New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

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nisiprius
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by nisiprius »

It was necessary. The forum isn't a values-free zone, it is "Investing Advice Inspired by John C. Bogle," who wrote a whole book with the title Clash of the Cultures: Investment vs. Speculation.

We're in a flareup of certifiable speculative fever, and when that happens the forum needs to be out of step with the prevailing mood.

The forum doesn't allow itself to be used to promote e.g. advisory firms, or behavior intended to drive traffic to profit-making websites. It would be best to maintain the forum's focus through shared community familiarity with Bogle's ideas. Broad discussions and devils-advocate positions are helpful.

But the forum shouldn't allow itself to be used to promote cryptocurrency, and lately I haven't been able to escape the feeling that there have been posters whose purpose for being in the forum is to do just that. (Most insidious to my mind are the question-begging posts that assume that everyone has already agreed that cryptocurrency is a legitimate investment that Bogleheads already have or ought have in their portfolio, and the only thing to discuss is what kind and how much).

It would be nice if we could do without moderation--if community values simply produced civility without moderator action. But we know that approach doesn't work. The Bogleheads' forum grew out of the failure of an unmoderated, or insufficiently moderated Morningstar Vanguard forum. The moderation didn't come out of nowhere through control-freakery.

As to where to draw the line, we have to trust the moderators.
Last edited by nisiprius on Wed May 19, 2021 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by burritoLover »

A better option would be to create a single crypto master thread. The moderator merges any new crypto threads into that thread no matter what. No noob is going to read 1000 pages on a subject and the first post of that thread can be listing all the bad things about crypto. Anyone who wants to discuss crypto can go to that thread while the rest of the threads in the forum remain crypto-free.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Ramjet wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:25 am
SethJane42 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:21 am Such discussion has helped me stay away from crypto, as I've learned a great deal about it from people here. Free flow of ideas and opinion about investments is always better.
Exactly! It works both ways. Discussion does not mean people will flock to do it, quite the opposite sometimes actually
But, as we’ve seen in other arenas, it can “normalize” the concept to have reputable sites discuss something. If you want to discuss crypto, there are no shortages of places to do so.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Strayshot »

I appreciate the change in policy and the alignment with Jack’s desire to look out for the individual investor in a sea of charlatans.

As a point of clarification, I am concerned about the systemic risks crypto has introduced into the financial world. Is this type of conversation prohibited because it involves crypto? Much like systemic impacts prior meltdowns and the most recent Archegos liquidation, when the pump ends and the dump begins there will be effects investors need to consider.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by ironman »

I applaud this decision, forum drift into these areas is a distraction from the fundamental tenets of Bogle. :thumbsup
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Ramjet »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:33 am
Ramjet wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:25 am
SethJane42 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:21 am Such discussion has helped me stay away from crypto, as I've learned a great deal about it from people here. Free flow of ideas and opinion about investments is always better.
Exactly! It works both ways. Discussion does not mean people will flock to do it, quite the opposite sometimes actually
But, as we’ve seen in other arenas, it can “normalize” the concept to have reputable sites discuss something. If you want to discuss crypto, there are no shortages of places to do so.
If a post is nonsense or something is not worth discussing nobody has to reply to it

I guess I just trust people to think for themselves

Full disclosure: I own no crypto and never have
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Cpadave »

Thanks for putting the restriction in. I was hoping for full ban. But at this point I take any positive change on this forum.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by RubyTuesday »

burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:32 am A better option would be to create a single crypto master thread. The moderator merges any new crypto threads into that thread no matter what. No noob is going to read 1000 pages on a subject and the first post of that thread can be listing all the bad things about crypto. Anyone who wants to discuss crypto can go to that thread while the rest of the threads in the forum remain crypto-free.
This thread just became the thread you suggest.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by fortunefavored »

