[Generators]/ supplemental power generation

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JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

Thanks for all the replies. I did read through the whole thread. Many of them are a good reminder why I haven't considered them. The thought of having massive gas or propane tanks, even if it is kosher with HOA, is a major turnoff. You could get a smaller one and have limited power, but I'm not sure it is worth the effort. I guess it could be for massive extended blackouts and you are unable to leave.

We have a fireplace and we haven't used it for 20+ years. That gives you insight into how interested I am in expending effort on such matters. From what I've read fireplaces suck out more heat than they contribute to the house.

The only one remotely interesting to me is the Generac powered by natural gas. But I suspect the all in price for what I'd want would be cost prohibitive.

If we had a lot more money and a lot more property id consider geothermal, solar and batteries.

I have not heard that residential gas lines are impacted, but it is true demand is reduced due to power being out.

Yes, the event has been politicized from both sides with gross exaggerations.
Topic Author
JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

ScoobyDoo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:17 am
JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:17 pm I'm one of the lucky ones in TX who has enjoyed single digit temperatures with almost no power for 2-3 days. Started out Sunday 30 minutes- 1 hour on to 6-8 hours off. Getting better today, house finally got back to normal temperature.

Outages have generally been rare, although seems to be coming more frequent. We live in a suburban neighborhood, house about 2600 Sq feet, electric power plus gas heat hot water. We have an HOA, so windmill in the backyard is probably non starter! :wink: Ironically many here have gas heat, but it doesn't work without electricity , so they cut off grid to all these homes that likely use little electric power

I've never considered a generator before, but wondering if I should. Obviously this would cost some money, but may be worth the assurance of having a backup plan. I really know nothing in this area.

What are the options?

- gasoline or other fuel based generator
- natural gas powered generator (I looked this up, you can get these)
- Batteries?
- other?

If I did somethjng I'd want it to be able to run a heater or central air. Is that feasible?

I've never been big on the idea of solar panels, I'm not sure how effective that would be for this issue.


Just looking for ideas, power requirements, approximate costs, feasibility in a suburban neighborhood.

Thanks.
I, too, am in Texas suburb. No issues with electricity, must be on a critical grid line or something. Although ONCoR said if rolling blackouts w/o critical grids bot included didn’t help, blacking out those areas would be next! Internet out! Still not understanding that!!!!????? Really scary.

On the investing/market side (though not really bogle-like) seems like alternative energy sources and other ‘zombie apocalypse’ preparation supplies/markets should experience an uptick in the future. Another bitcoin like bubble? With the pandemic, lockdowns, fires, multiple climate related major incidents this last year, what stocks or sectors might see an insurgence? 🤔
Oncor is our distribution company too. We have friends in the same general division less than a half mile away. They've had power the whole time. They may be on the same grid as a local medical institution. If we were uncomfortable enough we could have gone over there.
joenj15
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by joenj15 »

CurlyDave wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:52 pm
JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:17 pm
...If I did somethjng I'd want it to be able to run a heater or central air. Is that feasible?

I've never been big on the idea of solar panels, I'm not sure how effective that would be for this issue.

To be effective at all solar panels would also need storage batteries or they will not work at night.

Solar panels will not work without seeing AC voltage coming into the house. This is to protect any linemen from harm, from backfeeding onto the lines. You would need a battery setup off the grid to supply electricity during an outage. Not cost effective to have batteries.

I do have the portable generator setup outside, with the generator lockout kit installed on the house panel. Can only turn on the generator feed breaker if the MAIN is off. Approved through the Permit Process.
mervinj7
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by mervinj7 »

SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Would you mind commenting on how much it cost to install the generator?
tomd37
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by tomd37 »

Mervinj7 - Everything I had read online about whole house generator cost said to expect to pay about the same amount for a proper installation as you do for the unit itself. That is assuming you buy the unit from an authorized dealer (e.g., Generac). I personally found that to be quite true in my installation of a Generac 22KwH with automatic transfer switch. So total price is dependent on size of unit. I am very happy with mine. :D
Tom D.
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JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Was it a natural gas one? What was your all in price, $6k to $10k?
Topic Author
JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

tomd37 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:22 pm Mervinj7 - Everything I had read online about whole house generator cost said to expect to pay about the same amount for a proper installation as you do for the unit itself. That is assuming you buy the unit from an authorized dealer (e.g., Generac). I personally found that to be quite true in my installation of a Generac 22KwH with automatic transfer switch. So total price is dependent on size of unit. I am very happy with mine. :D
Do you mind sharing the price, installed?
tomd37
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by tomd37 »

JBTX - Sending info via private message shortly.
Tom D.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by tibbitts »

As there are now whole-house generators with tool-less switching capability between propane and natural gas, couldn't this be automated fairly easily based on sensing a loss of natural gas input? Since propane can seemingly be stored for long periods without deterioration, it overcomes the obvious limitations of diesel and gasoline, the only downside being the storage space required. Is there any maintenance required for propane storage?
SueG5123
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by SueG5123 »

JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:48 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Was it a natural gas one? What was your all in price, $6k to $10k?
Yes, natural gas. Roughly $10K from Lowe’s. Good install, we’ve been pleased.
Topic Author
JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:48 pm
JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:48 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Was it a natural gas one? What was your all in price, $6k to $10k?
Yes, natural gas. Roughly $10K from Lowe’s. Good install, we’ve been pleased.
Thanks. About what I expected.
Oleanmike
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Oleanmike »

I live in Houston and having been living through this disaster. Last summer we had a 20 KW Kohler generator installed for $12,000 all-in. At the time it was for "hurricane protection" as we have lived here for 40 years and don't ever remember a prolonged winter outage. It is natural gas fired and is capable of powering everything in the house.

We were fortunate to have grid power for the coldest day but in the last two days the rolling outages of about 6 hours each have started. So far we have been through two of them. The generator comes on about 10 seconds after the outage starts. The natural gas supply has been very steady and I don't expect there to be an interruption (but I may be wrong).

