Evaluating private school

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DTL123
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by DTL123 »

I have put 2 kids through private school (26 years total including Kindergarten at around an average of 25K per year per child) and have a third that is in 10th grade and has been at that same school since KG. There are plenty of people on this forum who will tell you their public school is just as good and costs nothing (beyond taxes we all pay). To each his own but you do get what you pay for and I would ask myself why all of these generally successful people pay for the private school when they have a "free" public option across the street. From there, you can decide if it makes sense for you and your family. Generally people who cannot, do not or will not pay for private school have already rationalized and convinced themselves that they are making a good choice and the same is true for those who do pay for private school. Again, you just have to decide which camp you want to be in but I would suggest those that pay for private school over a long period of time are not doing so just to pay for the same thing they could get for "free" across the street.
Journeyman510
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Journeyman510 »

TXGator wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:12 pm Another thing to consider that folks have quickly forgotten was how the private school response to COVID reopening was vs the area public schools. That action alone in fall of 2020 made our private school decision worth every penny.
Yeah, totally forgot about that. Our private school handledcovid very well. Our friends in public school were so disappointed that many of them pulled their kids out of the district.
stoptothink
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by stoptothink »

DTL123 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:49 pm I have put 2 kids through private school (26 years total including Kindergarten at around an average of 25K per year per child) and have a third that is in 10th grade and has been at that same school since KG. There are plenty of people on this forum who will tell you their public school is just as good and costs nothing (beyond taxes we all pay). To each his own but you do get what you pay for and I would ask myself why all of these generally successful people pay for the private school when they have a "free" public option across the street. From there, you can decide if it makes sense for you and your family. Generally people who cannot, do not or will not pay for private school have already rationalized and convinced themselves that they are making a good choice and the same is true for those who do pay for private school. Again, you just have to decide which camp you want to be in but I would suggest those that pay for private school over a long period of time are not doing so just to pay for the same thing they could get for "free" across the street.
It's no different than paying full-freight for an expensive private school when the state's top public is a fraction of the cost. To some, it may be worth it (for various reasons) and for others it just doesn't make any sense; depends on a countless number of factors. With my experience, I lean towards private school making no sense for our family, but our family is not yours.
PFOS
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by PFOS »

DTL123 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:49 pm I have put 2 kids through private school (26 years total including Kindergarten at around an average of 25K per year per child) and have a third that is in 10th grade and has been at that same school since KG. There are plenty of people on this forum who will tell you their public school is just as good and costs nothing (beyond taxes we all pay). To each his own but you do get what you pay for and I would ask myself why all of these generally successful people pay for the private school when they have a "free" public option across the street. From there, you can decide if it makes sense for you and your family. Generally people who cannot, do not or will not pay for private school have already rationalized and convinced themselves that they are making a good choice and the same is true for those who do pay for private school. Again, you just have to decide which camp you want to be in but I would suggest those that pay for private school over a long period of time are not doing so just to pay for the same thing they could get for "free" across the street.
I would argue that the "generally successful people [who] pay for the private school" have better outcomes on average for their kids because of the "generally successful" part, not the "pay for the private school" part. But I definitely agree with you on the public school vs private school camps. Every kid and situation is different and we all know our individual situations the best.
Last edited by PFOS on Wed May 18, 2022 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mecht3ach
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by mecht3ach »

dred pirate wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm as researcher - I have to use the term "selection bias" when comparing private school student outcomes vs if that same student went to a public school.
<snip>
One other thing to mention here is that legacy admit rates play a serious role at a lot of the schools that OP listed for the recent grads. Both of our children are in private school (one that is consistently ranked among the best in the country, for reference); my spouse and I were both public school kids our whole lives, so there was a lot of soul-searching attached to that decision, but ultimately I am glad that we did it, for a number of the reasons listed above.

However, getting into a good college should not be one of those reasons. Our oldest is a senior, and if you look at the # of students going on to HYPSM (or HYPSM+) schools, it is a shockingly high number. However, we know all of those kids, and there are 2 out of a graduating class of 200 who were admitted to those schools who were 'unhooked.' The rest either had a parent (or multiple parents) who went there (the majority of the admits) or were a recruited athlete.
MMiroir
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by MMiroir »

DTL123 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:49 pm I have put 2 kids through private school (26 years total including Kindergarten at around an average of 25K per year per child) and have a third that is in 10th grade and has been at that same school since KG. There are plenty of people on this forum who will tell you their public school is just as good and costs nothing (beyond taxes we all pay). To each his own but you do get what you pay for and I would ask myself why all of these generally successful people pay for the private school when they have a "free" public option across the street. From there, you can decide if it makes sense for you and your family. Generally people who cannot, do not or will not pay for private school have already rationalized and convinced themselves that they are making a good choice and the same is true for those who do pay for private school. Again, you just have to decide which camp you want to be in but I would suggest those that pay for private school over a long period of time are not doing so just to pay for the same thing they could get for "free" across the street.
The balance between public and private schools will vary from district to district. In our metro area, there are about a dozen high quality suburban public high school districts. Among suburban private high schools, there are only two suburban private schools that are competitive with these publics in terms of academics. The majority of private schools in our area are religious in nature, and they appeal to parents who are looking for a specific religious instruction and not necessarily the best overall academics. We know some families that choose a smaller private school because sports was less competitive than the large publics and it was easier get on the varsity team. One is throwing money away if they assume that since private schools cost $25,000 a year, it is automatically worth it.
Last edited by MMiroir on Wed May 18, 2022 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
psteinx
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by psteinx »

stoptothink wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:54 pm It's no different than paying full-freight for an expensive private school when the state's top public is a fraction of the cost. To some, it may be worth it (for various reasons) and for others it just doesn't make any sense; depends on a countless number of factors. With my experience, I lean towards private school making no sense for our family, but our family is not yours.
There are some differences, including:

1) At the K-12 level, for most of us in urban/suburban areas, the local elementary/middle/HS is within ~4 miles, often closer to 1-2. With school busses generally available. High end privates, unless you're fortunately located, will be more like 5-15 miles away, without bus service. More hassle to get your kid to and from school each day (~2 roundtrips/day), and more difficulty socializing with their school friends at off times/weekends.

