New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

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SerenityBlue
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:34 pm

New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

With my(His) recent job change and increase in AGI, we're in a situation where I need to identify which 401k funds to pick in my new employer's 401k providers plan and consider when I should rollover all my traditional IRAs so we are positioned for the backdoor Roth IRA process in 2023. Below are the 401k funds available to me and the additional provider administrative fee:

Plan Administrative Expenses
John Hancock Recordkeeping Fee - Deducted Pro rata - 0.135%

His Employer 401k Provider Funds
  • Stable Value - Galliard Stable Return Fund (Class C) - No Ticker - 0.38%
  • Stable Value - Reliance MetLife Stable Value Fund Series 25053 – Class 0 - No Ticker - 0.60%
  • Money Market - PIMCO Government Money Market Fund (Administrative Class) - PGOXX - 0.18%
  • Income - BlackRock High Yield Bond Portfolio (Class K) - BRHYX - 0.50%
  • Income - PGIM Short-Term Corporate Bond Fund (Class R6) - PSTQX - 0.40%
  • Income - PIMCO Global Bond Opportunities Fund (U.S. Dollar-Hedged) (Institutional Class) - PGBIX - 0.56%
  • Income - Pioneer Bond Fund (Class K) - PBFKX - 0.34%
  • Income - Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund (Admiral Shares) - VAIPX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Short-Term Federal Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSGDX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2010 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFTTX - 0.28%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2015 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFJTX - 0.29%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2020 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RRCTX - 0.30%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2025 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFDTX - 0.31%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2030 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFETX - 0.33%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2035 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFFTX - 0.35%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2040 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFGTX - 0.36%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2045 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFHTX - 0.37%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2050 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFITX - 0.37%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2055 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFKTX - 0.38%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2060 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFUTX - 0.38%
  • Target Date - American Funds 2065 Target Date Retirement Fund (Class R6) - RFVTX - 0.44%
  • Growth & Income - American Funds - Capital Income Builder Fund (Class R6) - RIRGX - 0.26%
  • Growth & Income - DWS RREEF Real Estate Securities Fund (Class R6) - RRRZX - 0.52%
  • Growth & Income - Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%
  • Growth & Income - Janus Henderson Balanced Fund (Class N) - JABNX - 0.57%
  • Growth & Income - Vanguard Financials Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VFAIX - 0.10%
  • Growth - AB Small Cap Growth Portfolio (Class Z) - QUAZX - 0.75%
  • Growth - Allspring Special Mid Cap Value Fund (Class R6) - WFPRX - 0.70%
  • Growth - Allspring Special Small Cap Value Fund (Class R6) - ESPRX - 0.85%
  • Growth - BlackRock Science & Technology Opportunities Fund (Institutional Class) - BGSIX - 0.93%
  • Growth - JPMorgan Mid Cap Growth Fund (Class R6) - JMGMX - 0.74%
  • Growth - MFS Value Fund (Class R6) - MEIKX - 0.45%
  • Growth - T. Rowe Price Blue Chip Growth Fund (Class I) - TBCIX - 0.56%
  • Growth - Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VIMAX - 0.05%
  • Growth - Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSMAX - 0.05%
  • Growth - Vanguard Utilities Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VUIAX - 0.10%
  • International - American Funds - EuroPacific Growth Fund (Class R6) - RERGX - 0.46%
  • International - American Funds - New World Fund (Class R6) - RNWGX - 0.57%
  • International - Invesco Global Fund (Class R6) - OGLIX - 0.66%
  • International - Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%
  • International - Vanguard International Value Fund - VTRIX - 0.36%
Current old 401k & Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $377k
  • His Fidelity 401k - $217k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.13%
  • His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
  • His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
  • Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05% (Should note that this would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%)
Where I need guidance?
  1. Double-checking on this but I should be making sure my total 2022 401k contributions between the two employers do not exceed $20,500, correct? We're below 50yrs old so no catch-up.
  2. Are these the best 401k funds to pick for the 3-fund portfolio strategy?
    • Domestic: Growth & Income - Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%
    • International: International - Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%
    • Bond: Income - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%
  3. My AGI calculations for 2023 put us on a cusp of not being eligible to contribute to Roth IRAs depending on what MFJ income thresholds the IRS sets for 2023. So I'm trying to get help with the following questions:
    • When would be the best time to start rollover and/or withdraw our traditional IRAs to enable the simpler backdoor Roth IRAs process in 2023?
    • I think I know the answer to this but wanted to check nonetheless. Currently the traditional IRAs are sitting in self-directed accounts and low expense ratio funds. is the higher 401k administrative fees inconsequential when weighed against a simpler future backdoor Roth IRA plus and tax-free growth?
  4. Any other factors I should be thinking about as part of this process?
Last edited by SerenityBlue on Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:08 am, edited 8 times in total.
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retired@50
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am Plan Administrative Expenses
John Hancock Recordkeeping Fee - Deducted Pro rata - 0.135%
...
Where I need guidance?
  1. Double-checking on this but I should be making sure my total 2022 401k contributions between the two employers do not exceed $20,500, correct?
  2. Are these the best 401k funds to pick for the 3-fund portfolio strategy? <- YES.
    • Domestic: Growth & Income - Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%
    • International: International - Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%
    • Bond: Income - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%
  3. My AGI calculations for 2023 put us on a cusp of not being eligible to contribute to Roth IRAs depending on what MFJ income thresholds the IRS sets for 2023. So I'm trying to get help with the following questions:
    • When would be the best time to start rollover and/or withdraw our traditional IRAs to enable the simpler backdoor Roth IRAs process in 2023?
    • I think I know the answer to this but wanted to check nonetheless. Currently the traditional IRAs are sitting in self-directed accounts and low expense ratio funds. is the higher 401k administrative fees inconsequential when weighed against a simpler future backdoor Roth IRA plus and tax-free growth?
You've found the proper 3 funds to use in the new plan.

