Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Anyone following what's happening in Germany right now?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wire ... SKBN23P24Q
This company is listed on the DAX, so one of the 30 biggest companies in Germany.
- firebirdparts
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Where I've seen it discussed, there's been some discussion about how much Wirecard debt various EU banks have, and how much the bank stocks could be affected. I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess we'll see. I've certainly been tempted to put some quotes from "Office Space".
This is a payment processor, so I would have thought they were rolling in a big room full of doubloons myself.
This is a payment processor, so I would have thought they were rolling in a big room full of doubloons myself.
This time is the same
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Yikes. And last year the financial watchdog actually filed a criminal complaint against the journalists that exposed this: https://www.ft.com/content/8e1948be-606 ... cd5d43599e. Doesn't look like prosecutors actually charged the case, but that's a lot of egg on BaFin's face.
Oh, and another brilliant investment by Softbank! /s/
Oh, and another brilliant investment by Softbank! /s/
- firebirdparts
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Softbank sure knows how to pick them these days.
This time is the same
- happyisland
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Holy mackerel!
I just read an article on FT that closed with a paragraph that is a great reminder that "nobody knows nothin":
I just read an article on FT that closed with a paragraph that is a great reminder that "nobody knows nothin":
Source: https://www.ft.com/content/b3d664db-17c ... bd667e290eAnalysts from at least half a dozen banks still had “buy” recommendations on Wirecard stock ahead of this week’s shattering news, several with outlandish price targets. Marius Fuhrberg of Warburg Research, for instance, told clients on June 11 that he saw what was then a 146 per cent upside for the shares, publishing a target price of €230. Knut Woller of Baader Helvea topped that with a forecast of €240, while Heike Pauls of Commerzbank, who has repeatedly and aggressively dismissed criticisms of Wirecard, set her €230 target price in mid-May, heralding a “strong buying opportunity” when the shares were trading at “an excessive discount”.
- Quercus Palustris
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
2nd largest mutual fund holder of WDI.DE is Vanguard Total International (VGTSX), at 1.51%
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
What? Germany is 5.7% of this fund and Wirecard makes up 0.5% of Germany, so 0.03% in Wirecard.Quercus Palustris wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:24 pm 2nd largest mutual fund holder of WDI.DE is Vanguard Total International (VGTSX), at 1.51%
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
I think the earlier post means 1.51% of Wirecard is held by VGTSX/VTIAX.Stef wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:10 pmWhat? Germany is 5.7% of this fund and Wirecard makes up 0.5% of Germany, so 0.03% in Wirecard.Quercus Palustris wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:24 pm 2nd largest mutual fund holder of WDI.DE is Vanguard Total International (VGTSX), at 1.51%
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Stef wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:59 am
Anyone following what's happening in Germany right now?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wire ... SKBN23P24Q
This company is listed on the DAX, so one of the 30 biggest companies in Germany.
Sounds like fraud by the third parties and Wirecard. Will be interesting to see where the 1.9 billion euros of cash went.Thursday’s news involves cash that’s consolidated on Wirecard’s balance sheet but held in third-party trust accounts. There are signs that third parties provided “spurious balance confirmations” to EY, with the aim of deceiving the accountants for Wirecard’s benefit, the company said. As a result, Wirecard’s audited 2019 financial statements were not released as planned. If they’re not published by Friday, lenders can terminate 2 billion euros’ worth of loans.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Well of course, VGTSX is the largest international index fund in the world. (And the 11th largest mutual fund overall). If they didn’t own that much they wouldn’t be an “index fund”.Quercus Palustris wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:24 pm 2nd largest mutual fund holder of WDI.DE is Vanguard Total International (VGTSX), at 1.51%
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
So that implies they own 1.5% of all ex-US, right?
That’s actually kinda amazing.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
My boss bought wirecard in march during the dip and was braging at work how much he already had made with. Then it all came crashing down within hours. Can't say i am unhappy about this
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Stock pickers are always talking about the winners, but never talk about their losses. It's like casino players. In the end the house (the market) will always be the winner.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Just listened to an interesting episode of NPR's Invisibilia podcast with a strange Wirecard connection. The newest episode, "Trustfall".
Sure sounds like Wirecard hired some thugs and a hacker-for-hire company to try to silence a short seller who was calling attention to their fraud.
Sure sounds like Wirecard hired some thugs and a hacker-for-hire company to try to silence a short seller who was calling attention to their fraud.
Last edited by SunDevil on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Not bust as yet, but perhaps that is to come. Bonds are at 53 cents.Stef wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:59 am
Anyone following what's happening in Germany right now?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wire ... SKBN23P24Q
This company is listed on the DAX, so one of the 30 biggest companies in Germany.
Impressively messy. Another Parmalat (Italian dairy company that collapsed just after Enron, as I recall).
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Another unfortunate victim of the Wirecard debacle are the thousands of global cruise ship crew, whose wages are paid through, and often held (for “safekeeping”), by Wirecard. These poor victims have been through enough already, with what the entire industry is going through. As anyone who is following the travails of this industry knows, many of these crew have been kept from returning home through no fault of their own, and now this.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Roughly speaking yes. For instance they hold:
1.5% of SIE.DE (Siemens on the German exchange)
1.6% of LLOY.L (Lloyds on the London exchange)
1.2% of 7203.T (Toyota on the Japanese exchange)
There's a whole science to tracking an index without owning every single stock in the index at the exact percentage of their capitalization. So out of smaller stocks some might not even be in the index fund while others are overweight to make up for that. It seems like for stocks that have a very large percentage of the market's capitalization you'd need to have pretty close to similar amounts of them as the few examples above show.
Indeed!That’s actually kinda amazing.
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Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
Yup, have been for a while. I generally viewed Germany as a place of sanity, strength, and reliability. I was already questioning that based on the Volkswagon emissions scandal, the Bayer purchase of Monsanto, and the existence of Deutsch Bank.
Now add WireCard.
Some will undoubtedly use this as a justification of American exceptionalism, conveniently ignoring Enron, Lehman etc. My take away is that the system, such as it is, does nothing to guarantee that any of the stocks in my index holdings aren't outright frauds.
The amount of debt-driven money sloshing around incentivizes impropriety, if not outright crime. Why not have creative accounting? Get in, get rich, get out. Lou Pai got out of Enron with $250 million.
Some of that is my money.Quercus Palustris wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:24 pm 2nd largest mutual fund holder of WDI.DE is Vanguard Total International (VGTSX), at 1.51%
The idea that this is the "cost of doing business" is ridiculous.
This is the cost of inadequate oversight, disproportionally light consequences, and investor apathy. This is the cost of runaway, irrational, debt. Every investor understands how pernicious irresponsible personal debt is, but they fail to extrapolate.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
There is a thread in the German forum Ariva.de "Wirecard best stock 2014-2025". Pretty entertaining if you are able to read German.
So many tragic stories! One guy was close to retirement and was invested only in Wirecard, now looking at a -490k loss. One other guy invested 250k and bought even more with a loan (also only invested in Wirecard). Sold everything last Friday and now left with a 61k debt with 9% interest. Just 2 examples that shocked me.
So many tragic stories! One guy was close to retirement and was invested only in Wirecard, now looking at a -490k loss. One other guy invested 250k and bought even more with a loan (also only invested in Wirecard). Sold everything last Friday and now left with a 61k debt with 9% interest. Just 2 examples that shocked me.
Re: Wirecard scandal / Germany's Enron
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