My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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Does this help? Posting images in the Bogleheads forum

Note that you can upload the file to Google Drive. If you get stuck, post the shareable link here and I'll fix the format.

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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Lugerhead »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:41 pm Does this help? Posting images in the Bogleheads forum

Note that you can upload the file to Google Drive. If you get stuck, post the shareable link here and I'll fix the format.

FYI - The maximum image size is 1200px X 1200px (each side).
I’ll give it another try sometime. I’ve already been to how to upload images and gave up. Hate to say it but I think its beyond me. I’ve always been able to things like this before, but this is a tough one.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

Lugerhead wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:48 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:50 pm
CULater wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:23 am Old news, but I find the parallels to the CRV oil dilution issue rather interesting. This one involved the opposite problem of oil getting into the combustion chamber of the V-6 with cylinder deactivation. Just as with the CRV, Honda mislead and denied and never issued a recall even though there were hundreds of complaints. Then they finally got sued and settled a class action. Deja Vu anyone?
DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.

The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.

The original suit -- filed in March 2012 by plaintiffs Alex Soto and Vince Eagen -- claimed the vehicles contained a "systematic design defect that enables oil to enter into the engine's combustion chamber." The alleged defect led to "premature spark plug degradation and engine malfunction," court documents said.

The plaintiffs claimed Honda hid the problem from consumers. Honda denied the allegation, despite receiving hundreds of online complaints on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Web site, and about 130 on carcomplaints.com concerning the 2008 Accord alone.

Honda later issued a technical service bulletin notifying its technicians to check for the defect. The automaker did not issue a recall because a safety issue was not discovered.
https://www.autonews.com/article/201310 ... ning-claim
Honda Acknowledges The Oil Problem In TSB #11-033 - In July of 2011 Honda quietly acknowledged the problem in the form of a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB #11-033). The TSB says the probable cause of the problem is the VCM (variable cylinder management) and should be fixed by a simple software update at a certified Honda mechanic.
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Pil ... tion.shtml
Yes - old news unrelated to the engine we have in these cars and CRV.
Please confirm the news on the current issue with the new Honda 1.5 turbo engine.
Please post the metal content from the oil analysis that you performed?
I/we can use that data to help determine if we should also get an oil analysis performed on our cars/CRV's with oil dilution issues.
Smitcat, I’d love to post my 3 analysis for you to see but can’t. Went through the procedure to do so on this forum and got to where I’d paid $18 to do so and decided I just wasn’t going to do that. I’ll be glad to email the copies if you want to private message me your email address.
I did three on my 2017 CRV I bought in 17 to determine how long I could run the oil and still have proper oil viscosity. As long as the viscosity stays in the proper range, I’m not to concerned metal wearing. It may be interesting for you to see.

Thank you very much for your post , my nieces car has some oil dilution due to the gas issue and we don't have any other problems.
We know that gas oil dilution is not a great thing but we also know that many cars have gas dilution.
The real issue is if the level of oil dilution is causing any reasonable harm.
We see no performance issues at all and all the oil analysis we see so far says the TBN number is fine for extended usage.
So far not one oil analysis we have heard about online has shown any metal wear indicators with these engines - so even when the oil dilution is large there is no wear items in the oil. The wear indicators would be the only actual concern if they showed up but it appears so far that these oil analysis are not warranted from what we see.
Thank you again....
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

There must be the potential for metal wear, or Honda would not have issued a TSB to service departments to check for cam and rocker arm wear and they wouldn't have extended the powertrain warranty to cover this. Somebody, somewhere has been experiencing this. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with similar direct injected turbo engines doing this, have you?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:13 am There must be the potential for metal wear, or Honda would not have issued a TSB to service departments to check for cam and rocker arm wear and they wouldn't have extended the powertrain warranty to cover this. Somebody, somewhere has been experiencing this. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with similar direct injected turbo engines doing this, have you?
Please post the results for one or all of your oil analysis that has the metal contaminant numbers.
Thank you
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

smitcat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:56 am
CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:13 am There must be the potential for metal wear, or Honda would not have issued a TSB to service departments to check for cam and rocker arm wear and they wouldn't have extended the powertrain warranty to cover this. Somebody, somewhere has been experiencing this. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with similar direct injected turbo engines doing this, have you?
Please post the results for one or all of your oil analysis that has the metal contaminant numbers.
Thank you
I think you're missing the point I keep trying to make. Fishing around for a few oil analysis reports just isn't going to be that helpful, IMO. The engine has the potential for abnormal wear due to oil dilution and one should act accordingly if they own one and avoid buying one if they don't.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:46 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:56 am
CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:13 am There must be the potential for metal wear, or Honda would not have issued a TSB to service departments to check for cam and rocker arm wear and they wouldn't have extended the powertrain warranty to cover this. Somebody, somewhere has been experiencing this. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with similar direct injected turbo engines doing this, have you?
Please post the results for one or all of your oil analysis that has the metal contaminant numbers.
Thank you
I think you're missing the point I keep trying to make. Fishing around for a few oil analysis reports just isn't going to be that helpful, IMO. The engine has the potential for abnormal wear due to oil dilution and one should act accordingly if they own one and avoid buying one if they don't.