How large (in dollars) are the current traditional IRA(s)?

Instead of adding them to this plan, with the 0.135% record keeping fee, I'd consider converting the balance to Roth IRA if the balance isn't too big.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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retiredjg
Posts: 54082
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am .... consider when I should rollover all my traditional IRAs so we are positioned for the backdoor Roth IRA process in 2023.
With the 0.135% AUM admin fee, you may not want to roll anything into this new plan. More information is needed about the size of the IRAs and the old 401k that you would roll in there.

If the IRA/401k balances are large, it might be better for you to use a taxable account instead of backdoor Roth. But your spouse is not affected by your IRA balances and maybe could still use backdoor Roth.

We can't tell you what to pick because we don't know what you want and what you hold in other accounts. Here are the choices worthy of consideration in my opinion. In most portfolios I would suggest the ones in blue.
  • Stable Value - Galliard Stable Return Fund (Class C) - No Ticker - 0.38%
  • Stable Value - Reliance MetLife Stable Value Fund Series 25053 – Class 0 - No Ticker - 0.60%
  • Income - Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund (Admiral Shares) - VAIPX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Short-Term Federal Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSGDX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%
  • Growth & Income - Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%
  • Growth - Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VIMAX - 0.05%
  • Growth - Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSMAX - 0.05%
    [* maybe]International - Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%


    [*]Double-checking on this but I should be making sure my total 2022 401k contributions between the two employers do not exceed $20,500, correct?
    Yes, if you are not yet 50. However, if there is a bit too much it can be removed or it can be left in there (you just have to pay tax on that money a second time later on).

    [*]Are these the best 401k funds to pick for the 3-fund portfolio strategy?
    Yes but it depends on what you have in your other accounts too.

    When would be the best time to start rollover and/or withdraw our traditional IRAs to enable the simpler backdoor Roth IRAs process in 2023?
    If you do use the backdoor Roth process in 2023, those IRA balances need to be $0 (or a few stray pennies) at the end of 2023.

    [*]I think I know the answer to this but wanted to check nonetheless. Currently the traditional IRAs are sitting in self-directed accounts and low expense ratio funds. is the higher 401k administrative fees inconsequential when weighed against a simpler future backdoor Roth IRA plus and tax-free growth?[
    Maybe. If the balances are small and/or if you will not be at this new employer long, it might be worth paying it. Or converting to Roth if your balances are pretty small.

    The problem is you have to pay it every year, not just once.
Topic Author
SerenityBlue
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:34 pm

Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:03 am You've found the proper 3 funds to use in the new plan.

How large (in dollars) are the current traditional IRA(s)?

Instead of adding them to this plan, with the 0.135% record keeping fee, I'd consider converting the balance to Roth IRA if the balance isn't too big.

Regards,
Thanks for the reply. I added the traditional IRA info in my original post as well. I should have noted that the $14k tIRA would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%.

Current Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $159k
His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
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ruralavalon
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Location: Illinois

Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by ruralavalon »

Your 401k contributions cannot exceed $20.5k total.

The funds mentioned are th correct choices in my opinion:
1) Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%;
2) Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%; and
3) Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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retired@50
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 am
retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:03 am You've found the proper 3 funds to use in the new plan.

How large (in dollars) are the current traditional IRA(s)?

