Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

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PhinanceMD
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Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Hi all, we are a 2 physician couple with 2 girls (2 year old, newborn) looking for a new adventure in ~2025. Currently living in Portland, OR. We are US Citizens but with an Arab and Turkish background (I’m fluent in Arabic, my wife is conversational in Turkish). I have visited Dubai a couple of times and am impressed by the growth, diversity, and improving infrastructure. A few questions:

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..)
-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US)
-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai?
-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?

Thank you in advance.
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DJN
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by DJN »

hi,
you might prefer Abu Dhabi
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

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Thx DJN, will look into Abu Dhabi as well.
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coalcracker
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by coalcracker »

You might want to check out this website and FB group dedicated to US physicians working abroad. It's pretty active and I've seen some posts there about working in the Middle East. I believe some information may be behind a paywall.

https://www.hippocraticadventures.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hippocraticadventures

Good luck!
TomWambsgans
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by TomWambsgans »

I've visited Dubai multiple times, for personal and professional reasons. I also honeymooned there, and had a great time--but that was before I was really familiar with the place.


-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
There's a real chance you won't like Dubai, then. It may strike you as a more of a shopping mall than a city. From what I saw, one expresses oneself by consuming. You are your brands.

-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?
It is loud and in your face. There are message boards devoted to expat life in Dubai--suggest you Google around. There is a lower caste of laborers that...looks a lot like slavery.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

You’re right, we might hate Dubai, certainly the excessive materialism (“you are your brand”) and the modern day indentured workers/slavery is concerning. The website link is very helpful, thank you. We are not set on a country, just ready for an adventure to a country that matches our ethics where we can find 2 physician jobs.

Portland, OR FYI also has lots of problems, homelessness, crime, I guess no place is perfect.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by elderwise »

Dubai has its good and bad. However it is not KSA Saudi Arabia, so Arab or not its more open for westerners women can drive etc k(although I think Saudi also changed it recently) .

Secondly if you work for a local hospital or a foreign one, try to get them to Gross Up your salary. From experience I can tell you good employers will true up your USD$ pay.

If you work anywhere outside yeah FEIE allows roughly 110k adjusted for inflation to be tax free and 2x if both work but any benefit you get is taxable Per IRS.

So a Dual Income couple with kids making 400K combined or more, with paid housing (as is normal there) + paid annual business class tickets(as is normal there) and all the internet car XYZ allowances all add up to your gross pay.

A good employer will have PwC or KPMG or a good external tax advisor run the numbers and advise how much your tax liability (hypothetical Tax burden) has increased due to the added benefit. And they cut you a check for that..sweet.

Many do a 3 year contract just to get a change..unless you are leaving a Federal GS etc type job as a physician you can always come back without any issues..if you feel like trying no harm.

If you speak Arabic more power to you 8-)
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Very helpful elderwise, thank you.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by gtd98765 »

I recommend spending a month or two there on vacation, consulting, or something before committing to a long-term disruptive move to a place so different from the US, assuming that is where you have always lived.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

I grew up in Kuwait, know the area, but my wife grew up in the US, might be a culture shock for her.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by aas »

I have spoken to a physician who worked there on the past and he said the process of getting all the paperwork on order can take up to a year. He was a surgeon and was very frustrated about not having qualified technicians to assist with surgery tools, it's not efficient like Usa. The temperature is unrelenting except December thru February. Oregon is beautiful for nature lovers while gulf states are just hot and desert
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by sleepy06 »

How would this help you achieve your goals? Is there any other way to relieve your boredom? Take up a new directorship, partner with industry, etc? Maybe take some trips to Dubai instead?
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Dude2 »

Phinance wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 am Hi all, we are a 2 physician couple with 2 girls (2 year old, newborn) looking for a new adventure in ~2025. Currently living in Portland, OR. We are US Citizens but with an Arab and Turkish background (I’m fluent in Arabic, my wife is conversational in Turkish). I have visited Dubai a couple of times and am impressed by the growth, diversity, and improving infrastructure. A few questions:

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..)
-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US)
-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai?
-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?

