Golden Visa Programs

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Topic Author
Tjb
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Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tjb »

Anyone have any experience with Golden Visa Programs, specifically in Portugal or Spain ? These are the programs offered by countries to encourage investment and in turn offer visas and permanent residency options. At the moment Portugal's program offers a visa for investment from 280,000 Euro to 500,000 Euro for either real estate, or investment into what is described as a diversified fund portfolio. there are a wide variety of investments ranging from what appear to be REIT type investments, Corporate and Government Bonds, Venture Capital and Broad Market funds and ETF's. I would look deeper before considering the investment path. There are other path's such as starting a company, or creating at least 10 jobs through investment as well, but the Real Estate appears to be the most used path and what I am most interested in at the moment.

Occasionally the level of investment can rise or drop depending on the economic conditions. Any personal experiences would be helpful.

Thanks
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HalfMillionaire
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by HalfMillionaire »

It seems a cheaper path is to use a similar program in one of the EU countries like Lithuania. You get EU residency that allows you to live and work in any EU countries.

Given that EB5 visas have gotten quite expensive with a large backlog, I would imagine these programs will see more demand in coming years.
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Ramjet
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Ramjet »

HalfMillionaire wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:52 am It seems a cheaper path is to use a similar program in one of the EU countries like Lithuania. You get EU residency that allows you to live and work in any EU countries
My wife's grandfather (deceased) was born in Poland. She is currently in the process of obtaining citizenship via relation. She will be able to live and work in any EU country afterwards. She will also be able to apply for me as well once she has completed the process. I wouldn't be a citizen but would be able to live and/or work in the EU also
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Tjb
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tjb »

Thanks for the responses. I'm sure there could be better deals, but I have a son in Europe now and although he is in the Netherlands at the moment, he may be settling down in Portugal. Much better climate for sure.
TropikThunder
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by TropikThunder »

Tjb wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:18 pm Thanks for the responses. I'm sure there could be better deals, but I have a son in Europe now and although he is in the Netherlands at the moment, he may be settling down in Portugal. Much better climate for sure.
The Portuguese parliament passed a restriction on their Golden Visa in spring 2020 to make real estate purchases in Lisbon and Porto (two biggest cities) ineligible, apparently concerned that it was driving up prices for locals (similar to how say Vancouver prohibited foreign non-residence owners). You can still do it, but they’re seeking to guide people to lower density regions outside the big cities (although much lower cost, ~€270k.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/p ... y-regions/
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by ivgrivchuck »

Tjb wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:06 am there are a wide variety of investments ranging from what appear to be REIT type investments, Corporate and Government Bonds, Venture Capital and Broad Market funds and ETF's.
You probably know this already, but consider carefully any taxation impacts. Foreign investments can be complicated from the U.S. tax perspective.
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rich126
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by rich126 »

I've always been curious about these as well but unfortunately have no firsthand experience. Unfortunately I don't have any family who would make me eligible for citizenship in Europe since they have passed away a long time ago.

I would be concerned with buying real estate in a foreign country where I don't know the rules and am not a citizen unless I had enough money that I could afford to lose the entire amount of money. Although I've been curious about the cheap 1 Euro homes sold in places like Italy. If I spoke the language I would be very tempted to do that, even though I know it would cost me substantially more to fix it up. My GF (who at least speaks fluent Spanish) would be up for it.

Hopefully someone who has done this will respond.

I did find a few articles, the first one from last July and the other one from 2019.
https://www.imidaily.com/opinion/why-im ... -pandemic/
https://www.portugalhomes.com/news/arti ... t-worth-it
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Tjb
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tjb »

Rich126 Thanks, those are 2 good sites for information :)
EverydayWallSt
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by EverydayWallSt »

I did the Golden Visa program in Portugal. Alternatively, you can avoid an investment by getting a pensioners’ visa (D7) if you wanted, but, for us, the golden visa was worth it. We wanted the freedom to be out of country whenever we wanted (can get citizenship after 5 years by only being in country for an average of a week a year... or course, with 2020 being a covid year, we haven’t left yet, so haven’t taken advantage of this yet), and didn’t mind buying a house. Folks are right to point out the change in laws that will prevent golden visas for real estate purchases in popular areas, including Lisbon/Porto and the Algarve - I think it goes into effect this coming summer. You should check dates on that if you’re interested in those areas. I’m grandfathered in already at this point.

What else did you want to know? Happy to help.
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Raybo
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Raybo »

EverydayWallSt wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:16 pm I did the Golden Visa program in Portugal.
...
What else did you want to know? Happy to help.
Just so I understand. You bought a house/condo in Portugal but you rarely go there?
Who takes care of the property?
Is it rented?
Did you consider buying government bonds or using the investment option?
What are the limitations on the Visa you have, if any?
Did you research other countries? If so, why did you choose Portugal (if it wasn't for the low limits)?
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EverydayWallSt
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by EverydayWallSt »

No, we live in Portugal now. We just wanted the flexibility to be able to move elsewhere in the EU if we wanted in the next 5 years and still be on track to get citizenship in year 5. We have that flexibility with the Golden Visa.