Oil analysis yield facts....
And I think your missing the actual facts ….
- Your past oil analysis proves TBN is not an issue ...and yours is the worst dilution I have heard of as described by you
- all other oil tests I have read about so far show no atypical wear items
- it appears that your 3 tests show no atypical wear items either
- as mentioned before I have owned engines with heavy dilution before , never an issue

These oil analysis that have been done so far are supporting the fact that there is no atypical wear on tested engines.

'The engine has the potential for abnormal wear due to oil dilution and one should act accordingly if they own one and avoid buying one if they don't.'
- This is theory and conjecture so far unless we get some actual facts
- your thoughts no other engines & cars exhibit problems that can be verified are not fact either.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

The fact is that Honda itself has identified abnormal cam and rocker arm wear as a potential issue with the 1.5T engine. If that weren't the case and there weren't actual cases where this has occurred they wouldn't have issued a TSB and a warranty extension. I'd take that is the best evidence and not a sampling of a few oil analysis reports. As I said, one should take prudent measures to assess abnormal wear if you own this vehicle and avoid buying one if you don't. Perhaps Honda will fix this engine in the next version -- I'd wait until then to see.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 am The fact is that Honda itself has identified abnormal cam and rocker arm wear as a potential issue with the 1.5T engine. If that weren't the case and there weren't actual cases where this has occurred they wouldn't have issued a TSB and a warranty extension. I'd take that is the best evidence and not a sampling of a few oil analysis reports. As I said, one should take prudent measures to assess abnormal wear if you own this vehicle and avoid buying one if you don't. Perhaps Honda will fix this engine in the next version -- I'd wait until then to see.
I have taken prudent measures to assess wear and so have you.
Would you please share any facts that you have related to this issue?
What is currently actionable with this thread? What is new information on this thread? What is the added value of facts?
I am searching for facts, new value and any actionable item(s) that are new.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Chip »

CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 am The fact is that Honda itself has identified abnormal cam and rocker arm wear as a potential issue with the 1.5T engine. If that weren't the case and there weren't actual cases where this has occurred they wouldn't have issued a TSB and a warranty extension. I'd take that is the best evidence and not a sampling of a few oil analysis reports. As I said, one should take prudent measures to assess abnormal wear if you own this vehicle and avoid buying one if you don't. Perhaps Honda will fix this engine in the next version -- I'd wait until then to see.
Is it safe for me to assume that since you won't provide the wear metal information from your oil analyses that there is no abnormal wear shown in those reports?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Red Spot »

Chip wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:24 pm
CULater wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 am The fact is that Honda itself has identified abnormal cam and rocker arm wear as a potential issue with the 1.5T engine. If that weren't the case and there weren't actual cases where this has occurred they wouldn't have issued a TSB and a warranty extension. I'd take that is the best evidence and not a sampling of a few oil analysis reports. As I said, one should take prudent measures to assess abnormal wear if you own this vehicle and avoid buying one if you don't. Perhaps Honda will fix this engine in the next version -- I'd wait until then to see.
Is it safe for me to assume that since you won't provide the wear metal information from your oil analyses that there is no abnormal wear shown in those reports?
Of course it is safe for you to assume that – after all everyone is entitled to their own assumptions
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Dead Man Walking »

I recently had my 2014 CRV serviced. Honda sent me a survey asking me about my satisfaction with my dealer’s service. One of the questions asked me about my likelihood of purchasing another Honda. My response was that I would not buy another Honda due to this problem. If enough owners make this declaration, Honda may correct the problem. Since the CRV continues to get high recommendations from many third parties, Honda probably doesn’t give a rat’s tail about Honda owners perceptions of their “wonderful” vehicles.

DMW
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Winston19 »

I am an 07 crv owner about to replace the crv with a Mazda CX-5. The oil dilution was a factor but the biggest factor was we liked the CX5 quite a bit more (drove better, nicer interior, driver tech is less intrusive). Only place where the crv seemed better was back seat room. It helped that we are already happy mazda owners (Mazda5 which in 7 years has had no issues).
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Morse Code »

Dead Man Walking wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:50 pm...Honda probably doesn’t give a rat’s tail about Honda owners perceptions of their “wonderful” vehicles.

DMW
And yet, they asked you, a Honda owner, your perception of their vehicles.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Morse Code »

I took my 2018 CRV EX on a road trip last weekend. Drove about 300 miles under ideal conditions, mostly highway, and averaged 36 mpg with 87 octane gas. My only symptom of this problem is a consistently higher reading on my dipstick, but there are no other signs of problems after 17,000 miles. Fuel economy continues to exceed expectations.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dspencer »

I had to take my 2017 CR-V in due to a bad battery. The battery dying was annoying, but it was replaced for free under warranty. They also did the A/C controller update. They said that was to get the engine temperature up faster. I asked if that was due to the oil dilution issue and they said "Every car has that, but it might be excessive in these. It shouldn't be a problem if you drive it" They recommended to "step on it" on occasion. They didn't charge me for the oil change either.

