Golden Visa Programs

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curiouskitty
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by curiouskitty »

Bogle1984 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:40 am As a European, why would you actually be interested living in Europe? Is it the lower cost of living?

I had the opportunity to visit Houston for some time precovid. Had a great time there and really liked the weather. It was somehow like southern Europe climate wise. I think there must be some nice places in the south of the US near the seaside for retirement.
Because I found tons of amazing food and culture in Europe including the wonderful access via train and cheap flights. Houston is a sprawling mess with supersized low quality food and little culture comparatively in my view

I’m not discouraging you if you like it there of course but that’s my view. Most the people I’ve known who moved to Texas did it for tax reasons instead of because they liked Texas
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Bogle1984
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Bogle1984 »

curiouskitty wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:58 pm
Bogle1984 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:40 am As a European, why would you actually be interested living in Europe? Is it the lower cost of living?

I had the opportunity to visit Houston for some time precovid. Had a great time there and really liked the weather. It was somehow like southern Europe climate wise. I think there must be some nice places in the south of the US near the seaside for retirement.
Because I found tons of amazing food and culture in Europe including the wonderful access via train and cheap flights. Houston is a sprawling mess with supersized low quality food and little culture comparatively in my view

I’m not discouraging you if you like it there of course but that’s my view. Most the people I’ve known who moved to Texas did it for tax reasons instead of because they liked Texas
Of course there is more "culture" in Europe but in my view US has his own "culture" and it's a relatively young and dynamic country. What I didn't realize before coming to the US was that it's a huge country, even to visit the next bigger city usually is only possible by plane.
Last edited by Bogle1984 on Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hyperborea
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Hyperborea »

potz wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:38 pm Hope this helps.
Thanks for all the information. I'm still undecided about the Golden Visa versus the D7 retirement visa versus perhaps other European countries. I'm in a bit of a different situation than some since I'm not really planning to retire in Europe but instead want to spend a few years (3-6) and explore and travel within Europe. I had hoped to do that as an EU citizen at one point since I have UK citizenship but Brexit put paid to that.
It’s not just that facts don’t seem to matter anymore. It’s that it doesn’t seem to matter that facts don’t matter.
Slacker
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Slacker »

potz wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:38 pm
Hyperborea wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:53 am Everything I had seen was that passive income (dividends and interest) earned outside Portugal was still tax exempt within Portugal. The only change was that pension income has gone from 0% tax to 10% tax for new non-habitual residents as of last year.
Thats true, dividends and interest are tax exempt if outside Portugal. Most of my existing dividend income from private investments, as well as real estate income outside of Portugal will be exempt.

But dig a little deeper and you will find capital gains on the sale of financial instruments (stocks, etf's included) do NOT qualify for the NHR tax break and are taxed at standard 28%. I have consulted 2 different tax attorneys in Portugal who have expertise in the NHR program and they have highlighted this to me.

The situation changes if the stocks/etf's/funds are in a retirement structure of some sort, like a 401(k) or IRA for Americans for example, it is then viewed as a retirement structure from a Portugal perspective and not taxed. My ETF holdings are not in any sort of structure or retirement designated account and are in a self managed portfolio with Interactive Brokers.

Hope this helps.
When capital gains is assessed at 28%, I had read that they automatically assume (unless you provide documentation to the contrary) that you had a 15% capital gain and that it is this 15% that is taxed at 28%. Is this correct (as far as you know)?

What do you know of Roth IRA treatment in Portugal? I am having difficulty finding a straight answer to this one. Personally, we are considering Portugal first, but if the treatment of Roth IRAs is not favorable (paying no taxes) then we will likely look more into France which does appear to have favorable treatment of Roth IRAs from what I could gather via internet searching.
potz
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by potz »

Slacker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:24 pm When capital gains is assessed at 28%, I had read that they automatically assume (unless you provide documentation to the contrary) that you had a 15% capital gain and that it is this 15% that is taxed at 28%. Is this correct (as far as you know)?
In my reading so far I have not come across this.
Slacker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:24 pm What do you know of Roth IRA treatment in Portugal? I am having difficulty finding a straight answer to this one. Personally, we are considering Portugal first, but if the treatment of Roth IRAs is not favorable (paying no taxes) then we will likely look more into France which does appear to have favorable treatment of Roth IRAs from what I could gather via internet searching.
I am not American, so do not know the specific's around Roth IRA's, but the research I have done so far has stated that this would be deemed a "pension" or "retirement" account in Portugal and NHR eligible

There was a recent free webinar from https://www.expacity.com/ that was all about NHR for people moving to Portugal. The expert guest is a Portugal tax attorney who seemed very knowledgeable. There was a lot of information specific to Americans, so you may find it useful.

Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GGXpnx ... w9585/view

- 26 minute mark he starts to specifically cover Passive Income.
- Around 33 minute mark he specifically mentions Roth IRA's as being deemed a "pension" in the eyes of Portugal and thus NHR eligible.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Tax in EU is higher than US. Portugal gives 10 year NHR which will have flat 10% tax for 10 years. You will have to stay in Portugal 183 days per year. US will tax you no matter you live.
CCD
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by CCD »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:37 am Tax in EU is higher than US. Portugal gives 10 year NHR which will have flat 10% tax for 10 years. You will have to stay in Portugal 183 days per year. US will tax you no matter you live.
It sounds better than it is in practice depending on your situation. If you are retired and can already access pension, tIRA, 401k yes 10%. If you retire early and sell appreciated investments 28% tax, unless all you income comes from dividends and interest, then you go back to 10%.
Slacker
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Slacker »

potz wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:23 pm
Slacker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:24 pm When capital gains is assessed at 28%, I had read that they automatically assume (unless you provide documentation to the contrary) that you had a 15% capital gain and that it is this 15% that is taxed at 28%. Is this correct (as far as you know)?
In my reading so far I have not come across this.
Slacker wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:24 pm What do you know of Roth IRA treatment in Portugal? I am having difficulty finding a straight answer to this one. Personally, we are considering Portugal first, but if the treatment of Roth IRAs is not favorable (paying no taxes) then we will likely look more into France which does appear to have favorable treatment of Roth IRAs from what I could gather via internet searching.
I am not American, so do not know the specific's around Roth IRA's, but the research I have done so far has stated that this would be deemed a "pension" or "retirement" account in Portugal and NHR eligible

There was a recent free webinar from https://www.expacity.com/ that was all about NHR for people moving to Portugal. The expert guest is a Portugal tax attorney who seemed very knowledgeable. There was a lot of information specific to Americans, so you may find it useful.

Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GGXpnx ... w9585/view

- 26 minute mark he starts to specifically cover Passive Income.
- Around 33 minute mark he specifically mentions Roth IRA's as being deemed a "pension" in the eyes of Portugal and thus NHR eligible.
Very helpful, especially the video. Thank you!

It appears that while a Roth will likely be treated as a pension (10% flat tax at age 59.5 or older), a Roth Conversion Ladder for younger retirees pulling out the contributions *may* be treated as regular capital gains taxed at 28%. I'll probably have to actually pay an international tax professional from Portugal to get a more exact answer but the video definitely helped for planning out tax & cost scenarios if we move to Portugal from the USA.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Early retiree at age 55 could pull out 401k as pension to live in Portugal. If the pull out is taxed in the USA at 12% then it will not be taxed in Portugal because 12%>10%.
Curious1
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Curious1 »

We moved to Portugal 13 months ago under the D7 visa. We had lived outside the US for many years, so this move was easy. There is a Facebook group, Americans & Friends PT, that has a wealth of information for anyone considering a move or who has already made the move
rupalb9
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by rupalb9 »

Male, 72.
I, too, would like to have the option of being able to live in a different country.
Taking an inventory of where I am at this stage of my life, I have come up with this list:
Positive
1. I have a nice house and enjoy good weather on the peninsula in the SF Bay Area. No humidity or bugs. I don't have and don't need air conditioning. The negatives are poor air quality pretty much every year due to fires. Likelihood of droughts and earthquakes are also a part of living here.
2. I have original Medicare which, with all its complexities and high premiums due to IRMAA, provides excellent domestic health insurance.
3. My children live close by and provide companionship, comfort and solace.
4. I am financially fine and have access to pretty much every convenience that I would wish. My choice, however, is to simplify.
5. My health is quite good and I am physically active.
Negative
I lost my wife to cancer a little over a year ago. I have no interest in meeting someone to get involved romantically with. However, my social circle is sparse and I am lonely. I wish to have a few male friends to sit and chat with over coffee.
---
[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
When I think of moving to a different geography, I picture myself missing my family, the work required to set up another household, etc. The only solution seems to be to travel to different destinations for short periods and return home to the USA. If some other locale ends up lighting a spark in me, then I'd think about other choices.