Instead of adding them to this plan, with the 0.135% record keeping fee, I'd consider converting the balance to Roth IRA if the balance isn't too big.

Regards,
Thanks for the reply. I added the traditional IRA info in my original post as well. I should have noted that the $14k tIRA would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%.

Current Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $159k
His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
Is the new job and 401k plan with the record keeping fee a job for "Him" or "Her"?

For "Her" I'd convert the small t-IRA ($14k) which would clear the path for her to do a backdoor Roth IRA.

In other words, one spouse is not impacted by the other spouse's IRA balance.

For Him, since the balance is much larger ($145k) it becomes a more involved calculation if the new job is "His".

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Topic Author
SerenityBlue
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:34 pm

Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:15 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am .... consider when I should rollover all my traditional IRAs so we are positioned for the backdoor Roth IRA process in 2023.
With the 0.135% AUM admin fee, you may not want to roll anything into this new plan. More information is needed about the size of the IRAs and the old 401k that you would roll in there.

If the IRA/401k balances are large, it might be better for you to use a taxable account instead of backdoor Roth. But your spouse is not affected by your IRA balances and maybe could still use backdoor Roth.

We can't tell you what to pick because we don't know what you want and what you hold in other accounts. Here are the choices worthy of consideration in my opinion. In most portfolios I would suggest the ones in blue.
  • Stable Value - Galliard Stable Return Fund (Class C) - No Ticker - 0.38%
  • Stable Value - Reliance MetLife Stable Value Fund Series 25053 – Class 0 - No Ticker - 0.60%
  • Income - Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund (Admiral Shares) - VAIPX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Short-Term Federal Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSGDX - 0.10%
  • Income - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VBTLX - 0.05%
  • Growth & Income - Fidelity 500 Index Fund - FXAIX - 0.02%
  • Growth - Vanguard Mid-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VIMAX - 0.05%
  • Growth - Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VSMAX - 0.05%
    [* maybe]International - Vanguard Developed Markets Index Fund (Admiral Shares) - VTMGX - 0.07%


    [*]Double-checking on this but I should be making sure my total 2022 401k contributions between the two employers do not exceed $20,500, correct?
    Yes, if you are not yet 50. However, if there is a bit too much it can be removed or it can be left in there (you just have to pay tax on that money a second time later on).

    [*]Are these the best 401k funds to pick for the 3-fund portfolio strategy?
    Yes but it depends on what you have in your other accounts too.

    When would be the best time to start rollover and/or withdraw our traditional IRAs to enable the simpler backdoor Roth IRAs process in 2023?
    If you do use the backdoor Roth process in 2023, those IRA balances need to be $0 (or a few stray pennies) at the end of 2023.

    [*]I think I know the answer to this but wanted to check nonetheless. Currently the traditional IRAs are sitting in self-directed accounts and low expense ratio funds. is the higher 401k administrative fees inconsequential when weighed against a simpler future backdoor Roth IRA plus and tax-free growth?[
    Maybe. If the balances are small and/or if you will not be at this new employer long, it might be worth paying it. Or converting to Roth if your balances are pretty small.

    The problem is you have to pay it every year, not just once.
Thanks for reaffirming my picks. We're not 50 yet so no catch-up available to us. All of our investment accounts (401k/Roth IRA/Taxable) combined follow the 3-fund strategy with funds picked for tax efficiency purposes though we do have stock funds in pre-tax accounts due to the larger contribution amounts. I added my current 401k/tIRA and wife's tIRA info to my original post.
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retiredjg
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am
Current old 401k & Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $159k
  • His Fidelity 401k - $217k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.13%
  • His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
  • His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
Not counting the change in expense ratios, this will cost an extra $214 a year (just for the extra fee).

Is it worth paying $214 to get $6k into Roth IRA instead of taxable? Sorry, I don't know how to do the math on that one. :? I'm not sure it will make a great deal of difference.


However, $217k + $142k + $3k is a lot more than $159k. Is there a typo somewhere?

[*]Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05% (Should note that this would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%)[/list]
This would cost about $25 a year. Probably worth using the backdoor for her. Or just convert the $14k to Roth and pay tax once instead of the extra $25 a year.
Topic Author
SerenityBlue
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:27 am Is the new job and 401k plan with the record keeping fee a job for "Him" or "Her"?

For "Her" I'd convert the small t-IRA ($14k) which would clear the path for her to do a backdoor Roth IRA.

In other words, one spouse is not impacted by the other spouse's IRA balance.

For Him, since the balance is much larger ($145k) it becomes a more involved calculation if the new job is "His".