For us (retired and comfortable) cost was not a factor. Having been through several hurricane outages of 5 days and longer, the thought of doing that again in our 70's was unappealing. With the pandemic and travel shut down we diverted our travel budget towards the generator.

My message is that if you can afford it, a permanently installed whole house generator is the way to go. It sure is paying off for us.
mervinj7
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by mervinj7 »

JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:30 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:48 pm Yes, natural gas. Roughly $10K from Lowe’s. Good install, we’ve been pleased.
Thanks. About what I expected.
$10k is what others have told me as well. In my case, since I already have solar AND if I really wanted a more permanent partial home backup solution, I would just spend $12k and have two Tesla Powerwalls installed. That said, during the intermittent CA blackouts, my current solution is to use my Nissan's Leaf's 40kWh battery along with a 1kW inverter as an emergency power source to run my refrigerator. In the future, it would be interesting if I can replace it with a true V2H (Vehicle 2 House) solution. There's a 7.4kW solution that's been delayed for a year.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... in-the-u-s
Johnny Thinwallet
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

We're in Ohio, and we do not have a generator but a few neighbors have them. That said, we do have a 40,000 BTU gas fireplace that will ignite and operate even when the electric is out. It uses a millivolt type of ignition system. We use it regularly through the winter, including during power outages, and it provides valuable heat without requiring electricity. I'll also add that we do have carbon monoxide detectors with battery backup.

The gas grill and fire pit outside can assist with cooking and boiling water. Food storage in the winter is straightforward - just move it all outside if it's cold enough. Food storage in the summer is more tricky, and I usually try to move it to my parents if they have power (or my wife's parents). Otherwise there's a limited amount of time to cook and eat or it just gets tossed. Non-perishables are highly valuable in these scenarios, and we always have some on hand.

I'll fully acknowledge that an outage of several days would be tough with our setup given that we do not have a generator. But for outages of one day, the above has worked well.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by willthrill81 »

We've had a Yamaha 2400 iSHC that outputs up to 2,400 watts of power (2,000 continuously) for years and love it. If I were to buy another generator of similar size, I'd probably get one of the Champion inverter generators.

The gas furnace blowers that I've tested only draw about 600 watts of power or so, so virtually any generator will power that.

You can power a gas furnace, refrigerator, TV, modem/router, laptop, and a bunch of LED lights for no more than 1,500 watts total.

Depending on how much gasoline you stored, you could get a 2 kW inverter generator, power all of the above with extension cords, and have an all-in cost under $1k.
The Sensible Steward
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JBTX
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by JBTX »

SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:48 pm
JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:48 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Was it a natural gas one? What was your all in price, $6k to $10k?
Yes, natural gas. Roughly $10K from Lowe’s. Good install, we’ve been pleased.
Is it powerful enough to run your AC?
Random Poster
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Random Poster »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:25 pm We've had a Yamaha 2400 iSHC that outputs up to 2,400 watts of power (2,000 continuously) for years and love it. If I were to buy another generator of similar size, I'd probably get one of the Champion inverter generators.

The gas furnace blowers that I've tested only draw about 600 watts of power or so, so virtually any generator will power that.

You can power a gas furnace, refrigerator, TV, modem/router, laptop, and a bunch of LED lights for no more than 1,500 watts total.

Depending on how much gasoline you stored, you could get a 2 kW inverter generator, power all of the above with extension cords, and have an all-in cost under $1k.
How do you power all of these things from the generator? Specifically, the furnace?

I’m mostly curious how you get an extension cord from the generator to power the furnace, as I sure don’t see any power cord coming out of the furnace or a socket receptacle plug going into it.

And I guess for the refrigerator you just pull it out from the wall and plug it into the generator (via an extension cord)?
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willthrill81
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by willthrill81 »

Random Poster wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:34 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:25 pm We've had a Yamaha 2400 iSHC that outputs up to 2,400 watts of power (2,000 continuously) for years and love it. If I were to buy another generator of similar size, I'd probably get one of the Champion inverter generators.

The gas furnace blowers that I've tested only draw about 600 watts of power or so, so virtually any generator will power that.

You can power a gas furnace, refrigerator, TV, modem/router, laptop, and a bunch of LED lights for no more than 1,500 watts total.

Depending on how much gasoline you stored, you could get a 2 kW inverter generator, power all of the above with extension cords, and have an all-in cost under $1k.
How do you power all of these things from the generator? Specifically, the furnace?

I’m mostly curious how you get an extension cord from the generator to power the furnace, as I sure don’t see any power cord coming out of the furnace or a socket receptacle plug going into it.

And I guess for the refrigerator you just pull it out from the wall and plug it into the generator (via an extension cord)?
Residential gas furnaces are run by 120 volt electricity, but they are typically hardwired in. It's a pretty simple matter to add a plug to the furnace and to have the power normally run to the furnace with a dedicated single-outlet right next to the furnace (yes, this to code). There's a great YouTube video on how to do it here.

Yes, we just pull the refrigerator out from the wall, plug it into an extension cord, and push it back to the wall.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Wannaretireearly »

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... in-the-u-s

I so want this. One of the reasons I've signed up for the cybertruck. Hoping Tesla figures out V2H/V2G
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by neilpilot »

Random Poster wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:34 pm

How do you power all of these things from the generator? Specifically, the furnace?

I’m mostly curious how you get an extension cord from the generator to power the furnace, as I sure don’t see any power cord coming out of the furnace or a socket receptacle plug going into it.

And I guess for the refrigerator you just pull it out from the wall and plug it into the generator (via an extension cord)?
I have 3 HVAC systems. Each has a power cord plugged into it’s own standard 2 receptacle outlet. That’s the way the house was built. If I need heat during a power outage I unplug the ground floor furnace and run it via extension cord using my 1kw inverter generator.
glock19
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by glock19 »

JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:09 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:48 pm
JBTX wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:48 pm
SueG5123 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:46 pm Explaining our rationale for why we installed a generator in 2020 would likely get me slapped by the moderators. I will say that we did not foresee a four day ice storm in Texas without power — nor are we unduly worried by hurricanes, although we are near the gulf coast.