Thanks mods.. the proliferation of crypto threads, and the fatigue of people having to rebut them (and then be berated/insulted after!) was definitely out of control.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by LadyGeek »

burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:32 am A better option would be to create a single crypto master thread. The moderator merges any new crypto threads into that thread no matter what. No noob is going to read 1000 pages on a subject and the first post of that thread can be listing all the bad things about crypto. Anyone who wants to discuss crypto can go to that thread while the rest of the threads in the forum remain crypto-free.
That was mentioned earlier. A single crypto thread won't work. The topic is too broad to dump everything into a single thread. The thread would shortly become unusable because you can't figure out what's going on.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by LadyGeek »

qwertyjazz wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:22 am Any possibility of a wiki page as to the logic? I have learned a lot by reading people’s response to crypto.
viewtopic.php?p=6002077#p6002077
Nisiprius’ recent response solidified a lot about not only how I can think about crypto but also about the next alt investment which will come up at some point in the future.
I'm not sure what you mean, but we don't create wiki pages to explain forum policy.

We already have a wiki page: Bitcoin and note the big orange "Warning" box at the top of the page. In case anyone checks, the forum discussions under "External links" have been locked.

How does this wiki page get updated? The wiki editors have a private forum to discuss the wiki. I'll look into this.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by ljford7 »

Thank you! It is a much appreciated change.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by EnjoyIt »

Great decision. I fully agree that over the last several months, people have come to this forum for what appears is the sole purpose of promoting cryptocurrency. They are incentivized to get as many people to buy into their logic because it makes them rich. It has been harder and harder to have meaningful discussion as you get bombarded by newcomers and talk of some utopian crypto world. Over the last few months you can clearly see how these coins are leveraging themselves to purchase more coins which in turns boosts the appearance of demand and increased price. This looks very similar to the prequel of the financial meltdown in 2009.

I too have been very disappointed seeing companies I own stocks in via index funds getting involved with these coins. I am concerned that institutional investors can be pouring clients dollars into this space. I have concern that if our financial system gets too involved, a collapse of this bubble (which may be happening as I type) could and would affect markets outside of the crypto world.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Chip »

AlohaJoe wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:34 am I'm almost always I'm favour of stronger moderation on the internet forums I frequent. For every 1 forum "ruined" by excess moderation, I've seen 500 ruined by too little moderation.
Absolutely. Those who protest this policy have probably never been on a forum where all of the thoughtful posters left because the signal to noise ratio was heading to zero.

Alex, thanks to you and the advisory board for taking this step.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by ClevrChico »

Excellent decision. Tiktok can have all the crypto hype.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by burritoLover »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:48 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:32 am A better option would be to create a single crypto master thread. The moderator merges any new crypto threads into that thread no matter what. No noob is going to read 1000 pages on a subject and the first post of that thread can be listing all the bad things about crypto. Anyone who wants to discuss crypto can go to that thread while the rest of the threads in the forum remain crypto-free.
That was mentioned earlier. A single crypto thread won't work. The topic is too broad to dump everything into a single thread. The thread would shortly become unusable because you can't figure out what's going on.
There's a car news forum that I frequent that was getting overrun with stories and discussions about Tesla - cause Elon and Tesla are always in the news and people always want to argue about Tesla. So, they created a thread called the "Tesla Catch-all Thread" and dumped everything in there. It really just morphs into an on-going discussion. It is a middle ground between banning all discussion about topic and letting things run wild.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by firebirdparts »

Well, I applaud this decision, but I realize it's not about me nor my opinion. Thanks mods for all your hard work.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by HyperCat »

Ramjet wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:23 am Forbidding discussion on topics people are interested in learning about or understanding is rarely the right answer

It is an extreme thing to do
The situation becomes much murkier when there are two distinct groups of people: 1) Those who own an asset with no inherent value and who have a clear motive to generate interest/demand, and 2) those who are uninformed on the subject and are open/vulnerable to "education" from those in group 1. In this case, the mods made an executive decision to prevent that exploit, and I think it's the right move.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by burritoLover »

