Be Wary of Whole Life threads
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Be Wary of Whole Life threads
The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
Last edited by Alex Frakt on Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A current search of "whole life" on this forum shows "about 1,160 results": http://www.google.com/search?q=%22whole ... eheads.orgdk01 wrote:Hi,
If there can't be a discussion on WL then please either change the forums posting guide from "insurance" to "non-whole life insurance". Or in the posting guide state "We do not allow discussions on whole life.".
dk01 is one of those sock puppets. Someone forgot to ban him or her, I'll take care of that now.
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Help me "connect the dots". So, these folks push a general product or service. How do they personally benefit? Private messages? Links to specific products/services? Other?Alex Frakt wrote:The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Private messages. If anyone receives a PM from someone offering to sell them insurance services, please let me or a moderator know via PM.dm200 wrote:Help me "connect the dots". So, these folks push a general product or service. How do they personally benefit? Private messages? Links to specific products/services? Other?
Also there are only around a half dozen people who have done this since we started out. The problem is that they tend to come back with different usernames after we catch them. One agent is particularly notorious among the moderators for this: his usernames so far include Insurance Guy, Insurance Man, Insurance, MScary07, LynnSwann, abceater, J.smit and insurance1288. Unfortunately his ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically so we haven't been able to do a blanket ban.
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
In addition to the Private Message method of contacting forum members, some folks (or companies) are paid ""flacks" (publicists) for companies or entire industries and/or their products. It's a form of "advertising" disguised as "information" or "awareness raising". The idea is that the industry benefits from increased sales of the product being pushed. Posting shill posts on a forum is one way of earning their pay.dm200 wrote:Help me "connect the dots". So, these folks push a general product or service. How do they personally benefit? Private messages? Links to specific products/services? Other?Alex Frakt wrote:The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
Best Regards - Mel |
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Semper Fi
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Forum "shills"
A problem with "shill" posts is that they misrepresent the truth--not only about themselves but about facts as well.
Fortunately, most Bogleheads are knowledgeable in financial matters and unscrupulous posters are soon reported to moderators for investigation.
Fortunately, most Bogleheads are knowledgeable in financial matters and unscrupulous posters are soon reported to moderators for investigation.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Thanks for confirming this... I had wondered about a certain similarity in style between some of them.Alex Frakt wrote:[One agent is particularly notorious among the moderators for this: his usernames so far include Insurance Guy, Insurance Man, Insurance, MScary07, LynnSwann, abceater, J.smit and insurance1288. Unfortunately his ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically so we haven't been able to do a blanket ban.
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thanks for the warning
I really appreciate the moderators keeping on top of these issues. So many people who are new to investing come here for the unbiased, objective advice from other investors.
There are lots of places on the net for advisors to market products--I don't think this forum should be one of them.
Thanks very much.
patricia
There are lots of places on the net for advisors to market products--I don't think this forum should be one of them.
Thanks very much.
patricia
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
If he/she can be personally identified, it would seem that a report to the companies whose insurance he sells would be in order. Surely they don't condone or allow their agents to spam?Alex Frakt wrote:One agent is particularly notorious among the moderators for this: his usernames so far include Insurance Guy, Insurance Man, Insurance, MScary07, LynnSwann, abceater, J.smit and insurance1288. Unfortunately his ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically so we haven't been able to do a blanket ban.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:segfault wrote:If he/she can be personally identified, it would seem that a report to the companies whose insurance he sells would be in order. Surely they don't condone or allow their agents to spam?Alex Frakt wrote:One agent is particularly notorious among the moderators for this: his usernames so far include Insurance Guy, Insurance Man, Insurance, MScary07, LynnSwann, abceater, J.smit and insurance1288. Unfortunately his ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically so we haven't been able to do a blanket ban.
That's a good one!
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More specifically, "permanent insurance" should be a red flag, just as spam keywords are; this appears to be a name used for the product primarily by insurance salespeople, because the usual term, "whole life", has a bad name.Scottner wrote:Do you have any website settings to force a new thread from a new user into a moderator holding queue if it contains words like "whole" and "insurance"?
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Thank you Alex.Alex Frakt wrote:The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
Term life insurance only.
I smell this people ( also a gold bugs too) from a distance.