Regardless of our motivation, our Gererac generator proved itself well worth the investment during 60 hours off the grid. The whole house had power, seamlessly, while entire housing developments nearby have been in the dark. We have sheltered and fed neighbors. We had heat to keep interior pipes from freezing.

Peace of mind. priceless!

If you afford it, I’d recommend it highly.
Was it a natural gas one? What was your all in price, $6k to $10k?
Yes, natural gas. Roughly $10K from Lowe’s. Good install, we’ve been pleased.
Is it powerful enough to run your AC?
I have a Generac 22KW nat gas unit. It will power both my 3.5 ton and 2 ton A/C units running at the same time, all while using other appliances in my house. Obviously A/C's draw more current when starting, but it would be unusual to have both of my units cycling on at the same time. However, my transfer switch has the ability to automatically stagger the starting of the 2 units should this occur.

Also, the Generac transfer switch has "load shedding" to prevent any potential overload on the generator.

If I had it to do over, I would go with Kohler!!!
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ResearchMed
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by ResearchMed »

glock19 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:05 pm If I had it to do over, I would go with Kohler!!!
Why such a strong feeling that you wish you had chosen Kohler instead?

We've got a Generac, so that's "done".
We haven't had a single complaint about it, other than wishing we had gotten it sooner :happy

But I'm curious about your comment...

RM
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Starfish
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Starfish »

JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:17 pm I'm one of the lucky ones in TX who has enjoyed single digit temperatures with almost no power for 2-3 days. Started out Sunday 30 minutes- 1 hour on to 6-8 hours off. Getting better today, house finally got back to normal temperature.

Outages have generally been rare, although seems to be coming more frequent. We live in a suburban neighborhood, house about 2600 Sq feet, electric power plus gas heat hot water. We have an HOA, so windmill in the backyard is probably non starter! :wink: Ironically many here have gas heat, but it doesn't work without electricity , so they cut off grid to all these homes that likely use little electric power

I've never considered a generator before, but wondering if I should. Obviously this would cost some money, but may be worth the assurance of having a backup plan. I really know nothing in this area.

What are the options?

- gasoline or other fuel based generator
- natural gas powered generator (I looked this up, you can get these)
- Batteries?
- other?

If I did somethjng I'd want it to be able to run a heater or central air. Is that feasible?

I've never been big on the idea of solar panels, I'm not sure how effective that would be for this issue.


Just looking for ideas, power requirements, approximate costs, feasibility in a suburban neighborhood.

Thanks.
If you want to run AC etc you can do a full house backup generator, probably you need about 20kW, cost about 15-20k$. Natural gas it's much better option. The biggest air cooled Generac is 22kw.
The ones with gas just provide you several outlets with different phases, so you cannot short them.
Panels + batteries are very expensive for what you want.
If you have HOA, they should do a bigger back up. It should be much cheaper.
CurlyDave
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by CurlyDave »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:16 pm As there are now whole-house generators with tool-less switching capability between propane and natural gas, couldn't this be automated fairly easily based on sensing a loss of natural gas input? Since propane can seemingly be stored for long periods without deterioration, it overcomes the obvious limitations of diesel and gasoline, the only downside being the storage space required. Is there any maintenance required for propane storage?
I have a 500 gallon propane tank. No maintenance so far in over 15 years, although it has started to develop black spots and will probably need to be washed soon.

Visually, it is not so nice. Looks sort of like a beached submarine. We have 40 acres and it is pretty well hidden in the woods. That is a lot harder to do in a suburban yard, although I have seen fences which provide a visual screen and still allow ventilation. They mostly look industrial-grade ugly.
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Carl53
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Carl53 »

About 15 years ago, elderly inlaws living in a very rural location installed a 20Kw Generac unit (propane) for about $7500 including load shedding capability after offspring found out they had an ice storm that knocked out power for a couple days and they had not said anything about being cold. This was before one of them began using one of those oxygen machines. That said they never upgraded their 300 gallon propane tank, so that could still be a problem as their supplier did not want to come out unless the tank was down to 30%. They never had another outage of that magnitude while still with us, but it provided some piece of mind to the offspring.
aquaman
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by aquaman »

Starfish wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:24 pmIf you want to run AC etc you can do a full house backup generator, probably you need about 20kW, cost about 15-20k$.
It depends on the area, the dealer and the installation complexity, but here the entire setup runs about $8K to $10K. Where I live, standby generators are a sought after high end feature, such that at resale you typically get back about half of what you had paid to put it in.
hudson
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by hudson »

JBTX,

On the other discussion,viewtopic.php?f=11&t=336294&hilit=generator I warmed up to one of the smaller portable units initially. I liked the larger inverter-generator units maybe a Honda or Champion. I'm 73, and can still probably do the physical part. I might have to get my back worked on afterwards? I talked with my brother who lives in hurricane country. He said that rolling out a generator at 2AM in the rain is no fun. That made me lean towards a whole house solution.

We've made it through decades of outages by muddling through. We put in gas logs as a backup heat source; but that went away 10 years ago. I'm a winter camper, so I've got 4 season tents and sleeping bags. When the food goes bad in the freezers/refrigerators it's usually a great opportunity to clean them out. My plan B through the years has been to move in with a relative who has power.

Now when the power goes out, I'm thinking that I need to have a backup even if I can't really justify spending that much money.

I got several quotes. I consulted with a trusted electrician. I ordered a 22KW Generac with a 325 gallon propane tank...$11K out the door. Natural gas is not an option. (I know that you've ruled out propane. Some folks bury their tanks.) I've had the unit on order for a few months; the installer said that it's promised to him by the end of Feb. The system is supposed to run everything except the strip heat on the heat pump. Everything is a hot water heater, dishwasher, refrigerator, freezer, 2 heat pumps, oven/stove/microwave, dishwasher, and electronics.