Regards,
The new job 401k impacts "Him". Updated my original post. Thank you!
Topic Author
SerenityBlue
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:30 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am
Current old 401k & Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $159k
  • His Fidelity 401k - $217k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.13%
  • His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
  • His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
Not counting the change in expense ratios, this will cost an extra $214 a year (just for the extra fee).

Is it worth paying $214 to get $6k into Roth IRA instead of taxable? Sorry, I don't know how to do the math on that one. :? I'm not sure it will make a great deal of difference.


However, $217k + $142k + $3k is a lot more than $159k. Is there a typo somewhere?

[*]Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05% (Should note that this would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%)[/list]
This would cost about $25 a year. Probably worth using the backdoor for her. Or just convert the $14k to Roth and pay tax once instead of the extra $25 a year.
Yes, definite typo there as it should be ~$377k. I forgot to include the "His" old employer 401k info total in the above while replying to all the responses. Will update it now.

Current old 401k & Traditional IRA Accounts Total: $377k
  • His Fidelity 401k - $217k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.13%
  • His Merril Edge tIRA - $142k (3-fund spread) - Avg Gross Expense Ratio 0.06%
  • His Vanguard tIRA - - $3k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05%
  • Her Vanguard tIRA - $14k VBTLX - Gross Expense Ratio 0.05% (Should note that this would roll into my wife's 457b account with a bond fund expense ratio jump of 0.05% to 0.23%)
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retired@50
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:31 am
retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:27 am Is the new job and 401k plan with the record keeping fee a job for "Him" or "Her"?

For "Her" I'd convert the small t-IRA ($14k) which would clear the path for her to do a backdoor Roth IRA.

In other words, one spouse is not impacted by the other spouse's IRA balance.

For Him, since the balance is much larger ($145k) it becomes a more involved calculation if the new job is "His".

Regards,
The new job 401k impacts "Him". Updated my original post. Thank you!
It's probably too late to do anything about it now, but rolling "His" t-IRA balances into the old Fidelity 401k mentioned above would have been ideal. Presuming that account won't accept a roll-in of a t-IRA now that it's no longer "active". Might be worth checking...???

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
Topic Author
SerenityBlue
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:35 am It's probably too late to do anything about it now, but rolling "His" t-IRA balances into the old Fidelity 401k mentioned above would have been ideal. Presuming that account won't accept a roll-in of a t-IRA now that it's no longer "active". Might be worth checking...???

Regards,
Yes, unfortunately that path is closed. I did not do previously perform a rollover to the Fidelity 401k due to the larger expense ratio and that our AGI was below the Roth IRA MFJ income thresholds.
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retiredjg
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

Ok. I see what you did.

For you, the total (possibly) being rolled into the new plan is $217k + $142k + $3k = $489 a year extra admin fee just to get $6k into Roth instead of taxable.

To me that is not worth it. Having money in Roth is better than taxable, but not that much better to me...and taxable is good enough.

I would roll Her IRA into Her 457 so that She can use the backdoor.
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retiredjg
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:37 am
retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:35 am It's probably too late to do anything about it now, but rolling "His" t-IRA balances into the old Fidelity 401k mentioned above would have been ideal. Presuming that account won't accept a roll-in of a t-IRA now that it's no longer "active". Might be worth checking...???

Regards,
Yes, unfortunately that path is closed. I did not do previously perform a rollover to the Fidelity 401k due to the larger expense ratio and that our AGI was below the Roth IRA MFJ income thresholds.
But you can still leave the old money in the old 401k.

Have you actually checked to see if they will take the rollover? A few do. Don't just assume they won't without asking/reading your summary plan description.
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SerenityBlue
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:39 am Ok. I see what you did.

For you, the total (possibly) being rolled into the new plan is $217k + $142k + $3k = $489 a year extra admin fee just to get $6k into Roth instead of taxable.

To me that is not worth it. Having money in Roth is better than taxable, but not that much better to me...and taxable is good enough.

I would roll Her IRA into Her 457 so that She can use the backdoor.
Thanks! Your post is now making me do an actual expense comparison for all the amounts moving. And if we go the taxable route, I suppose I should figure out our effective tax bracket since that will matter as well?
Last edited by SerenityBlue on Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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retired@50
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:37 am
retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:35 am It's probably too late to do anything about it now, but rolling "His" t-IRA balances into the old Fidelity 401k mentioned above would have been ideal. Presuming that account won't accept a roll-in of a t-IRA now that it's no longer "active". Might be worth checking...???

