FIRE sub forum

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nigel_ht
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FIRE sub forum

Post by nigel_ht »

Is there enough interest/traffic to have a FIRE sub-forum?

I made a quick search to see if this has come up before but alas my search skills failed.

I looked in the FAQ and there are usergroups but only see one.
jebmke
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by jebmke »

Have you looked at this forum?

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/
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nigel_ht
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by nigel_ht »

jebmke wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:12 am Have you looked at this forum?

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/
I prefer to discuss here with more of a boglehead approach to FIRE.

Also, the moderation over there is not as good as the moderation here. It’s kinda heavy handed.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by jebmke »

There are quite a few BH's over there although they don't always use the same user name. As best I can tell from prior requests, there will be no additional forums added here. They have been universally rejected for years.

Actually, I never even look at the sub forum - I go by the subject. If not clear or not relevant to me I ignore.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Elysium »

Bogleheads believe in delayed retirement, mostly, the idea is to keep working as long as you can and delay taking distributions, so that you do not run out of money, besides of course many BH simply enjoy their work, many have good careers and do not consider FIRE as something that appeals to them. I plan to retire/semi at 60, and to me that is early retirement in the BH context. Remember, Bogle himself worked even after his retirement from Vg, very much until his passing, so we take cue from our namesake.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by roth evangelist »

There's enough Bogleheads pursuing FIRE and enough Bogleheads that are perplexed or don't care about FIRE to justify a separate subforum. I think it's a good idea.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Longdog »

I’m not opposed to it, but I do wonder what topics would be relevant in that sub-forum that wouldn’t reasonably fall into one of the existing sub-forums? Seems likely to be a lot of overlap and possibly ambiguity with regard to where a particular subject should appear.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by sailaway »

Elysium wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 am Bogleheads believe in delayed retirement, e, the idea is to keep working as long as you can and delay taking distributions, so that you do not run out of money, besides of course many BH simply enjoy their work, many have good careers and do not consider FIRE as something that appeals to them. I plan to retire/semi at 60, and to me that is early retirement in the BH context. Remember, Bogle himself worked even after his retirement from Vg, very much until his passing, so we take cue from our namesake.
It does not appear that this attitude is as universal as you seem to think. For one thing, many bogleheads are rushing to FI with the understanding that retirement dates are harder to control in some fields than others.

For another, FIRE questions come up regularly, including 40s and 30s retirements in just the last month.

I do think you are more likely to hear "But what will you do? How will you prove your worth to society?!" here than on a dedicated FIRE forum.

OP, there are already a number of active FIRE forums available. One of the nice things about posting FIRE issues here within the existing formats is that you get a wider variety of perspectives. The naysayers might not be what you are looking for, but they are more likely to ask the difficult questions to get you to dig bit deeper and consider more angles than you might otherwise.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by livesoft »

Lots of folks on this forum are financially independent and lots of folks are not working past age 50, 55, 60, or whatever. I think FIRE topics are discussed all the time, too. I don't really make a distinction between retiring before one can get SS, pension, or other such benefits or after. So i don't think there is a need for such a subforum myself. Full disclosure: I haven't worked full time since age 50 and I am not receiving SS nor pension benefits.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by nigel_ht »

Longdog wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am I’m not opposed to it, but I do wonder what topics would be relevant in that sub-forum that wouldn’t reasonably fall into one of the existing sub-forums? Seems likely to be a lot of overlap and possibly ambiguity with regard to where a particular subject should appear.
I think there is a different focus and some of the assumptions regarding retirement don’t apply since they won’t be applicable for 20-30 years (ie social security)

Is it necessary? No, probably not. But FIRE has been around long enough to say it’s not a passing fad and it may be helpful to have a subforum to help nurture the community here where I think the opinions are more measured than on some of the mainstream FIRE forums that tend toward the more optimistic.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by HomeStretch »