Bottom line: If I was 40, I'd get a portable Honda inverter generator and hire an electrician to get the hook ups correct.
I'm not 40, so I'm going with the whole house solution. Will it ever pay off? Probably not.
Will it give me peace of mind, the next time the power dies? probably

EDIT: The 22KW Generac is listed at 68 Decibels...maybe the same or louder than a heat pump?
The installer said that the sound was directional. He would "point" the generator's exhaust away from other houses.
Last edited by hudson on Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
tomd37
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by tomd37 »

I have the same 22kW Generac natural gas unit mentioned by Glock19 and others with the automatic transfer switch that will handle my two HVAC systems (2.5 and 3.0 ton) at the same time along with the other electrical requirements. Its cost installed nine months ago was $10,300 and included the 4" contoured concrete slab it sits on and a whole house surge protector. I am pleased with the unit and the peace of mind it brings to us in our mid-80s. In spring of 2020 we had a terrible storm go through this area and we were without power for 69 continuous hours. Unfortunately the unit had not yet been installed but we are ready now should the need arise. Our next door neighbor has the same unit and his ran the full time with no issues. His was the only home in this 162 unit community that had power.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by whomever »

" It's a pretty simple matter to add a plug to the furnace and to have the power normally run to the furnace with a dedicated single-outlet right next to the furnace (yes, this to code). There's a great YouTube video on how to do it here."

One comment: I just skipped through the video, and it is generally OK, but to nitpick he used a romex clamp on the cord ... that's not to code. It's common enough I doubt it's much of a hazard, but you should use a strain relief approved for SJW or whatever the cable type of his pigtail. Something like this:

https://www.homedepot.com/s/strain%2520relief?NCNI-5

And a question about 'yes, this to code'. A couple of years ago I mentioned doing this here, and someone quoted an NEC section requiring furnaces to be hardwired. Has that changed? And I'll ask what I asked then, without getting a good answer - why would the NEC object to a furnace plug in this context?

(and, FWIW, not having heard about that code provision when I put a plug on my furnace, I just did it, and the inspector approved it without comment. Which means it was 'to code' *for me*. So if it's something you want to do, but you want to be punctilious about following the code, ask your inspector if he will approve it)
glock19
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by glock19 »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:12 pm
glock19 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:05 pm If I had it to do over, I would go with Kohler!!!
Why such a strong feeling that you wish you had chosen Kohler instead?

We've got a Generac, so that's "done".
We haven't had a single complaint about it, other than wishing we had gotten it sooner :happy

But I'm curious about your comment...

RM
I installed my generator using all correct specs. While running it would constantly surge, or "hunt" for the correct speed, as if there were an issue with the engine governor.

Generac service is all performed by dealers, and after having 3 different dealers involved, none could solve my problem. The third dealer was very cooperative, and even though I did not purchase the generator from them, they helped get a full replacement unit from Generac (who by the way, fought this from the beginning).

After the second unit was installed, the same problem existed. We traced it down to the fact the engine was running too rich due to high natural gas pressure. My nat gas pressure measured at the generator was well within the range of that specified by Generac. The dealer, who I highly trust, said this was a known issue, and Generac refused to address it.

I could only solve it by drilling holes in the air intake box, or by leaving the air intake box cracked open. Drilling holes would void the warranty. Cracking the air box cover could possibly lessen the filtering aspect.

Instead, I decided to source and install a low pressure secondary regulator so I could fine tune the input level of natural gas. After dropping the pressure to below what was recommended by Generac, my problem was solved.

I had to do all this myself. Generac was of no help. My unit now runs perfectly, but only because I was willing to spend a lot of time and work. Again this was a known Generac issue in many units, but not all, that were shipped.

My Dealer said they sell mostly Generacs because of the name brand recognition, but they feel the Kohler is a superior unit. Also they feel Kohler is a much better company to work with. Lastly, the Generac has mechanical valves that need periodic adjustments. Kohler's are hydraulic valve lifters that require no adjustments.

I'm sure by now you are sorry you asked, but it sure feels good to vent. Had I not had the ability to do this myself, I would have been stuck with a very poorly functioning piece of machinery!
Last edited by glock19 on Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
aquaman
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by aquaman »

whomever wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:48 am And a question about 'yes, this to code'. A couple of years ago I mentioned doing this here, and someone quoted an NEC section requiring furnaces to be hardwired. Has that changed? And I'll ask what I asked then, without getting a good answer - why would the NEC object to a furnace plug in this context?

(and, FWIW, not having heard about that code provision when I put a plug on my furnace, I just did it, and the inspector approved it without comment. Which means it was 'to code' *for me*. So if it's something you want to do, but you want to be punctilious about following the code, ask your inspector if he will approve it)
Here are some decent discussions about this:

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/fo ... all.26322/
https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/fo ... ents.6453/
https://forum.nachi.org/t/gas-fired-fur ... on/17558/2
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by TomatoTomahto »

glock19 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:13 am I installed my generator using all correct specs. While running it would constantly surge, or "hunt" for the correct speed, as if there were an issue with the engine governor.

Generac service is all performed by dealers, and after having 3 different dealers involved, none could solve my problem. The third dealer was very cooperative, and even though I did not purchase the generator from them, they helped get a full replacement unit from Generac (who by the way, fought this from the beginning).

After the second unit was installed, the same problem existed. We traced it down to the fact the engine was running too rich due to high natural gas pressure. My nat gas pressure measured at the generator was well within the range of that specified by Generac. The dealer, who I highly trust, said this was a known issue, and Generac refused to address it.

I could only solve it by drilling holes in the air intake box, or by leaving the air intake box cracked open. Drilling holes would void the warranty. Cracking the air box cover could possibly lessen the filtering aspect.

