Is it time to block meme stock posts?

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TomatoTomahto
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Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?

The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
rebellovw
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by rebellovw »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?

The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I was thinking the same exact thing yesterday - I completely agree with you - it serves no purpose here.
terran
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by terran »

The new Forum rule 4c that applies to crypto discussions says:
Greater Fool Investing Strategies

Eventually, one runs out of greater fools. - Burton Malkiel

Discussions of investment strategies based on securities or physical assets that have no underlying value or negative expected long term returns are prohibited. Examples include: cryptocurrencies; lottery tickets; tulip bulbs; Ponzi, pyramid, and multi-level marketing schemes; affinity frauds; and market manipulation schemes
I could see both sides of the argument for/against applying this to meme stocks. On the one hand, they do have some underlying value given that they represent ownership a company, which it could be argued distinguishes them from crypto. On the other hand, they definitely seem to be relying on finding a "greater fool" for any expected return. Now, if you really want to get some people (not me) bothered, is Tesla a meme stock?
Last edited by terran on Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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eye.surgeon
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by eye.surgeon »

My opinion, for what it's worth...there's a big different between dogecoin threads which clearly have no utility here and discussion of stocks, even if those stocks are having speculative non-sensical runups. They're still stocks of legitimate revenue-generating companies that are widely held by members here if mostly in mutual funds.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by mikejuss »

I'll be responding to this post in full after I've finished taking out a personal loan in order to buy Bed Bath & Beyond stock.
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SmileyFace
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by SmileyFace »

I find some of the posts very entertaining (someone said yesterday that "investing in AMC" wasn't gambling - lots of mathematical analysis involved - hilarious; someone else wtih an ironic username that seemed to indicate they invested like bogle was talking about how much they had made on AMC - gave me a good chuckle) but can see how they can negatively impact less epxerienced/knowledegable investors.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by RickBoglehead »

One thing that I noticed is that many of these threads are started by newcomers. Why are they joining this forum to discuss speculation when it's the antithesis of the forum's beliefs? :oops:
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by MishkaWorries »

The new rule would seem to be able to handle this situation. GME, AMC and TSLA are actual companies with assets. Therefore they don't fit into the new rule.

But if someone started a post about how everyone needs to buy these stocks and force the price up to make a killing on the shorts, then that would be banned under the market manipulation prohibition.
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gwe67
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by gwe67 »

I suggest consolidating such meme stock posts into mega-threads, such as "GME Mega-Thread", "AMC Mega-Thread", "BB Mega-Thread", etc.

The sheer number of crapto posts was making this forum look like it endorsed crapto speculation.

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MishkaWorries
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by MishkaWorries »

RickBoglehead wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:05 am One thing that I noticed is that many of these threads are started by newcomers. Why are they joining this forum to discuss speculation when it's the antithesis of the forum's beliefs? :oops:
I think the reason is everyone knows* Bogleheads is the premiere site for financial information. Therefore it is natural newbies will come here when they don't understand or are uncertain. That's how I landed here.

So it may be a good thing the new posters get a lecturing about buy and hold, etc.

*I've seen so many posts on Reddit, YouTube, WSJ, etc telling people to come here because of the depth of experience and knowledge. This site is truly a marvelous thing.
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mortfree
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by mortfree »

Is there anything on the wiki page regarding these types of occurrences?
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ensign
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by ensign »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?

The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
Yes. “Meme stocks” (I hate the term) are pointless tripe.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by SmallSaver »

One of the strengths of the Bogleheads approach is that is it empirically grounded and well-supported against criticism. One of the benefits of this board is interesting perspectives from smart people on a range of issues. I'm afraid that the more discussions we ban the more dogmatic and less interesting this place will become. I am in favor of consolidating them into mega-threads, that keeps the main page clean and the threads easy to avoid for the people who don't like them.
Last edited by SmallSaver on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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starboi
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by starboi »

We should also block posts on investing in precious metals since they produce no cash flow and therefore rely on the greater fool theory. Without cash flow you cannot calculate net present value.