Comments, please?
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LadyGeek
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic comment discussing topics that are outside the guidelines of this forum (politics, race, violence). Please focus on the financial aspects.
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Hyperborea
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Hyperborea »

rupalb9 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:36 am Male, 72.
I lost my wife to cancer a little over a year ago. I have no interest in meeting someone to get involved romantically with. However, my social circle is sparse and I am lonely. I wish to have a few male friends to sit and chat with over coffee.
First, sorry to hear about your wife. I think it's hard for most males to make a lot friends spontaneously - I think we rely on our spouses for many years to run the "social" side of a lot our life.

I see that you are in the Bay Area. That can be a bit rough for socializing since a lot of people are go-go-go on their jobs. Even still, there are ways to make acquaintances but it requires positive action on your part. There are social activities of all sorts in the Bay Area - pick something you enjoy and get involved. When I lived in the Bay Area the only sources of friends were those I knew from before, from work (only a small number of real friends - mostly temporary acquaintances), my wife's social circle and their husbands, and social activities/hobbies where I met others.

rupalb9 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:36 am When I think of moving to a different geography, I picture myself missing my family, the work required to set up another household, etc. The only solution seems to be to travel to different destinations for short periods and return home to the USA. If some other locale ends up lighting a spark in me, then I'd think about other choices.
If you are having trouble finding people to hang out with in an area you've lived in for perhaps a long time then moving to a country where you aren't fluent in the language doesn't seem to be a good choice. Perhaps, as you suggest going somewhere and spending a longer but still limited time (maybe 3 months) would be a good idea. Rent a furnished place and explore a region in a country that you want to go to. Maybe study the language or something specific to that region (art, food, etc.). That way you could have fellow students to explore with and a daily purpose.
It’s not just that facts don’t seem to matter anymore. It’s that it doesn’t seem to matter that facts don’t matter.
SharpNine
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by SharpNine »

A type of 'golden visa' program is Spain and now Portugal's laws around granting citizenship to descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled by the Alhambra Decree in 1492.

Many parts of Latin America (and the rest of the world) saw the arrival of members of this community and there's a chance one can be an unknowing descendant (often from one or more provable ancestors).

The process has been wildly popular in Colombia as it doesn't require investments. It requires ancestor review and typically a lawyer office. Usually the process can cost from USD$3000 to USD$5000. From what I understand the time window in Spain has expired but it is still possible to do the process through Portugal.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

https://washingtondc.embaixadaportugal. ... ardic-jews
jackson1911
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by jackson1911 »

Please see my post below. There are many pitfalls of investing in portugal golden visa

viewtopic.php?t=385741
NotAnotherGent
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by NotAnotherGent »

EverydayWallSt wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:48 am I understand the concern - felt a bit like a leap of faith until until we received the keys to our house. We found a lawyer who had been recommended multiple times on various expat forums dating back many years. I figured if they were still in business, they probably weren’t a scam. Also found there’s UK consular or embassy website, I forget, that tells you how to look up if your lawyer in Portugal is licensed and in good standing. We met with our lawyer in person and got the lay of the land before looking at real estate with any agents. Our consultation was free. We paid our lawyer nothing for months until we got near closing. She also handled our Golden Visa paperwork. At times, I felt she was unresponsive. It turns out to be normal here to not provide updates until you have conclusive answers. So no response meant she was waiting for something. Felt a bit slow for us but all worked out in the end. I trusted her to review the home purchase documents etc. and make sure my house was legal and above board. Lawyers are also your escrow for the house purchase (she has a separate client management bank account we transferred to). We made a deposit, a leap of faith, and felt good when the seller received the money. Then continued. So yes, a bit of a leap of faith but it all worked out well in the end.

Couple other points. My lawyer spoke great English. contracts were provided in English and Portuguese, though Portuguese prevailed if there were discrepancies (didn’t have any issues). Flat rate was more than reasonable by US standards - I think it was around 4-5k EUR if I recall to represent us on the house purchase, related contracts, helping us get utilities in our names, getting NIFs (equivalent of SSNs), applying for Golden Visa, going with us to appointment at immigration with tons of documents and paperwork to ensure it went smoothly, and answering our countless questions.
statsdoc wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:53 pm
EverydayWallSt wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:16 pm I did the Golden Visa program in Portugal.
It seems like a great program but we just feel hesitant to risk losing the principle to some sort of scam (maybe its an unrealistic fear).

EverydayWallSt (or others) how did you go about finding someone trustworthy to help? Great conversation ...wish I had a relative to get citizenship by descent! (also go ez 1st time post! :happy)
Hey everydaywallstreet,

Tried pming you but my account is not old enough to do so. I was wondering you could share the contact of your lawyer?

Thank you and best regards!
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