Instead, I decided to source and install a low pressure secondary regulator so I could fine tune the input level of natural gas. After dropping the pressure to below what was recommended by Generac, my problem was solved.

I had to do all this myself. Generac was of no help. My unit now runs perfectly, but only because I was willing to spend a lot of time and work. Again this was a known Generac issue in many units, but not all, that were shipped.

My Dealer said they sell mostly Generacs because of the name brand recognition, but they feel the Kohler is a superior unit. Also they feel Kohler is a much better company to work with. Lastly, the Generac has mechanical valves that need periodic adjustments. Kohler's are hydraulic valve lifters that require no adjustments.

I'm sure by now you are sorry you asked, but it sure feels good to vent. Had I not had the ability to do this myself, I would have been stuck with a very poorly functioning piece of machinery!
TL;DR Thanks for the detailed answer.

I am discussing with Koehler dealer and Generac dealer how best to provide the next level of backup capability. This will be a considerable upgrade from my 8kw propane Generac, and might involve 3 6kw Kohlers or a 20kw Generac or Koehler. The inside baseball reason for 3 separate 6kw Koehler generators would be to reduce single-point-of-failure risk when backing up our batteries; it isn’t clear whether the software currently exists to transfer between three devices needing recharging; it might be overkill.

Thus far, my experience has been having a Koehler in NJ and a smaller Generac in MA. My amateur view is that I preferred the Koehler because it was quieter, but additionally the (installed by previous owner) Generac had some issues.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
whomever
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by whomever »

aquaman: thank you for those links!

My guess the responses (many from inspectors?) were maybe 75% 'of course not' and 25% 'sure, why not'.

I saw a few reasons posited:
1)'I have seen plugs melt' ... but no explanation of why a furnace plug is more likely to melt than any plug carrying a similar load.
2)'If there was a gas leak, you could pull it out it would spark...' ... but no objection to other plugs, switches, etc in the same space.
3)'if you put a generator next to the furnace, the monoxide will kill you' ... absolutely true, you always run the generator outside. But equally true of every electrical device.

I would think the balance of safety would be on the side of having a plug, so people aren't trying to backfeed so their furnace will run.

In any event, ask your inspector.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by lazydavid »

random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:54 am
ddurrett896 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:02 am Buy one of these and run 10/3 wire to a new 30 amp breaker in your panel. When you use generator, turn off main, turn on generator 30 amp breaker.

https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Generato ... s9dHJ1ZQ==
Yikes!!! Please don't do it this away. It's highly illegal and could get some poor lineman killed. If you're going to diy like this, at the very least, install a manual transfer switch. Your approach relies on a person to do things in proper order to not backfeed electricity to the lines. A manual transfer switch makes it idiot proof, which is the only way to make this reliably safe.
It's not the only way. A lockout is also completely safe, and meets code in most places as long as it is designed specifically for your load center. This is what I have in my basement, and use an inlet like the one linked above. It is physically impossible for the main and generator breakers to be on at the same time, so no risk of backfeeding into the grid.
MBB_Boy
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Re: Generators/ supplemental power generation

Post by MBB_Boy »

JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:16 pm
tomd37 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:00 pm Based on previous posts on this site, you are going to get all sorts of answers from permanently installed expensive units that provide enough power to run everything at one time if you so desire down to portable generators that you have to move outside, hook up, and run on gasoline to provide enough power to run selected amounts of items.

That said, as an 84 year-old couple, we recently permanently installed a 22KwH Generac, natural gas powered whole house generator with an automatic transfer switch which will allow us to run everything in our 2200 sq ft home, including the two HVAC systems, at the same time whether the temperature is 99 degrees outside as it is routinely here during most of the summer or whether it is 9 degrees outside as it is tonight with the ice and snow storm we are experiencing for five days.

We had talked about such a generator not too long ago but did not get to have it installed until shortly after we experienced a 69-hour total power outage in May of 2020 after a very severe two-day storm ravaged this part of the state. We watched out our dark rooms to see our neighbor's unit running constantly during those 69 hours. He was the envy of our 162-home community! :wink: We may, however, get to use ours for the first time if these snow/ice storms continue for the next three days!

You have to weigh the pros and cons and the costs involved in your decision. Great sense of security though when you have it.
Thanks. I actually saw the Generac when I Googled natural gas generators. Seems like they run around $5k to $6k, plus I'm guessing installation? While a seemingly a costly solution, I'd view it as peace of mind.

My main question would be, what is the possibility in such an event that not only is electric disrupted by gas too? I don't recall in 25 years ever experiencing as gas disruption. I do occasionally hear about gas line breaks or gas leaks but seems pretty rare.
For what it's worth, I'm in Texas and never lost power. But I DiD lose gas. Sooo...yeah. Really cant prepare for everything. To me, cutting reliance on outside entities is where my mind goes. So a portable generator that uses gas is my go to, because I can choose to keep gasoline stored in cans / card independent of what the energy or natgas companies go through
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Starfish »

Nat gas generators cab easily changed to propane with a manual switch. Use the tank from the grill for short times.
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hand
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by hand »

glock19 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:13 am
My Dealer said they sell mostly Generacs because of the name brand recognition, but they feel the Kohler is a superior unit. Also they feel Kohler is a much better company to work with. Lastly, the Generac has mechanical valves that need periodic adjustments. Kohler's are hydraulic valve lifters that require no adjustments.

I'm sure by now you are sorry you asked, but it sure feels good to vent. Had I not had the ability to do this myself, I would have been stuck with a very poorly functioning piece of machinery!
Thanks for taking the time to share the issues in detail and in a way that was understandable by the average buyer.

There seems to be an industry of reducing product quality in ways that aren't immediately obvious to the average consumer to improve profit margins, but ultimately provide poor value to the consumer (and society as a whole). Testimonials like this are the only way to stem the tide and retain focus on quality and long term value.
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SmallCityDave
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by SmallCityDave »

There are plenty of options, perhaps too many. Do you want to live like nothing ever happened or do you want to get by for a few days?