Whereas, with colleges, your local flagship may be 50-150 miles away, and your private alternative 50-500 miles away. Yes, the distances for the latter may be larger, but in any case, they're likely living with their peers throughout the school year, and the extra mileage penalty is only paid a few times a year rather than a couple times a day...

2) I think there's more justification for increasing stratification of students by academic ability and interest, as they get older. Sure, a 95th or 99th percentile 2nd grader would benefit from similarly smart classmates (versus, say, 60th percentile), but the degree of benefit is likely significantly greater at 10th grade or college level. And all 2nd graders mostly do the same tasks, whereas that's clearly untrue at the university level, and while flagships are usually big, they're often lacking in certain specializations. For instance, engineering-oriented students are often steered to a smaller secondary state university that may lack many of the features and benefits of the flagship.

3) While fancy private HSs are cheaper than fancy private colleges, the SPREAD (private minus public) is not quite so much, and K-12 is 13 years of school versus ~4 years of undergrad.

4) It's easier for parents to supplement the academic needs of advanced K-6 (and, to a lesser extent 7-12) grade kids who are performing above peer norms, but harder to do for college, if kid is at a college "below" their ability level.
OnceARunner
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by OnceARunner »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes. This is according to Greatschools and Niche.

My only concern is the school is relatively new, EST 2013. I spoke to few parents who are sending their kids there and they like it a lot. I sent my kids for 2 days as evaluation they too liked it and it seems their syllabus is what we are looking for.

Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
schooldigger.com is more accurate than greatschools or Niche in my experience as an educator.
Big Dog
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Big Dog »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm
Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
I'm a fan of USNews' ratings.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-h ... l-rankings
joemxn
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by joemxn »

I believe Niche just gets their list of schools that graduates go to from user submissions. So it probably misses a lot.

Better to get a list from the actual school itself for their most recent graduating class. All private schools have this readily available and its a common ask.
dred pirate
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dred pirate »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:17 pm
dred pirate wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm as researcher - I have to use the term "selection bias" when comparing private school student outcomes vs if that same student went to a public school.
Obviously there are always outliers here, but in most places it is more of a status symbol vs actually providing the child with better outcomes.
This comes from someone who did 8 years private college - the first four were only marginally more expensive than state school- the other four were a mistake - I should have gone to the flagship state school for graduate school - that decision cost me probably an extra 10 years of student loan payments.
I am asking about K-12. And I have no qualms going to a good state school flagship campus.
I know you were- and I am not anti-private school by any means- but I just caution people to be careful when just looking at college admission rates of private school vs public schools. By the nature of being selective they are often weeding out (for lack of a better term) the students on the bottom half of the class, and parents who are not as involved, etc. If you put many of those exact same students in their assigned public school, the vast majority of the time they would end up in the same place upon graduation.

I don't fault anyone for wanting the best for their child -I definitely do as well. But it is the same argument as charter schools here in NC. They claim to have better test scores, etc. But they select out the uninvolved parents and parents with less means, even though they don't charge. Something simple as they don't have to provide busing, eliminated a good chunk of the lower income parents (not that low income = poor performing, I for example grew up poor as dirt, but for a variety of reasons was able to climb out of poverty).
jgalt133
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by jgalt133 »

Another factor regarding private school that I have always wondered about. Some kids will need support services (e.g., if they have hearing loss, language delay, socio-emotional issues, etc.). Most large public school systems offer these services. Do private schools offer support services such as ASL interpreters, assistive listening devices (e.g., FM systems), speech-language pathologists and/or mental health counselors? I do know that there's a private school in my area that specializes in twice-exceptional children, but that is not the "typical" private school.
dred pirate
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dred pirate »

jgalt133 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:08 pm Another factor regarding private school that I have always wondered about. Some kids will need support services (e.g., if they have hearing loss, language delay, socio-emotional issues, etc.). Most large public school systems offer these services. Do private schools offer support services such as ASL interpreters, assistive listening devices (e.g., FM systems), speech-language pathologists and/or mental health counselors? I do know that there's a private school in my area that specializes in twice-exceptional children, but that is not the "typical" private school.
most do not (or at reduced access)- I am guessing those that are faith based are more likely to thou. Again, look back at my "selection bias" comment.
Firemenot
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Firemenot »

jgalt133 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:08 pm Another factor regarding private school that I have always wondered about. Some kids will need support services (e.g., if they have hearing loss, language delay, socio-emotional issues, etc.). Most large public school systems offer these services. Do private schools offer support services such as ASL interpreters, assistive listening devices (e.g., FM systems), speech-language pathologists and/or mental health counselors? I do know that there's a private school in my area that specializes in twice-exceptional children, but that is not the "typical" private school.
It totally depends on the private school and area. But unlike public schools, private school are not legally required to do so. In some areas, the local public schools are still required to provide such services even if the child is enrolled in a private school. In some areas, local public schools are also required to allow private and/or homeschooled kids to participate in their after-school sports programs.

One of my daughters has special needs and has an IEP. One private school said no to her based on that and another private school openly welcomed her and didn’t care at all.
Misenplace
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Misenplace »

A post and a couple of replies about Covid and mask policies that threatened to derail the thread into political/medical discussions have been removed. Please also note this announcement in the Forum Administration thread:

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jgalt133
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by jgalt133 »

Firemenot wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 pm
jgalt133 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:08 pm Another factor regarding private school that I have always wondered about. Some kids will need support services (e.g., if they have hearing loss, language delay, socio-emotional issues, etc.). Most large public school systems offer these services. Do private schools offer support services such as ASL interpreters, assistive listening devices (e.g., FM systems), speech-language pathologists and/or mental health counselors? I do know that there's a private school in my area that specializes in twice-exceptional children, but that is not the "typical" private school.
It totally depends on the private school and area. But unlike public schools, private school are not legally required to do so.

One of my daughters has special needs and has an IEP. One private school said no to her based on that and another private school openly welcomed her and didn’t care at all.
Interesting. I was under the impression that only religious schools were exempt from the Americans with Disabilities Act. All other private schools are required to provide reasonable accommodations unless the school can demonstrate that it would be an undue burden (i.e., significant difficulty or expense). Depending on the nature of your daughter's needs, the private school (assuming it was nonsectarian) that said no may have violated the ADA.