"The fund industry doesn't have a lot of heroes, but he (Bogle) is one of them," Russ Kinnel
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Great job, kudos, I really appreciate the hard work that the Moderators are doing.Alex Frakt wrote: The problem is that they tend to come back with different usernames after we catch them. One agent is particularly notorious among the moderators for this: his usernames so far include Insurance Guy, Insurance Man, Insurance, MScary07, LynnSwann, abceater, J.smit and insurance1288. Unfortunately his ISP assigns IP addresses dynamically so we haven't been able to do a blanket ban.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein |
Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
I wanted to throw my thanks
into this thread.
The moderators do a terrific job keeping this site clean.
hex
The moderators do a terrific job keeping this site clean.
hex
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
What about posts about active ETFs?Mel Lindauer wrote:In addition to the Private Message method of contacting forum members, some folks (or companies) are paid ""flacks" (publicists) for companies or entire industries and/or their products. It's a form of "advertising" disguised as "information" or "awareness raising". The idea is that the industry benefits from increased sales of the product being pushed. Posting shill posts on a forum is one way of earning their pay.dm200 wrote:Help me "connect the dots". So, these folks push a general product or service. How do they personally benefit? Private messages? Links to specific products/services? Other?Alex Frakt wrote:The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57194
Although our intellect always longs for clarity and certainty, our nature often finds uncertainty fascinating.
I agree one shouldn't debate with people like this. As always, I think Gandalf said it best:555 wrote:One thing people should be aware of is that even though these shills aren't going to "win" their debate here, when you engage them in debate you may be sharpening up their skills for when they target a more vulnerable audience.
Gandalf wrote: A witless worm have you become. Therefore be silent, and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls. See... here is a snake!
Cheers,
RIP Mr. Bogle.
Perhaps the entire country is creeping with whole life sales, but not this site. This site is one tiny refuge from the sharks!
Thanks Alex!
Steve
Thanks Alex!
Steve
Never in the history of market day-traders’ has the obsession with so much massive, sophisticated, & powerful statistical machinery used by the brightest people on earth with such useless results.
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Something to remember
Hi Bogleheads:
A useful saying:
A useful saying:
If you wrestle a pig you end-up with mud on yourself.
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Re: Forum "shills"
But they are sooooo much fun to beat up onTaylor Larimore wrote:A problem with "shill" posts is that they misrepresent the truth--not only about themselves but about facts as well.
BruceM
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Got enough info to file a complaint with a state insurance commissioner?Alex Frakt wrote:The moderators have discovered that three recent threads devoted to Whole Life Insurance were posted by sock puppets (people claiming to be something they are not to push a product or service).
This is not the first time this has happened here. It appears that the popularity of this forum in terms of google search results for those researching whole life has made us a target of insurance agents who wish to muddy the waters of the general advice posted here on whole life - i.e., it is only appropriate for unusual and specific specific situations, such as estate planning for those whose assets are tied up in a family business. Otherwise, the preferred solution is to use term life for your insurance needs and invest the difference.
Paul
I have to agree with Bruce - the "combat" between these trolls and Bogleheads can be downright entertaining, and I bet most of these guys were not expecting the reception they receive here.555 wrote:One thing people should be aware of is that even though these shills aren't going to "win" their debate here, when you engage them in debate you may be sharpening up their skills for when they target a more vulnerable audience.
And, while I guess it might help them sharpen their sales pitch, I think it also drives the real facts home to the readers of this forum.
And, there are rare situations where permanent life insurance is appropriate (add funding for a special needs child to those already mentioned)
" Successful investing involves doing just a few things right, and avoiding serious mistakes." - J. Bogle
Oh how I miss the threads were ole meph, single-handed, beat back the slimy arguments of the Whole Life Insurance 'sock puppets'.mephistophles wrote:Thanks Alex,
Whole Life, market timing, gold, loaded funds and individual stock purchases are topics that often attract trolls.
ole meph
Those threads probably kept up mephistophles into the late hours of many evenings for days on end...but I was amazed at his expertise on the subject.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
From a long overdue request, this thread is now a sticky.
A shill, plant, or stooge is a person who helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization. An insurance shill is someone who posts comments related to insurance products, but with the intent to promote those products in-lieu of the member's best interest. Often a shill will start an insurance thread on the forum, posing as a novice, thus giving other shills and sockpuppets the chance to chime in and promote a particular insurance product or company.
(A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term refers to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.)
I didn't know what a "shill" was. After some research (and questions to the experts), here's the answer:Taylor Larimore wrote:A problem with "shill" posts is that they misrepresent the truth--not only about themselves but about facts as well.
Fortunately, most Bogleheads are knowledgeable in financial matters and unscrupulous posters are soon reported to moderators for investigation.