So nothing has really changed. The car still runs fine and I am happy with it, other than the gnawing concern about this issue.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

I've gotten a warning on the dashboard a couple of times so far, something like "Airbag (SRS) Problem". I rebooted by turning the engine off. Took it to the dealer and was told that when the warning is displayed it means the airbag system is non-functional and probably indicates that the battery has insufficient charge. I guess that would be an indicator if your battery is unexpectedly running down. If it recurs, I was told to bring the vehicle in to see what the problem is. I knew the 2019 CRV is having lots of problems with the battery running down quickly for some reason. Didn't know this might affect other model years like mine as well. Hopefully just a random glitch but keep an eye on it. Just wanted to let you know about this.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

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The battery failed on my 2017 CRV at 18,700 miles. It failed vey suddenly. No problem at all when we left home for the grocery 0.5 miles away. But when we came out it, made a brief whirring noise on the first attempt to start, then went silent.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by LadyGeek »

Please stay on-topic, which about the oil-gas dilution issue. Dead batteries can be discussed in a different thread (or start a new one).
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by jacksonm »

Recently received a letter from Honda acknowledging the problem in some cars and extending the warranty period.

I've had no hint of it myself on my 2018 model but I'm glad to hear they did that.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by zaplunken »

Looking at a 4 cylinder 2005 or 2006, forget the year, CRV. I assume those engines don't have the problem being discussed in this thread based upon the year of manufacture?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by Winston19 »

zaplunken wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:25 pm Looking at a 4 cylinder 2005 or 2006, forget the year, CRV. I assume those engines don't have the problem being discussed in this thread based upon the year of manufacture?
2017 and newer turbos.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by zaplunken »

Winston19 wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:20 pm
zaplunken wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:25 pm Looking at a 4 cylinder 2005 or 2006, forget the year, CRV. I assume those engines don't have the problem being discussed in this thread based upon the year of manufacture?
2017 and newer turbos.
Thank you. I have followed this thread starting a few days after it was created but there's been so much said I wasn't 100% sure if older CRVs exhibited the oil dilution problem. I thought it was just 2016 or 2017 and newer, I knew the turbo engine was also part of the issue.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by BeachPerson »

Yesterday I purchased a Toyota RAV4. The salesman mentioned that Honda is having problems with the gas oil dilution issue. The same company owns both the Honda and Toyota dealerships.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by prd1982 »

BeachPerson wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:27 am Yesterday I purchased a Toyota RAV4. The salesman mentioned that Honda is having problems with the gas oil dilution issue. The same company owns both the Honda and Toyota dealerships.
But would the salesman have been compensated if you had bought a Honda?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

prd1982 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:54 am
BeachPerson wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:27 am Yesterday I purchased a Toyota RAV4. The salesman mentioned that Honda is having problems with the gas oil dilution issue. The same company owns both the Honda and Toyota dealerships.
But would the salesman have been compensated if you had bought a Honda?
I was shopping with a friend at a multiple brand dealership. He was at Hyundai but was able to bring a Honda HRV over for her to look at and said he could handle the Honda purchase if that's what she wanted to do. So, the salespeople were able to work any brand the dealership carried. That salesman did you a big favor.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by camper1 »

Discovered this thread after searching for posts on new compact SUVs. We are currently looking at purchasing in early 2020. Have looked at 2019 CRV, 2020 Forester and Rav4. Have not yet considered Mazda CX5 because of smaller cargo space.

I was not aware of the OD issue with the CRV until reading this thread and then also researching on CRV forums. Obviously this seems to be a significant issue with the 2017-2018 models. However, looking at carcomplaints.com and CRV forums, there does not seem to be a clear answer as to whether this is a significant issue after any fixes made in 2019. I am especially interested to find if owners of 2019 models are having as many issues and whether or not the issue has been dealt with for the 2020 model.

2020 models are still not in the showroom, but my question is how prevalent is the issue with 2019's (compared to 2017,2018)and if I'm looking at 2020's in March-April of 2020, will that be enough time for data concerning OD to be available on 2020 models? We really liked the CRV and would probably choose over the Forester, but I do not want to purchase a 2020 if the problem has not been rectified.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

camper1 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:32 am Discovered this thread after searching for posts on new compact SUVs. We are currently looking at purchasing in early 2020. Have looked at 2019 CRV, 2020 Forester and Rav4. Have not yet considered Mazda CX5 because of smaller cargo space.

I was not aware of the OD issue with the CRV until reading this thread and then also researching on CRV forums. Obviously this seems to be a significant issue with the 2017-2018 models. However, looking at carcomplaints.com and CRV forums, there does not seem to be a clear answer as to whether this is a significant issue after any fixes made in 2019. I am especially interested to find if owners of 2019 models are having as many issues and whether or not the issue has been dealt with for the 2020 model.

