Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
- hoptastic_voyage
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Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Hi there,
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses. At the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses. At the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Take a look at brokered CDs in the range of 6 month to 2 years. For example there are 2-year CDs yielding 3.3%
- retired@50
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
I think the answer depends on how much effort you're willing to put into finding / chasing better yields elsewhere.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields?
Nothing will be as easy as staying put at your current bank.
In my case, I confine my cash to my local credit union or Vanguard. Which ever one offers the best interest rate wins. I'm not willing to march all over town looking for better deals, but that's me.
Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
It is possible that the prospects for the duration of your retirement would be better without the drag of too much in cash and more of it allocated to a reasonable allocation of stocks and intermediate bond funds. It is also possible that given any particular withdrawal rate exactly what asset allocation you have and what the duration and return of your fixed income might be is of nearly no effect on the outcome.
Perspective would be to know what your withdrawal rates look like, what your asset allocation is, and how much of your income can be relied on from sources other than withdrawing from a portfolio.
Note there are many advantages to consolidating cash accounts in one place of convenience and familiarity rather than chasing yield all over the place even if chasing yield might make one feel that one is "doing something" in a time taken to be stressful.*
*Note the beneficial run-up of stocks and bonds combined with low inflation over the last 10-15 years has been so helpful that we should not feel that times are stressful now, but recency does dominate.
Perspective would be to know what your withdrawal rates look like, what your asset allocation is, and how much of your income can be relied on from sources other than withdrawing from a portfolio.
Note there are many advantages to consolidating cash accounts in one place of convenience and familiarity rather than chasing yield all over the place even if chasing yield might make one feel that one is "doing something" in a time taken to be stressful.*
*Note the beneficial run-up of stocks and bonds combined with low inflation over the last 10-15 years has been so helpful that we should not feel that times are stressful now, but recency does dominate.
- hoptastic_voyage
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Hi there, I'm nearly 50 and withdrawing at about 2.7% of portfolio starting amount annually. At a high level our asset allocation is 70% equities, 30% fixed income. The latter is divided among VGIT and AGG. Presently, short of some 'fun money' we earn, we are drawing down to fund our lifestyle.
- hoptastic_voyage
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- AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
A ladder of one and two year treasuries? Last I heard one year was almost 3 percent and a 2 year was over 3. May have changed though. I did some one and six month t bills myself. And zi bonds of course.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- FoundingFather
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
You're thinking all the right things - I have nothing new to add to what others havebsaid. I'll just put in a second vote for upping your allocation to I Bonds via gifting.
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
The lower the withdrawal rate and the longer the time span generally the less advantage or perhaps really the more disadvantage there is to keeping a bucket of short term fixed income. 70/30 sounds pretty appropriate but with a dominating stock allocation bond selection becomes less significant.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:07 pmHi there, I'm nearly 50 and withdrawing at about 2.7% of portfolio starting amount annually. At a high level our asset allocation is 70% equities, 30% fixed income. The latter is divided among VGIT and AGG. Presently, short of some 'fun money' we earn, we are drawing down to fund our lifestyle.
One should, of course, use common sense to set cash reserves consistent with cash flow management.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
If you are holding several "years" worth of cash in a bank MM account, I would suggest laddering Treasuries, but not staying so short as to be all in 3-month bills. Try to match the duration to the expected timing of the use of the funds. For cash you are holding and not needing for at least 12-month, a 12-month Treasury would seem like a good idea. For funds not needed for 24 months or longer, a two-year bond would seem like a good place for those funds. Maybe you can ladder the funds you expect to need this year in a mix of Treasuries (maturities ranging from one month to nine months or so). You can purchase in the secondary market and have lots and lots of bonds to choose from to customize the duration.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm Hi there,
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses. At the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
I am fairly certain that although you can gift I Binds, an individual regardless of how they get them can only get $10K per year max whether you buy them or have them gifted to you. Am I wrong?1moreyr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:24 pm Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
I have a question about this. If you and you buy the corresponding length in T Bills now, aren't you likely losing out on better yields as the Fed raisers rates?MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:50 amIf you are holding several "years" worth of cash in a bank MM account, I would suggest laddering Treasuries, but not staying so short as to be all in 3-month bills. Try to match the duration to the expected timing of the use of the funds. For cash you are holding and not needing for at least 12-month, a 12-month Treasury would seem like a good idea. For funds not needed for 24 months or longer, a two-year bond would seem like a good place for those funds. Maybe you can ladder the funds you expect to need this year in a mix of Treasuries (maturities ranging from one month to nine months or so). You can purchase in the secondary market and have lots and lots of bonds to choose from to customize the duration.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm Hi there,