I realize my original question was more open-ended, but after thinking about it a bit and doing some research, I came to the understanding that private schools are required to do so (with some exceptions). Unfortunately, it's often the case that the parent must fight for these services and sometimes the effort is not worth it (as compared to a public school that already has the staff and resources to implement an IEP).
dred pirate
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dred pirate »

jgalt133 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:21 pm
Firemenot wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:18 pm
jgalt133 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:08 pm Another factor regarding private school that I have always wondered about. Some kids will need support services (e.g., if they have hearing loss, language delay, socio-emotional issues, etc.). Most large public school systems offer these services. Do private schools offer support services such as ASL interpreters, assistive listening devices (e.g., FM systems), speech-language pathologists and/or mental health counselors? I do know that there's a private school in my area that specializes in twice-exceptional children, but that is not the "typical" private school.
It totally depends on the private school and area. But unlike public schools, private school are not legally required to do so.

One of my daughters has special needs and has an IEP. One private school said no to her based on that and another private school openly welcomed her and didn’t care at all.
Interesting. I was under the impression that only religious schools were exempt from the Americans with Disabilities Act. All other private schools are required to provide reasonable accommodations unless the school can demonstrate that it would be an undue burden (i.e., significant difficulty or expense). Depending on the nature of your daughter's needs, the private school (assuming it was nonsectarian) that said no may have violated the ADA.

I realize my original question was more open-ended, but after thinking about it a bit and doing some research, I came to the understanding that private schools are required to do so (with some exceptions). Unfortunately, it's often the case that the parent must fight for these services and sometimes the effort is not worth it (as compared to a public school that already has the staff and resources to implement an IEP).
I am not an expert in this area, but I think there is a difference in being ADA compliant (such as providing a ramp for a child that uses a wheelchair) and providing special education needs and other therapy needs/aids.
jgalt133
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by jgalt133 »

dred pirate wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:28 pm I am not an expert in this area, but I think there is a difference in being ADA compliant (such as providing a ramp for a child that uses a wheelchair) and providing special education needs and other therapy needs/aids.
Right. It's a complex issue. My overall contribution to this thread is meant to just remind parents that there may be shortcomings to a private school education if their child may have special needs or accessibility requirements. Whether or not the ADA requires the private school to offer accommodations depends on many factors. Even if the school is legally required to offer an accommodation, it may require great effort to get them to comply. I can speak from personal experience here. It is often the case that one must invest significant time and energy into educating the school of their obligations and then getting them to do a good job in meeting their obligations. Even if the school is willing, they may often need hand-holding if they have not had to deal with a similar situation in the past.
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes.
...
Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
Look them up among USA(J)MO/USAPhO/USNCO/USACO Platinum qualifiers (all public info). That is admittedly a high bar, as each of these lists are about 125 kids per school year, nationwide.

As a few notches below, look them up among AMC 10/12 Honor Roll and Distinguished Honor Roll honorees. If a STEM focused school is not well-represented there, it is a definite red sign.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
JPM
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by JPM »

DS1 and DS2 went to religious private HS. Nothing Special HS. Each still went to a top 10 undergrad. They were smart, ambitious, and their Nothing-Special HS prepared them adequately to be successful in a competitive undergrad program.

DD was another thing entirely. As a young child she meant to show us we couldn't push her or persuade her to make any effort in grade school and that she would go her own way no matter what we thought. She was promptly dropped from the grade-school gifted programs for lack of effort/performance. By the time we were shopping for high schools, she saw that her older brothers' lives were developing well due to their educations and told us she had changed her mind about studying and making the effort. Problem was, being relegated to the average classes for middle school and jr high, she had a weak basic background, especially in math. DW's teacher friends recommended we consider Hoity-Toity HS private two towns over from our home because the teachers were especially good there and the classes were especially small.

We went for the open house there and indeed the classes were of 7-8 students. I didn't expect them to get her into Princeton, just to adequately prepare her for college. Even the most shrinking of violets can't hide in that small class environment. The teachers saw their job as making sure the students mastered the subject and with small classes they always knew whether the student was mastering the material or not. Altho it cost 3x what Nothing-Special HS cost, after talking to the teachers there we went ahead and enrolled DD. It worked out as advertised. DD made some friends, played 3 sports, did well academically, and was ready for college upon graduation. She wanted to go to a state flagship with a special program she wanted. The state flagship cost little more than Hoity-Toity HS. Now she works in tech out west and fights with her bosses instead of us.

Not everybody's idea of a remedial HS program, but it worked for DD.
RJC
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by RJC »

If you are looking purely at outcomes (meaning landing the top jobs), there really isn't a statistical difference between going to private and public undergraduate colleges.
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

RJC wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:08 pm If you are looking purely at outcomes (meaning landing the top jobs), there really isn't a statistical difference between going to private and public undergraduate colleges.
My good outcome is, going to a well regarded 4 year college.
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

JPM wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:00 pm DS1 and DS2 went to religious private HS. Nothing Special HS. Each still went to a top 10 undergrad. They were smart, ambitious, and their Nothing-Special HS prepared them adequately to be successful in a competitive undergrad program.

DD was another thing entirely. As a young child she meant to show us we couldn't push her or persuade her to make any effort in grade school and that she would go her own way no matter what we thought. She was promptly dropped from the grade-school gifted programs for lack of effort/performance. By the time we were shopping for high schools, she saw that her older brothers' lives were developing well due to their educations and told us she had changed her mind about studying and making the effort. Problem was, being relegated to the average classes for middle school and jr high, she had a weak basic background, especially in math. DW's teacher friends recommended we consider Hoity-Toity HS private two towns over from our home because the teachers were especially good there and the classes were especially small.