Regards,
Yes, unfortunately that path is closed. I did not do previously perform a rollover to the Fidelity 401k due to the larger expense ratio and that our AGI was below the Roth IRA MFJ income thresholds.
So, as I see it, converting Her t-IRA balance ($14k) to a Roth IRA is a pretty easy call, which will allow her to take advantage of the backdoor Roth IRA strategy.

For Him, it's a multi-stage math problem because on one side you've got to consider the taxes you'd pay to convert His $145k t-IRA balance to Roth IRA. This process might take several years if you're trying to stay below the next highest income tax bracket. The old Fidelity 401k account can stay put, since it's technically not an IRA, it should be left alone.

On the other side of the equation, you've got to consider how much He'll pay in record keeping fees (0.135% on $145k) year after year after year, as long as "He" holds this job, with this 401k plan and this administrative fee. Gaining access to a backdoor Roth IRA for "Him" might be a bridge too far.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:42 am Have you actually checked to see if they will take the rollover? A few do. Don't just assume they won't without asking/reading your summary plan description.
Yup, I definitely checked. Attempting to do a rollover into the Fidelity 401k gives the message that the option is not available online because my employment status doesn't allow this option. I can certainly call them to double-check.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:45 am
retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:42 am Have you actually checked to see if they will take the rollover? A few do. Don't just assume they won't without asking/reading your summary plan description.
Yup, I definitely checked. Attempting to do a rollover into the Fidelity 401k gives the message that the option is not available online because my employment status doesn't allow this option. I can certainly call them to double-check.
Could that mean you can do it by phone call but not online?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:39 am I would roll Her IRA into Her 457 so that She can use the backdoor.
I should have said "roll her IRA into Her 457 or convert the small amount to Roth IRA if you have the cash/income to pay the tax". About $3,300 or so is my guess.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:44 am And if we go the taxable route, I suppose I should figure out our adjusted tax bracket since that will matter as well?
I'm not sure what this question means.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:53 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:44 am And if we go the taxable route, I suppose I should figure out our adjusted tax bracket since that will matter as well?
I'm not sure what this question means.
Sorry, I was wondering if our effective tax rate current vs future needs to be factored between the decision to use taxable vs getting a backdoor Roth IRA now since we're talking about $6000x15-20 years for 1 individual. Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRAs under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:45 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:37 am
retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:35 am It's probably too late to do anything about it now, but rolling "His" t-IRA balances into the old Fidelity 401k mentioned above would have been ideal. Presuming that account won't accept a roll-in of a t-IRA now that it's no longer "active". Might be worth checking...???

Regards,
Yes, unfortunately that path is closed. I did not do previously perform a rollover to the Fidelity 401k due to the larger expense ratio and that our AGI was below the Roth IRA MFJ income thresholds.
So, as I see it, converting Her t-IRA balance ($14k) to a Roth IRA is a pretty easy call, which will allow her to take advantage of the backdoor Roth IRA strategy.

For Him, it's a multi-stage math problem because on one side you've got to consider the taxes you'd pay to convert His $145k t-IRA balance to Roth IRA. This process might take several years if you're trying to stay below the next highest income tax bracket. The old Fidelity 401k account can stay put, since it's technically not an IRA, it should be left alone.

On the other side of the equation, you've got to consider how much He'll pay in record keeping fees (0.135% on $145k) year after year after year, as long as "He" holds this job, with this 401k plan and this administrative fee. Gaining access to a backdoor Roth IRA for "Him" might be a bridge too far.

Regards,
Thanks, that does seem to be my next exercise in figuring out the fees depending on the scenario and then trying to weigh that with the taxable vs Roth IRA tax implications on investment growth down the line. Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRA under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:02 am
retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:53 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:44 am And if we go the taxable route, I suppose I should figure out our adjusted tax bracket since that will matter as well?
I'm not sure what this question means.
Sorry, I was wondering if our effective tax rate current vs future needs to be factored between the decision to use taxable vs getting a backdoor Roth IRA now since we're talking about $6000x15-20 years for 1 individual. Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRAs under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?


Here's the difference you are considering. It does not involve effective tax rates at all.

1. If you put the money in taxable and invest it tax-efficiently, as you sell shares during retirement, you will pay long term capital gains tax on the earnings at either 0% or 15% tax rate under current law. That's a low rate. And you may never even sell any.

2. If you put the money in Roth IRA and leave it long enough, you won't pay tax on the earnings at all. But it costs you $xxx a year to achieve that.

As you can see, it is difficult to predict what is "better", especially since you can't predict the future rates or the future need to sell shares in taxable.

About the 20 years you mentioned, do you think you will be with this new employer that long? If not, there is always the possibility that you can use the backdoor Roth in the future.