Thank you in advance.
Just quick anecdotal reply without anything to back it up. Generally people with kids love living in the UAE due to the safety factor. The entire place is like Disneyland. Due to excessive heat, the culture lives in the air conditioned shopping malls. This is a place where you could leave your car unlocked with two gold bars on the dash, and come back in 12 hours to find everything undisturbed. Similarly, you could let your kids go play in the park at 3 am and nothing would happen to them. How is this possible? Pretty much because everything is on camera. The people have all been vetted in some way to be allowed to work in the country, and the penalties for wrong-doing are harsh. If you are a trouble-maker, you won't last very long in the UAE. What remains are law-abiding types that are just there to work, mostly folks from India that are there for better opportunities. Every once in a blue moon you will get some act of violence like any other place due to some specific life circumstance of the participants, but nothing like gangs or organized mobs, etc. My impression is that the international grade schools are very good and probably fairly costly. There is also higher education, (NYU has a participating campus there) but I'd be somewhat leery of it. Better than nothing for sure.

The cost of living is very high. A younger kid might love it, but for an adult there isn't much to do. The place is geared more for the rich weekend-getaway types. There is no gambling and very little drinking. That leaves food and laying around by a pool.

My experience is that most of your medical staff are Indians. Healthcare is generally good. I highly doubt you'd get significantly larger pay there in that profession as they can pay Indian doctors less. On the other hand, for other niche jobs, such as defense and military support, Americans can get high salaries. Similar for nuclear professionals (they're getting a reactor) or specialists in oil. International business folks and banking types might find a niche as well.

To ask about favoritism between Emirati and non-Emirate is apt. Yes, Emirati, who make up a very small percentage of the population, are favored. Everybody else can potentially be deported. I think up until fairly recently, you couldn't own property or buy land in the country as a non-citizen. Therefore, you are essentially just borrowing. Similar to owning businesses. Plus there is a strange ruleset that says when you contract with the UAE government, you have to basically set aside a percentage that you must use to stimulate the local economy, i.e. set up local business, hire Emirati. The contract is not fulfilled until this obligation is met, and yet, the implementation is subject to approval that is never given. Therefore, you always owe them something that will continue to accumulate the longer you do business. These are not issues that a person hired to do a job will need to worry about, but certainly something that people wanting to establish a company presence in the country must deal with.

Driving is terrible as most drivers are Indians who learned on the other side of the road. This is a former British colony, and many Brits are tourists. They also learned on the other side. Things are very aggressive. This is a culture of muscle cars. People will accelerate like a bat out of hell in between the traffic cameras, slam on the brakes, then repeat the process. Traffic is bad. Roads are dangerous. The issue is it is so boring to live there that people want to get from boring point A to boring point B as quickly as possible.
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by jodhpur »

Not a physician...but know quite a few people who enjoyed their few years in Dubai.
They lived on a compound-- families had a nice 2000 square food house or a condo. Power was paid for, only expense was a cell phone bill. They saved 100k+ a year tax free. The compound had a great International school-- a good experience for the kids.

They basically had a live in maid/nanny/cook they somehow shared with a few nearby houses--the price was eye-openingly low.
They had a car, but the compound had a "bus" system. Mainly to the associated workplaces (think airport, financial centers, or hospitals) and grocery shopping areas.
And taxis are dirt cheap (maybe a 1/5 of what we pay in the US).
I would be concerned about driving there--I'm sure hitting an Emirati citizens car could be a legal liability nightmare of some sort.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Katietsu »

I believe Cleveland Clinic and Mayo both have operations in the UAE. Maybe a conversation with whoever does their recruiting could be a place to start?
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Super helpful, thank you all :sharebeer
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by elderwise »

People posting here need to realize OP grew up in Kuwait, I personally have not lived in Kuwait..

But KSA, Kuwait, Bahrain , Dubai are all very similar.