I don't own crypto but it is legitimately something you can invest in - it isn't a Bernie Madoff pyramid scheme. It is highly volatile and you could lose all your money but do you also want to ban discussion about trading individual stocks - something that Bogle would discourage people against and which you can also lose all your money? And this idea that your crypto holdings can be hacked - the same thing can happen to any investment at Vanguard or any other brokerage.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by diy60 »

Bad move. Censorship is not the answer to promoting knowledge.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Gadget »

diy60 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:07 am Bad move. Censorship is not the answer to promoting knowledge.
+1.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Nowizard »

When in someone else's house, their rules apply, so ultimately it makes no difference what we visitors in another's house think about the rules. However, with as wonderful and considerate hosts as these, as data evolves, so will decisions regarding allowable discussions.

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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by carolinaman »

+1. I have been surprised at the number of cryptocurrency posts and the support of them on the Forum. I totally agree these types of investment should not be discussed on our Forum. These discussions could lead some Forum members astray.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by climber2020 »

burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:06 am I don't own crypto but it is legitimately something you can invest in - it isn't a Bernie Madoff pyramid scheme. It is highly volatile and you could lose all your money but do you also want to ban discussion about trading individual stocks - something that Bogle would discourage people against and which you can also lose all your money? And this idea that your crypto holdings can be hacked - the same thing can happen to any investment at Vanguard or any other brokerage.
You can discuss the topic freely on Reddit.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by vanbogle59 »

"physical assets that have no underlying value"

Are we sure this is the correct line in the sand? Could it not be used to eliminate all service industries?
The contention of crypto promoters (at least in part) is that crypto provides a service.

I bought 1 BTC years ago, when Coinbase opened up. Just to see what it was all about. $675. Then it turned into $63K. (not so much anymore :( )
NOT part of my investment strategy!

But, clearly has an impact on my portfolio. How am I supposed to think about it?

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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by hornet96 »

Ramjet wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:37 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:33 am
Ramjet wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:25 am
SethJane42 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:21 am Such discussion has helped me stay away from crypto, as I've learned a great deal about it from people here. Free flow of ideas and opinion about investments is always better.
Exactly! It works both ways. Discussion does not mean people will flock to do it, quite the opposite sometimes actually
But, as we’ve seen in other arenas, it can “normalize” the concept to have reputable sites discuss something. If you want to discuss crypto, there are no shortages of places to do so.
If a post is nonsense or something is not worth discussing nobody has to reply to it

I guess I just trust people to think for themselves

Full disclosure: I own no crypto and never have
It’s not just about the words in a post and what regular participants think about those words. It’s about the fact that the mere existence of a post could give newcomers the impression that the subject matter is endorsed by the community as a legitimate investing strategy, when such implied endorsement is not the intention of this site.

I have a feeling it’s also about heading off any potential securities law investigations associated with market manipulation, a la GME and similar nonsense occurring on other websites.

I applaud this move.
Last edited by hornet96 on Wed May 19, 2021 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by WillRetire »

Alex Frakt wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 1:46 am ...
What's our problem with cryptocurrency?

It is my and the Advisory Board's feeling that the cryptocurrency market as currently constituted is extraordinarily risky and should not play a significant role in a prudent investor's portfolio.
...
Thank you!

There are plenty of other places people can go to, to discuss trading in unregulated, criminal-dominated "markets".
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by canadianbacon »

Thank you to the moderators/admins who made this decision.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by JoMoney »

burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:06 am I don't own crypto but it is legitimately something you can invest in - it isn't a Bernie Madoff pyramid scheme. It is highly volatile and you could lose all your money but do you also want to ban discussion about trading individual stocks - something that Bogle would discourage people against and which you can also lose all your money? And this idea that your crypto holdings can be hacked - the same thing can happen to any investment at Vanguard or any other brokerage.
Bernie Maddoff was more of a "Ponzi scheme", there was fraud and lies about where the investment value is. Crypto is definitely a pyramid scheme or "network marketing", where the return to current "investors" comes from recruiting new money into the system... which isn't necessarily nefarious if there is a product being sold that people actually like and use regardless of hoping to sell it for more money. Many people are quite happy with Mary Kay cosmetics products even if there are lots of disappointed people who thought they were going to turn it into a money-making job selling it (most who try aren't able to reach the levels of the few successful with it). The problem with crypto is I haven't found anybody who want's to own crypto for the sake of the crypto itself. If you're not perfectly happy owning the "product" even if you're not able to sell it to anyone else, then the "product" isn't the point of it, it's just a scheme to recruit a "greater fool" hoping to make money.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by FireSekr »