Our visa allows us to live and work anywhere in the Shenzhen for the next 5 years. After 5 years, we get permanent residency - and if we can pass a basic language exam, citizenship.

Our visa requires to be in country one week our first year, two total weeks across years 2-3, and another two total weeks across years 4-5. So we can become citizens by being here 5 weeks in 5 years - that gives us flexibility to get citizenship even if we decide Portugal isn’t for us in the next couple years.

This is a much more flexible set of rules than other countries - at least the ones we were thinking of living in.

Also, Portugal has a NHR (non habitual residency) scheme that means we pay 0 Portuguese taxes on foreign sources of income for 10 years. And Portugal has no wealth tax or estate tax (other than it value of your Portuguese home exceeds 500k or so, but it’s a relatively modest tax as it’s only on the home). That made it better than Spain for us.
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Elsebet
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Elsebet »

Ramjet wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 am
HalfMillionaire wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:52 am It seems a cheaper path is to use a similar program in one of the EU countries like Lithuania. You get EU residency that allows you to live and work in any EU countries
My wife's grandfather (deceased) was born in Poland. She is currently in the process of obtaining citizenship via relation. She will be able to live and work in any EU country afterwards. She will also be able to apply for me as well once she has completed the process. I wouldn't be a citizen but would be able to live and/or work in the EU also
Would you be willing to share some details on how your wife accomplished this? My maternal great-grandparents were born in Lithuania and my paternal great-grandparents were from Hungary. I would love to pursue an EU passport if it's possible.

Did you use a website like this? https://www.apply.eu/passport/
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ShadowCat
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by ShadowCat »

Elsebet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am Would you be willing to share some details on how your wife accomplished this? My maternal great-grandparents were born in Lithuania and my paternal great-grandparents were from Hungary. I would love to pursue an EU passport if it's possible.

Did you use a website like this? https://www.apply.eu/passport/
I would honestly just contact the Hungarian or Lithuanian embassies directly. They'll either be able to answer your question, or direct you to someone who can.

Since there is no such thing as an "EU passport/citizenship" that is independent of the passport/citizenship of one of the 27 member states, and since those 27 member states all have different rules, there's no point in trying to look up something EU wide.
Ramjet
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Ramjet »

Elsebet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am
Ramjet wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 am
HalfMillionaire wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:52 am It seems a cheaper path is to use a similar program in one of the EU countries like Lithuania. You get EU residency that allows you to live and work in any EU countries
My wife's grandfather (deceased) was born in Poland. She is currently in the process of obtaining citizenship via relation. She will be able to live and work in any EU country afterwards. She will also be able to apply for me as well once she has completed the process. I wouldn't be a citizen but would be able to live and/or work in the EU also
Would you be willing to share some details on how your wife accomplished this? My maternal great-grandparents were born in Lithuania and my paternal great-grandparents were from Hungary. I would love to pursue an EU passport if it's possible.

Did you use a website like this? https://www.apply.eu/passport/
She first contacted the Polish embassy directly and they were, well, less than excited to help her. Especially after they realized she doesn't speak the language. That route seemed almost impossible. We did some research and there are a few third party's that will perform this service for you, e.g., you give them the docs and they do the rest. This option was pretty expensive but we would have done it if we had to. My wife was born in South America, so she actually found someone in her native country who spoke Spanish and Polish both who does this as a side gig. I know, strange combination of languages right? Well there were a lot of Polish Jews who fled Europe to South America to escape the Nazi's. One thing of note is you will need your relatives birth certificate, this is probably the largest obstacle for most
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Ramjet »

Elsebet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am
Ramjet wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 am
HalfMillionaire wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:52 am It seems a cheaper path is to use a similar program in one of the EU countries like Lithuania. You get EU residency that allows you to live and work in any EU countries
My wife's grandfather (deceased) was born in Poland. She is currently in the process of obtaining citizenship via relation. She will be able to live and work in any EU country afterwards. She will also be able to apply for me as well once she has completed the process. I wouldn't be a citizen but would be able to live and/or work in the EU also
Did you use a website like this? https://www.apply.eu/passport/
Check this out https://polaron.com.au/services/eu-serv ... h-descent/
statsdoc
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by statsdoc »

EverydayWallSt wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:16 pm I did the Golden Visa program in Portugal.
My wife and I have been very interested in the Portugal GV program. For us, where we get held up is we don't know who to trust. When it is a foreign country and you don't speak the language how does one evaluate the lawyer or realtor that they use to help execute the transaction.

It seems like a great program but we just feel hesitant to risk losing the principle to some sort of scam (maybe its an unrealistic fear).