We have never had the need for backup power but I wanted to be prepared. We have a small Champion inverter generator that lasts 8-10 hours on a gallon of gas and produces up-to 2000 watts we also have a larger (but still small) dual fuel generator that produces up to 5000 watts, we also hired an electrician to make it so the bigger generator can power the whole home. All in we've spent about $600 for this to help us sleep better at night, if we were without power for 1-2 days a year I'd invest in a whole home system.
MBB_Boy
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by MBB_Boy »

random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:12 am
cpumechanic wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:28 am Suggestions that work for me

1.0 Wood stove in Basement with 3 cords of split hardwood outside basement sliding door.
2.0 800 gallons of propane at 0.99 cents per gallon sitting awating use in tank in side yard.
3.0 Ability to transfer liquid propane to smaller tanks to use to power propane heaters, grill, stove and generator to run home well pump and pump water.

4.0 Small RV in driveway to use in extreme emergency for cooling if absolutely needed.

Summary :

I can survive in 100F weather fairly easily, but I don't want to worry about freezing to death.

Best of luck to you, who knew 42% of the electricity in Texas was supplied by now frozen windmills (per WSJ this AM). [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Best of luck

CPU
Just to be clear, the windmill thing is overblown. There was even some news on (Saturday?) that, even with a sizeable fraction offline, it was extra windy and the remaining ones were delivering a little more electricity than would normally be expected from the farm.

Blaming windmills makes for good politics, but at this time of year, wind is a small fraction, and the bigger problems are the natural gas and nuclear plants that are down. All 3 could've been insulated and winterized, but prior to now, there was no economic justification. It also sucks that we have our own grid and can't borrow electricity from neighboring states.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16 ... es-frozen/
https://fortune.com/2021/02/16/texas-po ... -turbines/
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16 ... wer-storm/
They have been insulated and winterized - just not enough. It's untrue and unfair to imply that no effort has been made to protect for winter. Starting in at least 2011, authorities have had to prepare and present plans. 2018 was successful. This year, they failed. Sometimes, bad things happen despite plans.

And we can't let the failure of renewables go unnoticed / off the hook either. The % of renewables lost was insanely high. If we don't recognize this reality, the whole world will suffer as adoption increases. Texas is the leader in wind generation, and we lose a valuable opportunity for lessons learned if we let politics get in the way of energy / utility science and engineering.

And didn't we borrow electricity from Mexico in 2011? And I thought I read we couldn't get power from them or SPP/ other states because they have their own issues from the same storm. Could be wrong

ETA: In my opinion, Texas energy policy got it right by taking an "all of the above" approach to generation - being #1 in wind in a state famous for oil and gas isn't the expected outcome. The fact that this happened DESPITE the diversity in supply makes it a perfect test case for resiliency planning. Sucks to live through though - lucky I'm only down on gas, as opposed to also power and water
Luke Duke
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Luke Duke »

cheese_breath wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:09 pm I'm in TX too, and we get rotating power supply. Mine's on now but will go off soon. Then it will come back on sometime later. I'm satisfied with this.

As far as a generator, this weather is probably a once in a lifetime event. Tough it out and get on with your life after that. Even when I lived in Michigan I didn't have a generator. Found it less expensive to just go a hotel for extended outages.
Except that a similar event happened 10 years ago for all of the same reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Grou ... y_blizzard
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Luke Duke wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:31 pm
cheese_breath wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:09 pm I'm in TX too, and we get rotating power supply. Mine's on now but will go off soon. Then it will come back on sometime later. I'm satisfied with this.

As far as a generator, this weather is probably a once in a lifetime event. Tough it out and get on with your life after that. Even when I lived in Michigan I didn't have a generator. Found it less expensive to just go a hotel for extended outages.
Except that a similar event happened 10 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Grou ... y_blizzard
We have gone from “once in a century” to “once in a generation” to “once in a decade” seemingly overnight. I am putting my energy into making my house as weather/grid impervious as possible.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by willthrill81 »

whomever wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:44 am aquaman: thank you for those links!

My guess the responses (many from inspectors?) were maybe 75% 'of course not' and 25% 'sure, why not'.

I saw a few reasons posited:
1)'I have seen plugs melt' ... but no explanation of why a furnace plug is more likely to melt than any plug carrying a similar load.
2)'If there was a gas leak, you could pull it out it would spark...' ... but no objection to other plugs, switches, etc in the same space.
3)'if you put a generator next to the furnace, the monoxide will kill you' ... absolutely true, you always run the generator outside. But equally true of every electrical device.

I would think the balance of safety would be on the side of having a plug, so people aren't trying to backfeed so their furnace will run.

In any event, ask your inspector.
I agree that there is no good reason for the plug to melt from a 600 watt draw. Our coffee maker draws more than double that, and it's not hardwired in. The gas leak issue is also a non-starter for me; you'd smell the gas if there was nearly enough of it to ignite. And of course you would never run your generator indoors.

I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission in this setting. Heating our home is more important than an inspector's opinion, which is likely to differ from the next inspector's opinion. At the very least, the NEC doesn't explicitly and specifically disallow it. However, an alternative could be to leave the furnace hardwired normally but have everything on hand to quickly switch it to a plug. I bet I could do it in 15 minutes.
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Re: Generators/ supplemental power generation

Post by Valuethinker »

JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:16 pm
tomd37 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:00 pm Based on previous posts on this site, you are going to get all sorts of answers from permanently installed expensive units that provide enough power to run everything at one time if you so desire down to portable generators that you have to move outside, hook up, and run on gasoline to provide enough power to run selected amounts of items.

That said, as an 84 year-old couple, we recently permanently installed a 22KwH Generac, natural gas powered whole house generator with an automatic transfer switch which will allow us to run everything in our 2200 sq ft home, including the two HVAC systems, at the same time whether the temperature is 99 degrees outside as it is routinely here during most of the summer or whether it is 9 degrees outside as it is tonight with the ice and snow storm we are experiencing for five days.

