DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

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spreadsheetguy
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DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by spreadsheetguy »

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to see if anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the DIY software from Quicken and Nolo to make a living revokable trust.

My spouse and I have two kids (not yet teens) and a decent 7 digit portfolio in the taxable brokerage accounts and retirement accounts (403b, roth, IRA) and own one primary house and a rental house and live in California.

I don't believe that any of these things are that complicated, nor do I foresee any family drama or people contesting things, so I'm wondering about the use of software to both learn about and do the living trust ourselves. If anyone has experience using this or other DIY software, I'd love to hear about it.

I've already started reading Denis Clifford's Estate Planning Basics (from Nolo press) so it all seems relatively straightforward. It is also a good opportunity to learn so that I can help with my mom's estate when she passes away (presumably in 15-20 years) also quite simple to deal with.

I assume that there will be folks who say you should only use a lawyer to do this, so I'd like to hear the arguments about that as well.

thanks so much
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Lee_WSP
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Yes. Unless you're in California, don't do it.

The actual document is okay, nothing glaringly wrong with it. But it won't do anything the will version won't. And it's extremely easy to mess up the very important transfers that come next.

PS
I am a trusts and estates attorney. My opinion is biased.
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:57 am Yes. Unless you're in California, don't do it.

The actual document is okay, nothing glaringly wrong with it. But it won't do anything the will version won't. And it's extremely easy to news up the very important transfers that come next.

PS
I am a trusts and estates attorney. My opinion is biased.
News up? or "mess up"? I see you corrected it.

I created a living trust to hold Series I bonds only using the Denis Clifford boilerplate template but that's all it will hold. I plan on liquidating those securities first, the beneficiaries are listed and residual beneficiary is my estate. Everything else is covered by a will prepared by qualified counsel.
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spreadsheetguy
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by spreadsheetguy »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:57 am Yes. Unless you're in California, don't do it.
I am in California, so go for it?

Also I'm confused about these statements:
The actual document is okay, nothing glaringly wrong with it. But it won't do anything the will version won't. And it's extremely easy to mess up the very important transfers that come next.
Are you saying I can just use the wills software and not the trust software?
Can you elaborate on what the very important transfers are and how they can get messed up?
PS
I am a trusts and estates attorney. My opinion is biased.
I appreciate you responding with your biased, but experienced opinion. :happy

thanks
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

What he's saying is if you are in California, don't go the "do it yourself route".

From my own perspective - you have a 7 digit net worth with multiple real property in addition to your securities portfolio, you have dependents too. This is not a "simple" estate and depending on your assets you may want to consider building in certain protections for both spouse and kids that the boilerplate trust template will not have. You might think you are saving something now, let's call it $5K, you pass, now the trust is irrevocable, then a problem crops up at settlement or down the road, guess what? You think $3-5K is expensive? It might cost alot more to unwind the problem, if they can be later on.

Read the book, obtain knowledge, but a qualified estates and trust attorney will be well versed in the issues. Its much like going to a surgeon when you need something done, you can save money doing it yourself but is it worth the risk? BTW, I am not an attorney.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by CAsage »

On this site, a DIY investment stronghold, you will get overwhelming advice to see a lawyer or Dire Things Will Occur! I don't believe that, but I'm well in the minority (tech career, not law). For most people, with a simple estate, transferring assets to their mature, well behaved direct heirs should be, and can be, cheap, efficient, and clear. That can be done with a trust (especially in Ca, where I can vouch from painful experience Probate is hellish and expensive) or a will in most cases. I will also note that a good estate plan is not simply the magic spells on a trust or a will - it's the whole planning package. I have seen people create trusts WITH a lawyer, then never fund it or buy property later and not title it correctly, and the heirs are then fleeced by outside executors and lawyers... - so a lawyer cannot prevent stupid incompetence. For your mother, TOD and beneficiary plans backed up with a will (and trust if in CA) is probably perfect. For you.... with extensive property, two young children, the likelihood of greater assets in the future, probable desire to protect those assets from future gold digging exspouses (the kids!).... Yup, you probably need a lawyer - after you read the Nolo books and get your head clear on what you want. One issue is that IRAs (etc) are really messy with trusts.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by miket29 »

