VWRA vs SSAC?

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investor12
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VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by investor12 »

Hey,

Blackrock lowered the fees for SSAC from 0.6% to 0.2%.
Does anyone knows what are the main differences between VWRA and SSAC?
Did SSAC become relevant?
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tre3sori
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by tre3sori »

VWRA - Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF, Acc
https://www.institutional.vanguard.co.u ... /?overview
SSAC - iShares MSCI ACWI UCITS ETF, Acc (listed in Switzerland and London)
https://www.ishares.com/ch/individual/e ... chLocale=Y

I just checked: the one listed in Germany
IUSQ - iShares MSCI ACWI UCITS ETF, Acc lowered TER to 0.20% as well.

So now we have a serious competitor for
VWRA, VWCE - Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF Acc, TER 0.22%

VWRD, VWGA - the distributing versions of Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF don't seem to have
a serious competitor yet.

For practical investing purposes, both VWRA and SSAC seem to be almost identical:
Image
For some reason Morningstar never gets the colors right on these charts: blue is VWRA, green is SSAC

I didn't check AUM, liquidity, spread etc. though.
The information provided is intended to be entertaining. It is not to be construed as professional advice. Use it at your own risk.
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by alpine_boglehead »

They should be practically identical.

Both funds are large enough to not worry about a too small sizes, SSAC has 1.2B€ in assets (been around since 2011), VWRA/VWRL (share classes of the same fund) have 6.7B€ in total, the distributing VWRL has the inception date in 2012, its accumulating sibling VWRA was added only in 2019.

Interesting that the expense ratio dropped that much. I always found that is was an interesting fund (as it had been around long before VWRL/VWRA), but that BlackRock wanted to milk the customers trapped there due to capital gains by not lowering the ER. Nice move on their part for the existing customers. And it makes it interesting for new ones as well.

I took a look at the holdings from the annual report of both funds.

The indices are probably also a bit different, SSAC includes Argentina, VWRA doesn't. VWRA includes Kuwait, SSAC doesn't.

The main difference seems to be that SSAC does more of a sampling approach, holding about 800 stocks, whereas VWRA holds about 3200 stocks. E.g. my home country Austria is represented by only 2 stocks in SSAC, and 8 stocks in VWRA.

SSA lists e.g. Brazil and Greece as part of the index, but doesn't actually include stocks from those countries (it might have exposure through other instruments, though).
glorat
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by glorat »

Very interesting news! As previous poster said, to all intents and purposes they are the same. I wonder if iShares will continue to maintain narrower bid/ask spreads on its range compared to Vanguard.

Vanguard tracks the FTSE All World index, whereas iShares follows the MSCI ACWI Index

Good to see the competition.
pin
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by pin »

Awesome news, glad to see more competition.

Glad that they finally dropped the TER to something much more reasonable.

I guess this negates using IWDA + EIMI for ishares then?
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

Not bad !

However, SSAC performances are slightly less than VWRA:

As of today, SSAC is +80% while VWRA is +83% (vs 1st January 2014)

Image
NRA, LSE-based ETFs only | 1-fund portfolio powered by Vanguard: 120% VWRA | Following the Lifecycle Investing Strategy
glorat
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by glorat »

thibaulthib wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:39 pm However, SSAC performances are slightly less than VWRA:
Past performance doesn't predict future performance. Unless...

One is failing to track its benchmark well. So the only useful thing to do here is to compare the benchmark data (NDUEACWF vs AW01). If the performance is due to the benchmarks - that's just the way that luck goes

If it is due to the fund itself then SSAC-NDUEACWF vs VWRA-AW01 is a valid piece of information to draw conclusions.

Unfortunately, I can't find a website that is able to have historical prices of the benchmarks and do that analysis. (Almost tempted to build a website that has it all... but that's other story)
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

glorat wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:56 pm
Past performance doesn't predict future performance. Unless...

One is failing to track its benchmark well. So the only useful thing to do here is to compare the benchmark data (NDUEACWF vs AW01). If the performance is due to the benchmarks - that's just the way that luck goes

If it is due to the fund itself then SSAC-NDUEACWF vs VWRA-AW01 is a valid piece of information to draw conclusions.

Unfortunately, I can't find a website that is able to have historical prices of the benchmarks and do that analysis. (Almost tempted to build a website that has it all... but that's other story)
Agreed with you. That raises a question to me:
- As of today, all my life savings are invested in 90% VWRA + 10% AGGU, in IB LLC (while NRA, i.e. French living in Singapore)
- Would it be ok to start using SSAC in order to split the risk between Vanguard and iShares?