EverydayWallSt (or others) how did you go about finding someone trustworthy to help? Great conversation ...wish I had a relative to get citizenship by descent! (also go ez 1st time post! :happy)
EverydayWallSt
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by EverydayWallSt »

I understand the concern - felt a bit like a leap of faith until until we received the keys to our house. We found a lawyer who had been recommended multiple times on various expat forums dating back many years. I figured if they were still in business, they probably weren’t a scam. Also found there’s UK consular or embassy website, I forget, that tells you how to look up if your lawyer in Portugal is licensed and in good standing. We met with our lawyer in person and got the lay of the land before looking at real estate with any agents. Our consultation was free. We paid our lawyer nothing for months until we got near closing. She also handled our Golden Visa paperwork. At times, I felt she was unresponsive. It turns out to be normal here to not provide updates until you have conclusive answers. So no response meant she was waiting for something. Felt a bit slow for us but all worked out in the end. I trusted her to review the home purchase documents etc. and make sure my house was legal and above board. Lawyers are also your escrow for the house purchase (she has a separate client management bank account we transferred to). We made a deposit, a leap of faith, and felt good when the seller received the money. Then continued. So yes, a bit of a leap of faith but it all worked out well in the end.

Couple other points. My lawyer spoke great English. contracts were provided in English and Portuguese, though Portuguese prevailed if there were discrepancies (didn’t have any issues). Flat rate was more than reasonable by US standards - I think it was around 4-5k EUR if I recall to represent us on the house purchase, related contracts, helping us get utilities in our names, getting NIFs (equivalent of SSNs), applying for Golden Visa, going with us to appointment at immigration with tons of documents and paperwork to ensure it went smoothly, and answering our countless questions.
statsdoc wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:53 pm
EverydayWallSt wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:16 pm I did the Golden Visa program in Portugal.
It seems like a great program but we just feel hesitant to risk losing the principle to some sort of scam (maybe its an unrealistic fear).

EverydayWallSt (or others) how did you go about finding someone trustworthy to help? Great conversation ...wish I had a relative to get citizenship by descent! (also go ez 1st time post! :happy)
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Raybo »

How would things be different for someone who didn’t want to live in Portugal, but only wanted EU residency? For this, the investment option seems more reasonable. It looks like the requirement is for $350K in an investment fund. While one might lose money on such an investment, that is true of all investments.

After 5 years or when the fund allows, the money can be returned. Again, if housing isn’t needed, this seems like a good way to go for extended time in the EU.

Am I missing something?
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Big Mig
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Big Mig »

EverydayWallSt wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:58 am Our visa allows us to live and work anywhere in the Shenzhen for the next 5 years.
Are you sure your visa allows you to “live and work” in another Schengen country? That seems very un-EU like. Generally people who aren’t permanent residents are not afforded the same movement rights as citizens of EU countries. Admittedly I’m an Irish citizen and things might be different in Schengen countries, but I’d want to confirm this before trying to live and work in, say, France or Austria based only on a Portuguese golden visa.
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

those golden visa requires you to buy refundable zero% goverment bond of 250,000Euro + non-refundable fee of 30000-60000Euo. I could double that in SP500. While require you stay significant time in their country so you are paying much higher tax + 20% VAT (similar to US sales tax). After 5 years, you got to pass their language test. the language is a typical small language ( I am not talking about Spanish, German and French). Sure you got to stay EU for more than 6 month per year and free to move in EU.
moneybags
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by moneybags »

I've been pondering the Portugal golden visa program for some time but haven't pulled the trigger. I'm both interested in living in Portugal but also want a citizenship to have the flexibility of living outside the US and in other EU countries. Having a hard time deciding to go the GV route vs the D7 route in ~5 years. If we went the GV route, i think it would be through an investment fund. We're not yet ready to live in Portugal thus buying a house/condo seems like a lot of work to maintain and/or try to rent out from abroad.