2020 models are still not in the showroom, but my question is how prevalent is the issue with 2019's (compared to 2017,2018)and if I'm looking at 2020's in March-April of 2020, will that be enough time for data concerning OD to be available on 2020 models? We really liked the CRV and would probably choose over the Forester, but I do not want to purchase a 2020 if the problem has not been rectified.
I don't believe the problem is gone. Still some complaints being posted on Carcomplaints.com. Same engine as the 2017-2018 with the ineffective software "fix" applied. Maybe you should consider the 2020 CRV Hybrid coming out instead of the flawed 1.5 Turbo.

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by camper1 »

CULater wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:26 am

I don't believe the problems is gone. Still some complaints being posted on Carcomplaints.com. Same engine as the 2017-2018 with the ineffective software "fix" applied. Maybe you should consider the 2020 CRV Hybrid coming out instead of the flawed 1.5 Turbo (I don't know much about it).

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml
Thanks for the link. Are 16 complaints for 2019 significant compared to the 2017 with 318 complaints https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml and 2018 with 324 complaints https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml ?

Does this mean the fix has worked for 2019 or is that not an adequate way to interpret carcomplaints.com data?

I understand the problem with the 2017 and 2018, but I am trying to find a reason to justify not considering the 2019 or2020 if there are no longer significant amounts of complaints. If the issue was not fixed should there not also be hundreds of complaints for 2019 as there are in 2017 and 2018? Any 2019 owners care to chime in? I do not want to pass on considering the CRV if there is evidence the issue is solved in 2019.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by jabberwockOG »

camper1 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:32 am Discovered this thread after searching for posts on new compact SUVs. We are currently looking at purchasing in early 2020. Have looked at 2019 CRV, 2020 Forester and Rav4. Have not yet considered Mazda CX5 because of smaller cargo space.

I was not aware of the OD issue with the CRV until reading this thread and then also researching on CRV forums. Obviously this seems to be a significant issue with the 2017-2018 models. However, looking at carcomplaints.com and CRV forums, there does not seem to be a clear answer as to whether this is a significant issue after any fixes made in 2019. I am especially interested to find if owners of 2019 models are having as many issues and whether or not the issue has been dealt with for the 2020 model.

2020 models are still not in the showroom, but my question is how prevalent is the issue with 2019's (compared to 2017,2018)and if I'm looking at 2020's in March-April of 2020, will that be enough time for data concerning OD to be available on 2020 models? We really liked the CRV and would probably choose over the Forester, but I do not want to purchase a 2020 if the problem has not been rectified.

Excessive oil dilution will likely cause problems as the car ages and puts on normal mileage. At some point with higher mileage the excess wear due to gasoline diluted oil will start to cause problems. No one knows for sure at what higher mileage point problems will start to be evident, but I personally would not own a 1.5 liter turbo engine CRV especially after the warranty period has run out.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by fast_and_curious »

FWIW, I purchased a 2019 Honda Accord with the 1.5T engine in May - same one as being discussed here for the CRV. At the time of my purchase, I was not aware of the oil dilution issue, despite being a frequent bogleheads reader. Perhaps I had come across this thread but thought the issue was specific to CRVs.

Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution. The results were < 0.5% fuel in the oil and the comments (that's one reason I like Blackstone for oil analysis - actual human analysts give comments on each analysis in addition to the numbers) said, "Honda seems to have taken care of that problem [oil dilution] in their 2019 engines." I assume, but don't really know, that that comment is based on the analyst's impression across multiple engines & vehicles.

Just giving this datapoint FWIW. It should be noted that I tend to drive mostly longer distances (~ 30 mile commute) and this analysis covered the summer time period, whereas the fuel dilution issue is supposed to be worse in cold weather / short distance driving. So perhaps my engine would give different numbers if driven differently.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

camper1 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:17 pm
CULater wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:26 am

I don't believe the problems is gone. Still some complaints being posted on Carcomplaints.com. Same engine as the 2017-2018 with the ineffective software "fix" applied. Maybe you should consider the 2020 CRV Hybrid coming out instead of the flawed 1.5 Turbo (I don't know much about it).

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml
Thanks for the link. Are 16 complaints for 2019 significant compared to the 2017 with 318 complaints https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml and 2018 with 324 complaints https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/CR- ... gine.shtml ?

Does this mean the fix has worked for 2019 or is that not an adequate way to interpret carcomplaints.com data?