It might be difficult to come up with a clear set of criteria to determine which posts belong in the Personal Investments forum vs. a hypothetical FIRE forum. There are many portfolio review requests in the Personal Investments forum from posters who also happen to want to retire earlier than age 65 (if that’s the demarcation age between “early retirement” and “normal retirement”). Which forum would these requests belong in?
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

forum.MrMoneyMustache.com
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by jebmke »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:18 pm It might be difficult to come up with a clear set of criteria to determine which posts belong in the Personal Investments forum vs. a hypothetical FIRE forum. There are many portfolio review requests in the Personal Investments forum from posters who also happen to want to retire earlier than age 65 (if that’s the demarcation age between “early retirement” and “normal retirement”). Which forum would these requests belong in?
yes; the mods already spend some time moving threads to the right forum. Adding additional ones, in addition to the lack of mutual exclusion, multiplies the chance that a post gets posted in the "wrong place."
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Mudpuppy »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:18 pm It might be difficult to come up with a clear set of criteria to determine which posts belong in the Personal Investments forum vs. a hypothetical FIRE forum. There are many portfolio review requests in the Personal Investments forum from posters who also happen to want to retire earlier than age 65 (if that’s the demarcation age between “early retirement” and “normal retirement”). Which forum would these requests belong in?
I had a similar thought. Perhaps those interested in a FIRE subforum can instead direct their efforts towards expanding and improving the Early Retirement wiki page: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Early_retirement

Here's the thread for suggesting improvements to Wiki pages: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18149
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by hi_there »

Longdog wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am I’m not opposed to it, but I do wonder what topics would be relevant in that sub-forum that wouldn’t reasonably fall into one of the existing sub-forums? Seems likely to be a lot of overlap and possibly ambiguity with regard to where a particular subject should appear.
Yes, I would think that most "FIRE" related discussions would be split into investing or personal consumption, since FIRE is essentially a decision process that balances these two things.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by bernina »

I'd definitely be interested but I do agree that getting a sub forum added probably won't happen.

As a test for interest, what about a FIRE thread to start (similar to this but open to posting whatever FIRE related question/resource/tips are on your mind)? I participate in a similar ongoing thread on a Disney message board of all places (it's a community that grew over time from love of Disney, to travel hacking to Disney, to credit card churning, and then a smaller group was formed that embraced all of those items while also still pursuing FIRE). Count me in for actively participating in a FIRE focused thread.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by jebmke »

Flannelbeard wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:21 pm
jebmke wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:12 am Have you looked at this forum?

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/
Worst FIRE forum on the internet by a long shot IMO; I found the average user there even more obnoxious/arrogant than Reddit users and that's saying something.
What is the second worst?
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by LadyGeek »

For the record, we won't be adding a new subforum. In addition to the reasons already mentioned, adding a new forum takes additional moderator resources.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Flannelbeard wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:20 pm
jebmke wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:55 pm
Flannelbeard wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:21 pm
jebmke wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:12 am Have you looked at this forum?

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/
Worst FIRE forum on the internet by a long shot IMO; I found the average user there even more obnoxious/arrogant than Reddit users and that's saying something.
What is the second worst?
Mr. Money Mustache forum. Politics allowed, snarky users, and biased power-hungry mods.
Agreed. That place is awful.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by anon_investor »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:06 pm
Longdog wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am I’m not opposed to it, but I do wonder what topics would be relevant in that sub-forum that wouldn’t reasonably fall into one of the existing sub-forums? Seems likely to be a lot of overlap and possibly ambiguity with regard to where a particular subject should appear.
I think there is a different focus and some of the assumptions regarding retirement don’t apply since they won’t be applicable for 20-30 years (ie social security)

Is it necessary? No, probably not. But FIRE has been around long enough to say it’s not a passing fad and it may be helpful to have a subforum to help nurture the community here where I think the opinions are more measured than on some of the mainstream FIRE forums that tend toward the more optimistic.
There are plenty of folks here that plan to FIRE or are aiming for FI (like myself). Do you have specific questions? If you create a thread with specific questions, you will get some good responses.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Scott S »

I'm a member of several forums where they divide everything down into lots of subforums. The result is that some subforums become very clique-y, others become ghost towns, and you lose the cross-pollination that happens when all of the topics are lumped together into one place. I've learned a lot on Bogleheads from topics that wouldn't have been on my radar otherwise. And I think even people who have no intention of retiring before 65 (or 67, or 70, or ever) might find some of the situations encountered by early retirees entertaining or illuminating.