Op speaks Arabic, so he will have 0 issues communicating there with locals or other govt offices.

As a US passport holder you are treated way differently even if your non Arab, say you are from any Asian country but hold a US passport you get a totally different treatment, do I like this? No..as humans we all should be treated the same..is it OPs fault they treat western passport holders on a different level? NO

Without getting into politics let not pretend USA is utopia..yes there are pros and cons of many foreign places..but fundamentally for OP case who grew up in middle east he knows more than we do (taxes and other issues aside).

If your US born US raised and never lived outside USA, yes I wholly agree its a huge change in lifestyle and what not.

Best of luck OP, living abroad is an experience..
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Thank you elderwise for your sage advice.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Watty »

Phinance wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 am -Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
Decades ago I very briefly considered working in the middle east for a bit to save up a lot of money, but I never even applied for a job.

The types of jobs that I would have had included lots of time off so a big selling point was every couple of months you could easily fly to Europe or more desirable locations.

I suspect that a lot of people that work in Dubai will travel when they can get more than a few days off during that part of the year.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Dude2 »

Watty wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:55 pm I suspect that a lot of people that work in Dubai will travel when they can get more than a few days off during that part of the year.
Very true, although certainly one is constrained by practicality (cost). Dubai has certainly become a hub in the area. Emirates airlines offers a variety of options. You can get to the East, Africa, Europe in only a few hours. Even Australia is not completely out of the question.
https://www.emirates.com/us/english/des ... e-map.aspx
You've also got their sister airline Etihad in Abu Dhabi. Those are your state-owned airlines and pretty high end and trustworthy.
On the other hand, you've got everything else. Air India, Singapore Air, etc. where you might be a little leery. Fly Dubai is a smaller, cheaper airline, sort of the "Southwest Airlines" equivalent.

My younger co-workers would go someplace just about every chance they got. They even figured out a way to get to Russia, despite the inability to get visas for US persons, by buying tickets to a soccer game, allowing them to skirt those rules.

Emirati themselves (and Saudis) travel a great deal. (At least the men do).
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by DarkMatter731 »

elderwise wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:18 am People posting here need to realize OP grew up in Kuwait, I personally have not lived in Kuwait..

But KSA, Kuwait, Bahrain , Dubai are all very similar.

Op speaks Arabic, so he will have 0 issues communicating there with locals or other govt offices.

As a US passport holder you are treated way differently even if your non Arab, say you are from any Asian country but hold a US passport you get a totally different treatment, do I like this? No..as humans we all should be treated the same..is it OPs fault they treat western passport holders on a different level? NO

Without getting into politics let not pretend USA is utopia..yes there are pros and cons of many foreign places..but fundamentally for OP case who grew up in middle east he knows more than we do (taxes and other issues aside).

If your US born US raised and never lived outside USA, yes I wholly agree its a huge change in lifestyle and what not.

Best of luck OP, living abroad is an experience..
Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.

We've gone to Dubai on holiday but as an Indian guy, it was very surreal being the only Indian family being served in the 5 star hotel we stayed at. All the other Indians were either workers or laborers.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Dude2 »

DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by valleyrock »

On another note, there are surely some interesting, albeit probably non-lucrative, opportunities to work where they really need physicians and where your fluency in Arabic would be an asset. Palestinian camps in Jordan, for example, are essentially huge cities. I've worked in Jordan and with good people who came by bus into Amman to work. Overall a safe country, but far different from the shopping malls of Dubai. Jordanians I worked with went to Dubai for training (I work in public health), so there are no doubt opportunities in Dubai from the educational side. And there's Physicians Without Borders, international aid and the like. The international aid community is a special group.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by DarkMatter731 »

Dude2 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:28 am
DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
For an American, I can see your point.

I'm not an American as a British citizen. I've got none of the tax hassles that Americans seem to have as expats if I'm understanding it correctly.