I understand the problem with the 2017 and 2018, but I am trying to find a reason to justify not considering the 2019 or2020 if there are no longer significant amounts of complaints. If the issue was not fixed should there not also be hundreds of complaints for 2019 as there are in 2017 and 2018? Any 2019 owners care to chime in? I do not want to pass on considering the CRV if there is evidence the issue is solved in 2019.
Fewer complaints for 2019, but it's apparently still there for some people. It's one thing if you've never heard of the problem and don't check your own oil much; but it's another thing if you are aware and concerned - harder to ignore and it's just a PITA. Never know for sure if you'll draw the short straw. Shouldn't have to worry about something like this when you're plunking down a wad of cash for a new vehicle, IMO. There are other very nice SUVs out there without the issue. Or you could lease and let Honda own the problem. I'd check out the hybrid. It looks like it will be quicker than the 1.5 T and you'll also avoid the acceleration noise. Lots of people I know going to hybrids for better performance and reliability these days.
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camper1
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by camper1 »

fast_and_curious wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:35 pm FWIW, I purchased a 2019 Honda Accord with the 1.5T engine in May - same one as being discussed here for the CRV. At the time of my purchase, I was not aware of the oil dilution issue, despite being a frequent bogleheads reader. Perhaps I had come across this thread but thought the issue was specific to CRVs.

Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution. The results were < 0.5% fuel in the oil and the comments (that's one reason I like Blackstone for oil analysis - actual human analysts give comments on each analysis in addition to the numbers) said, "Honda seems to have taken care of that problem [oil dilution] in their 2019 engines." I assume, but don't really know, that that comment is based on the analyst's impression across multiple engines & vehicles.

Just giving this datapoint FWIW. It should be noted that I tend to drive mostly longer distances (~ 30 mile commute) and this analysis covered the summer time period, whereas the fuel dilution issue is supposed to be worse in cold weather / short distance driving. So perhaps my engine would give different numbers if driven differently.
That's positive to hear! Hopefully some 2019 CRV owners can chime in on their experiences with this issue.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

fast_and_curious wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:35 pm FWIW, I purchased a 2019 Honda Accord with the 1.5T engine in May - same one as being discussed here for the CRV. At the time of my purchase, I was not aware of the oil dilution issue, despite being a frequent bogleheads reader. Perhaps I had come across this thread but thought the issue was specific to CRVs.

Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution. The results were < 0.5% fuel in the oil and the comments (that's one reason I like Blackstone for oil analysis - actual human analysts give comments on each analysis in addition to the numbers) said, "Honda seems to have taken care of that problem [oil dilution] in their 2019 engines." I assume, but don't really know, that that comment is based on the analyst's impression across multiple engines & vehicles.

Just giving this datapoint FWIW. It should be noted that I tend to drive mostly longer distances (~ 30 mile commute) and this analysis covered the summer time period, whereas the fuel dilution issue is supposed to be worse in cold weather / short distance driving. So perhaps my engine would give different numbers if driven differently.
"Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution."
Were there any metals or wear items of significance in your oil tests?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

jabberwockOG wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:22 pm
camper1 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:32 am Discovered this thread after searching for posts on new compact SUVs. We are currently looking at purchasing in early 2020. Have looked at 2019 CRV, 2020 Forester and Rav4. Have not yet considered Mazda CX5 because of smaller cargo space.

I was not aware of the OD issue with the CRV until reading this thread and then also researching on CRV forums. Obviously this seems to be a significant issue with the 2017-2018 models. However, looking at carcomplaints.com and CRV forums, there does not seem to be a clear answer as to whether this is a significant issue after any fixes made in 2019. I am especially interested to find if owners of 2019 models are having as many issues and whether or not the issue has been dealt with for the 2020 model.

2020 models are still not in the showroom, but my question is how prevalent is the issue with 2019's (compared to 2017,2018)and if I'm looking at 2020's in March-April of 2020, will that be enough time for data concerning OD to be available on 2020 models? We really liked the CRV and would probably choose over the Forester, but I do not want to purchase a 2020 if the problem has not been rectified.

Excessive oil dilution will likely cause problems as the car ages and puts on normal mileage. At some point with higher mileage the excess wear due to gasoline diluted oil will start to cause problems. No one knows for sure at what higher mileage point problems will start to be evident, but I personally would not own a 1.5 liter turbo engine CRV especially after the warranty period has run out.
Are you aware of any oil tests that show increased wear of metals or any other wear indicators with this engine?
prd1982
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by prd1982 »

I have the 2017 CRV, and haven't seen the problem. I wasn't checking before the fix, but the oil level hasn't gone up since applied. I live in the north east, so it does get cold here. Note that the issue is excessive oil dilution.

I found the summary for an interesting 2019 Mazda CX-3 TSB (Tech Service Bulletin):

TSB ID #SA-026-18
If a vehicle is driven on extremely short trips most of the time (where the engine never reaches normal operating temperature), the engine oil may become diluted with fuel and the engine oil level will increase. Engine oil dilution with fue ....

Unfortunately I cannot find the entire bulletin. But apparently is telling the reps that some dilution is normal.

Found the summary by searching: tsb sa-026-18
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

prd1982 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:59 pm I have the 2017 CRV, and haven't seen the problem. I wasn't checking before the fix, but the oil level hasn't gone up since applied. I live in the north east, so it does get cold here. Note that the issue is excessive oil dilution.