We went for the open house there and indeed the classes were of 7-8 students. I didn't expect them to get her into Princeton, just to adequately prepare her for college. Even the most shrinking of violets can't hide in that small class environment. The teachers saw their job as making sure the students mastered the subject and with small classes they always knew whether the student was mastering the material or not. Altho it cost 3x what Nothing-Special HS cost, after talking to the teachers there we went ahead and enrolled DD. It worked out as advertised. DD made some friends, played 3 sports, did well academically, and was ready for college upon graduation. She wanted to go to a state flagship with a special program she wanted. The state flagship cost little more than Hoity-Toity HS. Now she works in tech out west and fights with her bosses instead of us.

Not everybody's idea of a remedial HS program, but it worked for DD.
What state is Hoity-Toity highschool in?
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

Vulcan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:43 pm
keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes.
...
Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
Look them up among USA(J)MO/USAPhO/USNCO/USACO Platinum qualifiers (all public info). That is admittedly a high bar, as each of these lists are about 125 kids per school year, nationwide.

As a few notches below, look them up among AMC 10/12 Honor Roll and Distinguished Honor Roll honorees. If a STEM focused school is not well-represented there, it is a definite red sign.
Not in that calibre.
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

mecht3ach wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 1:39 pm
dred pirate wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:15 pm as researcher - I have to use the term "selection bias" when comparing private school student outcomes vs if that same student went to a public school.
<snip>
One other thing to mention here is that legacy admit rates play a serious role at a lot of the schools that OP listed for the recent grads. Both of our children are in private school (one that is consistently ranked among the best in the country, for reference); my spouse and I were both public school kids our whole lives, so there was a lot of soul-searching attached to that decision, but ultimately I am glad that we did it, for a number of the reasons listed above.

However, getting into a good college should not be one of those reasons. Our oldest is a senior, and if you look at the # of students going on to HYPSM (or HYPSM+) schools, it is a shockingly high number. However, we know all of those kids, and there are 2 out of a graduating class of 200 who were admitted to those schools who were 'unhooked.' The rest either had a parent (or multiple parents) who went there (the majority of the admits) or were a recruited athlete.
There is no legacy in this highschool. Its relatively new
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

OnceARunner wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:58 pm
keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes. This is according to Greatschools and Niche.

My only concern is the school is relatively new, EST 2013. I spoke to few parents who are sending their kids there and they like it a lot. I sent my kids for 2 days as evaluation they too liked it and it seems their syllabus is what we are looking for.

Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
schooldigger.com is more accurate than greatschools or Niche in my experience as an educator.
Thankyou, not in school digger.
Galt guy
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Galt guy »

Household income and parental involvement are the greatest predictors of a child's "success." My wife is a teacher. I was a doofus making $45,000 a year, but our household income was still higher than our community's average when our two were born. We read to our children from the moment they could focus their eyes and fed their curiosity, challenged their minds with puzzles and games and had them in music programs (which they enjoyed) for many years to connect brain neurons. They became avid readers. They attended nothing but public schools, including UC Berkeley, and earned their bachelor's degrees with math majors.

If you want them in private school, go for it. I think parents who place their children in private schools are, by definition, involved, but you can also do that in public schools.
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keith6014
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by keith6014 »

keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:58 pm
Vulcan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:43 pm
keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:43 pm Thinking of sending 2 kids to STEM focused private school (1st to 12th) and we like a particular school because of outcomes.
...
Besides parents, Greatschools and Niche are there any other sites to validate the (new) school's reputation?
Look them up among USA(J)MO/USAPhO/USNCO/USACO Platinum qualifiers (all public info). That is admittedly a high bar, as each of these lists are about 125 kids per school year, nationwide.

As a few notches below, look them up among AMC 10/12 Honor Roll and Distinguished Honor Roll honorees. If a STEM focused school is not well-represented there, it is a definite red sign.
Not in that calibre.
I take the comment back. There are few kids in AMC 10/12, AIME, USAJMO, USAMO. 6 to be exact.
2pedals
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by 2pedals »

Just be careful you have enough resources and money to support them both K-12 and the college of their choice. My parents only fully supported my oldest brother's private college. When it came to me (the last child of several), they wouldn't do the same. :oops:

If you do have enough it's not really a private versus public choice and not a ROI. It's a school, x, y or z choice for your kid. In most situations when parents have limited funds, I think it's better to save the money for college expenses.
eagleeyes
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by eagleeyes »

I was always in the public school camp. Grew up in public schools. Brothers all did as well. All very well to do

When it came time for my kid to go to school we were still leaning public. But the recent political climate really changed our minds. My kids private school is quite diverse, more so than the public schools which service our neighborhoods. This is fantastic. They celebrate many different holidays at the school. The kids learn about cultures. Race and diversity is taught and valued

Also, after watching parents at school board meetings during the pandemic absolutely lose their minds about having kids mask, that was it. We decided private and never looked back.

Now, watching our state cut books from curriculum, particularly those about racism, diversity, history, we are even more thankful to have made the private decision.

I think in a different city in a different state we could have gone public. But not here in the south.
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:56 am When we were moving our son out of the public school, we needed a recommendation for his new private. So, we booked a meeting with his counselor. She said that she had many students, so please remind her who our son was.

This is of course the same counselor who told us that we were biased as parents in asking for our son to be reevaluated after his being tracked with an almost remedial math group. I guess the DMV wasn’t hiring that week when she applied for the counselor position.
When our elder was entering middle school, based on a placement test administered at the end of 6th grade, he was placed into pre-algebra instead of Algebra I we were expecting.

We fought the entire summer with the school and district administration, all the while being placated and fed platitudes about him not having demonstrated algebraic thinking and thus being placed properly. We are not typically pushy like that, but know our kid, who we taught basic algebra before he even entered kindergarten, and knew something was off, and they finally relented and agreed to retest him.

They gave him some test they test high schoolers with, and lo and behold, he aced it. Then, for giggles, they gave him the same middle school placement test. And he made same exact mistakes. So we took a look at that test together with district math specialist. And, wouldn't you know it? They had wrong answers, not him.

He had since proceeded to become one of the small handful of top math kids in the state, and is now one of the top CS students at MIT. His first-author high school research paper was published in a Springer journal, and another paper solving an open problem in theoretical CS that he co-authored after freshman year, and for the contributions of which he is principally responsible, has just been accepted to world's top conference in the field.