A shill, plant, or stooge is a person who helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization. An insurance shill is someone who posts comments related to insurance products, but with the intent to promote those products in-lieu of the member's best interest. Often a shill will start an insurance thread on the forum, posing as a novice, thus giving other shills and sockpuppets the chance to chime in and promote a particular insurance product or company.
(A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term refers to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.)
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Or disguised as the LEAP process!
Another marketing gimmick pushing whole life!
Another marketing gimmick pushing whole life!
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
yea i see they removed the posts from one recent person pretending to be 22 and wanting whole life.
they used to anger me but now that im more knowledgeable, i dont mind beating them down especially since i believe most people need to know why what they say is BS. If we dont educate people on why these products are poor investments, then what happens is our colleagues go out and cant defend themselves against this garbage. Additionally there are so many groups like Peachtree Planning for instance that pretend to be fiduciary investment advisors but really are just a front for Guardian so you dont always know when you are dealing with someone who really is just an agent with an insurance agenda.
they used to anger me but now that im more knowledgeable, i dont mind beating them down especially since i believe most people need to know why what they say is BS. If we dont educate people on why these products are poor investments, then what happens is our colleagues go out and cant defend themselves against this garbage. Additionally there are so many groups like Peachtree Planning for instance that pretend to be fiduciary investment advisors but really are just a front for Guardian so you dont always know when you are dealing with someone who really is just an agent with an insurance agenda.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
LEAP isnt the only one. Living Balance is another such garbage program. Never let them put your financial info into these programs.
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Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Originally, a shill was someone at a carnival game who's in cahoots with the game operator. The game is rigged and the operator lets the shill pretend to win and get a prize so as to encourage others to play. Or the shill may simply stroll around the carnival carrying a huge stuffed toy that he or she has apparently won, to arouse the greed of small children.LadyGeek wrote:I didn't know what a "shill" was.
The shill may be someone who pretends to be betting on or participating in a three-card monte game. The purpose is to encourage the mark (victim) to see that lots of people are playing, so it must be OK.
Remembering that "you can't cheat an honest man," the shill may also encourage the mark to cheat the dealer. the dealer's technique isn't good, or the card has a visible scratch on it or something, so it's easy to win. The shill wants to bring the mark into partnership with him for one last giant bet in which they are going to clean out the dealer.
All strictly from reading old novels and such. Never seen a real three-card-monte game and the argot may be out of date. Of course I have seen shills carrying huge stuffed toys around carnivals, and I was one of the little kids that desperately wanted to win one.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
One other point: If a member has been disciplined by the moderators for being an insurance shill, "insurance shill / spammer" is now being inserted into that member's Location profile.
The Location field is visible in all posts, the member list, and user profile; so you can be aware of this action. This also applies to spammers.
Click on "Members" at the top right, then "Joined" to see the most recent members sorted first.
The Location field is visible in all posts, the member list, and user profile; so you can be aware of this action. This also applies to spammers.
Click on "Members" at the top right, then "Joined" to see the most recent members sorted first.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Thanks for the info LGeek!
" Wealth usually leads to excess " Cicero 55 b.c
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Don't know who came up with this but this is a FANTASTIC idea!LadyGeek wrote:One other point: If a member has been disciplined by the moderators for being an insurance shill, "insurance shill / spammer" is now being inserted into that member's Location profile.
The Location field is visible in all posts, the member list, and user profile; so you can be aware of this action. This also applies to spammers.
Be smug when others are fearful; be fearful when others are smug.
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Re: shills
Actually, I thought a previous posting regarding a purchase of a house in NC by a Wells Fargo poster [tea_lover](he had only a few postings before) might have been a shill posting (to potentially encourage others he might have sent there to buy) with his insistance on purchase of a certain house --- directly from the builder-- despite a number of posters indicating the new-buyer premium seemed high, and other homes in the area were indicated by other posters to be significantly lower, although built relatively recently. (The OP clearly indicated he was a mid-twentysomething employee at Wells Fargo.)
see posting: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=87362
see posting: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=87362
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Re: shills
Whenever you see something that appears to be out of line or that smacks of shilling, just let me or another one of the Mods know and we'll look into it.Cheap_rookie wrote:Actually, I thought a previous posting regarding a purchase of a house in NC by a Wells Fargo poster (he had only a few postings before) might have been a shill posting (to potentially encourage others he might have sent there to buy) with his insistance on purchase of a certain house --- directly from the builder-- despite a number of posters indicating the new-buyer premium seemed high, and other homes in the area were indicated by other posters to be significantly lower, although built relatively recently. (The OP clearly indicated he was a mid-twentysomething employee at Wells Fargo.)