I found the summary for an interesting 2019 Mazda CX-3 TSB (Tech Service Bulletin):

TSB ID #SA-026-18
If a vehicle is driven on extremely short trips most of the time (where the engine never reaches normal operating temperature), the engine oil may become diluted with fuel and the engine oil level will increase. Engine oil dilution with fue ....

Unfortunately I cannot find the entire bulletin. But apparently is telling the reps that some dilution is normal.

Found the summary by searching: tsb sa-026-18
Fuel dilution of oil seems to be common with direct fuel injection engines, particularly when they are also turbos which is the usual configuration. Hard to avoid these engines nowadays. Engines used to be port-injected so that fuel actually got burned in the cylinders and not scavenged into the oil crankcase. Toyota engines seem to utilize both port and direct injection in order to mitigate the problem, as well as Ford which went from DI to DI/PI in the F-150, and to my knowledge the engines in hybrid vehicles don't have the problem. Turbo, direct injected engines are done better by some manufacturers who have been doing it for some time, such as Audi; and done more poorly by others, such as Honda. Might pay to do some research before buying. Caveat Emptor.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by jabberwockOG »

Some amount of oil dilution by fuel is normal and happens with any car engine over time. Even in well designed engines, a very small amount of unburned gasoline typically gets past the rings in the combustion chambers and that tiny amount of gasoline ends up mixed in the oil that circulates to protect the engine. One of the reasons it is important to change oil per factory recommendations is to avoid excessive fuel dilution that builds up in the old oil over time. Modern oils are designed to still protect the moving parts of the engine even with a small amount of gasoline in it over normal factory recommended change intervals (OCI).

The problem comes in when an engine is not working properly or is badly designed, resulting in significant amounts of gasoline going into the oil. When the dipstick reads up to a quart high because of gasoline in the oil that is extreme fuel oil dilution. When the oil is significantly diluted with gasoline its viscosity (and other built in oil characteristics that protect the engine) is degraded and the oil cannot provide the same protective layer of lubrication at various operating temps and metal on metal (bearing) pressures.

Been working on my own cars and motorcycles for 50 years. My apology for being blunt but anyone claiming that the amount of fuel dilution going on with some of these engines is not a problem is either lying (perhaps they have some agenda with regard to this engine or vehicle/brand), or they have no clue what they are talking about.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Honda has, of course, taken the position that a certain amount of fuel dilution of the oil is "normal" for their direct injected engines. I'm uncomfortable with the propaganda to normalize this phenomenon. I remember the good old days when you checked your oil dipstick to determine if you needed to add a little oil between oil changes. You carried a quart of oil in your trunk in case you needed it. Now when you check your oil dipstick on a Honda 1.5T engine it is to determine just how much above the overfill mark the gasoil mixture is. It is never, ever at or below the overfill mark. You will never again need to use that quart of oil you used to haul around in your vehicle. Just how high is "normal", according to Honda? Not specified. So even if you keep detailed records with supporting photos, you're likely to get stuck for engine repairs that may be eventually caused by fuel dilution because that's "normal" for this engine, and Honda is the decider as to what "normal" means, apparently.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by fast_and_curious »

smitcat wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:24 pm "Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution."
Were there any metals or wear items of significance in your oil tests?
There were higher than average metals & silicon in the oil analysis - here are the numbers that were significantly higher than the average. Units are ppm:

Code: Select all

             Mine:    Average:
Aluminum       16            8
Iron           31            1
Copper         33            2
Molybdenum    595           94
Boron         103           58
Silicon       172           22

However, recall that this was the very first oil change on a new vehicle. The analyst's comment about this part of the report was, "There's some excess metal and silicon in the oil, but that's normal, from wear-in and sealers. Look for improvements from here."

So I'm not particularly worried - the main number I was looking for in this first report was the fuel dilution. I don't routinely do oil analysis on my cars, so I probably won't on the next oil change, but maybe I'll do another one in a year or two, just to make sure the fuel dilution remains low and to double check the wear metals.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

fast_and_curious wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:34 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:24 pm "Anyway, I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone at my first oil change a month or so ago, specifically looking for fuel dilution."
Were there any metals or wear items of significance in your oil tests?
There were higher than average metals & silicon in the oil analysis - here are the numbers that were significantly higher than the average. Units are ppm:

Code: Select all

             Mine:    Average:
Aluminum       16            8
Iron           31            1
Copper         33            2
Molybdenum    595           94
Boron         103           58
Silicon       172           22

However, recall that this was the very first oil change on a new vehicle. The analyst's comment about this part of the report was, "There's some excess metal and silicon in the oil, but that's normal, from wear-in and sealers. Look for improvements from here."