For me, it's effectively tax free earning + I can return to the UK if I get sick.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by elderwise »

Dude2 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:28 am
DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
Two things..I can say that good employers will not only provide free tax consult. But will also pay (cut a check) foe the exact same added tax liability for all those benefits


Secondly I am pretty certain with IANAL caveat, that unless your employer is US you Do NOT pay into SS and FICA except that you also don't earn the SS credits to get Medicare and or SS at 65+ so it's double edges sword but hey if you can save KKK for 15 20 years who cares for SS If your personal PF is a big nest egg.

I however wholly agree that unless the $ makes good sense I wouldn't personally do it.

Also VAT is correct in Dubai, but it does not yet exist in Qatar but may happen. None of the Middle E countries had VAT they only included it recently with the 2015 oil price dump and covid..I think Dubai didn't have it back in 2010 could be wrong.

Many people do it for more than money, if your an Asian American say Indian , Pakistani, Bangladeshi your native or country of ethnicity is closer 2 to 3 hr flight. For those who have family or relatives it may make sense.
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by elderwise »

DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:26 am
Dude2 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:28 am
DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
For an American, I can see your point.

I'm not an American as a British citizen. I've got none of the tax hassles that Americans seem to have as expats if I'm understanding it correctly.

For me, it's effectively tax free earning + I can return to the UK if I get sick.
Aw for you Brits am always damn jealous of the

RBT Remittance Based Taxation (Non Dom) 😎
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Thanks for info, this has sparked more questions on the assumption we move to Dubai/Abu Dhabi:

-How do I maintain my Vanguard Taxable and Roth IRA account, I heard you need a US permanent address? (Can I list a friend’s or something since basically mail has almost no utility in my transactions etc.) Do I need a US cell number? It would be a big negative if I can’t continue with Vanguard.
-My assumption is my wife and I could deduct 112K each (so 224K as married filing jointly). That seems great, am I missing something? We would pay federal tax on the rest, may I verify if FICA (social security + Medicare) is also due? I’m guessing I could do this on TurboTax, would my foreign employer/hospital provide me with a W-2 equivalent?
-There was a comment that salary would have to be double (x2) or not worth moving as a US citizen, we make 500K total USD as a physician couple, are you saying we should expect 1M USD in compensation?
-We have both paid 10+ years of taxes in the US (since medical residency), would we still qualify for Medicare and Social Security in the future but at a lower amount?

Thank you all
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traveler901
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by traveler901 »

I used to live in Dubai (I am American) - I will try to answer some of your questions based on my knowledge, but there are a number of good sources out there. Dubai is 90% expat population so you will notice that much of the city is designed around foreign residents (housing, schools, hospitals, work, etc.).

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..) I didn't have kids, but everyone does private school and many are quite good. I think over 20 follow American curriculum. I am not sure what you mean by bilingual however. I believe the vast majority of english-speaking expats sent their kids to English language schools.

-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US) - sorry, not my industry

-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then? June to August is terrible. Most everyone goes on vacations and you find indoor activities to do. A lot of restaurants/bars/activities around the city offer huge discounts since there is no tourism in the summer. Many expat families had a non-working spouse, and the spouse and kids often leave for the summer to go back to their home country and stay with grandparents, or a second house that they own, etc. Because of this, the city feels much less populated in the summer months and many kids are gone.

-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc. There are many family-oriented neighborhoods. It obviously has it's glitzy reputation, but you will be surprised how many western expats are really just normal people. Many people I knew had really normal jobs and spending habits.

-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai? I used a US-based tax service.

-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents? No. As stated most of the population of Dubai is not Emirati.

-How do I maintain my Vanguard Taxable and Roth IRA account, I heard you need a US permanent address? (Can I list a friend’s or something since basically mail has almost no utility in my transactions etc.) Do I need a US cell number? It would be a big negative if I can’t continue with Vanguard. I used a family member's address, and turned off 2FA for Vanguard. I had no issues.

-My assumption is my wife and I could deduct 112K each (so 224K as married filing jointly). That seems great, am I missing something? We would pay federal tax on the rest, may I verify if FICA (social security + Medicare) is also due? I’m guessing I could do this on TurboTax, would my foreign employer/hospital provide me with a W-2 equivalent? Yes, your employer can provide you with a statement of earnings.