So, yeah, the educators don't always know what's best for your child. That's their parents' responsibility. As is, ultimately, their education.
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:13 pm The day will come when your child will thank you.
:sharebeer
Last edited by Vulcan on Wed May 18, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
dboeger1
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dboeger1 »

OP, how are you defining "outcomes"? If you're specifically referring to the quality of education, despite being somewhat subjective based on personal preferences, it's also easier to evaluate on an objective basis, because you can directly observe how the school operates. If by "outcomes" you mean college acceptance, I'm not saying school doesn't matter, but be very careful equating higher-ranked school to better chance higher-ranked college.

One big reason for this is that college admissions are generally pretty opaque and subject to change, especially over long time horizons, so everyone's ultimately just guessing what will get them accepted. I was shocked to learn from a coworker with college-aged kids that lots of colleges are no longer requiring SAT/ACT scores for admissions. I understand the reasons, especially given the pandemic's disruptions to education, but it still seems problematic to me, and I imagine there were lots of highly-ranked students who prepared primarily for standardized tests only to find they were no longer as much of a factor.

A related point is that college admission decisions are clearly not based on the same universal criteria for all students. This is not just limited to the usual headline-grabbing issues like race or gender, but they also accept students based on filling various majors and departments, socioeconomic diversity, unique experiences, geography, etc. So you can't really say for sure whether a particular school choice is going to have much of an impact when applying. For example, I got into a top-tier university that was very selective despite many, many applicants being significantly more qualified than me, likely due to the combination of being a mixed-race minority, financially disadvantaged, and graduating valedictorian from a poorly ranked school system that had never sent a student to a top-tier university before. Although it wasn't a condition of my acceptance, I was also invited to a Summer program between my senior year of high school and freshman year of college to help bridge the gap. I didn't know it at the time, but thank goodness I participated because it was very rigorous and intense compared to my high school studies and I most likely would not have been successful at that school if it was not for that initial experience. The point is that I realize I was something of a charity case, so going to a private school (which my parents considered back when we had money) might not have actually helped.

Speaking of graduating valedictorian from high school, I have to imagine that relative student rankings within a school system are as big of a factor, if not bigger, than raw performance (if there is such a thing, especially with the decline of standardized testing). There was a kid in my school system growing up who was notorious for being an overachiever, but not a humble one like me, more like super aggressive about maximizing every opportunity, kind of like the equivalent of a finance nerd who salivates at the opportunity to max out the mega backdoor Roth because they like to stick it to Uncle Sam (I'm kind of poking fun at myself here, so please take no offense). Anyway, when we were in middle school, the district opened up a new school similar to what you described with a STEM focus, and they had a representative promoting this new school and trying to get people to sign up for its first class. We all joked that this particular student would be the first to sign up, and sure enough, he ran right home and gave his parents the pamphlet and they immediately signed him up for it expecting better "outcomes". I didn't see him again until senior year when we happened to bump into each other at the SAT testing center, so we exchanged numbers and agreed to meet up and talk about which universities we would eventually get accepted to. That's when I learned that we had the same dream goal. Eventually, I got in and he didn't. Now, to be clear, I know nothing about his performance, only that he went to this special new school expecting it to increase his chances of getting into his dream school. But it's interesting that I got in and he didn't. He was always a top student, and there's a decent chance he would've graduated valedictorian had he stayed.

Lastly, I know people talk about paying for better education from a private school and all the benefits associated with that, but remember that money can also buy other things like books, certifications, vacations abroad, tutoring, lessons, computers, equipment, etc. If you can afford private school, you can also afford to give your child the most comfortable, rewarding school experience of any student in the public school, so that's really what you should be comparing against, not apples-to-apples average test scores and the other usual metrics.

With all that having been said, do I think private schools improve acceptance rates to top universities? Yes, probably. The vast majority of my university classmates were from private schools or very well-known elite magnet public schools. Of the remainder, a significant portion were foreign students. Only a very small portion came from run-of-the-mill small-town American schools. I just don't know that paying for a private school is the obvious slam dunk it seems like based on those figures, because either public or private could end up being a better fit for your child overall, and academic performance is only one facet of a well-balanced school life.
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:27 pm
keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:58 pm
Vulcan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:43 pm Look them up among USA(J)MO/USAPhO/USNCO/USACO Platinum qualifiers (all public info). That is admittedly a high bar, as each of these lists are about 125 kids per school year, nationwide.

As a few notches below, look them up among AMC 10/12 Honor Roll and Distinguished Honor Roll honorees. If a STEM focused school is not well-represented there, it is a definite red sign.
Not in that calibre.
I take the comment back. There are few kids in AMC 10/12, AIME, USAJMO, USAMO. 6 to be exact.
That's good. Now, I want to be very clear: the school had likely very little to do with this. Kids at this level learn at home, on their own time.

But it's a good upper bound indicator of overall peer quality.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

dboeger1 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:22 pm OP, how are you defining "outcomes"? If you're specifically referring to the quality of education, despite being somewhat subjective based on personal preferences, it's also easier to evaluate on an objective basis, because you can directly observe how the school operates. If by "outcomes" you mean college acceptance, I'm not saying school doesn't matter, but be very careful equating higher-ranked school to better chance higher-ranked college.

One big reason for this is that college admissions are generally pretty opaque and subject to change, especially over long time horizons, so everyone's ultimately just guessing what will get them accepted.
[]
An excellent post.

Don't try to plan your kids' educational trajectory around trying to get into top colleges.

A great interview with Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/a ... with-aops/

"I know that’s just an incredibly generic answer, but for my entire career, I’ve been telling people that if you’re building your educational trajectory around the chance to get into an institution that last year had a 4% admit rate, you’re buying a lottery ticket that you’re probably not going to win. And so, I understand that people want to build around MIT, either because it’s a prestigious institution or because they genuinely think that it’s the best place for their child to be educated or both.

But my advice has always been, don’t build your or your child’s educational trajectory around trying to get into MIT or Harvard or Stanford or any other super selective institution. Find the things that they’re passionate about, find the things that they’re curious about. Let them pursue their own unique interests and aptitudes as far as it will take them. That will make them the most distinguished standout college applicant that they can be and it will also not leave them with major regrets about how they might have otherwise spent their time should their desire not come to pass."