Alex Frakt wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:42 am
FireSekr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:20 am Using that criteria would also ban discussion of currencies. They have no inherent value other than the goods that can be purchased with them (same as crypto) and currencies such as the USD and others have negative long term returns after factoring inflation.

I am glad that the forum is moderating all this speculative conversation about crypto, but the criteria proposed isn’t well thought out.
Of course currencies have inherent value. They have the full taxing authority of the issuing government behind them and, in the US at least, everyone is required to accept them as payment for any incurred debts.
And yet that was the case in the Weimar Republic, Venezuela, Vietnam. In the Weimar Republic, hyperinflation meant that the value of the currency was eventually worth less than the paper it was printed on. No amount of taxing would convince anyone living through that to accept the national currency as a form of payment.

I am happy with the policy banning crypto. I just want to be sure that we can still discuss currencies, as I think those convos are very helpful to understanding risks in international investment allocations among other things
Last edited by FireSekr on Wed May 19, 2021 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by sfnerd »

This is a great new policy. As always, thanks to the moderators for thinking this through and working to keep this board relevant and high quality.

This site is really a gem to learn about low cost index investing, how to construct a portfolio, deal with taxes, 401ks/IRAs/529s/Roths/SEPs, etc. I always tell people that the core of what they need to know about successful investing is on the Bogleheads Wiki and can be digested in a couple hours, and much faster if you're a quick study. However, if you find yourself in a special situation, or unsure about anything, you can jump over to the forum and have people sort you out in no time.

While there are a ton of topics that interest me outside of this scope, usually when I see them here I think it's "noise". Often I can tune this out ("should I buy a Tesla", "what bourbon do you like", etc.; all interesting to me but not particularly relevant here), However, crypto was getting out of control, and it was starting to derail other interesting conversations.

As others have said, there are plenty of outlets on the internet to discuss crypto, blockchain, day trading, and other topics.

Whatever your investments may be, good luck to all of you, and may you be prosperous and happy :sharebeer
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by txhill »

Even as a frequent poster on the subject I have to agree that there were far too many threads about crypto. And it is a very volatile investment, and most of crypto (including bitcoin) is highly speculative, so I can see why the forum would not want to give the impression of promoting it.

However, I don't agree with the justification that all of crypto is nothing more than tulips, as there are existing productive uses of crypto that generate revenue (decentralized finance and NFTs). It's a myopic overgeneralization. Under this view, what value does a bank have? All it does is shuffle money around and take a little off the top. That's exactly the type of industry that decentralized finance is starting to disrupt.

I don't think a total ban is warranted, but it is better to err on the side of more rather than less moderation. I just assume this is a policy that will need to be revisited over the years if the crypto industry develops further as some of us expect it to.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by jibantik »

I am no fan of crypto and don't hold any, however, I am not a big fan of banning wrongthink. I don't see the big deal about having discussions about it.

Kind of bizarre you can discuss what wrist-watch to buy ad-nauseum on this site, but not crypto.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by YRT70 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:48 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:32 am A better option would be to create a single crypto master thread. The moderator merges any new crypto threads into that thread no matter what. No noob is going to read 1000 pages on a subject and the first post of that thread can be listing all the bad things about crypto. Anyone who wants to discuss crypto can go to that thread while the rest of the threads in the forum remain crypto-free.
That was mentioned earlier. A single crypto thread won't work. The topic is too broad to dump everything into a single thread. The thread would shortly become unusable because you can't figure out what's going on.
I expect a single thread would work just fine. Why not try it?