Whether you work with a lawyer or do it on your own, there are 2 books I suggest. The first is is the latest edition of "Every Californian's Guide To Estate Planning: Wills, Trust & Everything Else" from Nolo Press. I found it to be pretty comprehensive, but I'm not a lawyer. A second book is "The Living Trust Advisor" by Condon. This book covers much of the same ground but has many stories pointing out problems clients have run into that you might want to think about with regards to if they might apply to you.
I don't believe that any of these things are that complicated, nor do I foresee any family drama or people contesting things
That opinion may change after reading Condon's book :happy

I'm on the bandwagon that says work with a lawyer (after reading books so you understand the general terrain). Maybe it all works fine with the DIY software, maybe it doesn't. In tech we call this appeals to FUD, but I think the peace of mind with a well drafted set of documents outweighs the savings of DIY.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Condons first book was great. The second is utter garbage. I think he either bit off more than he could chew or does not understand trusts that well.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Weathering »

I used a lawyer
Last edited by Weathering on Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bling
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by bling »

if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by WoodSpinner »

spreadsheetguy wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:55 am Hi everyone,
Just wanted to see if anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the DIY software from Quicken and Nolo to make a living revokable trust.

My spouse and I have two kids (not yet teens) and a decent 7 digit portfolio in the taxable brokerage accounts and retirement accounts (403b, roth, IRA) and own one primary house and a rental house and live in California.

I don't believe that any of these things are that complicated, nor do I foresee any family drama or people contesting things, so I'm wondering about the use of software to both learn about and do the living trust ourselves. If anyone has experience using this or other DIY software, I'd love to hear about it.

I've already started reading Denis Clifford's Estate Planning Basics (from Nolo press) so it all seems relatively straightforward. It is also a good opportunity to learn so that I can help with my mom's estate when she passes away (presumably in 15-20 years) also quite simple to deal with.

I assume that there will be folks who say you should only use a lawyer to do this, so I'd like to hear the arguments about that as well.

thanks so much
OP,

I am also in CA and we used NOLO to set up a RLT, pour-over wills, POA, HPOA etc.

I am not a lawyer!

We have a relatively simple situation, read the book, followed advice, and funded the trust appropriately! At least we think so and reviews so far have not turned up any issues.

The most difficult part was re-titling the house and getting all the signatures in-place for the various documents and accounts notarized.

One downside is that now, we need to make a few simple changes to the language of the trust (shifting the successor trustees and the trustee responsible for determining competency (I may be using the wrong term). To do that you need to upgrade to the latest NOLO press and revise the trust — or figure out the right forms to amend it.

That said, we don’t have young kids and that introduces a level of complexity that you need to be sure about.

Make sure your wishes for Guardianship are known and you have some plans for a temporary guardianship if both of you are incapacitated. Not sure if NOLO handles that or not….

Lastly, we do plan to meet with an Estate Planning Attorney this year! It’s the Unkown-unknowns that are worrying me.

WoodSpinner
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by spammagnet »

I found Willmaker to be rather primitive.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Sandtrap »

I used a trust package that ran close to $900.
Here:
https://foretrustsoftware.com/
It was a huge help in formulating exactly what I wanted.

I then took the printout to a reputable law firm for estate planning.

To me, it was well worth the money for the program and templates as a means to understand, learn, and strategize, before going to a law firm. Before that, I went to various legal counsel and I would be asked, "what do you want", or be told "what was best for me". For me, that was not enough to go on.

Seek legal counsel.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by galawdawg »

Do yourself and your family a favor and find a well-recommended and trusted estate planning attorney to handle this for you. It is a small investment to ensure that your wishes are carried out. An experienced attorney is well-versed in the laws of your state and the issues that can arise in handling a decedent's estate.

For many people, particularly those with minor children, sizeable assets and/or children from a prior marriage, a DIY approach to estate planning is, IMO, penny wise and pound foolish. You don't know what you don't know and you don't want your heirs to have to spend many thousands of dollars in legal fees to clean up a problematic estate due to unforeseen issues with DIY estate planning. Most of those issues, while they may be unforeseen by a layperson, are not unforeseeable by an experienced estate planning attorney.

I have regularly seen costly litigation occur when one attempts a DIY approach to estate planning and other important matters (such as divorce and child custody). With your resources, there is no reason to take the risk that your DIY legal work is somehow deficient, the consequences of which would be borne by your wife and children. The loss of a loved one is difficult enough, it shouldn't be compounded by legal issues with the estate when those can be prevented.