Yes, your wife can use the backdoor Roth even if you do not. Even if you file jointly.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:19 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:02 am Sorry, I was wondering if our effective tax rate current vs future needs to be factored between the decision to use taxable vs getting a backdoor Roth IRA now since we're talking about $6000x15-20 years for 1 individual. Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRAs under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?


Here's the difference you are considering. It does not involve effective tax rates at all.

1. If you put the money in taxable and invest it tax-efficiently, as you sell shares during retirement, you will pay long term capital gains tax on the earnings at either 0% or 15% tax rate under current law. That's a low rate. And you may never even sell any.

2. If you put the money in Roth IRA and leave it long enough, you won't pay tax on the earnings at all. But it costs you $xxx a year to achieve that.

As you can see, it is difficult to predict what is "better", especially since you can't predict the future rates or the future need to sell shares in taxable.

About the 20 years you mentioned, do you think you will be with this new employer that long? If not, there is always the possibility that you can use the backdoor Roth in the future.

Yes, your wife can use the backdoor Roth even if you do not. Even if you file jointly.
You're right. I don't know why I was considering effective tax rates when the investment growth would be dictated by LTCG tax rate or not between Roth/taxable. Thanks for setting that straight for me.

What you mentioned in #2 is probably what I need to wrap my head around. If I'm understanding it right, I'm paying extra annual expenses on my rolled over tIRA amounts while hoping to get enough tax free Roth IRA growth that will offset that. Versus going taxable and paying 0/15% LTCG in the future on growth.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

I'm thinking that using the backdoor Roth process is a no-brainer for Her...if you wish to get involved in doing that. It will take some research on your part to figure out how to enter this into your tax software and get it right. Sometimes people need help with this. Some do fine without help. Some just can't figure it out and unwinding a mistake is a pain.

As for you, I do not suggest rolling all of your old 401k and IRAs into the new plan. I don't know that it is a bad idea, but it is not clearly a good idea in my mind. The balance is large and getting money into Roth instead of taxable may not be worth it.

But that leaves the option of leaving the old 401k where it is and only rolling the two IRAs into the plan with the admin fee. I simply do not know if that will be beneficial or not. Seems like it will cost about $200 a year as long as that IRA money is in the new 401k. Again, I have no idea what might be better.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 am ... Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRA under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?
Yes, but by "clear" I would encourage you to just convert it from Her t-IRA to Her Roth IRA. This will involve some amount of income taxes paid, but since it will enable her to use the backdoor Roth IRA for a long time, I think it's a price worth paying. This is allowed, even if you file jointly.

More details on converting t-IRA to Roth IRA here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Roth_IRA_conversion

Also, study up on the backdoor Roth strategy (and form 8606). As retiredjg mentions above, it can be confusing for non tax-nerds.
Link here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:45 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 am ... Also, are you saying that if I clear the traditional IRA under my wife's name, I can perform backdoor Roth for her even though we file jointly?
Yes, but by "clear" I would encourage you to just convert it from Her t-IRA to Her Roth IRA. This will involve some amount of income taxes paid, but since it will enable her to use the backdoor Roth IRA for a long time, I think it's a price worth paying. This is allowed, even if you file jointly.

More details on converting t-IRA to Roth IRA here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Roth_IRA_conversion

Also, study up on the backdoor Roth strategy (and form 8606). As retiredjg mentions above, it can be confusing for non tax-nerds.
Link here: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth

Regards,
Thanks, I'm aware of the 8606 form though haven't had to fill it out for obvious reasons. Do you feel there are any reasons why I should not be rolling over my wife's tIRA to her 457b since it has the lowest combined balance between us two? I can't do a conversion this year as it'll most likely bump our AGI beyond Roth IRA income thresholds in 2022 and we have been actively contributing to our Roth IRAs, so I would defer at least this action to 2023. In addition, converting the ~$14k would result in ~2900 taxes with an effective ~16.5% Federal / ~4.2% State income tax rate. This versus an additional ~$26 annual fee expenses on the rolled over amount.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:55 pm ...Do you feel there are any reasons why I should not be rolling over my wife's tIRA to her 457b since it has the lowest combined balance between us two?
If she has a workplace plan (457b) that will accept the t-IRA, then sure, she could roll into that plan. It just continues the tax-deferral, so that's a reasonable choice.