I actually enjoyed the discussions while I do believe crypto is highly speculative.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by sfnerd »

vanbogle59 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 am "physical assets that have no underlying value"

Are we sure this is the correct line in the sand? Could it not be used to eliminate all service industries?
The contention of crypto promoters (at least in part) is that crypto provides a service.

I bought 1 BTC years ago, when Coinbase opened up. Just to see what it was all about. $675. Then it turned into $63K. (not so much anymore :( )
NOT part of my investment strategy!

But, clearly has an impact on my portfolio. How am I supposed to think about it?

Full disclosure: I think moderators are a gift from God. Thank you.
I was once given a few bitcoin in the early days when it was like a couple dollars (but sold them around the 2017 peak!). I have also been given bottles of rare wine/liquor, I've at times owned land, equity of (both worthless and valuable) friend's startups, and other items. Personally I have never included these things in my portfolio because I don't intend to manage them as such and valuing them is tricky or volatile. However, even under the new rule, I could discuss crypto or these other things as a portion of my assets, as long as I'm not discussing the merits of crypto or centering the discussion on crypto.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by LadyGeek »

YRT70 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:33 am I expect a single thread would work just fine. Why not try it?

I actually enjoyed the discussions while I do believe crypto is highly speculative.
It's been tried before and didn't work. It's not going to be tried again.

================================
From a suggestion in: Subject: Forum software upgrade bug reports and change requests
runninginvestor wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:10 am Request Question, maybe?

Sorry if this doesn't fall into a specific request, but maybe more of a question that could lead to a request. I'm not sure if phpBB forum software allows this, but are moderators able to "Sticky" a note or post at the begging of cthreads?

I ask, because of the recent crypto ban policy. If new users come to the forum and find those threads, they might end up reading through pages and pages of varying advice that as a whole has been banned from the forum. If the topic ended up being panned, it might help those users to see a first sticky post in the thread noting that ban of the topic and maybe a link to the policy.

This could maybe extend to other posts that get locked also if it can be worked out, although I know that would probably add more work to the moderators to make it more expensive. But I think for banned topics it might not be a bad idea?
I've inserted the lock message in threads which span more than one page. This will allow readers to see up-front that the topic is not permitted (and hopefully why if they follow the link). The lock message is at the end of all the locked threads.

If we missed any threads, please report them and explain what's wrong. Thanks.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by tc101 »

I generally favor less censorship. It is easy for me to skip over any post that I want to skip. I would rather be my own censor. Before political discussions were banned, I found them boring and it was almost zero effort to skip them. No one reads every post on bogleheads. We are all selective.

I don't own any crypto. The way I learned they were a bad idea was by reading posts here. If those discussions had been banned it would have been harder for me to learn why I shouldn't buy crypto.

On the other hand, I just read this post, which makes a good case for some censorship
Those who protest this policy have probably never been on a forum where all of the thoughtful posters left because the signal to noise ratio was heading to zero.
I have not been on a forum where that happened, but I see the possibility. So I have mixed feelings about the new policy.
Last edited by tc101 on Wed May 19, 2021 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sfnerd
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by sfnerd »

jibantik wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:32 am I am no fan of crypto and don't hold any, however, I am not a big fan of banning wrongthink. I don't see the big deal about having discussions about it.

Kind of bizarre you can discuss what wrist-watch to buy ad-nauseum on this site, but not crypto.
While I also find the non-core discussions uninteresting and inappropriate (this is what I have friends and reddit for) it seems the mods (rightfully, I think) felt that the crypto discussion was leading people in a dangerous direction of believing that it was a reasonable part of a Boglehead style portfolio. I don't think that there is that danger with watches (nobody is going to read those threads and put 5% of their portfolio in Panerai watches expecting it to double).
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by dodecahedron »

canadianbacon wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:21 am Thank you to the moderators/admins who made this decision.
Very much agree with the above!

