Does company loyalty still exist?

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Humility101
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Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

Hello Bogleheads,

I am reaching out to hear your opinions on a difficult employment situation. I am a government contractor, and have left (and returned) to the same contract company... twice! We just won our recompete with 1 base year and 3 option years which means that there is likely some short term stabIlity. It is a very small IT services company with limited growth opportunity, but both times I returned to the company they welcomed me back when I was in a tough spot, not desperate, but also in situations that I had to leave.

I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.

Thoughts?!

Thanks,

Humility101
TheBeanCounter
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by TheBeanCounter »

What led to you coming back to the contracting company both times? It would seem like if you left twice for better jobs, you wouldn’t have had to come back to the contracting company. Hopefully that doesn’t come off as snarky, just trying to understand why those first two times didn’t work out.
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Tamarind
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Tamarind »

Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.

Looks like a nice offer, though I will add that at a small company, unlimited PTO is sometimes not a good thing. In those situations, it's not unlimited because you can take as much as you need. It's unlimited because they don't want to deal with the overhead of accounting for it, and if someone "abuses" it by taking more than the average they can be fired without any payout. Other places it is a genuine perk but just know YMMV.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by JDCarpenter »

If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.

I'd jump, with good faith notice to present employer.

P.S.--agree with Tamarind about unlimited PTO. Technically, I think both my wife and I had that in our small professional groups. The reason we retired when we did was that we wanted real time off!
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awval999
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by awval999 »

Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
This is the truth.

I do the best I can for my company. I am aware they are my employer. And that their success is my success.

But I am loyal to my boss.
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

TheBeanCounter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:35 pm What led to you coming back to the contracting company both times? It would seem like if you left twice for better jobs, you wouldn’t have had to come back to the contracting company. Hopefully that doesn’t come off as snarky, just trying to understand why those first two times didn’t work out.
Fair question and both times were quite bizarre stories. First time relocated for a permanent government job that I had waited a very long time for, and then a family court judge denied (after approving) the final relocation of my wife with my stepson. So had to choose between job and family if I stayed.

Second time, spent 8 months interviewing with a startup for a leadership position with some very prominent board members and growth potential, they finally hired me, three weeks later Covid hit and they did an across the board 50% paycut.

Been an interesting couple of years!

Thanks,

Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by abuss368 »

awval999 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:43 pm
Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
This is the truth.

I do the best I can for my company. I am aware they are my employer. And that their success is my success.

But I am loyal to my boss.
A lot to this unfortunately. Save cash, grow investments, and pay down debt. One never knows in the corporate world.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by abuss368 »

abuss368 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:46 pm
awval999 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:43 pm
Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
This is the truth.

I do the best I can for my company. I am aware they are my employer. And that their success is my success.

But I am loyal to my boss.
A lot to this unfortunately. Save cash, grow investments, and pay down debt. One never knows in the corporate world.

Best.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
TheBeanCounter
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by TheBeanCounter »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:45 pm
TheBeanCounter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:35 pm What led to you coming back to the contracting company both times? It would seem like if you left twice for better jobs, you wouldn’t have had to come back to the contracting company. Hopefully that doesn’t come off as snarky, just trying to understand why those first two times didn’t work out.
Fair question and both times were quite bizarre stories. First time relocated for a permanent government job that I had waited a very long time for, and then a family court judge denied (after approving) the final relocation of my wife with my stepson. So had to choose between job and family if I stayed.

Second time, spent 8 months interviewing with a startup for a leadership position with some very prominent board members and growth potential, they finally hired me, three weeks later Covid hit and they did an across the board 50% paycut.

Been an interesting couple of years!

Thanks,

Humility101
Sorry to hear that. They do both seem like out of the usual circumstances. Like people said above, if you’re doing things at work that cause you to not sleep, I would seek out other options.
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

I bought relationships with people, including a boss. I was loyal to them. No the company. Even with being loyal to the people, each of us have chosen to move on at different times.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
jaqenhghar
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by jaqenhghar »

awval999 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:43 pm
Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
This is the truth.