He wrote about this back in 2010 in his seminal essay "Applying Sideways" that I didn't read until after our elder got in, and realized that it's been our own philosophy all along:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/a ... _sideways/
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
mecht3ach
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by mecht3ach »

keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 pm There is no legacy in this highschool. Its relatively new
Sorry that I wasn't clear - I didn't mean legacy admits into the high school, but rather that the college admits can sometimes be due to parental legacy at the universities. That is something we have seen.
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

mecht3ach wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:36 pm
keith6014 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 pm There is no legacy in this highschool. Its relatively new
Sorry that I wasn't clear - I didn't mean legacy admits into the high school, but rather that the college admits can sometimes be due to parental legacy at the universities. That is something we have seen.
Those top schools that "do legacy" (which is most) make no big secret of it.

Those few that do not, are very clear about it as well.

Here's another essay from the same Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

Just To Be Clear: We Don’t Do Legacy

"I want to reiterate that I agree wholeheartedly with everything Mr. Kahlenberg said about why legacy admissions are bad. I personally would not work for a college which had legacy admission because I am not interested in simply reproducing a multigenerational lineage of educated elite. And if anyone in our office ever advocated for a mediocre applicant on the basis of their “excellent pedigree” they would be kicked out of the committee room.

So to be clear: if you got into MIT, it’s because you got into MIT. Simple as that."
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by Vulcan »

DTL123 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:49 pm There are plenty of people on this forum who will tell you their public school is just as good and costs nothing (beyond taxes we all pay). To each his own but you do get what you pay for and I would ask myself why all of these generally successful people pay for the private school when they have a "free" public option across the street.
Where we live, people pay for private schools because their kids weren't able to get into the gifted & talented specialized programs.

With the likes of Stuyvesant & TJHS under attack across the nation this path is unfortunately becoming less and less of an option (don't want to venture into politics and get the thread locked, so won't say any more).
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
dboeger1
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dboeger1 »

Vulcan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:29 pm
dboeger1 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:22 pm OP, how are you defining "outcomes"? If you're specifically referring to the quality of education, despite being somewhat subjective based on personal preferences, it's also easier to evaluate on an objective basis, because you can directly observe how the school operates. If by "outcomes" you mean college acceptance, I'm not saying school doesn't matter, but be very careful equating higher-ranked school to better chance higher-ranked college.

One big reason for this is that college admissions are generally pretty opaque and subject to change, especially over long time horizons, so everyone's ultimately just guessing what will get them accepted.
[]
An excellent post.

Don't try to plan your kids' educational trajectory around trying to get into top colleges.

A great interview with Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/a ... with-aops/

"I know that’s just an incredibly generic answer, but for my entire career, I’ve been telling people that if you’re building your educational trajectory around the chance to get into an institution that last year had a 4% admit rate, you’re buying a lottery ticket that you’re probably not going to win. And so, I understand that people want to build around MIT, either because it’s a prestigious institution or because they genuinely think that it’s the best place for their child to be educated or both.

But my advice has always been, don’t build your or your child’s educational trajectory around trying to get into MIT or Harvard or Stanford or any other super selective institution. Find the things that they’re passionate about, find the things that they’re curious about. Let them pursue their own unique interests and aptitudes as far as it will take them. That will make them the most distinguished standout college applicant that they can be and it will also not leave them with major regrets about how they might have otherwise spent their time should their desire not come to pass."

He wrote about this back in 2010 in his seminal essay "Applying Sideways" that I didn't read until after our elder got in, and realized that it's been our own philosophy all along:

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/a ... _sideways/
For what it's worth, that's where I attended, and my father literally said almost the same thing my entire life. His wording was, "Focus on doing the best you can, and the success will follow." I honestly don't like telling people where I went because: 1) it conjures up images of the level of student I never was or even knew existed going in; and 2) I know the selective admissions process is a sensitive topic and there are people who hate finding out someone less qualified than them got in when they didn't. Even so, I graduated with decent grades while several of my friends who were more qualified on paper dropped out over the years due to the work load, so it's not shame that I feel, more like sympathy that so many other people don't get to go, and something like survivor's guilt for taking a slot I arguably didn't earn by certain metrics. Anyway, it changed the trajectory of my life, and it doesn't surprise me too much to learn their philosophy on admissions, as those values were apparent throughout all the academics as well. Many MIT students could be a lot of things that were not always ideal, but one thing the vast majority had in common is that they generally rejected things like nepotism in favor of meritocracy and academic rigor. As was stated in the quote you provided, it may sound cheesy, but if someone really doesn't understand or believe in that line of thinking and it shows, they really are hurting their chances at that particular institution. I can't really speak to other schools.
CaptainT
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by CaptainT »

1. If school started in 2013 then the graduate class did not do k thru 12 at this school. Not sure if good or bad just a thought
2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
3. With that small class size you won't have any or many sports teams. I know I wasn't a great athlete but middle school and high school sports taught me a lot about working hard, teamwork, and effort
4. Remember the private school has a data bias of kids that are not doing fabulous will be removed from the sample by their parents. Why would you continue to pay big $ for private school if you thought kid was only going to mediocre college.
5. It is a luxury good. If you already have kids college fully funded and your retirement fully funded and have enough money to pay for this expensive luxury and want to buy this expense sure go for it. That said if retirement is not secure and college funds not secure then never in a million years is this a need. It is a want only.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by TomatoTomahto »

CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
My son got an International Baccalaureate degree from his private. He wanted to take some AP tests that were not strictly taught as part of the IB curriculum. The private school facilitated his taking the tests at another school and had teachers available (if needed) as he self studied the courses.