-There was a comment that salary would have to be double (x2) or not worth moving as a US citizen, we make 500K total USD as a physician couple, are you saying we should expect 1M USD in compensation? I don't really understand this comment. You will obviously pay less in taxes so even a same salary means more money hitting your pocket. However, you won't have the ability to do things like 401k or HSA contributions. Depending on where you are moving from, the cost of living could be a big adjustment. If moving from something like San Fran or NYC, then it would actually be slightly cheaper.

-We have both paid 10+ years of taxes in the US (since medical residency), would we still qualify for Medicare and Social Security in the future but at a lower amount? You will still pay social security/medicare taxes so no impact.
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PhinanceMD
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Super informative, thank you, and very much appreciate your taking the time to answer each question. Cheers.
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PhinanceMD
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Thank you. Can you kindly expand on the comment that you would need 2x the salary to justify a move to UAE as a US citizen?

My understanding is that my tax efficiency improves by moving to Dubai with an identical salary as the US (500K USD total for 2 physicians) as we would be taxed at lower federal brackets with the 112Kx2=224K foreign tax deduction. Negatives of course being no 401K or HSA contribution plans. We could still do backdoor Roths correct?
Dude2 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:28 am
DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
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elderwise
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by elderwise »

Phinance wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:54 pm Thank you. Can you kindly expand on the comment that you would need 2x the salary to justify a move to UAE as a US citizen?

My understanding is that my tax efficiency improves by moving to Dubai with an identical salary as the US (500K USD total for 2 physicians) as we would be taxed at lower federal brackets with the 112Kx2=224K foreign tax deduction. Negatives of course being no 401K or HSA contribution plans. We could still do backdoor Roths correct?
Dude2 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:28 am
DarkMatter731 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:01 am Dubai has no capital gains tax which sounds fantastic to me.
The UAE does not require non-nationals to pay income tax. It makes it simpler for foreign workers. However, this isn't necessarily a benefit. Most tax treaties that the US has with other countries prevent double taxation. Anything you'd pay in tax to the foreign government, you'd deduct on your US taxes -- amounting to parity. Essentially it just breaks down to you pay the same taxes you'd pay regardless of where you work (that's the general idea anyway). If you make more elsewhere, you'd pay more taxes though - except, you get a deduction as long as you live in the country over a year and don't return to the US for more than 30ish days in that timeframe. That's the FEIE.

One thing to be wary of. ok, two things. The first is that despite not paying income tax to foreign governments, you generally pay out via VAT. This is essentially a sales tax on everything. Second thing is that many of the perks you get for working overseas are taxed as income. Let's say your employer is going to pay your housing, car rental, etc. You don't pocket anything for that, but you will end up paying the tax for your employer. This is why ex-pats generally get tax services provided by the employer as part of the deal -- there are monies that must be returned to the employer because they aren't responsible for paying tax on housing, car rental that they provided to you.

Generally speaking, it is not advantageous for US persons to become ex-pats in the sense of competing fairly in a global marketplace. US persons must command higher salaries than their non-US expat counterparts to make up for tax that the other countries' citizens are not having to pay. Additionally other countries provide more in the way of health care in foreign lands. This is why you need to balance the salary versus the trouble. You might not even know until a couple of years into an assignment how worthwhile it was, despite being lured into it with salaries at 2x and expenses paid and so forth. Until the tax man gets his cut, the fat lady has not sung. You will still be paying SS and FICA while away, etc. Additionally, the FEIE takes a deduction from the top end of AGI, not the bottom (if that makes any sense).

Bottom line is that it isn't simple. The folks I've found that have been happy to go to the UAE to work for a few years all had young kids. Otherwise, unless you're getting at least 2X salary, I wouldn't bother.
Not the one you posted the question to but hope this helps.