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses. At the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Markets don't work that way. Expectations for future rate increases are already baked into rates. Rates should only rise going forward if it turns out the Fed needs to be more aggressive than is already priced into the market. This is why we saw the huge leap in yields two weeks ago when it was rumored the Fed was going to move from a 50bp hike to a 75bp hike for May. Expectations changed.David_w wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:57 amI have a question about this. If you and you buy the corresponding length in T Bills now, aren't you likely losing out on better yields as the Fed raisers rates?MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:50 amIf you are holding several "years" worth of cash in a bank MM account, I would suggest laddering Treasuries, but not staying so short as to be all in 3-month bills. Try to match the duration to the expected timing of the use of the funds. For cash you are holding and not needing for at least 12-month, a 12-month Treasury would seem like a good idea. For funds not needed for 24 months or longer, a two-year bond would seem like a good place for those funds. Maybe you can ladder the funds you expect to need this year in a mix of Treasuries (maturities ranging from one month to nine months or so). You can purchase in the secondary market and have lots and lots of bonds to choose from to customize the duration.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm Hi there,
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses. At the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
If expectations change again for faster increases or a higher Fed funds rate later this year or next year, then yields should climb. I am not unhappy with the yields I got on Tuesday June 14 - one year at > 3.10% and two year at > 3.40%.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
you can gift but not deliver I bonds in advance. otherwise called front end loading. This allows the money to get the current interest rate (9.66) before delivery. by front loading 30k each I am investing the next 3 years worth. The money is locked in there. The risk is inflation could go to zero and i get no interest or gets to where we were and I get 2% interest. either way, my bet is that if inflation trends down over time the interest will "average down" not fall. at this point i have 2 years and 6 months before i can cash it all out and I am still feeling pretty safe about it. if nothing else the money is keeping up with inflation (less taxes). This is better IMO than any CD not keeping up with inflation less taxes.David_w wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:53 amI am fairly certain that although you can gift I Binds, an individual regardless of how they get them can only get $10K per year max whether you buy them or have them gifted to you. Am I wrong?1moreyr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:24 pm Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
if you don't feel that safe , you could gift 10K to your spouse/partner and vice versa. you will then get the next 6 months at 9.66% and 6 months after at whatever the rate is... see Ibond megathread for more details.
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
You are correct.David_w wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:53 amI am fairly certain that although you can gift I Binds, an individual regardless of how they get them can only get $10K per year max whether you buy them or have them gifted to you. Am I wrong?1moreyr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:24 pm Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
So, if you and your spouse have already each bought $10k this year, you can now buy $30k as a gift for each other.
You would hold the $30k gifts for your spouse in your “gift box” and then you could gift them $10k in January 2023, January 2024, and January 2025.
These bonds would earn the 9.6% rate for the next 6 months and the one-year required hold period would start immediately.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
My understanding of that case is that while the one year holding period does go by while in the gift box, no one can redeem the bonds until the gift is completed. That could be an issue for an excessive train of I bond gifts. Is this correct?ModifiedDuration wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:20 amYou are correct.David_w wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:53 amI am fairly certain that although you can gift I Binds, an individual regardless of how they get them can only get $10K per year max whether you buy them or have them gifted to you. Am I wrong?1moreyr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:24 pm Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
So, if you and your spouse have already each bought $10k this year, you can now buy $30k as a gift for each other.
You would hold the $30k gifts for your spouse in your “gift box” and then you could gift them $10k in January 2023, January 2024, and January 2025.
These bonds would earn the 9.6% rate for the next 6 months and the one-year required hold period would start immediately.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
I am using the secondary market on Charles Schwab. They have 3 month (13 week) bonds. that is what i am using. I did lock in some 9 months at 2.76 and 1 year at 3.1% but that was to tie to my financial needs in 2023. I figured locking in what I knew needed in a year at current rates wasnt going to give me much better of a result as market timing. The rates have also fallen back a little since I did that so who knows what the right answer is.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:08 pmAre you doing 13-week or something else? This was one of the ideas I was contemplating.
I would like to do 8 week T bills but haven't figured out how. I am actually not looking into it at the moment. I am new to individual bonds and taking a slow approach learning more about Munis T bills and the rest before going too deep. While I am learning I do the best I can to increase the rates as best I can. Yes I do have 20% of my portfolio in VBTLX and am increasing bond exposure to about 35%-40% slowly.
Additionally, last I knew 8 weeks was 1.16% for a Tbill and Ally bank just raised it's rate to 1% in its savings account. I have .6%-.65% CDs there that I will take the 2 month penalty and move to savings this week. Payback is a little more than one month but the liquidity is there if i need it. Additionally Ally has been pushing up the savings rate every couple weeks so it's a little more like autopilot for short term money.
I am by no means an expert, so take my experience with all the grains of salt you need.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
Perhaps you are aware of this, but I'll mention that the reported money market rates are already net of fees.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm ...
I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
...
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
You are correct.dbr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:24 amMy understanding of that case is that while the one year holding period does go by while in the gift box, no one can redeem the bonds until the gift is completed. That could be an issue for an excessive train of I bond gifts. Is this correct?ModifiedDuration wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:20 amYou are correct.David_w wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:53 amI am fairly certain that although you can gift I Binds, an individual regardless of how they get them can only get $10K per year max whether you buy them or have them gifted to you. Am I wrong?1moreyr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:24 pm Remember you can "gift" I bonds to each other and put additional money in there.
at the current rates, i was comfortable doing future loading of 60K (30K gifts to wife, 30k gifts from wife to me).
with what I already had, there is now $100K in there at 8%.