I do the best I can for my company. I am aware they are my employer. And that their success is my success.

But I am loyal to my boss.
This.
Normchad
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Normchad »

Company loyalty certainly still exists. Even if you’ve never seen it, it does exist.

Of course, it doesn’t exist everywhere. And more importantly, over the course of a long career, everything can change. For example, IBM was a guaranteed job for life place when I hired in, it isn’t anymore.

So nothing there is really actionable. So you don’t need to worry if you have it or not, your approach to life should be the same either way.

Being a government contractors has its pros and cons. One of the big cons is, they are the customer, and they pay upfront, so you are being hired to do specifically what they want, and do it the way they want it done. That can be very frustrating. One of the pros of course is, they never run out of money. (They might run out of money for *you*, but in general their financial gyrations are muted relative to the larger economy).

So I think that’s what you should think of. Do you want to be a government contractor, at all?

And if you do, then think about the company you are working with. Any contracting company with unlimited PTO, and you’re not on a specific project, I would not accept that job. That means you’re just on overhead, and you are the first thing to cut when times get tight.....

I’d also,look for a company that had multiple government contracts with a variety of gov customers. It’s not 7nusual to,lose a contract, and if you’ve only got one, everybody gets cut loose.....
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Hector »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.
Even though you left for "better" opportunities, they were no better and you still came back.
I think, grass is mostly green on the other side.

Regarding loyalty to company, some think that if you stay at one place for long time, you learned little different/new things. Some think that if you kept jumping, you were not loyal to a company in the past and probably will not be in the future. I would stop thinking about what others think.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by oldfort »

JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Tingting1013 »

Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
I have roughly $800k in RSUs vesting over the next three years dependent on me staying employed with the company.

They have bought my loyalty.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

Hector wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.
Even though you left for "better" opportunities, they were no better and you still came back.
I think, grass is mostly green on the other side.

Regarding loyalty to company, some think that if you stay at one place for long time, you learned little different/new things. Some think that if you kept jumping, you were not loyal to a company in the past and probably will not be in the future. I would stop thinking about what others think.
Regarding your first point, if you had my follow on reply you should have known that I left a position due to circumstances out of my control. Regarding your second point, I am trying to learn from others’ experiences.
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

Normchad wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:45 pm Company loyalty certainly still exists. Even if you’ve never seen it, it does exist.

Of course, it doesn’t exist everywhere. And more importantly, over the course of a long career, everything can change. For example, IBM was a guaranteed job for life place when I hired in, it isn’t anymore.

So nothing there is really actionable. So you don’t need to worry if you have it or not, your approach to life should be the same either way.

Being a government contractors has its pros and cons. One of the big cons is, they are the customer, and they pay upfront, so you are being hired to do specifically what they want, and do it the way they want it done. That can be very frustrating. One of the pros of course is, they never run out of money. (They might run out of money for *you*, but in general their financial gyrations are muted relative to the larger economy).

So I think that’s what you should think of. Do you want to be a government contractor, at all?

And if you do, then think about the company you are working with. Any contracting company with unlimited PTO, and you’re not on a specific project, I would not accept that job. That means you’re just on overhead, and you are the first thing to cut when times get tight.....

I’d also,look for a company that had multiple government contracts with a variety of gov customers. It’s not 7nusual to,lose a contract, and if you’ve only got one, everybody gets cut loose.....
Appreciate your feedback and understand the perspective coming from an IBM background in which job security was a real thing (my dad was GM for 35 years).