AP is helpful for meeting pre-reqs once in college.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
dred pirate
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by dred pirate »

CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am
3. With that small class size you won't have any or many sports teams. I know I wasn't a great athlete but middle school and high school sports taught me a lot about working hard, teamwork, and effort
although I agree with the vast majority of your post - I have an N of 1, but I graduated with 26 kids (small town public school) and I played four sports (we did summer baseball)- I am NOT a good athlete, but I was able to be a four sport letter winner because, well, we needed almost the entire high school to go out and play to have a team.
gips
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by gips »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:15 am
CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
My son got an International Baccalaureate degree from his private. He wanted to take some AP tests that were not strictly taught as part of the IB curriculum. The private school facilitated his taking the tests at another school and had teachers available (if needed) as he self studied the courses.

AP is helpful for meeting pre-reqs once in college.
this is either misleading or wrong. Since your son took the IB curriculum, AP was useful for him to meet pre-reqs but the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
Last edited by gips on Thu May 19, 2022 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
gips
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by gips »

op, while we made the decision to not send our kids to private school, I have lots of friends and wall st ex-colleagues who did. Here are some observations from their experience:
- the tuition is not the total cost, you are expected to make additional donations.
- their kids all had to test into the schools, so not sure if that's a requirement for the school you're considering
- the kids were not allowed to apply will-nilly to colleges. The guidance office managed which schools the kids applied to.
- the guidance office had close relationships with admissions officers at top colleges. Two of my partners were told things like "your son has a 95% chance of being accepted to u of chicago but we don't think he can get into yale because we have a number of stronger candidates". They were left wondering if the real reason was based on merit or donation amount. Still, they were thrilled with the u of chicago acceptances.
- One of my partners lived in a school district with one of the best public high schools in the country. He told me his favorite part of the month was writing the tuition check because he was so happy with the education/experience they were receiving.
- We lived in a nyc suburb with one of the best public schools in the country (top 1%) and a graduating class of ~125 kids. The top 10-20% had excellent admissions, the top 30-40% were admitted to top 20-35 schools. So pretty good, right? I worked with a woman who sent her kids to the top boarding school in NJ and she sent me their admission list, seemed like their top 10% went right to princeton and the bottom half were getting into great schools.

I would suggest talking to the school about their relationship with admissions officers. Our public school, as described above, was excellent but didn't do a very good job with this aspect of college admissions. The year my middle child was applying to schools, they had someone out from harvard to talk to the kids, when he got back to his car, he had a parking ticket :)

good luck!
BradJ
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by BradJ »

It is a very difficult decision, and I honestly think sending your kids to private is something you probably will not regret. My wife and I come from a family where some went to public and some went to private and I can honestly say the outcomes are exactly the same (good solid jobs, well educated). That being said, private school can sort of "shrink your world" a little and you may feel like you are part of a group, and the there will not be as much "chaos" as there is in public. My wife teaches at a tough public school, but grew up private. She is under the impression that if a child can survive the chaos of public schools, they will be much better prepared for the world and probably more successful overall. That being said, the chaos is just too much at times so she still favors private.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by TomatoTomahto »

gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:15 am
CaptainT wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:30 am 2. I went to a public but very good high school. As a result my senior year was nothing but AP classes and gym. A senior class of 20 to 25 students will not allow for many if any AP classes.
My son got an International Baccalaureate degree from his private. He wanted to take some AP tests that were not strictly taught as part of the IB curriculum. The private school facilitated his taking the tests at another school and had teachers available (if needed) as he self studied the courses.

AP is helpful for meeting pre-reqs once in college.
this is either misleading or wrong. Since your son took the IB curriculum, AP may was useful for him to meet pre-reqs but the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor.
Not sure what you think is misleading or wrong, perhaps you could specify. My son got it in his head that he’d like to be a National AP Scholar, which is diffficult to do with an IB curriculum.
Granted to students in the United States who receive an average score of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and scores of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams.
So, in part because he was concerned that schools interpreting his HS transcript might not be familiar with IB and in part because he was a typical teen full of **** and vinegar, he decided to take additional AP tests. His National AP Scholar award put him in a cohort of 1% of HS students. IIRC, the school managed all the logistics.

As it happened, his AP credits got him out of some required courses so he could take advanced courses. Yale strongly discourages using AP credits to shorten one’s stay at school (on the theory that you busted your butt to get there, so enjoy it), but it makes it achievable to get a combined MS/BS in 4 years. Yale is of course familiar with the IB curriculum, and IB is I believe becoming more widespread in the US.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
nigel_ht
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

keith6014 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:50 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:48 pm We lived in an affluent and education focused public school district in NJ, rated among the highest in the country. Some of their stellar appearing results were because they restricted access to opportunities; for example, if you wanted to take an AP class, they would make sure that you would get a 5 on the test. That’s all well and good, but our son had gotten placed on a low math ability track. He was depressed.

Our requests for reevaluation were denied, so we had him take the ISEE on which he scored well. He began HS at the private and excelled, especially in math, and ultimately went to Yale where he received an MS/BS in CS (math heavy machine learning niche) in his 4 years.

When we were researching the private, I walked down the hall and heard what I thought was a professional jazz band; it was the school band. I looked through their poetry magazine: first rate. The school was obviously more diverse than our monocultural local school; their generous scholarship program allowed kids to be accepted regardless of family financial situation. Teachers were often on their second career; my son’s chemistry teacher was out of Bell Labs and his physics teacher had a successful career on Wall Street (when he left his previous employer, they gave him an Audi R8 as a present). Those teachers were there because they wanted motivated and engaged students. His English teacher was a recent Harvard grad who didn’t need the money.

One caveat is that our experience was with private middle and high school. There’s a danger that younger kids will go through the system before they can be well evaluated. By the time someone is in middle school and, for sure HS, you can have an informative interview with them; not so in earlier years. It happened rarely, but behavioral issues were dealt with carefully but decisively (I don’t recall anyone getting thrown out, but I think it was suggested that some kids find a better fit elsewhere for the following year).

The local public school sent kids to Ivies and similar. The private also did, at roughly double the percentage. A real benefit was that our kids had friends from many different backgrounds. That’s often a shock for students entering college.

I’d suggest a schoo, that offers an International Baccalaureate.
You, personally, are one of the reasons why we are considering private school! :-)

We don't want to move to an affluent area. We like where we live. Just the schools aren't great but worse the peer influences.

