all-terrain I selected have the triple mountain peak snowflake symbol, I think that is what those parts of Canada require.

But, these type of tires also reduce gas mileage, probably more than adding a few hundred pounds to a 5000 pound vehicle. Points taken though :)
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by ncbill »

Another vote for chains in this type of situation.

No one down here bothers with snow tires, but chains are still inexpensive enough to carry.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by deikel »

guanonics wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:09 pm
trizzle wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:24 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:18 pm
warowits wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:09 pm 2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
This, it helps a little but get snow tires and be done with it. Proper tires are, by a huge margin, the most important factor in safety/capability in the snow.
This. I had a RWD BMW 330i for ten years in New England. Not safe at all to drive in any amount of snow with all-season tires. I bought a set of 4 wheels with snow tires for the winter months. That turned it into a snow beast. Best snow car I've ever had. And, the extra set of wheels made putting them on in the winter trivial.

-t
+1. I also bought snow wheels for my RWD car instead of snow tires, meaning I could just swap them myself in the garage.

Bogleheads are all about considering risk in concert with reward. Cheaping out on snow tires has a horrible Sharpe ratio.
+1 real dedicated snow tires, maybe even a minor size and then maybe add some weight. Bags of wood pellets are great, they can serve as an ice melt in a pickle
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by whodidntante »

TheGreyingDuke wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:38 pm Think of them as winter tires; so-called "all-season" are rock hard on the cold weather while the winter sorts stay soft. This also helps with the often overlooked advantage of winter tires, their ability to gain traction while stopping. Front wheel drive, all wheel drive do nothing for stopping, in my experience, the more critical situation. If I can't get up the hill I walk, if I can't stop at the intersection...

If safety is the concern, buy a spare set of wheels, put your inter tires on them and over the years of owning the vehicle the cost is about the same.
Also, turning is a pretty useful feature of a car that is made more reliable and predictable with softer winter rubber. I may have a minority opinion, but I have lived in a god-forsaken snow den for decades with rear-wheel-drive cars. I have never wanted 4WD or its sickly cousin AWD. I prefer the handling characteristics and tight turning radius of RWD, and the lower weight, improved reliability, improved efficiency, and lower complexity compared to 4WD/AWD.

A limited-slip diff also helps you get going.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Valuethinker »

guanonics wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:09 pm
trizzle wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:24 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:18 pm
warowits wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:09 pm 2-4 sand bags over the rear axel helps. If you get real snow all seasons and sandbags don’t cut it.
This, it helps a little but get snow tires and be done with it. Proper tires are, by a huge margin, the most important factor in safety/capability in the snow.
This. I had a RWD BMW 330i for ten years in New England. Not safe at all to drive in any amount of snow with all-season tires. I bought a set of 4 wheels with snow tires for the winter months. That turned it into a snow beast. Best snow car I've ever had. And, the extra set of wheels made putting them on in the winter trivial.

-t
+1. I also bought snow wheels for my RWD car instead of snow tires, meaning I could just swap them myself in the garage.

Bogleheads are all about considering risk in concert with reward. Cheaping out on snow tires has a horrible Sharpe ratio.
This is so true. It's why probably most of us carry life insurance (& more than our financial positions + risk might indicate we need).

https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/ ... s-of-risk/

we have discussed recently this piece by investment writer Morgan Housel and an event that happened to him when he was 17.

About the dimension of risk which is not only probability of something going wrong, but the consequences to you if it does.

In the period before the Global Financial Crash, not enough time and effort was spent thinking about the worst outcomes & what the knock on effects would be. The "inefficiency" of running safer, more highly regulated financial institutions with greater capital and liquidity resources was just not traded off against the possibility of a major financial institution going broke & the resultant global panic.

It's not just the probability of a bad outcome, it's what that bad outcome might be.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Valuethinker »

whodidntante wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:11 pm
TheGreyingDuke wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:38 pm Think of them as winter tires; so-called "all-season" are rock hard on the cold weather while the winter sorts stay soft. This also helps with the often overlooked advantage of winter tires, their ability to gain traction while stopping. Front wheel drive, all wheel drive do nothing for stopping, in my experience, the more critical situation. If I can't get up the hill I walk, if I can't stop at the intersection...

If safety is the concern, buy a spare set of wheels, put your inter tires on them and over the years of owning the vehicle the cost is about the same.
Also, turning is a pretty useful feature of a car that is made more reliable and predictable with softer winter rubber. I may have a minority opinion, but I have lived in a god-forsaken snow den for decades with rear-wheel-drive cars. I have never wanted 4WD or its sickly cousin AWD. I prefer the handling characteristics and tight turning radius of RWD, and the lower weight, improved reliability, improved efficiency, and lower complexity compared to 4WD/AWD.

A limited-slip diff also helps you get going.
Did you own Volvos?

I think Swedish cars were engineered for winter roads. It is also quite snowy & icy in Bavaria, and BMW was quintessentially a RWD company.

I don't think North American cars were generally as good. However I am old enough to remember when Japanese cars couldn't take North American winter temperatures (at least not Alberta temperatures) and had very poor rust performance.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Valuethinker »

edge wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:43 am The weight over the rear axle will ‘help’ but rwd and non-snow tires will always be dangerous in snow conditions.

More detail: Adding weight like this will increase control under slow / careful driving but under acceleration and turning conditions will increase the potential for dangerous snap oversteer into uncontrolled lateral drifts.
Adding weight deliberately to the rear axle just seems like an inefficient and less safe solution. Other than my late father - 20-50lbs of road salt and grit in the back.
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Re: Economic snow-driving option for rear wheel drive vehicles: how well does it work?

Post by Valuethinker »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:27 am
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:14 am It's important to have snow tires.

looks like they are mandatory now in Quebec and BC. If you have ever been in Quebec in winter, you will know why. :happy
Yep, the all-terrain I selected have the triple mountain peak snowflake symbol, I think that is what those parts of Canada require.

But, these type of tires also reduce gas mileage, probably more than adding a few hundred pounds to a 5000 pound vehicle. Points taken though :)
I guess it's tradeoffs. I think the optimal performance of a car is, however, close to its designed weight & balance.
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