It seems to me that a lot of objections to "FIRE" here are really to that term, or some figures in the movement. One would hope that everyone here would support a person saving their money and considering their future expenses, at any age. :beer
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by watchnerd »

Scott S wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:38 pm It seems to me that a lot of objections to "FIRE" here are really to that term, or some figures in the movement.
I'll cop to finding the term a little annoying.

I think I also get irked by the idea that some FIRE people ask why anyone bothers to continue working after they reach financial independence.

Most of my heroes in the business world kept working well past financial independence.

But back to the OP:

Just start a thread on whatever early retirement question you have.

You don't need a sub forum.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by H-Town »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:57 am Is there enough interest/traffic to have a FIRE sub-forum?

I made a quick search to see if this has come up before but alas my search skills failed.

I looked in the FAQ and there are usergroups but only see one.
Take the RE out and I’ll listen. 8-)
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by anon_investor »

watchnerd wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:47 pm
I'll cop to finding the term a little annoying.

I think I also get irked by the idea that some FIRE people ask why anyone bothers to continue working after they reach financial independence.

Most of my heroes in the business world kept working well past financial independence.
+1. I want to get to FI, but no plans to RE.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by David Jay »

Elysium wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 amBogleheads believe in delayed retirement...
In preparation for my Virtual Bogleheads presentation a couple of years ago, I analyzed the (admittedly self selected) retirement ages for the previous 3 years of the “Roll Call” threads. Both the mean and average retirement age was 58, with over 70% retiring before age 62.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Elysium »

David Jay wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm
Elysium wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 amBogleheads believe in delayed retirement...
In preparation for my Virtual Bogleheads presentation a couple of years ago, I analyzed the (admittedly self selected) retirement ages for the previous 3 years of the “Roll Call” threads. Both the mean and average retirement age was 58, with over 70% retiring before age 62.
I don't know about that, but I do know that if you come here and ask the question "Am I able to retire today?" with couple of million in savings, no debt, and low cost of living, what the answers would be, most would say you need to work more, save more, wait until medicare, so on.. :D some would say yes with caveats added. In order to qualify for BH FIRE I would imagine you have to have at least $10mm in savings or more, while most FIRE people would retire for much less. Just my feeling based on observation not any scientific polling.

That said I did say, I plan to retire around 60 and consider it early retirement, for me the FIRE question is really very young age, like in 40,s and early 50's.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by White Coat Investor »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:16 amAlso, the moderation over there is not as good as the moderation here. It’s kinda heavy handed.
First time I've ever heard that one. Usually what I hear is that other forums are not as moderated as Bogleheads.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by sailaway »

Elysium wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:56 am
David Jay wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm
Elysium wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 amBogleheads believe in delayed retirement...
In preparation for my Virtual Bogleheads presentation a couple of years ago, I analyzed the (admittedly self selected) retirement ages for the previous 3 years of the “Roll Call” threads. Both the mean and average retirement age was 58, with over 70% retiring before age 62.
I don't know about that, but I do know that if you come here and ask the question "Am I able to retire today?" with couple of million in savings, no debt, and low cost of living, what the answers would be, most would say you need to work more, save more, wait until medicare, so on.. :D some would say yes with caveats added. In order to qualify for BH FIRE I would imagine you have to have at least $10mm in savings or more, while most FIRE people would retire for much less. Just my feeling based on observation not any scientific polling.

That said I did say, I plan to retire around 60 and consider it early retirement, for me the FIRE question is really very young age, like in 40,s and early 50's.
And there would be just as many responses pointing out how extraordinarily conservative such assertions are...
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by AlohaJoe »

The reddit FIRE forum has evolved towards fairly strict moderation (which I agree with) because there simply isn't that much to talk about regarding FIRE. You can go over there and get a feel for how empty the conversation around FIRE actually is. I'm always curious what people actually want to talk about regarding FIRE that they feel that aren't able to bring up in the existing format.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by watchnerd »

AlohaJoe wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:14 am I'm always curious what people actually want to talk about regarding FIRE that they feel that aren't able to bring up in the existing format.
I don't know either.