ETA: If you're concerned about the expense ratios for the bond fund in her 457b plan you could try to view the entire marital portfolio as a single entity, and just hold the bonds in the account that is best suited to holding a low expense bond fund. If you're seeking help in deciding which funds to use in her 457b plan, then you could list them, along with the ticker symbols and expense ratios.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:01 pm
SerenityBlue wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:55 pm ...Do you feel there are any reasons why I should not be rolling over my wife's tIRA to her 457b since it has the lowest combined balance between us two?
If she has a workplace plan (457b) that will accept the t-IRA, then sure, she could roll into that plan. It just continues the tax-deferral, so that's a reasonable choice.

ETA: If you're concerned about the expense ratios for the bond fund in her 457b plan you could try to view the entire marital portfolio as a single entity, and just hold the bonds in the account that is best suited to holding a low expense bond fund. If you're seeking help in deciding which funds to use in her 457b plan, then you could list them, along with the ticker symbols and expense ratios.

Regards,
Yes, I was considering something along those lines for her rollover. Instead of rolling it into the 457b bond fund with a 0.23% ER, I'd roll it into the domestic stock fund that is 0.08% ER which makes it a miniscule 0.03% ER increase and then rebalance portfolio accordingly with future new contributions.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:44 am I'm thinking that using the backdoor Roth process is a no-brainer for Her...if you wish to get involved in doing that. It will take some research on your part to figure out how to enter this into your tax software and get it right. Sometimes people need help with this. Some do fine without help. Some just can't figure it out and unwinding a mistake is a pain.

As for you, I do not suggest rolling all of your old 401k and IRAs into the new plan. I don't know that it is a bad idea, but it is not clearly a good idea in my mind. The balance is large and getting money into Roth instead of taxable may not be worth it.

But that leaves the option of leaving the old 401k where it is and only rolling the two IRAs into the plan with the admin fee. I simply do not know if that will be beneficial or not. Seems like it will cost about $200 a year as long as that IRA money is in the new 401k. Again, I have no idea what might be better.
Yes, this is starting to look like the most viable path. On a very simplified/dumbed down level, I would need ~2.2 to 3.5% growth on Roth IRA contributions to offset the extra fees depending on if I only do the tIRA rollover or old 401k+tIRA rollover. Versus I invest the $6k previous Roth IRA contributions towards taxable and deal with LTCG in the future.

I think I'm complicating it for myself by my desire to 1) have enough Roth IRA funds so I have more room for a Roth ladder for pre-tax funds on retirement. Taxable funds will possibly reduce the bucket size for this effort and 2) keep our portfolio as simple as possible with less accounts to track.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

When you do get to making your Roth ladder, you will probably be happy to have some dollars in taxable to pay the taxes. :happy

I don't think there is a wrong answer other than rolling your entire $489k into the plan that has the admin fee. That option just does not feel good to me.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

Another thought popped in my head. Being that I'm not rolling over my old 401k to my new employer's provider due to high ER and not worrying about backdoor Roth IRA for myself, would it then make sense to instead roll the old 401k $217k over to a rollover Vanguard/Fidelity tIRA and reduce the ER on that balance? Any future pitfalls or considerations I should keep mind before executing something like this?

Old 401k -> Rollover Vanguard tIRA
$97k Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund 0.12 ER -> Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Admiral Shares 0.05 ER
$62k Vanguard Total International Stock Index  0.16 ER -> Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares 0.11 ER
$58k Vanguard Total Stock Market Index 0.1 ER -> Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Admiral Shares 0.04 ER
Last edited by SerenityBlue on Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

I would roll it into a rollover IRA (if you roll it at all). This might (or might not) make it easier to roll it into a 401k in the future.

When you say "self directed IRA" do you mean a plain vanilla IRA or one of the special kinds where you can hold special stuff?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:25 pm I would roll it into a rollover IRA (if you roll it at all). This might (or might not) make it easier to roll it into a 401k in the future.

When you say "self directed IRA" do you mean a plain vanilla IRA or one of the special kinds where you can hold special stuff?
Plain vanilla rollover tIRA to hold mutual funds/ETFs. I'm quickly learning today how my use of terminology that I use literally actually has significant meaning on the financial side. :oops: Is the point you are making about a rollover tIRA not making it easier to roll into a 401k in the future because of what rules that plan might have?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

Some work plans will only accept funds from something called a "rollover IRA". This is a holdover from many years ago when that is all that was allowed.

If the IRA you have is already a rollover IRA, I don't see any reason not to just use that one.

I believe there is a special kind of IRA called "self directed" that means it can hold things like real estate (real land or buildings) which a plain old IRA cannot hold. Not something I know much about. But I think it means some other than "an IRA that I direct myself".

Terminology is always a stumbling block. One reason I ask so many questions. :happy
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:40 pm Some work plans will only accept funds from something called a "rollover IRA". This is a holdover from many years ago when that is all that was allowed.