So I'm not particularly worried - the main number I was looking for in this first report was the fuel dilution. I don't routinely do oil analysis on my cars, so I probably won't on the next oil change, but maybe I'll do another one in a year or two, just to make sure the fuel dilution remains low and to double check the wear metals.
Thank you - Yes , on an initial oil fill those numbers are actually low and that is often seen on many initial fill oil tests.
I believe the follow on oil tests (if any) will confirm or dispel any wear issues that you may be concerned about.
Thanks again....
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

jabberwockOG wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:35 pm Some amount of oil dilution by fuel is normal and happens with any car engine over time. Even in well designed engines, a very small amount of unburned gasoline typically gets past the rings in the combustion chambers and that tiny amount of gasoline ends up mixed in the oil that circulates to protect the engine. One of the reasons it is important to change oil per factory recommendations is to avoid excessive fuel dilution that builds up in the old oil over time. Modern oils are designed to still protect the moving parts of the engine even with a small amount of gasoline in it over normal factory recommended change intervals (OCI).

The problem comes in when an engine is not working properly or is badly designed, resulting in significant amounts of gasoline going into the oil. When the dipstick reads up to a quart high because of gasoline in the oil that is extreme fuel oil dilution. When the oil is significantly diluted with gasoline its viscosity (and other built in oil characteristics that protect the engine) is degraded and the oil cannot provide the same protective layer of lubrication at various operating temps and metal on metal (bearing) pressures.

Been working on my own cars and motorcycles for 50 years. My apology for being blunt but anyone claiming that the amount of fuel dilution going on with some of these engines is not a problem is either lying (perhaps they have some agenda with regard to this engine or vehicle/brand), or they have no clue what they are talking about.
"Been working on my own cars and motorcycles for 50 years. My apology for being blunt but anyone claiming that the amount of fuel dilution going on with some of these engines is not a problem is either lying (perhaps they have some agenda with regard to this engine or vehicle/brand), or they have no clue what they are talking about."


Do you have any 3rd party oil tests on this engine showing high wear items in the tests? Would you please share those results?
Thank you
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Information regarding the gasoline engine in the 2020 CRV Hybrid. Note there is no turbo. I don't know about fuel injection but I'd guess it's direct fuel injection because that's all Honda makes. The RAV4 Hybrid uses a 2.5L engine with dual port/direction injection and no turbo. Either one will probably be more trouble-free. I'd be takin a close look at the CRV hybrid if that's the vehicle I was shopping. Better yet, the RAV4 hybrid or non-hybrid.
The new hybrid drivetrain, which is similar to the one found in the Accord hybrid, uses a naturally aspirated Atkinson-cycle 2.0-liter inline-four gas engine and two electric motors.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2909 ... otos-info/
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

Just received this information from Polaris Labs, oil analysis laboratory, discussing oil contamination.
FUEL DILUTION
It is normal to see low levels of fuel in engine oils as a byproduct of the combustion/ignition process. When fuel levels start to exceed 1%, the lubricant's viscosity will begin to decrease. As the percent of fuel in oil increases the lubricant's ability maintain a full fluid film and protect against boundary wear is decreased. Fuel in oil will also dilute additives which could lead to other wear and performance issues. Some engines are more prone to high fuel dilution, but this does not mean that the fuel will not harm the engine.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

CULater wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:53 am Just received this information from Polaris Labs, oil analysis laboratory, discussing oil contamination.
FUEL DILUTION
It is normal to see low levels of fuel in engine oils as a byproduct of the combustion/ignition process. When fuel levels start to exceed 1%, the lubricant's viscosity will begin to decrease. As the percent of fuel in oil increases the lubricant's ability maintain a full fluid film and protect against boundary wear is decreased. Fuel in oil will also dilute additives which could lead to other wear and performance issues. Some engines are more prone to high fuel dilution, but this does not mean that the fuel will not harm the engine.
Interesting - did you get any further oil tests that would confirm a lack of TBN or an increase in wear metals in your engine now that you have higher mileage on it?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by core4portfolio »

We really need some 2017/2018/2019 CR-V driver who drove 100k miles so far can able to answer this wear and tear if they do oil analysis
Like some taxi drivers, extensive drivers can respond so that we know what it looks like at 100k miles.

I guess if my CR-V comes 100k miles then iam all set..iam driving only 6k miles per year and now being work commute is Bus, i think it will go down to 3k mostly.

In FB, i saw people with 2017 upto 50k without any issues.

Anyone with 100k miles in 2017 CR-V turbo engines ?
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by dknightd »

I share the OP's concern. Even though I do not own this vehicle and engine.

Some oil dilution is normal. Especially if the vehicle takes many short trips. Short trips are hard on an engine.

I suspect the engine will outlive the warren-tee. If the trips are short, then they will outlive the time warrantee. If the trips are longer, then contaminates will burn off.

If in 10 years this is still a problem, then people will not want to buy a 2017 crv with this engine. So it will be worth less than a CRV with a different engine. Or maybe more, who knows. I look for 20 years out of a car. If I get one that is only good for 10 years that is a bummer, but not the end of the World.