FYI there's a great community forum on this website (though most are prospective investors): https://community.nomadgate.com/c/resid ... gration/21
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Raybo
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Raybo »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:29 am those golden visa requires you to buy refundable zero% goverment bond of 250,000Euro + non-refundable fee of 30000-60000Euo. I could double that in SP500. While require you stay significant time in their country so you are paying much higher tax + 20% VAT (similar to US sales tax). After 5 years, you got to pass their language test. the language is a typical small language ( I am not talking about Spanish, German and French). Sure you got to stay EU for more than 6 month per year and free to move in EU.
Do you have a link where these requirements are stated? From what I've read, investments in certain mutual funds are allowed. Also, according to the same site, Portugal only requires spending 2 weeks every 2 years to renew the visa.
One of the most attractive options is the ability to apply for permanent residency and citizenship after 5 years without the need to reside in Portugal. In fact, the applicant and their family need only visit for two weeks every two years in order to renew the Portuguese Golden Visa. In Portugal citizenship can be granted without the applicant having resided in the country. However the investor having acquired residency through the golden visa programm will need to demonstrate ties to the country and pass a basic language test.
There certainly are fees and without citizenship the issue of health care needs to be dealt with. Learning a new language, even a "small" one, isn't a huge barrier for someone motivated to do so.
No matter how long the hill, if you keep pedaling you'll eventually get up to the top.
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Raybo wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:45 am
WhiteMaxima wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:29 am those golden visa requires you to buy refundable zero% goverment bond of 250,000Euro + non-refundable fee of 30000-60000Euo. I could double that in SP500. While require you stay significant time in their country so you are paying much higher tax + 20% VAT (similar to US sales tax). After 5 years, you got to pass their language test. the language is a typical small language ( I am not talking about Spanish, German and French). Sure you got to stay EU for more than 6 month per year and free to move in EU.
Do you have a link where these requirements are stated? From what I've read, investments in certain mutual funds are allowed. Also, according to the same site, Portugal only requires spending 2 weeks every 2 years to renew the visa.
One of the most attractive options is the ability to apply for permanent residency and citizenship after 5 years without the need to reside in Portugal. In fact, the applicant and their family need only visit for two weeks every two years in order to renew the Portuguese Golden Visa. In Portugal citizenship can be granted without the applicant having resided in the country. However the investor having acquired residency through the golden visa programm will need to demonstrate ties to the country and pass a basic language test.
There certainly are fees and without citizenship the issue of health care needs to be dealt with. Learning a new language, even a "small" one, isn't a huge barrier for someone motivated to do so.
The 500k new house 300k old house purchase GV are ended in Portugal costal area. The real estate price has risen very fast since last recession. There is a D7 visa program that requires you stay at least 183 days a year. You have to show you have pension + SS income > 150% of min living expense , health insurance and lease or house purchase contract.
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by coalcracker »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:02 am
Raybo wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:45 am
WhiteMaxima wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:29 am those golden visa requires you to buy refundable zero% goverment bond of 250,000Euro + non-refundable fee of 30000-60000Euo. I could double that in SP500. While require you stay significant time in their country so you are paying much higher tax + 20% VAT (similar to US sales tax). After 5 years, you got to pass their language test. the language is a typical small language ( I am not talking about Spanish, German and French). Sure you got to stay EU for more than 6 month per year and free to move in EU.
Do you have a link where these requirements are stated? From what I've read, investments in certain mutual funds are allowed. Also, according to the same site, Portugal only requires spending 2 weeks every 2 years to renew the visa.
One of the most attractive options is the ability to apply for permanent residency and citizenship after 5 years without the need to reside in Portugal. In fact, the applicant and their family need only visit for two weeks every two years in order to renew the Portuguese Golden Visa. In Portugal citizenship can be granted without the applicant having resided in the country. However the investor having acquired residency through the golden visa programm will need to demonstrate ties to the country and pass a basic language test.
There certainly are fees and without citizenship the issue of health care needs to be dealt with. Learning a new language, even a "small" one, isn't a huge barrier for someone motivated to do so.
The 500k new house 300k old house purchase GV are ended in Portugal costal area. The real estate price has risen very fast since last recession. There is a D7 visa program that requires you stay at least 183 days a year. You have to show you have pension + SS income > 150% of min living expense , health insurance and lease or house purchase contract.
If one plans to live in Portugal straight away, it seems the D7 visa is an easier and even less risky choice than the Golden Visa Programs. From what I am reading, the D7 visa allows application for permanent residency after 5 years.

Do permanent residents have complete freedom to travel in the EU Schengen zone? Are there additional tax advantages to citizenship?
Vin61
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Vin61 »

We opted for the D7 route and retired to Portugal about 18 months ago. After 5 years one can receive permanent residency and/or citizenship. To qualify for citizenship you must pass a language test. Yes, you can freely move throughout the Schengen countries. My spouse also qualified and claimed Irish citizenship through ancestry. Ireland recognizes your citizenship if you have a parent or grandparent that is/was an Irish citizen. I don’t believe many other European countries go back as far as grandparents. She now has an Irish passport and can live and work anywhere she desires in the EU. I also qualify through EU laws that accommodate family reunification. Finally, the reason we also obtained the D7 visa was that the timing was more predictable and we were ready to make the move ASAP. Ireland, currently is very backlogged with their foreign birth citizenship processing.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Vin61 wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:09 pm We opted for the D7 route and retired to Portugal about 18 months ago. After 5 years one can receive permanent residency and/or citizenship. To qualify for citizenship you must pass a language test. Yes, you can freely move throughout the Schengen countries. My spouse also qualified and claimed Irish citizenship through ancestry. Ireland recognizes your citizenship if you have a parent or grandparent that is/was an Irish citizen. I don’t believe many other European countries go back as far as grandparents. She now has an Irish passport and can live and work anywhere she desires in the EU. I also qualify through EU laws that accommodate family reunification. Finally, the reason we also obtained the D7 visa was that the timing was more predictable and we were ready to make the move ASAP. Ireland, currently is very backlogged with their foreign birth citizenship processing.
Spain has similar visa program. Spanish is probably moro popular and easy to learn. Spanish economy is more developed than Portugal. Portugal is more layback and more welcome to abroad retirees. Once you into visa procedure, you have to move EU and live there for more than 6 months a year for 5 years. Are you plan to do so or no? With US passport, you can do 3 month a time and 6 months a year. You can do a visa run to non Schengen zone like UK and Turkey and come back. You will have more freedom and sample different country this way. EU give retiree visa is solely for tax revenue purpose. EU tax much higher than in the US. All these you need to think.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