I'm asking this since VWRA is tracking FTSE, but SSAC is tracking MSCI.
NRA, LSE-based ETFs only | 1-fund portfolio powered by Vanguard: 120% VWRA | Following the Lifecycle Investing Strategy
vstariradev
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by vstariradev »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:06 am - Would it be ok to start using SSAC in order to split the risk between Vanguard and iShares?
I’ve never thought of doing that. What scenario would that protect you against and is it a reasonable risk to try to mitigate by complicating your portfolio?
DodoVarga
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by DodoVarga »

vstariradev wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:06 pm
thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:06 am - Would it be ok to start using SSAC in order to split the risk between Vanguard and iShares?
I’ve never thought of doing that. What scenario would that protect you against and is it a reasonable risk to try to mitigate by complicating your portfolio?
I see two use cases:
Splitting reduce your risk if one fund discontinued and force you to have tax event.
Also, if you have already a lot of gains in one fund, then if your broker does FIFO, it will create unfavorable tax event. If you start second fund, you can sell it before to do LIFO.
JimBeam
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by JimBeam »

DodoVarga wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:22 pm
vstariradev wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:06 pm
thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:06 am - Would it be ok to start using SSAC in order to split the risk between Vanguard and iShares?
I’ve never thought of doing that. What scenario would that protect you against and is it a reasonable risk to try to mitigate by complicating your portfolio?
I see two use cases:
Splitting reduce your risk if one fund discontinued and force you to have tax event.
Also, if you have already a lot of gains in one fund, then if your broker does FIFO, it will create unfavorable tax event. If you start second fund, you can sell it before to do LIFO.
I totally agree with DodoVarga.
Also, why do you see having two ETFs instead of one at your brokerage account as complicated?
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

vstariradev wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:06 pm
thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:06 am - Would it be ok to start using SSAC in order to split the risk between Vanguard and iShares?
I’ve never thought of doing that. What scenario would that protect you against and is it a reasonable risk to try to mitigate by complicating your portfolio?
If i hold 50% of WVRA and 50% of SSAC, That would help me mitigate about the liquidation of one another ETFs, moreover one held by Vanguard and the other one by iShares/Blackrock.
Last edited by oldchap on Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jg12345
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by jg12345 »

Hi all,

I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?

IWDA is 0.2% TER and I get that it has a much higher AUM but well, I'm not sure that benefit it's worth 0.08% TER

happy to read another post if this has been discussed already; I saw most post comparing VWRL to IWDA+EIMI

Btw, for UK and Italy residents, Finecobank has fixed commission fee of 3-6gbp per operation on EU markets, and no platform fee for ETFs.

Thanks!
vstariradev
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by vstariradev »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:33 pm If i hold 50% of WVRA and 50% of DDAC, That would help me mitigate about the liquidation of one another ETFs, moreover one held by Vanguard and the other one by iShares/Blackrock.
That's what I don't fully get. Let's use a car analogy. I don't want to have a car crash so I buy two cars and switch between them when I go to work. I don't see it as risk mitigating because you'll be affected if either ETF goes south. I see it as impact reducing at the cost of spreading the risk over two ETFs.
Genghis
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by Genghis »

jg12345 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:38 pm I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?
VEVE tracks FTSE Developed index. EIMI tracks the MSCI EM index. Trying to replicate a global portfolio in this way will result in doubling up on South Korea and Poland IIRC.
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Maple
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by Maple »

investor12 wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:19 am ... Blackrock lowered the fees for SSAC from 0.6% to 0.2% ...
Investor12, thanks for posting this. When did this happen and was there a press release perhaps including other fee reductions?

glorat wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:56 pm
thibaulthib wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:39 pm However, SSAC performances are slightly less than VWRA:
Past performance doesn't predict future performance. Unless...

One is failing to track its benchmark well. So the only useful thing to do here is to compare the benchmark data (NDUEACWF vs AW01). If the performance is due to the benchmarks - that's just the way that luck goes

If it is due to the fund itself then SSAC-NDUEACWF vs VWRA-AW01 is a valid piece of information to draw conclusions.

Unfortunately, I can't find a website that is able to have historical prices of the benchmarks and do that analysis. (Almost tempted to build a website that has it all... but that's other story)
This performance difference seems largely attributable to the difference in the fund management fees (~0.4% annual difference over 6 years causing the difference, ~83% vs ~80%, between funds).
pin
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by pin »

Genghis wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
jg12345 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:38 pm I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?
VEVE tracks FTSE Developed index. EIMI tracks the MSCI EM index. Trying to replicate a global portfolio in this way will result in doubling up on South Korea and Poland IIRC.
You could always do VEVE and VDEV, they would then both be Vanguard tracking FTSE rather than mixing ishares (tracking MSCI) and vanguard (tracking FTSE).