Or ban discussion on individual stocks. Because Bogleheadism is about index funds.

The meme stock thing is really about short squeezing. Buying up the free float on a heavily shorted stock. If GS did it, no one would blink an eye, but people on R*ddit do it and all of a sudden it's a concern.
Last edited by starboi on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
barnaclebob
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by barnaclebob »

I think there could be an ongoing collector thread to capture random discussion about the events that are going on.

But if a newcomer comes on here with a "should I invest in GME, crypto, or whatever happens to be a hot trend at the moment" Their post should be locked with a boilerplate response about this forums beliefs with some links to the wiki and the standard submission format. This would cut down on low effort clutter about whatever the hot trend is while still being friendly to beginners who want to put it a little effort. It would be up to the mods to determine what trends are causing too much clutter and repetitive topics. If someone comes on now to ask about gold i'd say let it stand because we aren't getting 15 "should i go 100% in gold" posts every week at the moment. In 3 months if gold shoots up 10x and we get those posts then give them the boilerplate/lock treatment.
Last edited by barnaclebob on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Elric
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Elric »

These types of threads are educational and should not be banned from Bogleheads, even if they aren't part of the Bogleheads philosophy. Speculating an affordable amount of your funds on a short squeeze is a legitimate play, and many Bogleheads at least tolerate, if not support, doing non-Boglehead investments with "play money." See many, many threads.

I think the best move would be to create a sub-forum titled something like "Off-Topic: non-Boglehead investments" with a sticky or header on the first post of each thread with language on how non-long term, individual stocks, non-low fee investments are all contrary to Bogleheads investment approach.

Still ban attempts to potentially manipulate a stock, Ponzi schemes, and other outright frauds.

I'm betting many, and maybe even most, subscribers to this forum have some investments that don't fully meet Bogleheads criteria. For myself, my largest holdings are in low cost index funds, and I follow an IPS, but I hold other investments as well. Some are well-performing legacy funds held in taxable, others are ones that I believe, rightly or wrongly, will enhance performance.over the long haul. No short-term speculation or crypto personally, but I learn from the wisdom of some fellow Bogleheads even on these topics.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Elric »

SmallSaver wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:08 am One of the strengths of the Bogleheads approach is that is it empirically grounded and well-supported against criticism. One of the benefits of this board is interesting perspectives from smart people on a range of issues. I'm afraid that the more discussions we ban the more dogmatic and less interesting this place will become. I am in favor of consolidating them into mega-threads, that keeps the main page clean and the threads easy to avoid for the people who don't like them.
:thumbsup Exactly my thoughts. Rather than master threads, though, create an Off-Topic, non-Bogleheads sub-forum with appropriate warnings so no one will mistakenly think they consistent with Bogleheads belief. But don't [expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] down the discussion. Are these newbies and naive investors folks worry about going to be better off if their only source of information is Reddit?
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Ramjet
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Ramjet »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?

The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I vote no. People can think for themselves and don't need your help policing the forum. Why are we treating adults like children?
BV3273
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by BV3273 »

Block em.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Jags4186 »

I hardcore vote no as it becomes a slippery slope. Sure there is massive manipulation in Gamestop, AMC, etc., but these are legitimate US companies that are traded on exchanges and not OTC pink sheets. These are companies traded in the index funds we own. If you want to kill discussion on this, you might as well kill any and all discussion about equity investing and just direct everyone to the Wiki.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Ramjet wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:27 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?
The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I vote no. People can think for themselves and don't need your help policing the forum. Why are we treating adults like children?
There are many topics that adults discuss which are not allowed on BH; my friends and I discuss them often but I don't post them (well, there was that time I got banned for a couple of weeks :D ).

Of course people can think for themselves, as they can on religion, politics, and so on. My worry is that constant mention of these stocks makes them seem normal, which to me they are anything but.