I wouldn’t say I would be transitioning to overhead directly...it is a product company, not service, and I would be supporting multiple government customers...just not tied to a specific contract.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by stocknoob4111 »

There is no such thing, it's a mutually beneficial business arrangement.. nothing more, nothing less. The moment either party thinks the arrangement isn't in their best interests it's Sayonara time!!!
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by anon_investor »

To the OP,

If your current company does not get a new contract after the current one expires, will they continue to employ you? If not, then I would take the new job. Loyalty has to work both ways.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by palaheel »

Normchad wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:45 pm
Of course, it doesn’t exist everywhere. And more importantly, over the course of a long career, everything can change. For example, IBM was a guaranteed job for life place when I hired in, it isn’t anymore.
It used to exist more; now it exists less and less. For IBM, it hasn't existed for around 25 years. One manager I had said "when I leave for the day, the company and I are even." I think he's right. Every day, I did my best to execute the corporate strategy. If a better opportunity arose, the company and I were even, and I would leave with no regrets. My employer would make similar decisions at the drop of a hat. Management who expect more loyalty than they can deliver are at best sincere, but untrustworthy. More likely, they are insincere, untrustworthy hypocrites.

If an ethical problem arose, I would have started looking to bail asap, or earlier.
Nothing to say, really.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by vinhodoporto »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
Not surprising at all. The way the acquisition system is set up incentivizes this type of behavior. Is whether you leave or stay going to change it? I totally understand not wanting to be a part of it, in which case you need to be looking outside of the government contracting world.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by JDCarpenter »

oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
Ethical issues are beyond "law, regulation, or agency policy." Exceptions exist for some fields, including lawyers, whose "ethical" obligations are codified by law or supreme court rule, and are often only tangentially related to what most people would consider ethics.
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

vinhodoporto wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:32 pm
Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
Not surprising at all. The way the acquisition system is set up incentivizes this type of behavior. Is whether you leave or stay going to change it? I totally understand not wanting to be a part of it, in which case you need to be looking outside of the government contracting world.
Thanks for the reply...and you address reasons why I am in an EMBA program and looking at the other company because they also have commercial verticals outside of the government contracting world!
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Normchad »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
Just my opinion, but you shouldn't work there anymore.... don't work anywhere that makes you feel skeevy......
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by oldfort »

JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:37 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
Ethical issues are beyond "law, regulation, or agency policy." Exceptions exist for some fields, including lawyers, whose "ethical" obligations are codified by law or supreme court rule, and are often only tangentially related to what most people would consider ethics.
The OP isn't a lawyer AFAIK.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by JDCarpenter »

oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:47 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:37 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
Ethical issues are beyond "law, regulation, or agency policy." Exceptions exist for some fields, including lawyers, whose "ethical" obligations are codified by law or supreme court rule, and are often only tangentially related to what most people would consider ethics.
The OP isn't a lawyer AFAIK.
Agree; hence his/her ethical precepts are above and beyond "law, regulation, or agency policy."
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by willthrill81 »

Tamarind wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:38 pm Individual loyalty to coworkers or bosses may exist. Company loyalty does not exist. Has not ever existed, IMO.
I'm not sure if it ever existed, but I think that it's minimal to non-existent today. And there's a good reason for it: very few companies are loyal to their employees. I can count on one hand the number of companies out there that I believe genuinely are loyal to their employees to some extent.

Virtually every business out there has employees for one and only one reason: to make them money. And the second that they no longer believe that the employees are doing that, they will cut them loose.
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by vinhodoporto »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm
I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.
Be careful that you’re not seeing this new opportunity through rose colored glasses, especially since you’ve left for “better” offers before and it hasn’t worked out.

A few specific thoughts:
1. Pay and benefits in the new role are slightly better. Could you get your current employer to match the $5k raise plus something to compensate for the better benefits, and bonuses?

2. What are the equity options worth? If you leave will you get anything?

3. Unlimited PTO is usually a red flag for me. It exists so the company doesn’t have to pay out people who leave.

4. The growth is good. For a company that small I’d want to know more about what was driving it. Was it just one customer or a one-off windfall? How sustainable is that rate of growth? How reliant is the company on one product or one client? If they lose that where will they be?