Vin61 wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:09 pm We opted for the D7 route and retired to Portugal about 18 months ago. After 5 years one can receive permanent residency and/or citizenship. To qualify for citizenship you must pass a language test. Yes, you can freely move throughout the Schengen countries. My spouse also qualified and claimed Irish citizenship through ancestry. Ireland recognizes your citizenship if you have a parent or grandparent that is/was an Irish citizen. I don’t believe many other European countries go back as far as grandparents. She now has an Irish passport and can live and work anywhere she desires in the EU. I also qualify through EU laws that accommodate family reunification. Finally, the reason we also obtained the D7 visa was that the timing was more predictable and we were ready to make the move ASAP. Ireland, currently is very backlogged with their foreign birth citizenship processing.
Spain has similar visa program. Spanish is probably moro popular and easy to learn. Spanish economy is more developed than Portugal. Portugal is more layback and more welcome to abroad retirees. Once you into visa procedure, you have to move EU and live there for more than 6 months a year for 5 years. Are you plan to do so or no? With US passport, you can do 3 month a time and 6 months a year. You can do a visa run to non Schengen zone like UK and Turkey and come back. You will have more freedom and sample different country this way. EU give retiree visa is solely for tax revenue purpose. EU tax much higher than in the US. All these you need to think.
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Tejfyy
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tejfyy »

Not to sound discouraging but no one seems to be considering the pandemic and its near and long term impact on well... everything. I don't envision things ever going back to pre-pandemic days and "movement" is certainly going to affected.

Here's one real-world example. A couple (friends) bought a house in Italy in late 2019, planning to live there part of the year, Airbnb it the other part, eventually getting more permanent visas etc. A lot of Americans seem to have this dream. Work was being done on the house, one of them needed to be there. She finally was allowed to get on a plane in July and she's been there ever since after having paid a fairly sizable attorney's fee to "extend" her tourist visa. In Italy there are curfews and you're fined if you break them. She basically just stays in the house and goes to the grocery store.

Generally speaking, Europe is taking the pandemic more seriously than the US in terms of restrictions on movement. It's more densely populated and more dependent on public transport. It'll likely remain extremely difficult to even enter the EU for at least the remainder of the year. After that, who knows.

I've also recently read the EU is looking into Malta's visa's programs for certain inconsistencies with EU laws, having nothing to do with the pandemic of course.
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Tejfyy
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tejfyy »

Raybo wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:45 am Learning a new language ... isn't a huge barrier for someone motivated to do so.
I disagree particularly for a monolingual native English speaker.
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Tejfyy
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tejfyy »

Do you have any relationship to Portugal, any understanding or interest in the culture, the people, the language?
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Tejfyy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:49 am
Raybo wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:45 am Learning a new language ... isn't a huge barrier for someone motivated to do so.
I disagree particularly for a monolingual native English speaker.
Do you happen to know if the tests are written or oral? Since I have at one time or another spoken English, Spanish, and German, I find that I can often figure out the meaning of a written sentence in related languages, do a much less satisfactory job of writing a reply, do even worse in understanding a spoken sentence, and fail miserably in speaking a sentence beyond the level of “good morning.”

ETA: learning a language is a skill that isn’t permanent; it becomes much more difficult as one ages.
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by mecht3ach »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:01 am Do you happen to know if the tests are written or oral? Since I have at one time or another spoken English, Spanish, and German, I find that I can often figure out the meaning of a written sentence in related languages, do a much less satisfactory job of writing a reply, do even worse in understanding a spoken sentence, and fail miserably in speaking a sentence beyond the level of “good morning.”

ETA: learning a language is a skill that isn’t permanent; it becomes much more difficult as one ages.
I can't answer to the format of the test, but I have had to learn a smattering of Portuguese over the years due to collaborations in Brazil. That is admittedly a slightly different form of Portuguese than in Portugal, but my knowledge of Spanish (informally learned) and French (formally learned) greatly helped with understanding the spoken form of the language. As a comparison, I also speak German (formally learned) and English (native tongue), and find that while I can understand a lot of written Dutch or Swedish, I'm at a total loss when I hear it spoken (particularly Dutch).
simas
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by simas »

Tejfyy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:40 am
Not to sound discouraging but no one seems to be considering the pandemic and its near and long term impact on well... everything. I don't envision things ever going back to pre-pandemic days and "movement" is certainly going to affected.
+1 to the above.
another item to consider is the whole citizen vs non-citizen angle. if things get worse (economic downtown triggered by or jointly with pandemic or other events), you either are citizen or you are not (all longer term visas/permits/etc) . People can face very rude awakening in that regard.