Tax efficiency increases yes due to FEIE But remember IRS Consideres all non cash compensation as income so it adds up..

Your kids go to US school in Dubai? Cost 50K ? Cool employer covers that super nice, and guess what 50K is added to your income..business clas tickets? Cool 2k usd per person per year for a family of 4 that's 8k usd..these things add up so a person making 200k may actually *get* another 120 or 150k in hypothetical income makes sense?? 🤓

Housing too, and any other compensation like internet bill, cell fone, car rental allowance middle east you are spoilt with all these fancy allowances..

Which we can only ever dream of in USA!..so that's why hopefully your employer covers this hypothetical tax burden hope this clears?

Also you can do 401K even whilst claiming FEIE But double check IANAL But you can't if you work for a local employer.

And if you work for Local NOn US based employee No SS Tax or Medicare But your accrued time of 10 years on US won't be nullified you just won't get the added years of middle eastern years added to SS credit unless its US based employer.
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PhinanceMD
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Makes sense, so all the “perks” are added on as taxable income, interesting. Good to know 401K is possible if US based company. I would assume hospitals are non-US based companies so I would not have to pay SS/Medicare nor be able to do a 401K. Thx again.
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Dude2
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Dude2 »

elderwise wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:23 pm Not the one you posted the question to but hope this helps.

Tax efficiency increases yes due to FEIE But remember IRS Consideres all non cash compensation as income so it adds up..

Your kids go to US school in Dubai? Cost 50K ? Cool employer covers that super nice, and guess what 50K is added to your income..business clas tickets? Cool 2k usd per person per year for a family of 4 that's 8k usd..these things add up so a person making 200k may actually *get* another 120 or 150k in hypothetical income makes sense?? 🤓

Housing too, and any other compensation like internet bill, cell fone, car rental allowance middle east you are spoilt with all these fancy allowances..

Which we can only ever dream of in USA!..so that's why hopefully your employer covers this hypothetical tax burden hope this clears?

Also you can do 401K even whilst claiming FEIE But double check IANAL But you can't if you work for a local employer.

And if you work for Local NOn US based employee No SS Tax or Medicare But your accrued time of 10 years on US won't be nullified you just won't get the added years of middle eastern years added to SS credit unless its US based employer.
Thanks for the assist, elderwise.

So, I'm not trying to claim that a dollars and cents analysis yields a final answer on paper that says you must earn 2X to make the situation worthwhile. Not at all. I'm just saying that from my own personal experience having to deal with the UAE, I would not take the plunge again for less than 2X (an arbitrary number that rounds off easily). Currently, I could go back there for about a 30% bump. Not worth it to me. Anybody will have to live it themselves to see if they ultimately agree. The ex-PAT math works out best for people if you maintain no ties back to your home country. You don't want to be supporting two households in other words.

There are plenty of other posts on these subjects that go into aspects. I'm not trying to tear the place down, but suffice it to say that people want to emigrate to western/developed countries, not to the ME. There are reasons. You can round off all the sharp edges and make everything in the house baby friendly, but you aren't going to change that fundamental.

To clarify, as pointed out, my employer is US-based, so I do have to pay SS + FICA. If my employer's "home base" was in a US state with state tax, I would also have to pay that, despite being overseas. Those things may not affect you if you go work for a non-US entity overseas.

Not to beat a dead horse, but yes, many of the perks the employer may/may not provide can be considered taxable income.

Further, the FEIE is a pain. The no greater than 30 days back in the US is a big inconvenience. In some cases it may take an additional tax year for the exception to catch up to you, not that you don't get what are entitled, just that it can be a slow boat on the taxes. You can get the exemption after you cross the 12 month overseas mark. That may not happen until the next tax year. You may have options for filing the return late or not. You may come back to the US years later, and still deal with all of it for the next one or two tax years.

The other clarification would be that, let's say you make 500k a year and go into the (whatever) 33% tax bracket. The FEIE does not lower your tax bracket. It lowers the tax, but don't get the mistaken impression that by taking a deduction for FEIE you will be in the 0% bracket and subject to no taxes or other benefits associated with that.