VEVE it seems hasn't really been popular due to its quite low AUM and liquidity.

I guess one could go FTSE with VEVE and VDEV or MSCI with IWDA and EIMI for maximum coverage. OR now you can just stick to one fund for both developed and developing with VWRA / VWRD (FTSE) or SSAC (MSCI).
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

For those already owning VWRA, is it wise stopping investing into it, and switch to ISAC now?
NRA, LSE-based ETFs only | 1-fund portfolio powered by Vanguard: 120% VWRA | Following the Lifecycle Investing Strategy
pin
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by pin »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:15 pm For those already owning VWRA, is it wise stopping investing into it, and switch to ISAC now?
No, I would just continue doing what you are doing.
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

pin wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:55 pm No, I would just continue doing what you are doing.
Any reason why you you just continue the same way?

What I see by doing so is:
- Very slightly lowering down the ER cost from 0.22% to 0.20% on the newly purchased positions
- Splitting the risk between Vanguard (FTSE) and iShares (MSCI)

Of course, I would not sell any VWRA, but would only by ISAC till I reach 50% VWRA and 50% ISAC.

What are your thoughts?
NRA, LSE-based ETFs only | 1-fund portfolio powered by Vanguard: 120% VWRA | Following the Lifecycle Investing Strategy
pin
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by pin »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:14 pm
pin wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:55 pm No, I would just continue doing what you are doing.
Any reason why you you just continue the same way?

What I see by doing so is:
- Very slightly lowering down the ER cost from 0.22% to 0.20% on the newly purchased positions
- Splitting the risk between Vanguard (FTSE) and iShares (MSCI)

Of course, I would not sell any VWRA, but would only by ISAC till I reach 50% VWRA and 50% ISAC.

What are your thoughts?
Really its a matter of 0.02 and I wouldn't be surprised if Vanguard dropped their fees in due course.

Honestly and as you have seen in the thread, their performance is about the same.

It's up to you at the end of the day how you want to cut it.
assyadh
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by assyadh »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:14 pm
pin wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:55 pm No, I would just continue doing what you are doing.
Any reason why you you just continue the same way?

What I see by doing so is:
- Very slightly lowering down the ER cost from 0.22% to 0.20% on the newly purchased positions
- Splitting the risk between Vanguard (FTSE) and iShares (MSCI)

Of course, I would not sell any VWRA, but would only by ISAC till I reach 50% VWRA and 50% ISAC.

What are your thoughts?
@thibaulthib. Rien ne sert de courir, il faut partir à point.

0.02% is not worth the complexity unless you're a multi millionaire. You live in Singapore iirc so you don't have to pay CGT if you choose to rebalance. I would wait it out, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vanguard cut fees for VWRA like they have already done in the past.
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

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Topic Author
investor12
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by investor12 »

Maple wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:44 pm
Investor12, thanks for posting this. When did this happen and was there a press release perhaps including other fee reductions?
I'm from Israel, and we have a version of SSAC that is available in our currency and stock exchange.
I'm currently investing in VWRA, and this requires me to exchange to USD and pay extra fees to the broker because this ETF is bought abroad.

I didn't see any press release for this news.

I think I'm going to keep my current holdings of VWRA and start buying SSAC with the new deposits.
jg12345
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by jg12345 »

Genghis wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
jg12345 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:38 pm I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?
VEVE tracks FTSE Developed index. EIMI tracks the MSCI EM index. Trying to replicate a global portfolio in this way will result in doubling up on South Korea and Poland IIRC.
Thanks, helpful!
Topic Author
investor12
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by investor12 »

jg12345 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:36 am
Genghis wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
jg12345 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:38 pm I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?
VEVE tracks FTSE Developed index. EIMI tracks the MSCI EM index. Trying to replicate a global portfolio in this way will result in doubling up on South Korea and Poland IIRC.
Thanks, helpful!
VHVE with VFEA is also an option.
pin
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by pin »

investor12 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am
jg12345 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:36 am
Genghis wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
jg12345 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:38 pm I am wondering why VEVE (0.12% ter, 0.9bn AUM) + EIMI (0.18% ter), two different brokers, is not mentioned as an option?
VEVE tracks FTSE Developed index. EIMI tracks the MSCI EM index. Trying to replicate a global portfolio in this way will result in doubling up on South Korea and Poland IIRC.
Thanks, helpful!
VHVE with VFEA is also an option.
Yes, that would also work.
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

investor12 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am VHVE with VFEA is also an option.
Too bad the share class assets is super duper low.... The spread will be wide.
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alpine_boglehead
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by alpine_boglehead »

thibaulthib wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:39 pm Not bad !