Same applies here in US to citizen vs green card holders. as immigrant myself I have many friends who never 'bothered' to go through naturalization ('why? everything is exactly the same and I have been here for decades' approach). well, there are differences in how say COVID travel is treated, the right to return home, etc.

Just be careful if you are not actually full citizen of your target country. If push comes to shove, you are the easy target and very vulnerable (and this is coming from multi-lingual immigrant)

another thing that being 'local' gives is local web of support which many expats may or may not have.
sk.dolcevita
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by sk.dolcevita »

My wife and I, currently US citizens, had planned to move to Italy in few years. We both hold dual US and Italian citizenship. This was until I started digging into Italian taxation. Combined with the US extraterritorial taxation, the whole idea became deeply unpalatable to me, especially since our financial assets are mostly in US tax advantaged accounts (40x and IRA). I am still reading through the US-Italy tax treaty, but it is not looking good. It is too heavy a lift for me. We may just end living there for less than 183 days a year to avoid becoming a Italian tax resident, but that may be fraught with risks - Italian government is very interested in regarding that as an illegal tax evasion measure if done every year.
WhiteMaxima
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by WhiteMaxima »

sk.dolcevita wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:04 am My wife and I, currently US citizens, had planned to move to Italy in few years. We both hold dual US and Italian citizenship. This was until I started digging into Italian taxation. Combined with the US extraterritorial taxation, the whole idea became deeply unpalatable to me, especially since our financial assets are mostly in US tax advantaged accounts (40x and IRA). I am still reading through the US-Italy tax treaty, but it is not looking good. It is too heavy a lift for me. We may just end living there for less than 183 days a year to avoid becoming a Italian tax resident, but that may be fraught with risks - Italian government is very interested in regarding that as an illegal tax evasion measure if done every year.
Agree. You Roth IRA withdraw might considered as taxable income in EU. Maintain two houses in EU and US is difficult. If you look at EU country tax table, it is much higher than USA. Before you move there, you have to think it twice.
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Tejfyy
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Tejfyy »

simas wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:39 am
Tejfyy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:40 am
Not to sound discouraging but no one seems to be considering the pandemic and its near and long term impact on well... everything. I don't envision things ever going back to pre-pandemic days and "movement" is certainly going to affected.
+1 to the above.
another item to consider is the whole citizen vs non-citizen angle. if things get worse (economic downtown triggered by or jointly with pandemic or other events), you either are citizen or you are not (all longer term visas/permits/etc) . People can face very rude awakening in that regard.

Same applies here in US to citizen vs green card holders. as immigrant myself I have many friends who never 'bothered' to go through naturalization ('why? everything is exactly the same and I have been here for decades' approach). well, there are differences in how say COVID travel is treated, the right to return home, etc.

Just be careful if you are not actually full citizen of your target country. If push comes to shove, you are the easy target and very vulnerable (and this is coming from multi-lingual immigrant)

another thing that being 'local' gives is local web of support which many expats may or may not have.
What also happens with English-speaking expats quite easily is they live in linguistic ghettos. Never really learning the local language and culture.
Overall, I notice on this site and generally a certain degree of naive entitlement and dreaminess from Americans (and Brits) regarding moving around the planet.
simas
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by simas »

Tejfyy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:20 pm
simas wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:39 am
Tejfyy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:40 am
Not to sound discouraging but no one seems to be considering the pandemic and its near and long term impact on well... everything. I don't envision things ever going back to pre-pandemic days and "movement" is certainly going to affected.
+1 to the above.
another item to consider is the whole citizen vs non-citizen angle. if things get worse (economic downtown triggered by or jointly with pandemic or other events), you either are citizen or you are not (all longer term visas/permits/etc) . People can face very rude awakening in that regard.

Same applies here in US to citizen vs green card holders. as immigrant myself I have many friends who never 'bothered' to go through naturalization ('why? everything is exactly the same and I have been here for decades' approach). well, there are differences in how say COVID travel is treated, the right to return home, etc.

Just be careful if you are not actually full citizen of your target country. If push comes to shove, you are the easy target and very vulnerable (and this is coming from multi-lingual immigrant)

another thing that being 'local' gives is local web of support which many expats may or may not have.
What also happens with English-speaking expats quite easily is they live in linguistic ghettos. Never really learning the local language and culture.
Overall, I notice on this site and generally a certain degree of naive entitlement and dreaminess from Americans (and Brits) regarding moving around the planet.
if things go bad (unrest, disturbances, crime spike), they are also perfect easy targets - no local social network, no skills in navigating it, "rich foreigners" who are easy to blame for any mismanagement happening in any locale since no one would step up for them with any real force.