I hope that helps just to be more clear and factual. I'm sure you'll be perfectly safe if you do it. You may or may not like it. I suspect that the level of medical sophistication and organization in the US will trounce what you'd find there, and so that may be a bit of a culture shock. There is a high level of smoke and mirrors to a place like this. Things may appear a certain way, but the reality is quite different. You will not change the world going there, you will be a worker like everyone else. There is a central authority that drives things.
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
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PhinanceMD
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

Dude2, thank you for your honesty and education, lots to think about. You’re right, once the outer layers are peeled off (of the offer, the tax, the country, the politics/central authority), there are some real concerns we have to consider, this does give me pause. Cheers and thanks again. :sharebeer
60/30/10
Dude2
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by Dude2 »

Phinance wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:09 am Dude2, thank you for your honesty and education, lots to think about. You’re right, once the outer layers are peeled off (of the offer, the tax, the country, the politics/central authority), there are some real concerns we have to consider, this does give me pause. Cheers and thanks again. :sharebeer
Just one final note, and that is to be aware of this
https://www.detainedindubai.org/
for example. There have been many high profile legal (crime and punishment) type things that this website will discuss. Not saying it will matter to the vast majority, but you hear the stories of the small minority that got bit.
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
tioscrooge
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by tioscrooge »

Phinance wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 am Hi all, we are a 2 physician couple with 2 girls (2 year old, newborn) looking for a new adventure in ~2025. Currently living in Portland, OR. We are US Citizens but with an Arab and Turkish background (I’m fluent in Arabic, my wife is conversational in Turkish). I have visited Dubai a couple of times and am impressed by the growth, diversity, and improving infrastructure. A few questions:

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..)
-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US)
-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai?
-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?

Thank you in advance.
Don’t think anyone else mentioned this. If you leave from OR to Dubai, you will have to pay OR income tax on your income in Dubai. Read up on moving your domicile to a not tax state (wa) before you head overseas. There are boglehead threads on this topic.
Whether you think you can or you can not, you will be correct.
assyadh
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by assyadh »

tioscrooge wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:21 am
Phinance wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 am Hi all, we are a 2 physician couple with 2 girls (2 year old, newborn) looking for a new adventure in ~2025. Currently living in Portland, OR. We are US Citizens but with an Arab and Turkish background (I’m fluent in Arabic, my wife is conversational in Turkish). I have visited Dubai a couple of times and am impressed by the growth, diversity, and improving infrastructure. A few questions:

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..)
-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US)
-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai?
-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?

Thank you in advance.
Don’t think anyone else mentioned this. If you leave from OR to Dubai, you will have to pay OR income tax on your income in Dubai. Read up on moving your domicile to a not tax state (wa) before you head overseas. There are boglehead threads on this topic.
The UAE doesn't have personal income tax.
tioscrooge
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by tioscrooge »

Yes, UAE does not have personal income tax.
I am talking about OP's state of residence - Oregon.
When someone leaves US and goes overseas, the state income tax on that foreign income may still apply.
Here is an older thread where a member stated:
viewtopic.php?t=90214

"I'm a US citizen who is not a "resident" of any state, but for tax purposes I'm considered "tax domiciled" in California and forced to file state taxes as a California Non-Resident."

There are also ways people change their tax domicile before going overseas and each state has different rules. OP should review the rules for OR.
Whether you think you can or you can not, you will be correct.
locke1141
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by locke1141 »

I think the questions have been answered, but I live in AD and I love it, so I’ll pile in too. Childless adult, one of the lucky ones working out at the reactor.