5. Just because the job is “with the company” doesn’t make it more secure. In fact, with that type of job you’re more likely to lose it at any time versus a contract role where you’re likely to be able to stay until the end of the contract.

6. You’ve boomeranged back to your current company twice. Will you be able to a third time if this new opportunity doesn’t work out?
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Meaty »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm Hello Bogleheads,

I am reaching out to hear your opinions on a difficult employment situation. I am a government contractor, and have left (and returned) to the same contract company... twice! We just won our recompete with 1 base year and 3 option years which means that there is likely some short term stabIlity. It is a very small IT services company with limited growth opportunity, but both times I returned to the company they welcomed me back when I was in a tough spot, not desperate, but also in situations that I had to leave.

I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.

Thoughts?!

Thanks,

Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by kiwi123 »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.
Company loyalty doesn't exist... it's all a 2-way transaction. If things are bad you'll get laid off without a second thought. And it sounds like you're good at what you do which is why they keep bringing you back on. And it's good that you;ve been able to benefit from them needing your skills. Anyway, it should be easy to find work again if things don't work (because you must have needed skills) out so the downside in limited.

If this is your first time at a "startup" company (i) unlimited PTO isnt actually real - you'll probably take 5-10 days per year in reality, (ii) getting a market rate or slightly better is good at a startup, (iii) ask how likely an average person at the company gets paid the quarterly bonus so you know how to value the bonus, (iv) options are great if the company does well and goes public and you're lucky - but don't assign any value to them as chances are you wont be able to benefit from them (e.g. company gets bought out, preferred shareholders take all the gains, company goes out of business, etc. etc.). You can do the math on the value of the options but at this stage it's easiest to value them at $0.

Join the new company if you're happy with the work, the company, your co-workers and boss, career potential, and the cash compensation.

Overall a good position for you to be in!
Topic Author
Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

vinhodoporto wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:54 pm
Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm
I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.
Be careful that you’re not seeing this new opportunity through rose colored glasses, especially since you’ve left for “better” offers before and it hasn’t worked out.

A few specific thoughts:
1. Pay and benefits in the new role are slightly better. Could you get your current employer to match the $5k raise plus something to compensate for the better benefits, and bonuses? They have already given me a significant raise this year, but my skills make me well positioned to request a counter offer. This doesn’t change my position toward the customer. Not to sound egotistical, but I am also a big reason they won the recompete in part based on my proposal writing and being liked by the customer. For this, my bonus was only increased 1k.

2. What are the equity options worth? If you leave will you get anything?This has not been negotiated yet.

3. Unlimited PTO is usually a red flag for me. It exists so the company doesn’t have to pay out people who leave.Understand your point here, but I also am not one to abuse the privilege and have work from home flexibility anyway.

4. The growth is good. For a company that small I’d want to know more about what was driving it. Was it just one customer or a one-off windfall? How sustainable is that rate of growth? How reliant is the company on one product or one client? If they lose that where will they be?Multiple customers both gov and commercial, multiple products going from 7 figures to 8 figure revenue, the product is B2B has a very large TAM and is based on AI/ML tech.

5. Just because the job is “with the company” doesn’t make it more secure. In fact, with that type of job you’re more likely to lose it at any time versus a contract role where you’re likely to be able to stay until the end of the contract. Point taken

6. You’ve boomeranged back to your current company twice. Will you be able to a third time if this new opportunity doesn’t work out?Probably yes due to my expertise and niche skillset, but not because I want to, but because of convenience.
oldfort
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by oldfort »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
If you can legitimately prove loss of life, ex. faulty software with Boeing 737, then you should go to the IG. That's what they're there for. If your complaint is the government spends money inefficiently, stop being so self-righteous or get out of government contracting all together. Often, funding decisions go all the way up to OMB or Congress. There are a near infinite number of government laws, rules, and regulations which can govern both the acquisition process and the trade space for solutions, and which a software engineer or low level IT guy wouldn't be aware of. If your complain is your company's relations might be awkward with partner company B, it's kind of crazy to think this should be the government's problem.
Trader Joe
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Trader Joe »

"Does company loyalty still exist?"