We had talked about such a generator not too long ago but did not get to have it installed until shortly after we experienced a 69-hour total power outage in May of 2020 after a very severe two-day storm ravaged this part of the state. We watched out our dark rooms to see our neighbor's unit running constantly during those 69 hours. He was the envy of our 162-home community! :wink: We may, however, get to use ours for the first time if these snow/ice storms continue for the next three days!

You have to weigh the pros and cons and the costs involved in your decision. Great sense of security though when you have it.
Thanks. I actually saw the Generac when I Googled natural gas generators. Seems like they run around $5k to $6k, plus I'm guessing installation? While a seemingly a costly solution, I'd view it as peace of mind.

My main question would be, what is the possibility in such an event that not only is electric disrupted by gas too? I don't recall in 25 years ever experiencing as gas disruption. I do occasionally hear about gas line breaks or gas leaks but seems pretty rare.
The particular situation in Texas is precisely this.

Deep freeze leads to soaring gas demand.

At the same time it has disrupted coal fired and nuclear power stations. (Some wind farms but that is a much smaller proportion of supply and the Texas grid operator does not rely on wind power in periods of extreme stress because it is not "dispatchable" ie on demand).

So the reserve power is gas fired stations. By system design ERCOT (ie Texas grid) does not have high voltage connections to other states so it cannot pull power in from other states w sky high prices.

But the gas pressure has dropped because the domestic gas supply system has been prioritised. The pressure is too low for some reserve capacity to run.

So Catch 22. Electricity is out meaning gas supply is constrained meaning electricity is out.

(Apparently due to water vapour in the gas lines some lines have actually frozen or at least the valves have)


Power stations where harsh winters are more common are "winterised" to a greater extent. Fir example in New England they can switch to fuel oil, with reserves stored on site.

So an ekectricity and gas outage is more common in a cold emergency than a heat wave.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by willthrill81 »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:59 am
random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:54 am
ddurrett896 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:02 am Buy one of these and run 10/3 wire to a new 30 amp breaker in your panel. When you use generator, turn off main, turn on generator 30 amp breaker.

https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Generato ... s9dHJ1ZQ==
Yikes!!! Please don't do it this away. It's highly illegal and could get some poor lineman killed. If you're going to diy like this, at the very least, install a manual transfer switch. Your approach relies on a person to do things in proper order to not backfeed electricity to the lines. A manual transfer switch makes it idiot proof, which is the only way to make this reliably safe.
It's not the only way. A lockout is also completely safe, and meets code in most places as long as it is designed specifically for your load center. This is what I have in my basement, and use an inlet like the one linked above. It is physically impossible for the main and generator breakers to be on at the same time, so no risk of backfeeding into the grid.
Yes, an interlock is perfectly legal in most areas, including ours, and is very safe. It's physically impossible to energize the grid if it's installed properly.

That said, the cost of an interlock may be equal to a transfer switch, and given the choice between the two, I'd pick the transfer switch.
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random_walker_77
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by random_walker_77 »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:46 pm
lazydavid wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:59 am
random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:54 am
ddurrett896 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:02 am Buy one of these and run 10/3 wire to a new 30 amp breaker in your panel. When you use generator, turn off main, turn on generator 30 amp breaker.

https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Generato ... s9dHJ1ZQ==
Yikes!!! Please don't do it this away. It's highly illegal and could get some poor lineman killed. If you're going to diy like this, at the very least, install a manual transfer switch. Your approach relies on a person to do things in proper order to not backfeed electricity to the lines. A manual transfer switch makes it idiot proof, which is the only (a) way to make this reliably safe.
It's not the only way. A lockout is also completely safe, and meets code in most places as long as it is designed specifically for your load center. This is what I have in my basement, and use an inlet like the one linked above. It is physically impossible for the main and generator breakers to be on at the same time, so no risk of backfeeding into the grid.
Yes, an interlock is perfectly legal in most areas, including ours, and is very safe. It's physically impossible to energize the grid if it's installed properly.

That said, the cost of an interlock may be equal to a transfer switch, and given the choice between the two, I'd pick the transfer switch.
Yeah, I misspoke. Either of these are fine. Just don't use breakers and rely on someone flipping switches in the right order to avoid backfeeding to the grid.
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by rich126 »

I considered this for a while. When I first moved into my neighborhood back east, it seemed like someone could sneeze and the power would go out, even without snow/ice/thunderstorms/wind. I had 4 day outages, 5 day outages in both the hot humid summer and in the cold winter. It was frustrating. I strongly considered getting a generator but I wasn't planning to stay there long term and it kind of irked me that in a very nice affluent city/county I would need a generator in the US.

I think a number of people complained to their representative and finally something was done to make power more redundant because after the first few years the power became much more reliable and we no longer had multi-day outages.

I do think if you are staying long term and have reached a level of financial independence, it wouldn't hurt for peace of mind to get some form of generator. A whole house one is the costliest but probably the best. A small gas powered one is the cheapest (and kind them outdoors!) path but provides less power and requires more maintenance. In either case you are dependent on having a supple of natural gas or gasoline.

Sleeping in multiple layers of clothes when the room temp is 50s isn't fun. Nor is constantly throwing out thawed food in the summer.
----------------------------- | If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
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Re: Generators/ supplemental power generation

Post by willthrill81 »

MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:40 pm For what it's worth, I'm in Texas and never lost power. But I DiD lose gas. Sooo...yeah. Really cant prepare for everything. To me, cutting reliance on outside entities is where my mind goes. So a portable generator that uses gas is my go to, because I can choose to keep gasoline stored in cans / card independent of what the energy or natgas companies go through
Indeed, there's a first time for everything. Where we live in the inland Northwest, natural disasters that result in significant power outages are rare. But five years ago, there was a major straight-line wind storm just before Thanksgiving, and many homes were without power for days, some for weeks. Very few had generators or backup heat of any form.