- Schools - no personal experience, but my coworkers have kids of all ages going to schools in AD and Dubai and are satisfied. One’s daughter just got accepted to Purdue for what that’s worth.
- Taxes - I had a retired PWC accountant I knew help me with my first return for $600. Once you have an example, you could do it on your own. My return is complicated by foreign tax credit carryover, FEIE should be straightforward for you.
- My “allowances” are equal to my basic income. You’ll need salary plus allowances to fully evaluate the offer. Housing allowance has a separate FEIE exemption amount so it’s useful to break that out when doing taxes.
- Someone said they don’t drive here. I think traffic is very orderly and find it much less stressful here than US. I’ve had two speeding tickets and that’s it. Dubai is busier than AD. Insurance is cheaper than US. Use Waze to navigate and don’t speed in AD.
- Materialism - sure, the Emiratis will flex occasionally. Most expats are here to save money and send it home, so you’ll see both sides of it. The service worker expats are relatively low income and do not have many dirhams to spare at all.
- Favoritism - yes, somewhat. Just basic behaviors like time, attendance and production aren’t evenly enforced. That said, I don’t have a real issue with it. I come to work on time, do my work well, and collect overtime if I want. The real favoritism is between expat groups - as Americans, you’ll be top of the heap.
- The country is opening up year after year. There’s a casino coming to Ras Al Khaimah, and Caesars Palace in Dubai may get a gaming permit at that time too. Ramadan was very understated this year - no blackout curtains in AD, minor modification in restaurant hours but otherwise business as usual. No liquor licenses in AD anymore, and there are wine beer and spirit shops peppered around the city. Restaurants with alcohol that aren’t attached to hotels are cropping up, and there’s a few out there with pork licenses also.
- The weather is still mild (to me) and hasn’t turned just yet. I’m hoping this doesn’t mean summer will linger on the back-end. I didn’t go out much in winter in my cold snowy NE state, so my indoor time is simply inverted here. I had some indoor hobbies to begin with, so I do not mind.
- As for scary stories - if you really do something stupid, they will toss you out. My company has two scary stories, and both people deserved it.
- phone number - port your US number to Google voice. You can get 2FA messages that way to your normal US number. I use a family address for US account mailings.

Come to Cleveland Clinic (in AD)! I was not impressed with my first primary care visit there. Please bring your American-style medical practices with you, I’d appreciate it at least! See you in 2025, inshallah!
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PhinanceMD
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by PhinanceMD »

This blows my mind. If I leave the US (Oregon) for UAE, I’m still domiciled in Oregon and have to pay state taxes? Federal I completely understand given the bizarre US worldwide income. Can someone verify state please? that seems like insanity. Thank you in advance for the heads up.

tioscrooge wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:21 am
Phinance wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:10 am Hi all, we are a 2 physician couple with 2 girls (2 year old, newborn) looking for a new adventure in ~2025. Currently living in Portland, OR. We are US Citizens but with an Arab and Turkish background (I’m fluent in Arabic, my wife is conversational in Turkish). I have visited Dubai a couple of times and am impressed by the growth, diversity, and improving infrastructure. A few questions:

-What is education like in Dubai assuming we want bilingual schools (cost, quality etc..)
-What are medical job opportunities like in Dubai? (Salaries, benefits etc. compared to US)
-Heard summer weather is horrifically hot and humid, is it May through Sept? What do people do then?
-We don’t like excessive materialism, I know there is a lot of that in Dubai, are there neighborhoods that are less so, more family oriented etc..
-Can someone explain how one files taxes as a US citizen living in Dubai?
-Any noticeable favoritism noticed between Emirati and non-Emirati residents?

Thank you in advance.
Don’t think anyone else mentioned this. If you leave from OR to Dubai, you will have to pay OR income tax on your income in Dubai. Read up on moving your domicile to a not tax state (wa) before you head overseas. There are boglehead threads on this topic.
60/30/10
rarora
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

Post by rarora »

Dear Phinance MD,
I am a fellow US Physician , here in job for almost a decade. I must thank you for starting this post as I am in a very similar situation now. Did you guys end up taking the job in Dubai, and if so how is it so far.
I just joined this forum, is there a way to talk offline.
Will appreciate all the advice.
Cheers !
-RA
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Re: Recommend Dubai for 2 US physicians?

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