If the IRA you have is already a rollover IRA, I don't see any reason not to just use that one.

I believe there is a special kind of IRA called "self directed" that means it can hold things like real estate (real land or buildings) which a plain old IRA cannot hold. Not something I know much about. But I think it means some other than "an IRA that I direct myself".

Terminology is always a stumbling block. One reason I ask so many questions. :happy
Unfortunately the larger tIRA had the "rollover" designation drop-off when I transferred it between Vanguard to Merril Edge to take advantage of a transfer bonus. So if I roll it over, maybe it's better it sits in its own separate account while getting ~$150+ in ER annual savings? Sounds like I would need to worry about this "rollover IRA" roadblock if I join an company that has a HR team not adept at picking a decent 401k provider which is not out of the realm of possibility.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

Can you save $150 in ER by moving from old 401k to IRA?
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:52 pm Can you save $150 in ER by moving from old 401k to IRA?
I re-checked the gross ERs with my old 401k plan and looks like they changed from when I last documented it. So its actually not worth rolling it over.

$97k 401k VG Bond MF w/ gross ER 0.07% -> tIRA VBTLX ER 0.05%
$62k 401k VG International Stock MF w/ gross ER 0.11% -> tIRA VTIAX ER 0.11%
$58k 401k VG Domestic Stock MF w/ gross ER 0.05% -> tIRA VTSAX ER 0.04%

I'm going to call Fidelity (old 401k provider) on Monday and see if they will accept a rollover into this account. That may solve my backdoor Roth IRA issue.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

Confirmed with Fidelity that due to no longer being employed by the employer, I can no longer make any contributions (including rollover funds) towards my old 401k. So no backdoor Roth IRA for me and will have to use a taxable account instead. I think I'll immediately kickstart my wife's tIRA rollover into her 457b this year since the ER difference will only be 0.03% on a $14k balance and navigate any potential roadblocks early. This way it should position us for her backdoor Roth at the start of 2023.
Last edited by SerenityBlue on Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retired@50 »

SerenityBlue wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:49 am Confirmed with Fidelity that due to no longer being employed by the employer, I can no longer make any contributions (including rollover funds) towards my old 401k. So no backdoor Roth IRA for me and will have to leverage USE A taxable ACCOUNT instead. I think I'll immediately kickstart my wife's tIRA rollover into her 457b this year since the ER difference will only be 0.03% on a $14k balance and navigate any potential roadblocks early. This way it should position us for her backdoor Roth at the start of 2023.
There's no need for leverage. Terminology matters.

Regards,
If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -George Orwell
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retired@50 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:58 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:49 am Confirmed with Fidelity that due to no longer being employed by the employer, I can no longer make any contributions (including rollover funds) towards my old 401k. So no backdoor Roth IRA for me and will have to leverage USE A taxable ACCOUNT instead. I think I'll immediately kickstart my wife's tIRA rollover into her 457b this year since the ER difference will only be 0.03% on a $14k balance and navigate any potential roadblocks early. This way it should position us for her backdoor Roth at the start of 2023.
There's no need for leverage. Terminology matters.

Regards,
:sharebeer
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by retiredjg »

SerenityBlue wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:49 am Confirmed with Fidelity that due to no longer being employed by the employer, I can no longer make any contributions (including rollover funds) towards my old 401k. So no backdoor Roth IRA for me and will have to use a taxable account instead. I think I'll immediately kickstart my wife's tIRA rollover into her 457b this year since the ER difference will only be 0.03% on a $14k balance and navigate any potential roadblocks early. This way it should position us for her backdoor Roth at the start of 2023.
If done in 2022, would also mean the backdoor Roth is possible for her in 2022, if needed.
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Re: New job - Need assistance picking 401k funds & future backdoor Roth IRA considerations

Post by SerenityBlue »

retiredjg wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:21 am
SerenityBlue wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:49 am Confirmed with Fidelity that due to no longer being employed by the employer, I can no longer make any contributions (including rollover funds) towards my old 401k. So no backdoor Roth IRA for me and will have to use a taxable account instead. I think I'll immediately kickstart my wife's tIRA rollover into her 457b this year since the ER difference will only be 0.03% on a $14k balance and navigate any potential roadblocks early. This way it should position us for her backdoor Roth at the start of 2023.
If done in 2022, would also mean the backdoor Roth is possible for her in 2022, if needed.
Thanks. Fortunately our joint 2022 AGI is below Roth IRA MFJ income threshold limits even when accounting for my compensation increase plus we have weekly Roth IRA contributions setup that I'll be turning off end of this year.
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