I am happy when people found their home (wherever it may be ), coming to US, leaving US and going ex-pat, etc. I hope they live fulfilling lives. I also hope they understand the difference between tourism and immigration (as Russian saying goes), these are two big differences..
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Non-US Investing forum (non-US investing).

US citizens need to be aware of taxation when living outside the US. See: US tax pitfalls for a US person living abroad
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elderwise
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by elderwise »

For US Citizens, I would highly recommend looking into the special Treaty Agreement the US has with NL.;

DAFT permit is a renewable 2 yr NL self employed person work permit without much hassel you should be able to secure one.I have found on reddit Uber drivers, and many bloggers, and writers moved there and went on to get the Permanent Residency & NL Passport (Keep in mind need to renounce US Passport unless you fall under their specific exemption category).

Cost is $4500 EUR needs to be maintained and kept in at all times, you CAN take up US clients for work. I did look into this very seriously vs Golden visa's usually costing $500K to $1MM, this is a dirt cheap way we Americans can get to EU without lineage / ancestry and spousal sponsorship.EU countries are hard to immigrate to.

https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-frie ... ve%20years.

The Dutch PR will give you free access I believe to most EU countries but NOT freedom of movement as a Full EU Citizen,
potz
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by potz »

EverydayWallSt wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:58 am Also, Portugal has a NHR (non habitual residency) scheme that means we pay 0 Portuguese taxes on foreign sources of income for 10 years. And Portugal has no wealth tax or estate tax (other than it value of your Portuguese home exceeds 500k or so, but it’s a relatively modest tax as it’s only on the home). That made it better than Spain for us.
I am a Canadian (non-resident) who is currently living in Asia tax free. Its time for a change so we are planning on eventually moving to Portugal

I am partially through completing the Portugal Golden Visa process. Qualifying investment made, required documents assembled, application being submitted this week

I am getting conflicting advice regarding the NHR and tax on our current Ireland Domiciled ETFs. Our current holdings are:

IWDA - ISHARES CORE MSCI WORLD
IGIL - ISHARES GLBL INFL LNKD GOVT
EIMI - ISHARES CORE EM IMI ACC

The most recent advice from a Portuguese tax lawyer is that capital gains from these holdings are taxed at 28% under the NHR scheme and not applicable to tax holiday (now 10%) on passive income under the NHR. Anyone have any insight on this? Is this only if we realize the capital gain and sell some of these holdings? As long as we do not sell there is no event to tax?

Thanks!
Last edited by potz on Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
assyadh
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by assyadh »

potz wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:25 am
EverydayWallSt wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:58 am Also, Portugal has a NHR (non habitual residency) scheme that means we pay 0 Portuguese taxes on foreign sources of income for 10 years. And Portugal has no wealth tax or estate tax (other than it value of your Portuguese home exceeds 500k or so, but it’s a relatively modest tax as it’s only on the home). That made it better than Spain for us.
I am a Canadian (non-resident) who is currently living in Asia tax free. Its time for a change so we are planning on eventually moving to Portugal

I am partially through completing the Portugal Golden Visa process. Qualifying investment made, required documents assembled, application being submitted this week

I am getting conflicting advice regarding the NHR and tax on our current Ireland Domiciled ETFs. Our current holdings are:

IWDA - ISHARES CORE MSCI WORLD
IGIL - ISHARES GLBL INFL LNKD GOVT
EIMI - ISHARES CORE EM IMI ACC

The most recent advice from a Portuguese tax lawyer is that capital gains from these holdings are taxed at 28% under the NHR scheme and not applicable to tax holiday (now 10%) on passive income under the NHR. Anyone have any insight on this? Is this only if we realize the capital gain and sell some of these holdings? As long as we do not sell there is no event to tax?

Thanks!
Yes, also no exit tax due upon leaving PT
SrGrumpy
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by SrGrumpy »

Elsebet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am My maternal great-grandparents were born in Lithuania and my paternal great-grandparents were from Hungary. I would love to pursue an EU passport if it's possible.
Basic Hungary citizenship info here:

https://losangeles.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/ ... itizenship

And Lithuanian here:

https://e-seimas.lrs.lt/portal/legalAct ... AIS.395555

It could be an interesting project, and likely costly if you think you are eligible - translations, apostilles, criminal records, etc. Watch for little quirks, though, e.g. rules based on patrilineal or matrilineal connections. Poland wants affidavits that you or your Polish ancestor did not serve in the (non-Polish) military. And Italy just changed their laws last year to require a basic level of Italian language.
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Elsebet
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Elsebet »

SrGrumpy wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:40 am
Elsebet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:42 am My maternal great-grandparents were born in Lithuania and my paternal great-grandparents were from Hungary. I would love to pursue an EU passport if it's possible.
Basic Hungary citizenship info here:

https://losangeles.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/ ... itizenship

And Lithuanian here:

https://e-seimas.lrs.lt/portal/legalAct ... AIS.395555

It could be an interesting project, and likely costly if you think you are eligible - translations, apostilles, criminal records, etc. Watch for little quirks, though, e.g. rules based on patrilineal or matrilineal connections. Poland wants affidavits that you or your Polish ancestor did not serve in the (non-Polish) military. And Italy just changed their laws last year to require a basic level of Italian language.