ETA: I guess I should distinguish the stocks, which are "normal," from the trading activity, which is not. I guess a rule of thumb might be if Matt Levine heads his column with "Money Stuff will be off tomorrow, unless AMC does something particularly nuts I guess," it's a sign.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by rob »

YES... If a security like crypto is ban then all the other stuff against the direction of the Bogle philosophy should also.... no stock up/down with it's 10's of thousands of posts, no market manipulation....

Bogle didn't want non US, so all those "overseas" stuff should go also.... Bogle didn't advocate small cap/REIT/HY bond so they should all go as well.

...then we can start on the books ;-)
Last edited by rob on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Da5id
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Da5id »

While the site owner will do what he chooses, I'd vote no. I think meme stocks are silly and not at all boglehead. I do appreciate it if all posts related to them are kept in an individual thread per stock so they don't clutter the main page. And I guess if these threads became too prevalent they'd be a signal to noise problem. But as it is doesn't seem worth any rule changes to the site.

e.g. there is one GME megathread. There are 3 AMC threads active right now, would be nice if they were consolidated. But I realize that excessive work for the volunteer moderators is also undesirable.
Last edited by Da5id on Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by RJC »

Agree with the OP. At least temporarily to cool things down.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Lastrun »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:40 am I hardcore vote no as it becomes a slippery slope. Sure there is massive manipulation in Gamestop, AMC, etc., but these are legitimate US companies that are traded on exchanges and not OTC pink sheets. These are companies traded in the index funds we own. If you want to kill discussion on this, you might as well kill any and all discussion about equity investing and just direct everyone to the Wiki.
+1 and well said
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Ramjet »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:41 am
Ramjet wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:27 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?
The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I vote no. People can think for themselves and don't need your help policing the forum. Why are we treating adults like children?
There are many topics that adults discuss which are not allowed on BH; my friends and I discuss them often but I don't post them (well, there was that time I got banned for a couple of weeks :D ).

Of course people can think for themselves, as they can on religion, politics, and so on. My worry is that constant mention of these stocks makes them seem normal, which to me they are anything but.

ETA: I guess I should distinguish the stocks, which are "normal," from the trading activity, which is not. I guess a rule of thumb might be if Matt Levine heads his column with "Money Stuff will be off tomorrow, unless AMC does something particularly nuts I guess," it's a sign.
Cancel culture in full effect at Bogleheads lately :oops: :shock:
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by Shallowpockets »

Lets block meme real estate too. HCOL areas with soaring house prices. No underlying reason.
jarjarM
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by jarjarM »

Consolidate them into a single mega thread like GME would be suffice in my view. There's no need to ban all of the discussion. Also, how do we define meme stock? What if some reddit user posted a meme on BRK.A or GE or GM? The line is too fine for enforcement. So I vote for no, for what it's worth. :beer
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by calwatch »

I'd consolidate all discussion in one thread, and if it becomes an epidemic that a dozen or two dozen specific stocks are discussed, deal with it then.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by sambb »

is TSLA a stock that would be blocked from discussion also?
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MrBobcat
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by MrBobcat »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:49 am The board has disallowed crypto posts. Is it time to do the same for meme stocks (eg, AMC)?

The entertainment value exists, but I worry that it might induce bad behavior by “normalization.”
I'm okay with mega threads to make it easier to wade through and find topics that interest you.

That being said the threads in question (crypto included) have been educational to me in helping to understand what was going on, and IMO have some value. For me it did the opposite of inducing bad behavior and if anything made it even more unlikely to ever gamble with crypto or meme stocks.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by fwellimort »

Most people here are not encouraging anyone to buy these stocks.

People here are just informing what is 'going on' in the current news with some of these stocks.
Blocking these 'meme stocks' go on a very slippery slope.