I am loading Tbills but keeping term short as I believe the rates will be higher soon. At least this is what the Fed is telling me
So, if you and your spouse have already each bought $10k this year, you can now buy $30k as a gift for each other.
You would hold the $30k gifts for your spouse in your “gift box” and then you could gift them $10k in January 2023, January 2024, and January 2025.
These bonds would earn the 9.6% rate for the next 6 months and the one-year required hold period would start immediately.
That is why I only mentioned buying $30k as gifts, for gifting in January 2023, January 2024, and January 2025.
I just wanted to be clear that the one-year clock starts now, not when the gift is actually made in 2023, 2024, and 2025.
It is a neat way to earn the current 9.6% (and the next 6 month rate will probably be high, too) on a lot more than the $10k annual limit, as long as you are ok with having the money tied up for a bit.
Last edited by ModifiedDuration on Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
If you are buying T-bill in the secondary market, then you should see you can select from among all available bonds being offered. Finding bonds maturing in "about" 8 weeks should not be a problem. You should be able to find bonds maturing just about anytime in the secondary market.1moreyr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:24 amI am using the secondary market on Charles Schwab...I would like to do 8 week T bills but haven't figured out how.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:08 pmAre you doing 13-week or something else? This was one of the ideas I was contemplating.
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
There is also an 8-week Treasury Bill auction every Tuesday that you could enter a non-competitive bid on (through Schwab) and get the same rate as all the big Wall Street firms.MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:54 amIf you are buying T-bill in the secondary market, then you should see you can select from among all available bonds being offered. Finding bonds maturing in "about" 8 weeks should not be a problem. You should be able to find bonds maturing just about anytime in the secondary market.1moreyr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:24 amI am using the secondary market on Charles Schwab...I would like to do 8 week T bills but haven't figured out how.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:08 pmAre you doing 13-week or something else? This was one of the ideas I was contemplating.
Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
I just found that tab in Schwab.. So I just place a "bid" for the cash amount and wait to find out what the big guys got?" As it's .16% better than Ally savings at the moment, not sure it's worth the bother but as things change, I just wanted to know if that's correct.ModifiedDuration wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:08 amThere is also an 8-week Treasury Bill auction every Tuesday that you could enter a non-competitive bid on (through Schwab) and get the same rate as all the big Wall Street firms.MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:54 amIf you are buying T-bill in the secondary market, then you should see you can select from among all available bonds being offered. Finding bonds maturing in "about" 8 weeks should not be a problem. You should be able to find bonds maturing just about anytime in the secondary market.1moreyr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:24 amI am using the secondary market on Charles Schwab...I would like to do 8 week T bills but haven't figured out how.hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:08 pmAre you doing 13-week or something else? This was one of the ideas I was contemplating.
[/quote]
If you are buying T-bill in the secondary market, then you should see you can select from among all available bonds being offered. Finding bonds maturing in "about" 8 weeks should not be a problem. You should be able to find bonds maturing just about anytime in the secondary market.
[/quote]
the Schwab secondary market seems to start at 12 weeks. I don't see anything earlier (which may be my mistake).
based on the other response, there is a place for new issues but as stated, i am still trying to understand it.
thanks
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Re: Where to keep cash reserves / operating acct presently?
hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pm Hi there,
I'm an early retiree who currently holds several years of cash, from which we "pay ourselves" monthly (via xfer to checking) to fund our regular operating expenses.
hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:29 pmAt the present, this sum is nearly all in a bank money market account with a 0.9% APY. I know there are higher yield accounts out there now, but this is at the same bank as all our other accounts so there's convenience to consider too. We also hold one year's tranche of I-bonds for my wife and myself, each. I know this isn't immediately accessible cash but it's a small portion so waiting a year or more to access these isn't an issue.
My question is whether something else, like buying rolling 3-month T-bills might make better sense given the additional earnings at present yields? I know that's not "cash", but from a risk + return perspective, seems a reasonable option on the surface. Is that correct, or are there other approaches into which you'd recommend we look? I see the various brokerage money market funds available too but net of fees, don't seem a particularly compelling option vs. our bank money market acct.
Thanks very much!
How many years of spending is "several years of cash"?hoptastic_voyage wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:07 pmHi there, I'm nearly 50 and withdrawing at about 2.7% of portfolio starting amount annually. At a high level our asset allocation is 70% equities, 30% fixed income. The latter is divided among VGIT and AGG. Presently, short of some 'fun money' we earn, we are drawing down to fund our lifestyle.
I suggest a smaller cash hoard, rather than striving for a little more yield on some cash-like investment. A 2.7% annual withdrawal rate and a 30% bond allocation suggests to me that you can do with less cash.
Age 76, retired. For what it's worth we commonly have just 2-4 months worth of expenses in our joint checking account and no formal cash allocation in our portfolio. Our regular retirement spending is more than covered by Social Security benefits, and the required minimum distributions (RMDs) from my rollover IRA.
For medical emergencies we have insurance. For other emergencies we have high limit credit cards to see us through. All of our investing/retirement accounts can be converted to cash in a couple of days.
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