Yes, it definitely does still exist.
Bungo
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Bungo »

I've never known company loyalty to exist in my working lifetime (1985+). If you're good, a company may treat you well relative to how it treats its other employees, but it's not going to go out of its way to treat you well relative to the rest of your industry (your actual market value) unless you take concrete actions to make it do so.
ciscovp
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by ciscovp »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm Hello Bogleheads,

I am reaching out to hear your opinions on a difficult employment situation. I am a government contractor, and have left (and returned) to the same contract company... twice! We just won our recompete with 1 base year and 3 option years which means that there is likely some short term stabIlity. It is a very small IT services company with limited growth opportunity, but both times I returned to the company they welcomed me back when I was in a tough spot, not desperate, but also in situations that I had to leave.

I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.

Thoughts?!

Thanks,

Humility101
You never mentioned your age. This plays a big role in the decision. What a 50 year old will do is different from a 30 year old.
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:19 pm
Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:56 pm
JDCarpenter wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:40 pm If you are having trouble sleeping because of sole-customer driven ethical concerns, that's a dealbreaker all by itself.
I wouldn't classify anything the OP wrote as remotely close to an ethics violation. A real ethics violation would be if the OP was asked to do anything contrary to law, regulation, or agency policy. If there was a real ethics violation, the OP could report it to an inspector general. Instead, it seems the OP is whining because the government doesn't want to use the solution of a company they don't work at for reasons the OP might not be aware of.
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
If you can legitimately prove loss of life, ex. faulty software with Boeing 737, then you should go to the IG. That's what they're there for. If your complaint is the government spends money inefficiently, stop being so self-righteous or get out of government contracting all together. Often, funding decisions go all the way up to OMB or Congress. There are a near infinite number of government laws, rules, and regulations which can govern both the acquisition process and the trade space for solutions, and which a software engineer or low level IT guy wouldn't be aware of. If your complain is your company's relations might be awkward with partner company B, it's kind of crazy to think this should be the government's problem.
Actually I am well aware of the many infinite rules and regulations...and the program I fall under is scheduled to be audited next year. Its very convenient that all the Acquisition people I work for end up working as corporate executives for the companies they award business upon retirement. Are you one of them?
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GerryL
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by GerryL »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:49 pm I bought relationships with people, including a boss. I was loyal to them. No the company. Even with being loyal to the people, each of us have chosen to move on at different times.
My boss at Megacorp used to advise us: "Don't be more loyal to the company than the company is to you."
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

ciscovp wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:26 pm
Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm Hello Bogleheads,

I am reaching out to hear your opinions on a difficult employment situation. I am a government contractor, and have left (and returned) to the same contract company... twice! We just won our recompete with 1 base year and 3 option years which means that there is likely some short term stabIlity. It is a very small IT services company with limited growth opportunity, but both times I returned to the company they welcomed me back when I was in a tough spot, not desperate, but also in situations that I had to leave.

I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.

Thoughts?!

Thanks,

Humility101
You never mentioned your age. This plays a big role in the decision. What a 50 year old will do is different from a 30 year old.
Great point. I am 33 so 20+years of work ahead of me.
Trader Joe
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Trader Joe »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm Hello Bogleheads,

I am reaching out to hear your opinions on a difficult employment situation. I am a government contractor, and have left (and returned) to the same contract company... twice! We just won our recompete with 1 base year and 3 option years which means that there is likely some short term stabIlity. It is a very small IT services company with limited growth opportunity, but both times I returned to the company they welcomed me back when I was in a tough spot, not desperate, but also in situations that I had to leave.