Where does it end?
Should we ban all real estate questions cause trust the market is always right?
Should we ban all college questions cause trust the market knows what's best for the child?
Should we ban all commodities like gold topics cause market is always right?
Should we ban all bond (I-Bonds, Corporate Bonds, etc.) topics cause market is always right?
Should we ban <pretty much everything> and direct everyone to Boglehead wiki page?

Then what about international investing. Should those be banned or is that fine by Boglehead belief.

Where is the limit.
There's nothing wrong with being educated about current events. Making an investment choice from informed decision is what people should be encouraging. Not blindly forcing everyone to invest in a certain manner.

Look. If new people ask here how to invest, then most people answer back about index funds and all.
If new people want to know what's going on with the equities market currently, then they make a separate post about it. And I don't think Bogleheaders here are forcing people here to buy or whatever. Instead, giving informed knowledge of what's going on.
In fact, most Boglehead people will warn the people (sometimes to the extreme) of how much of a 'speculation'/'gamble' these 'plays' are and to stay clear from them.

Also, what's a 'meme stock'. Tesla was a meme stock.
Google was a meme stock. Amazon was a meme stock. Facebook was a meme stock. AMD was a meme stock.
What is a 'meme stock'. When is a 'meme stock' accepted as a 'non-meme stock'.

And why are active fund topics even allowed then. Clearly, it's not Boglehead like. Not even Wellesley.
In fact, I find 'Wellesley' in my personal opinion to be a 'meme active fund' that encourages new investors to invest in active or passive funds. It's mentioned by many and for some reason, it's an 'exception' to all the active funds without any real reasoning other than 'past performance' while touting 'past performance is not indicative of future returns'. This reasoning to me is very circular. I thought Bogleheaders as a whole should be discouraging active funds outside possibly 'fun money'.

I believe informed knowledge when it comes to investing (reading different perspective) is critical to making better self judgements.
Many people here are informing how risky these 'meme stocks' are and how investors can expect to lose almost everything.
That's a far better knowledge to be had than FOMO-ing into these 'meme stocks' due to lack of information of current events.

If there must be some sort of 'regulation', then I think consolidating to one big threads stating clearly these are NOT boglehead posts is better.
I mean, look at the risk parity approach investing. How come that wasn't banned? Because it made great returns? Where's the threshold.
Do we block whoever we don't agree with as a general consensus? I'm still confused how no one has blocked posts about risk parity and all if these topics show up as those are clearly not Boglehead like philosophy (taking huge leverage on a bet of positive returns in the future).
Last edited by fwellimort on Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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grogu
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by grogu »

Please stop with all this censorship nonsense. The crypto ban was bad enough. People can ignore what they’re not interested in and otherwise can think for themselves (including thinking about whether something is “normal”).
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

I thought the moderators said that they were not going to crowd-source this policy. Why are all of you crowd-sourcing?
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by finite_difference »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 pm I thought the moderators said that they were not going to crowd-source this policy. Why are all of you crowd-sourcing?
Probably because we know of no other avenue for providing feedback on this decision?

I, for one, am puzzled about why triple-leveraged funds are OK but crypto is not.

Jack Bogle felt crypto was dangerous, but he also felt leverage was dangerous, too.
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by SmileyFace »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:14 pm I thought the moderators said that they were not going to crowd-source this policy. Why are all of you crowd-sourcing?
And its shocking that after a few hours this tread isn't locked yet. (In before the lock :) ).
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by jackbeagle »

Seeing the thread title in the list of topics made me think we were going to block anything that said STONKS
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Re: Is it time to block meme stock posts?

Post by LadyGeek »

The intent of this forum is education. If someone wants to hold a meme stock, then we should educate them on why that is discouraged here.

On points noted earlier-
  • We should have a new sub-forum - No. The moderators have enough of a workload with the existing forums. Also, members mix content all the time. You won't be able to determine which sub-forum the discussion fits in.
  • Crowd-sourcing the forum policy - No. Policy is decided by the site owners.
If anyone has further questions, please PM me.

(Thread locked.)
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