The combined usefulness, cost, and flexibility of a portable generator is pretty high. I'm always confused when people talk about them being physically challenging to use. Just get one with wheels or put one on a cart, and get one with a battery start, if those are concerns. Granted, it's not as hands-off as a standby generator, but it's also a small fraction of the cost and can do things that a standby generator cannot do (e.g., be moved from one location to another).
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Valuethinker
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by Valuethinker »

MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:04 pm
random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:12 am
cpumechanic wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:28 am Suggestions that work for me

1.0 Wood stove in Basement with 3 cords of split hardwood outside basement sliding door.
2.0 800 gallons of propane at 0.99 cents per gallon sitting awating use in tank in side yard.
3.0 Ability to transfer liquid propane to smaller tanks to use to power propane heaters, grill, stove and generator to run home well pump and pump water.

4.0 Small RV in driveway to use in extreme emergency for cooling if absolutely needed.

Summary :

I can survive in 100F weather fairly easily, but I don't want to worry about freezing to death.

Best of luck to you, who knew 42% of the electricity in Texas was supplied by now frozen windmills (per WSJ this AM). [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Best of luck

CPU
Just to be clear, the windmill thing is overblown. There was even some news on (Saturday?) that, even with a sizeable fraction offline, it was extra windy and the remaining ones were delivering a little more electricity than would normally be expected from the farm.

Blaming windmills makes for good politics, but at this time of year, wind is a small fraction, and the bigger problems are the natural gas and nuclear plants that are down. All 3 could've been insulated and winterized, but prior to now, there was no economic justification. It also sucks that we have our own grid and can't borrow electricity from neighboring states.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16 ... es-frozen/
https://fortune.com/2021/02/16/texas-po ... -turbines/
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16 ... wer-storm/
They have been insulated and winterized - just not enough. It's untrue and unfair to imply that no effort has been made to protect for winter. Starting in at least 2011, authorities have had to prepare and present plans. 2018 was successful. This year, they failed. Sometimes, bad things happen despite plans.

And we can't let the failure of renewables go unnoticed / off the hook either. The % of renewables lost was insanely high. If we don't recognize this reality, the whole world will suffer as adoption increases. Texas is the leader in wind generation, and we lose a valuable opportunity for lessons learned if we let politics get in the way of energy / utility science and engineering.
The numbers i have read for wind lost was 25%? That's not insanely high?

Texas has a lot of wind for an American state. But the UK is 20% ish wind and runs to North Atlantic Hurricanes and yes, freeze ups. Heat waves are not a challenge in the way Texas is but Scotland (where over half the wind is, including offshore areas) has some pretty impressive winter storms.

And there's Denmark of course. And China (smaller percentages but the scale of generation...).

And didn't we borrow electricity from Mexico in 2011? And I thought I read we couldn't get power from them or SPP/ other states because they have their own issues from the same storm. Could be wrong

ETA: In my opinion, Texas energy policy got it right by taking an "all of the above" approach to generation - being #1 in wind in a state famous for oil and gas isn't the expected outcome. The fact that this happened DESPITE the diversity in supply makes it a perfect test case for resiliency planning. Sucks to live through though - lucky I'm only down on gas, as opposed to also power and water
Texas lacks High Voltage connections to other states. That is a quite deliberate policy choice, I believed framed into the law governing ERCOT.

Good news that reduces the opportunity to get caught in a black-out like 2003 where a transmission line going out in Ohio blacked out much of Eastern North America.

Bad news is that there is no one to call on when there is a supply shortage.

In a normal market the soaring price on ERCOT of a mwhr would pull in supply from adjacent territories. Which in turn would pull in supply from their adjacent states. Rippling out to Alberta and Georgia and whatever.

You would not, after all, constrain natural gas from flowing across state boundaries in a situation like this?

Tbh, I worry about Texas energy supply picture in heat waves a lot more, because that's also when you get days or weeks long low wind velocities. And peak demand *after* sunset so solar doesn't help you.

This situation sounds like Texas did not impose sufficient robustness criteria on its reserve power providers.

(A related problem is that the ERCOT market design did not include a Capacity Mechanism. In most other markets the system pays reserve capacity providers to stand ready, Texas relies on the possibility of super high pool prices to do that) I am somewhat vague as to the interrelationship between my points in these last 2 paragraphs.
lazydavid
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by lazydavid »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:46 pm Yes, an interlock is perfectly legal in most areas, including ours, and is very safe. It's physically impossible to energize the grid if it's installed properly.

That said, the cost of an interlock may be equal to a transfer switch, and given the choice between the two, I'd pick the transfer switch.
You're either looking at interlocks way more expensive than I am, or transfer switches way cheaper than I've ever seen. :)

A whole-house manual transfer switch would have cost me about $450, while a 6-circuit one goes for about $280, and a 10-circuit for about $350. Plus 6 or 10 new breakers for the sub-panel style, so call that another $50. Then there's the cost of the electrical work to either shut off power at the street and reroute the mains in the case of the whole-house unit, or pull 6/10 circuits out of your load center, into the transfer switch, and back again in the other two cases. Neither of those options is particularly cheap.

My interlock was $49, and I installed it myself in less than 10 minutes. :)
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firebirdparts
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Re: [Generators]/ supplemental power generation

Post by firebirdparts »

I find it very handy and cost effective. Since you have gas, it would be nice to have a gas powered generator. I do not, and so I have little choice but to carry gasoline. A gasoline generator big enough to power the whole house within reason is a pretty cheap item considering. I think I paid $700 for mine. A full auto generac is maybe $2500 ish materials cost and that seems well worth it to me.

To run the furnace, you need very little power. Running the air conditioner would require 6000 watts or more, depending on the compressor. Every year they squeeze a little more efficiency out of air conditioners.

Power management can be automated or you can do it yourself. Frankly i enjoy it. I’m strange that way.
This time is the same
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