It would not surprise me if the OP's car lasted 20 years. As long as it did not get involved in an accident. Or perhaps rust away.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by CULater »

smitcat wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:18 am
CULater wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:53 am Just received this information from Polaris Labs, oil analysis laboratory, discussing oil contamination.
FUEL DILUTION
It is normal to see low levels of fuel in engine oils as a byproduct of the combustion/ignition process. When fuel levels start to exceed 1%, the lubricant's viscosity will begin to decrease. As the percent of fuel in oil increases the lubricant's ability maintain a full fluid film and protect against boundary wear is decreased. Fuel in oil will also dilute additives which could lead to other wear and performance issues. Some engines are more prone to high fuel dilution, but this does not mean that the fuel will not harm the engine.
Interesting - did you get any further oil tests that would confirm a lack of TBN or an increase in wear metals in your engine now that you have higher mileage on it?
I don't believe that the mileage I had accumulated on the CRV as of the last oil analysis I did would be sufficient to reveal the long term effects of fuel dilution in that engine. All the analyses I had done indicated a critical level of fuel dilution greater than 5%, which I estimated was at least 10%-15% based on interpolating the fluid level on the dipstick.

I've stopped paying for any further analyses, as I won't own this vehicle long enough to care what fuel dilution does to the engine with time. I'd suggest that, rather than worry with this issue, prospective buyers consider a different brand or certainly a Honda vehicle without the 1.5T engine. Current owners might consider dumping their CRV before the power train warranty runs out in 5 years or 60K miles. The power train warranty extension to 6 years and unlimited mileage on the 2017-18 CRV isn't worth much because it is limited to camshaft damage, so I'd not wait that long. Maybe it's fine, maybe it's OK to have a half-quart or more of gas in the oil as some seem to be suggesting. But it seems goofy to base continued ownership of the vehicle on that specious assumption, IMO.
Last edited by CULater on Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

core4portfolio wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:47 am We really need some 2017/2018/2019 CR-V driver who drove 100k miles so far can able to answer this wear and tear if they do oil analysis
Like some taxi drivers, extensive drivers can respond so that we know what it looks like at 100k miles.

I guess if my CR-V comes 100k miles then iam all set..iam driving only 6k miles per year and now being work commute is Bus, i think it will go down to 3k mostly.

In FB, i saw people with 2017 upto 50k without any issues.

Anyone with 100k miles in 2017 CR-V turbo engines ?
Nope - my niece is up to 55K in a civic- same engine. No problems whatsoever so far, no oil tests done on that car yet.
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Re: My 2017 CRV is a victim of the dreaded oil gas-dilution issue

Post by smitcat »

CULater wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:18 am
CULater wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:53 am Just received this information from Polaris Labs, oil analysis laboratory, discussing oil contamination.
FUEL DILUTION
It is normal to see low levels of fuel in engine oils as a byproduct of the combustion/ignition process. When fuel levels start to exceed 1%, the lubricant's viscosity will begin to decrease. As the percent of fuel in oil increases the lubricant's ability maintain a full fluid film and protect against boundary wear is decreased. Fuel in oil will also dilute additives which could lead to other wear and performance issues. Some engines are more prone to high fuel dilution, but this does not mean that the fuel will not harm the engine.
Interesting - did you get any further oil tests that would confirm a lack of TBN or an increase in wear metals in your engine now that you have higher mileage on it?
I don't believe that the mileage I had accumulated on the CRV as of the last oil analysis I did would be sufficient to reveal the long term effects of fuel dilution in that engine. All the analyses I had done indicated a critical level of fuel dilution greater than 5%, which I estimated was at least 10%-15% based on interpolating the fluid level on the dipstick.

I've stopped paying for any further analyses, as I won't own this vehicle long enough to care what fuel dilution does to the engine with time. I'd suggest that, rather than worry with this issue, prospective buyers consider a different brand or certainly a Honda vehicle without the 1.5T engine. Current owners might consider dumping their CRV before the power train warranty runs out in 5 years or 60K miles. The power train warranty extension to 6 years and unlimited mileage isn't worth much because it is limited to camshaft damage, so I'd not wait that long. Maybe it's fine, maybe it's OK to have a half-quart or more of gas in the oil as some seem to be suggesting. But it seems goofy to base continued ownership of the vehicle on that specious assumption, IMO.
"I don't believe that the mileage I had accumulated on the CRV as of the last oil analysis I did would be sufficient to reveal the long term effects of fuel dilution in that engine. All the analyses I had done indicated a critical level of fuel dilution greater than 5%, which I estimated was at least 10%-15% based on interpolating the fluid level on the dipstick."
TBN was good, no excessive wear metals detected - you are proving Honda's is correct so far.

"I've stopped paying for any further analyses, as I won't own this vehicle long enough to care what fuel dilution does to the engine with time."
Perhaps if you got poor test analysis you would continue - but its not prudent to look for problems that do not exist.

What is actionable - as stated in the earlier parts of this thread you could trade this vehicle out for a high value and replace it with another vehicle of your liking. There were other posters that did just that and were not out much money at all - and they are now happy with their new vehicles.
That is actionable , that will solve for your issues, that can be a solution to your current conundrum.
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