I have been offered a job in the new year that pays (5k base) better, offers quarterly bonuses, equity options, unlimited PTO, and slightly better healthcare and retirement benefits. The new company is on a 100% year over year revenue growth trajectory and my position is not tied to any specific contract (it is “with the company”). It is still a startup (40 people) but they have a a strong growth pipeline with future business already contracted.

Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.

Would you stick around and tough it out given how nice the company has been in welcoming me back, or should I move on permanently to a position I would be happier in with growth opportunity, learning opportunities, and better benefits? Should I feel guilty about being a job hopper? The first two times I left were for better opportunities and similar disagreements with the customer.

Thoughts?!

Thanks,

Humility101
I would never, ever work for the government or as a government contractor.

Take your accumulated skills and experience to the private sector and never, ever look back.
gonefishing01
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by gonefishing01 »

Sure it exists. I mean, if you define a company as the people running it and their vision instead of a faceless brand. Maybe it’s uncommon and can certainly erode as head count grows; but I’ve seen first hand that there are good people out there consistently trying to do right by all the folks who contribute to a businesses success. That kind of behavior is generally rewarded with some degree of loyalty to the organization.
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Humility101
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Humility101 »

gonefishing01 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:07 pm Sure it exists. I mean, if you define a company as the people running it and their vision instead of a faceless brand. Maybe it’s uncommon and can certainly erode as head count grows; but I’ve seen first hand that there are good people out there consistently trying to do right by all the folks who contribute to a businesses success. That kind of behavior is generally rewarded with some degree of loyalty to the organization.
I feel like this has gradually eroded, at least in America, over the last 10-20 years. There were brands in the 80s and 90s in which people could work their entire lives, contribute to business success, and also have a very nice middle class standard of living without a huge risk of massive layoffs, benefit cuts, etc. Not sure we live in a country where that exists anymore unless you are a government employee or work for FAANG.
stan1
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by stan1 »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:15 pm
This is a really murky topic and I am not whining. What if I were to say that I support government acquisition people who award contracts to companies they have done business with for 20 years, but they attempt to do everything by the book to avoid scrutiny. Meanwhile, the purchase legitimately could put American lives in danger and the acquisition people reference “cost“ as an excuse. Meanwhile they have been paying the previously referenced vendors for years without said vendors providing operational utility. Cost is a red herring.
Well companies have to be cost conscious, also, and sometimes they make mistakes. That's not unique to the government. This board rakes Vanguard over the coals for cost cutting (wait times, taking away free perks). Boeing cut a few corners on the 737 MAX and in that case it appears the FAA helped them do it. An Astra Zeneca contractor messed up their COVID vaccine trials by giving improper dosages (they could have paid more for additional double checking). SolarWinds could have not used solarwinds123 as a default password but it was set that way I'm sure for convenience which is also a way of lowering costs (we don't know if that's how they were breached yet). Remember Takata air bags?

You have a few choices:
1) Ask your employer to put you on another contract (it happens all the time even in small companies as long as they are not one-contract companies and few want to have that dependency)
2) Find another job yourself (which it sounds like you have already done)
3) Develop a bad attitude and get laid off or government asks to have you removed from their contract
4) Seek to learn more and become an advocate for change but that means giving your boss and your client workable solutions not just complaints.
5) File a whistleblower complaint if you believe the problem is serious such as loss of life.