However, SSAC performances are slightly less than VWRA:

As of today, SSAC is +80% while VWRA is +83% (vs 1st January 2014)

Image
SSAC has had a ER of 0.6% most of the time, whereas VWRA has had 0.25 (and now has 0.22) - that pretty much matches the difference across this timespan.
assyadh
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by assyadh »

thibaulthib wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:44 pm
investor12 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am VHVE with VFEA is also an option.
Too bad the share class assets is super duper low.... The spread will be wide.
Share class size is not an indicator of liquidity. Just put a limit order and it will eventually be filled.
jg12345
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by jg12345 »

assyadh wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:50 am
thibaulthib wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:44 pm
investor12 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:08 am VHVE with VFEA is also an option.
Too bad the share class assets is super duper low.... The spread will be wide.
Share class size is not an indicator of liquidity. Just put a limit order and it will eventually be filled.
sorry this is off-topic at this point.

I am personally going Vanguard FTSE developed World + Vanguard FTSE EM for my new deposits.
Regarding liquidity,
- AUM for VGVE is 900m, and bid-ask spread is only a few eurocents (6-8 cents today) larger than VWRA or SSAC
- AUM for VFEA is beyond 2bn, so 0 worries on that side

I understand it is debatable that 0.1% * 90% = 0.09% saved per year may not be worth the simplicity, automatic rebalancing, higher liquidity, but well, I think it is.
Rosales
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by Rosales »

Staying the course with VWRA.
VWRA & chill
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

Hello folks!

Just checking with you all where you're at now? Has anybody jumped into ISAC/SSAC?
NRA, LSE-based ETFs only | 1-fund portfolio powered by Vanguard: 120% VWRA | Following the Lifecycle Investing Strategy
jg12345
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by jg12345 »

thibaulthib wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:25 pm Hello folks!

Just checking with you all where you're at now? Has anybody jumped into ISAC/SSAC?
Nope. I have however jumped from two funds EM+developed to one fund FTSE all-world for the benefit of simplicity/no dabbling with EM weights.
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

I'm actually contemplating starting to invest my new cash into ISAC instead of VWRA:

Image

For the sake of it, why I wanna try to reach 50% VWRA and 50% ISAC:
- VWRA is using Vanguard, ISAC is using iShares/BlackRock
- Narrower bid-ask spread with Vanguard (0.05%) than iShares (0.1%) ?
- VWRA is tracking FTSE, ISAC is tracking MSCI
- VWRA ER is 0.22%, ISAC ER is 0.20%
- VWRA performances used to be better than ISAC, but since April 2021, ISAC performances are slightly better (Due to the lower ER?)
Last edited by oldchap on Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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helloyou
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by helloyou »

thibaulthib wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:39 pm I'm actually contemplating starting to invest my new cash into ISAC instead of VWRA:

Image

For the sake of it, why I wanna try to reach 50% VWRA and 50% ISAC:
- VWRA is using Vanguard, ISAC is using iShares/BlackRock
- Narrower bid-ask spread with iShares/BlackRock
- VWRA is tracking FTSE, ISAC is tracking MSCI
- VWRA ER is 0.22%, ISAC ER is 0.20%
- VWRA performances used to be better than ISAC, but since April 2021, ISAC performances are slightly better (Due to the lower ER?)
I think you are overthink this :)

Juste stick with one, not much differences in between both. I don’t know if vanguard as more history of reducing expense ratios over time compared to iShares but maybe choose based on this. Not many differences besides this and the fact that one is MSCI and the other is MSCI
oldchap
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by oldchap »

helloyou wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:29 am I think you are overthink this :)

Juste stick with one, not much differences in between both. I don’t know if vanguard as more history of reducing expense ratios over time compared to iShares but maybe choose based on this. Not many differences besides this and the fact that one is MSCI and the other is MSCI
I know what you mean, but when the nest egg is getting quite big, one should protect himself against any eventuality haha.

I only have a single ETF in my portfolio (VWRA) so if I get to have 2 ETFs instead, that's not a big deal either :)
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Hustlinghustling
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Re: VWRA vs SSAC?

Post by Hustlinghustling »

thibaulthib wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:48 am
helloyou wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:29 am I think you are overthink this :)

Juste stick with one, not much differences in between both. I don’t know if vanguard as more history of reducing expense ratios over time compared to iShares but maybe choose based on this. Not many differences besides this and the fact that one is MSCI and the other is MSCI
I know what you mean, but when the nest egg is getting quite big, one should protect himself against any eventuality haha.

I only have a single ETF in my portfolio (VWRA) so if I get to have 2 ETFs instead, that's not a big deal either :)
Agree. I do the same.
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