Best Regards - Mel |
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Semper Fi
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Re: shills
Mel Lindauer wrote:Whenever you see something that appears to be out of line or that smacks of shilling, just let me or another one of the Mods know and we'll look into it.Cheap_rookie wrote:Actually, I thought a previous posting regarding a purchase of a house in NC by a Wells Fargo poster (he had only a few postings before) might have been a shill posting (to potentially encourage others he might have sent there to buy) with his insistance on purchase of a certain house --- directly from the builder-- despite a number of posters indicating the new-buyer premium seemed high, and other homes in the area were indicated by other posters to be significantly lower, although built relatively recently. (The OP clearly indicated he was a mid-twentysomething employee at Wells Fargo.)
edited to include the forum posting
Re: shills
Which is a reminder for the "other" sticky: REPORTING VIOLATIONS AND UNWELCOME PMs, which will flag the moderatorsMel Lindauer wrote:Whenever you see something that appears to be out of line or that smacks of shilling, just let me or another one of the Mods know and we'll look into it.
Who are the moderators? At the bottom right of every page: The team
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
From the movie adventurelandnisiprius wrote: Of course I have seen shills carrying huge stuffed toys around carnivals, and I was one of the little kids that desperately wanted to win one.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1091722/
Paulette: This is James, and he's applying for a games job.
Bobby: Games! Oh, great, good. Let's get you set up.
James: Actually, Bobby, I'd prefer a rides job,if it's still open.
Bobby: You look more like a games guy, plus I've already got out the games application, so... All right?
James: Okay. Yeah, no. I just...
Bobby: My name is Bobby. Okay, rules. No freebies,
no free turns for your friends,
-no free upgrades, no free food.
-So, just nothing is free here.
Everybody has to pay for everything.
And more importantly,
working in games,
no one ever wins a giant-ass panda.
Paulette: Yeah, we don't have that many left.
RIP Mr. Bogle.
Re:
Puhleaase -- no need at all to ban the topic, HOWEVER, when folks like you show up with all 16 posts relating only to WL, then one needs to wonder, especially if all posts are from an advocacy position. So let's at least just do honest full disclosure -- Do you work in the industry, or otherwise benefit from the sale of WL insurance?dk01 wrote:Hi,
If there can't be a discussion on WL then please either change the forums posting guide from "insurance" to "non-whole life insurance". Or in the posting guide state "We do not allow discussions on whole life.".
(Myself: I don't work for ANY related business or otherwise stand to personally gain a dime from any of my posts or positions taken on Bogleheads.)
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
i always like it when people who push whole life like to pretend that isnt allowed to be talked about here just bc we show the truth about it. It is a very very poor investment choice. It is fine as a permanent death benefit if that is what you want or need. There are so many posts here about whole life, its ridiculous to say that posts are discouraged about it.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
1+Puhleaase -- no need at all to ban the topic,
I also hate the whole life shills, but have to say I usually learn something from most of the threads, even if it is just info I can give friends when they stumble upon a friendly "Financial Advisor" who is wanting them to "invest" in a whole life policy.
And, there are a few situations where permanent insurance is needed, and the legitimate insurance agents who post here usually point that out.
Last edited by fishndoc on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" Successful investing involves doing just a few things right, and avoiding serious mistakes." - J. Bogle
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Life insurance is not an investment anyway, no matter how many people want it to be one.dhodson wrote:i always like it when people who push whole life like to pretend that isnt allowed to be talked about here just bc we show the truth about it. It is a very very poor investment choice. It is fine as a permanent death benefit if that is what you want or need. There are so many posts here about whole life, its ridiculous to say that posts are discouraged about it.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
I agree that a lot can be learned from the threads. I'd like to suggest that we archive them in a special "shills archive" section. If nothing else, it is entertaining.
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Get a rope!
While the moments do summersaults into eternity |
Cling to their coattails and beg them to stay - Townes Van Zandt
Re: Be Wary of Whole Life threads
Very impressive that you are knocking them down at that rate. Thanks for the effort.LadyGeek wrote:One other point: If a member has been disciplined by the moderators for being an insurance shill, "insurance shill / spammer" is now being inserted into that member's Location profile.
The Location field is visible in all posts, the member list, and user profile; so you can be aware of this action. This also applies to spammers.
Click on "Members" at the top right, then "Joined" to see the most recent members sorted first.
How do you ID spammers with 0 posts? Maybe they don't count once deleted?