Since you've left multiple times due to disagreements with your client maybe you should not work in consulting (or as a contractor).
neverpanic
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by neverpanic »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:32 pm
ciscovp wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:26 pm You never mentioned your age. This plays a big role in the decision. What a 50 year old will do is different from a 30 year old.
Great point. I am 33 so 20+years of work ahead of me.
Make the move. You have plenty of time to make corrections if it doesn't work out.
I am not a financial professional or guru. I'm a schmuck who got lucky 10 times. Such is the life of the trader.
gonefishing01
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by gonefishing01 »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:15 pm
gonefishing01 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:07 pm Sure it exists. I mean, if you define a company as the people running it and their vision instead of a faceless brand. Maybe it’s uncommon and can certainly erode as head count grows; but I’ve seen first hand that there are good people out there consistently trying to do right by all the folks who contribute to a businesses success. That kind of behavior is generally rewarded with some degree of loyalty to the organization.
I feel like this has gradually eroded, at least in America, over the last 10-20 years. There were brands in the 80s and 90s in which people could work their entire lives, contribute to business success, and also have a very nice middle class standard of living without a huge risk of massive layoffs, benefit cuts, etc. Not sure we live in a country where that exists anymore unless you are a government employee or work for FAANG.
I agree that we’ve had a steadily shrinking middle class for at least the past 40 years. But that discussion veers into big politics. Just saying, good people running businesses do exist even if they might be few and far between. Don’t give up hope looking. :beer
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Helo80
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Helo80 »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm Further, I enjoy the people in my current company, but I despise my government customers and the way they do business. As an example, the customer is basically telling us to undermine a company that we are business partners with by having us implement a different software in which our partner competes with. I literally lose sleep over this because not only are we backstabbing a partner, but the “new“ capability is radically inferior (think 90s flip phone vs iphone). Everyone knows we are moving backward and just accepts it instead of admitting that it is a terrible idea. The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.
Ok, hold it right there. You are a contractor, the government is your customer. It is not your place to make a decision on what is best for them or what you perceive to be the right decision. The government is paying you to do a job so sit down and do it. Sure, you want to give them the best advice you can and you can certainly try to professionally steer them to the best course of action, but it's not beholden on you as to the merits of the decision.

As others have mentioned, if you suspect illegal, unethical, or criminal wrongdoing, you can make an IG complaint.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
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Helo80
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Helo80 »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:15 pm I feel like this has gradually eroded, at least in America, over the last 10-20 years. There were brands in the 80s and 90s in which people could work their entire lives, contribute to business success, and also have a very nice middle class standard of living without a huge risk of massive layoffs, benefit cuts, etc. Not sure we live in a country where that exists anymore unless you are a government employee or work for FAANG.
Ok, you need to read more on FAANG then if you think they reward company loyalty and that you'll have a job for life once you get into the club.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
rj49
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by rj49 »

Stephan Pollan wrote about company loyalty in his book "Die Broke", basically saying you should quit today, meaning always be looking for the next job.

Another good view of the perils of company loyalty is the film "About Schmidt", which is the most devastating view of retirement and company loyalty and marriage I've seen.

I'd think that it largely depends on your skill set and opportunities--if you're in IT, then it would seem to be relatively easy to transfer to an employer that doesn't involve all the regulation and idiocy of government contracting. You might end up with less job security, but more freedom and opportunity to prosper and enjoy work, even if freedom involves more risk and uncertainty. It seems to me, though, that the people and companies prospering now are those willing to do things differently, whether it's working from home or relocating an office, whereas traditional ways of running companies or government aren't working well in a rapidly-changing world (like Moderna's vaccine created on January 13 but not allowed to save lives until today).
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by flaccidsteele »

Humility101 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm The customer greatly values my contribution and knowledge, but is asking me to support something that I don’t think is right.
It doesn’t sound like they greatly value your contribution and knowledge

Unless you haven’t told them that you don’t think what they’re doing is right, and haven’t indicated that you won’t stab your partner in the back

Then I can see how you think that of them
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Rudy Tooty
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Re: Does company loyalty still exist?

Post by Rudy Tooty »

Company loyalty went out of style back in the 1980's. The companies started it by throwing American workers under the bus by offshoring, downsizing and turning full-time into part-time jobs. So workers returned the favor. But both sides lose in that business scenario. Everyone was doing the same thing. Upon finding a better job the first plan of action was to update the resume to look for more pay and benefits elsewhere. The attitude was 'backstab them before they backstab you'. Very unhealthy work environment.
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