Bogleheads have been talking about retirement planning, financial independence, and how to live on the cheap before FIRE was ever coined as a term.

Seems like it's just a tribal / clique thing.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by TravelGeek »

jebmke wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:24 am
Actually, I never even look at the sub forum - I go by the subject. If not clear or not relevant to me I ignore.
This. I have https://www.bogleheads.org/ bookmarked and scan the list of threads for stuff that might be interesting based on the subject line (*). The organization into sub forums is completely irrelevant to me (and I personally don’t benefit from mods moving stuff around).

I do read and participate in FIRE threads since I am in that “state”.

(*) that’s why I am a big fan of meaningful and descriptive thread subjects.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by nigel_ht »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:02 am
nigel_ht wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:16 amAlso, the moderation over there is not as good as the moderation here. It’s kinda heavy handed.
First time I've ever heard that one. Usually what I hear is that other forums are not as moderated as Bogleheads.
More in terms of “biased power-hungry mods” at some other forums...
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by David Jay »

Elysium wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:56 am
David Jay wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm
Elysium wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:27 amBogleheads believe in delayed retirement...
In preparation for my Virtual Bogleheads presentation a couple of years ago, I analyzed the (admittedly self selected) retirement ages for the previous 3 years of the “Roll Call” threads. Both the mean and average retirement age was 58, with over 70% retiring before age 62.
I don't know about that, but I do know that if you come here and ask the question "Am I able to retire today?" with couple of million in savings, no debt, and low cost of living, what the answers would be, most would say you need to work more, save more, wait until medicare, so on.. :D some would say yes with caveats added. In order to qualify for BH FIRE I would imagine you have to have at least $10mm in savings or more, while most FIRE people would retire for much less. Just my feeling based on observation not any scientific polling.

That said I did say, I plan to retire around 60 and consider it early retirement, for me the FIRE question is really very young age, like in 40,s and early 50's.
It seems (working from memory) that the youngest in those 3 Roll-call years was 42 and the oldest was 72.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Mike Scott »

The FI/RE acronym(s) may not show up much but I think pretty much everyone here is interested in the FI part and the discussions around it are pretty universal. Most people here have done or plan to do the RE part if you consider early to be anything before SS FRA. There are many posts from retired 50 somethings and some younger than that with a lot of discussion about the needs for a longer than 30 year retirement period. I'm not generally a fan of splitting forums and the moderators here are not either so... post away and see who is interested in the discussion. You may not get as much cheerleading rah rah as you do on a topical FI/RE forum and there are some really conservative types who will discourage almost any plan at any level. However, considering some criticism of your FI/RE plans may be helpful to you even when you don't want to hear it. There are many voices of experience. I'm on my own road to FI/RE based on pension eligibility and living below means. I'm not interested but my earliest "lean" FI/RE date is June 30, 2021. My earliest "regular" FI/RE date is Jan 1, 2023 and I will be a 50 something then. I don't expect to ever get to "fat" FI/RE so I will decide along the way when I am ready to retire. You may or may not consider it retirement because I plan to continue my current part-time self-employment gig for as long as I am able.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Marseille07 »

I'd be interested in the discussion but like other folks, I generally do not dive into subforums; just using the top page to find interesting topics.
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Re: FIRE sub forum

Post by Dottie57 »

watchnerd wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:47 pm
Scott S wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:38 pm It seems to me that a lot of objections to "FIRE" here are really to that term, or some figures in the movement.
I'll cop to finding the term a little annoying.

I think I also get irked by the idea that some FIRE people ask why anyone bothers to continue working after they reach financial independence.

Most of my heroes in the business world kept working well past financial independence.

But back to the OP:

Just start a thread on whatever early retirement question you have.

You don't need a sub forum.
I agre - especially with first part of thread.
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