During the tour I visted their computer science class and heard the lecturer. I was impressed (and shocked). She was teaching binary search on a white board -- recusively and iteratively. They were in 6th - 8th grade.
It is not an IB school according to https://www.ibo.org/
Well…that’s pretty good…

It seems more than a few cohorts have made it through the curriculum and the results look good from what you post.

The only thing you might miss from an older private with a more elite reputation is slightly more consideration from HYPMS but I’ve been told that mostly translates to waitlists if your kids aren’t competitive enough…that way they keep parents semi-happy at these elite feeders by not outright rejecting them…
Last edited by nigel_ht on Thu May 19, 2022 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by nigel_ht »

gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
The vast majority of schools in the US aren’t that selective.

Test optional means that AP and IB are probably more necessary to demonstrate rigor for the semi-selective…(10-20% acceptance rate)
psteinx
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by psteinx »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:35 am
gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
The vast majority of schools in the US aren’t that selective.

Test optional means that AP and IB are probably more necessary to demonstrate rigor for the semi-selective…(10-20% acceptance rate)
It's an interesting point.

The SAT subject tests were killed off ~2 years ago (College Board does not offer them anymore).

ACT/SAT usage is still kinda iffy, even among most of the elite unis.

And grades are often inflated, such that I presume a large amount of the applicant pool at the elites is at either a uw4.0 or within a whisker thereof.

So, how do they distinguish.

For a long time, IIUC, it was helpful to take rigorous courses (i.e. APs and other challenging stuff), but most elites downplayed the actual results of the AP tests. And, since senior year AP classes produce test results much too late for the main application cycle, only <= junior year AP classes can result in AP scores by the time of (conventional) application. For a long time, AP classes and tests were mostly seen as for Seniors, and if a Junior or Sophomore took one or two, do you really want the Harvard accept/deny decision to be based on whether Sally got a 4 or a 5 on the one or two APs she'd taken?

That said, the colleges need SOMETHING to evaluate academic ability, and so maybe getting a bunch of 5s (and maybe a 4 or two) on APs, <= junior year, will become a main admissions feature for unhooked applicants to the tippy-top unis...
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by TomatoTomahto »

psteinx wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:07 am
nigel_ht wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:35 am
gips wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:58 am the vast majority of schools in the US don't offer IB programs and AP classes are an absolute necessity to demonstrate rigor. I would guess more so today in the age of test optional.
The vast majority of schools in the US aren’t that selective.

Test optional means that AP and IB are probably more necessary to demonstrate rigor for the semi-selective…(10-20% acceptance rate)
It's an interesting point.

The SAT subject tests were killed off ~2 years ago (College Board does not offer them anymore).

ACT/SAT usage is still kinda iffy, even among most of the elite unis.

And grades are often inflated, such that I presume a large amount of the applicant pool at the elites is at either a uw4.0 or within a whisker thereof.

So, how do they distinguish.

For a long time, IIUC, it was helpful to take rigorous courses (i.e. APs and other challenging stuff), but most elites downplayed the actual results of the AP tests. And, since senior year AP classes produce test results much too late for the main application cycle, only <= junior year AP classes can result in AP scores by the time of (conventional) application. For a long time, AP classes and tests were mostly seen as for Seniors, and if a Junior or Sophomore took one or two, do you really want the Harvard accept/deny decision to be based on whether Sally got a 4 or a 5 on the one or two APs she'd taken?

That said, the colleges need SOMETHING to evaluate academic ability, and so maybe getting a bunch of 5s (and maybe a 4 or two) on APs, <= junior year, will become a main admissions feature for unhooked applicants to the tippy-top unis...
Of course I wasn’t in the room, but at the time I tried to figure out why my son was accepted. His grades were far from a 4.0 uw, but they probably didn’t worry too much about a B or 2 in French and Art. His SATs were perfect (although he did get an “easy” math question wrong), but imo that wasn’t it either. He was as unhooked as you can be.

I decided that it was teacher and counselor recommendations that swung it over the fence. The counselor interviewed his teachers (find that at a public school) because she wouldn’t risk her good name at the Admissions Office (AO). The teachers and counselor were known to the AO and one recommendation in particular I think resulted in an acceptance (“once in a career student”).

All conjecture, but it’s my story and I’m sticking to it 😁
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
marathonfi
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Re: Evaluating private school

Post by marathonfi »

psteinx wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:43 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:54 pm It's no different than paying full-freight for an expensive private school when the state's top public is a fraction of the cost. To some, it may be worth it (for various reasons) and for others it just doesn't make any sense; depends on a countless number of factors. With my experience, I lean towards private school making no sense for our family, but our family is not yours.
There are some differences, including:

1) At the K-12 level, for most of us in urban/suburban areas, the local elementary/middle/HS is within ~4 miles, often closer to 1-2. With school busses generally available. High end privates, unless you're fortunately located, will be more like 5-15 miles away, without bus service. More hassle to get your kid to and from school each day (~2 roundtrips/day), and more difficulty socializing with their school friends at off times/weekends.

Whereas, with colleges, your local flagship may be 50-150 miles away, and your private alternative 50-500 miles away. Yes, the distances for the latter may be larger, but in any case, they're likely living with their peers throughout the school year, and the extra mileage penalty is only paid a few times a year rather than a couple times a day...

2) I think there's more justification for increasing stratification of students by academic ability and interest, as they get older. Sure, a 95th or 99th percentile 2nd grader would benefit from similarly smart classmates (versus, say, 60th percentile), but the degree of benefit is likely significantly greater at 10th grade or college level. And all 2nd graders mostly do the same tasks, whereas that's clearly untrue at the university level, and while flagships are usually big, they're often lacking in certain specializations. For instance, engineering-oriented students are often steered to a smaller secondary state university that may lack many of the features and benefits of the flagship.

3) While fancy private HSs are cheaper than fancy private colleges, the SPREAD (private minus public) is not quite so much, and K-12 is 13 years of school versus ~4 years of undergrad.

4) It's easier for parents to supplement the academic needs of advanced K-6 (and, to a lesser extent 7-12) grade kids who are performing above peer norms, but harder to do for college, if kid is at a college "below" their ability level.
#2 is very insightful and is something I have not thought of. Thank you.
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