And, more generally, thanks to the mods/admins/leadership and veteran contributors who have created and maintained this extraordinary and very precious community discussion space for many years and through many challenges.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by watchnerd »

sfnerd wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:40 am put 5% of their portfolio in Panerai watches expecting it to double).
Well, certainly not Panerai. ;)

But my vintage collectibles have done well.

But I digress.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

Alex Frakt wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 1:46 am
Greater Fool Investing Strategies

Eventually, one runs out of greater fools. - Burton Malkiel

Discussions of investment strategies based on securities or physical assets that have no underlying value or negative expected long term returns are prohibited. Examples include: cryptocurrencies; lottery tickets; tulip bulbs; Ponzi, pyramid, and multi-level marketing schemes; affinity frauds; and market manipulation schemes.
I think it is really important to have a detailed wiki article or two that explains why crypto is a "greater fool" strategy, and point people to it.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Texanbybirth »

I'd like to start by commending the men and women who run this site. I'm sure y'all took your time and were very deliberate in this decision. I can see, for instance, that not all wild investing schemes are prohibited, e.g. HFEA.

Are topics about blockchain technologies, especially as they relate to the functioning of financial markets (a topic that is very hot in my area of employment, investment management), still okay? There were some cool insights from the underlying blockchains in those crypto threads, and I'm fairly certain that blockchain technology will have an impact on the equities markets in the coming decade. (This IS NOT a speculation about cryptocurrencies, or any kind of profit prediction. I work in the space and simply enjoy reading people's opinions.) FWIW, I could see these topics in the Theory forum.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by sfnerd »

watchnerd wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:43 am
sfnerd wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:40 am put 5% of their portfolio in Panerai watches expecting it to double).
Well, certainly not Panerai. ;)

But my vintage collectibles have done well.

But I digress.
:D

Sadly while I like watches, I've never gotten deep into them. I do think it's a cool think to collect! Maybe a hobby for the future...
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by vanbogle59 »

"assets that have no underlying value "

That, detective, is the right question.

It is entirely possible that BTC has none. Is ETH the same?
If is entirely possible that the Venezuelan Bolivar has none. Is the same true of the Thai Bhat?

Is it really for the moderators to decide?

Full disclosure: I think moderators are a gift from God. Thank you.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Nate79 »

diy60 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:07 am Bad move. Censorship is not the answer to promoting knowledge.
Here you go. Here is the wiki page to promote knowledge on Bitcoin: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bitcoin

We don't need hundreds of threads rehashing the knowledge.
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by vanbogle59 »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:52 am I think it is really important to have a detailed wiki article or two that explains why crypto is a "greater fool" strategy, and point people to it.
Really? All of crypto. You are that sure?
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by Nate79 »

Texanbybirth wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:55 am I'd like to start by commending the men and women who run this site. I'm sure y'all took your time and were very deliberate in this decision. I can see, for instance, that not all wild investing schemes are prohibited, e.g. HFEA.

Are topics about blockchain technologies, especially as they relate to the functioning of financial markets (a topic that is very hot in my area of employment, investment management), still okay? There were some cool insights from the underlying blockchains in those crypto threads, and I'm fairly certain that blockchain technology will have an impact on the equities markets in the coming decade. (This IS NOT a speculation about cryptocurrencies, or any kind of profit prediction. I work in the space and simply enjoy reading people's opinions.) FWIW, I could see these topics in the Theory forum.
How would these discussions be actionable for personal investments?
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Re: New Forum Policy Prohibiting Discussions of Cryptocurrency, Market Manipulation Schemes, etc as Investing Strategies

Post by ThankYouJack »

I understand the decision and appreciate all of the work that goes into running, funding, maintaining and moderating this forum.

But I personally would rather have the discussions stay open (at least one master thread) because I find the cryptocurrency discussions on here educational and grounding. Since people will no longer be able to learn and discuss cryptocurrency on here, they may be going to Reddit and Twitter which in my opinion is far worse.
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