Thank you! I just received my paternal grandmother's documentation (birth/death/marriage certificates) and I now have the task of trying to find/order my great grandparent's documents from Lithuania. The problem is there are so many misspellings of the family's last name that I'm unsure which is the right one. As an example, the last name on my grandmother's birth, death, and marriage certificates are all different. Fortunately her parent's names are a little more consistent. What a journey this will be if I manage to even procure all the necessary documents.
"...the man who adapts himself to his slender means and makes himself wealthy on a little sum, is the truly rich man..." ~Seneca
Fortune Seeker
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Fortune Seeker »

Also be aware that Lithuania does not allow dual citizenship unless very specific circumstances are met:
https://www.migration.lt/dual-citizenship-in-lithuania
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Hyperborea
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Hyperborea »

potz wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:25 am I am partially through completing the Portugal Golden Visa process. Qualifying investment made, required documents assembled, application being submitted this week
If you don't mind would you be able to provide more info on what kind of investment you chose and how? I've looked at some of the funds and many don't look that promising. I'm not really hoping to make much on the required investment but I would like to not lose the money.

Also, how did you pick a law firm to use?
The most recent advice from a Portuguese tax lawyer is that capital gains from these holdings are taxed at 28% under the NHR scheme and not applicable to tax holiday (now 10%) on passive income under the NHR. Anyone have any insight on this? Is this only if we realize the capital gain and sell some of these holdings? As long as we do not sell there is no event to tax?
Everything I had seen was that passive income (dividends and interest) earned outside Portugal was still tax exempt within Portugal. The only change was that pension income has gone from 0% tax to 10% tax for new non-habitual residents as of last year.
It’s not just that facts don’t seem to matter anymore. It’s that it doesn’t seem to matter that facts don’t matter.
potz
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by potz »

Hyperborea wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:53 am f you don't mind would you be able to provide more info on what kind of investment you chose and how? I've looked at some of the funds and many don't look that promising. I'm not really hoping to make much on the required investment but I would like to not lose the money.

Also, how did you pick a law firm to use?
I chose Rock Capital Fund https://rockcapital.pt/ . It is a fund focused on acquiring distressed apartment buildings in Lisbon and renovating the units for resale. I interviewed 3 or 4 different fund managers for qualifying GV investments and I liked these guys the best. There were several other reasons I chose this fund. 1) the two fund founders are personally invested in the fund. 2) lower fees than most of the other funds 3) I am already quite light in real estate holdings as a portion of my overall net worth, so thought this was a good option,considering I did not want to purchase a home in Portugal yet.

There is forum here that is an ongoing discussion regarding the various GV qualifying funds as well as various lawyers

https://community.nomadgate.com/c/resid ... gration/21

This particular thread is great as has links to some Google Spreadsheets comparing all the funds

https://community.nomadgate.com/t/portu ... ison/25375

I am using Global Citizen Solutions for my visa process https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/. I looked at many options, including Henly & Partners, which was significantly more expensive. My experience to date has been very positive with GCS. They have been very professional, knowledgeable, available for any questions I have had.

There are some good discussions on why people chose various firms in the nomadgate forum I pasted above.
Hyperborea wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:53 am Everything I had seen was that passive income (dividends and interest) earned outside Portugal was still tax exempt within Portugal. The only change was that pension income has gone from 0% tax to 10% tax for new non-habitual residents as of last year.
Thats true, dividends and interest are tax exempt if outside Portugal. Most of my existing dividend income from private investments, as well as real estate income outside of Portugal will be exempt.

But dig a little deeper and you will find capital gains on the sale of financial instruments (stocks, etf's included) do NOT qualify for the NHR tax break and are taxed at standard 28%. I have consulted 2 different tax attorneys in Portugal who have expertise in the NHR program and they have highlighted this to me.

The situation changes if the stocks/etf's/funds are in a retirement structure of some sort, like a 401(k) or IRA for Americans for example, it is then viewed as a retirement structure from a Portugal perspective and not taxed. My ETF holdings are not in any sort of structure or retirement designated account and are in a self managed portfolio with Interactive Brokers.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Json »

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Json
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Json »

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Bogle1984
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by Bogle1984 »

As a European, why would you actually be interested living in Europe? Is it the lower cost of living?

I had the opportunity to visit Houston for some time precovid. Had a great time there and really liked the weather. It was somehow like southern Europe climate wise. I think there must be some nice places in the south of the US near the seaside for retirement.
CCD
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Re: Golden Visa Programs

Post by CCD »

To name a few: weather, culture, gun violence/control, police force, health insurance, political polarization. We are applying for D7 and hopefully moving in the fall...
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