I have been an attorney for three decades...and even I pay a very well-qualified estate planning attorney to handle those matters for me. I'd rather have it done right than done cheap. :beer
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by seawolf21 »

I have Willmaker and also had an attorney draft up a will and revocable trust. The output from software and attorney are worded very different.

Will the software will and trust hold up in court? It should but for peace of mind I executed the attorney version.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by MBB_Boy »

bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by bling »

MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am
bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
at a certain point i would say so as well. but it's more for tax and generational planning more so than investments.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by PowderDay9 »

I think WillMaker does a good job for reasonably simple wills. However, its trust software is very limited and trusts usually need to be more complicated than a will.

I'd probably avoid WillMaker for a trust unless it's a very simple trust.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by randomguy »

MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am
bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
If my estate lawyer wanted 40k/year to maintain my will, I would be using software. If a FA would run my portfolio for 5k every decade or so, I might hire one.... Seriously the issue is the FA isn't going to be much different than just holding a a couple of index funds and could be much worse. A legal document that doesn't stand up can result in huge losses.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am
bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
There is no index fund for estate documents other than POA, living will, & MPOA (which are more or less cookie cutter).

You aren’t paying us to draft the document. Any paralegal or software package can help you draft a document. You’re paying us to help you avoid the unintended and unknown consequences along with any complications that arise from your choices.

You only get one shot at it.

That said, not every member of the bar has the same level of knowledge of all of the possible consequences and some lawyers just pump out documents without a lot of tax knowledge.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by spreadsheetguy »

thanks to everyone for their thoughts. It sounds like the consensus is to go with an attorney.

I have a couple of follow on questions.
1) What do people think about using the software to generate the trust and then bringing it to a trust/estate lawyer to look it over and make changes if needed? Do any of the attorneys out there do this sort of thing or would they want to start from scratch? In any case, I think it would be interesting to do a comparison like seawolf21:
seawolf21 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:59 am I have Willmaker and also had an attorney draft up a will and revocable trust. The output from software and attorney are worded very different.

Will the software will and trust hold up in court? It should but for peace of mind I executed the attorney version.
2) My thought is that the next 10-20 years is hard to plan for since the kids are young we have little understanding of what their futures will ultimately hold. If we were to make the trust in 15 years, it will probably look very different than the one we are making now. In part because the kids will be adults and the contingencies on giving them money should be less complicated. As we go to change our trust in the future to account for changing conditions, would a simpler trust be the a good candidate for software? I suppose the software might be much better in a 10-15 years.

thanks again
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by sailaway »

A good attorney will charge you more to re-evaluate a self made document than to just create one from scratch. It will require extra time for them to read through carefully, familiarize themselves with the new to them template, and they still have to put all the time into understanding what you want to make sure the document does that.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

I only take the time to review already existing estate documents. I would much prefer it if you came in with a clean slate as I won't have to basically tear everything down and disabuse you of common misunderstandings.

The software is only one step above intestacy. There are so many options to choose from. You don't know what you don't know. Sure, most of the options will not apply, but you need to have a planning session to figure out what you need and what the options are.

Fore is built for attorneys, but is not particularly robust. It gives a few more options and decent language, but won't help you with the planning.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by tibbitts »

bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Remember that a lot of Bogleheads (not me!) are creating trusts entirely for I-bonds. Paying for the trust would more than completely negate the benefits.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by tibbitts »

CAsage wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:31 am On this site, a DIY investment stronghold, you will get overwhelming advice to see a lawyer or Dire Things Will Occur! I don't believe that, but I'm well in the minority (tech career, not law).
I agree with the observation but just don't see how it's possible to reconcile the two positions. My take is that Bogleheads almost universally overstate the benefits and advisability of d-i-y except for the singular case of wills/trusts/estates.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

OP,
Expanding on my earlier comment, it would be helpful if you came in with a short list of key people. Key persons who you a) want to leave your stuff to, b) want to manage your affairs in case of infirmity, c) manage the financial affairs for your beneficiaries in case they cannot manage it themselves, d) backup beneficiaries and managers.

Other things would be decisions on the taker of last resort (if your line fails, who takes?), funeral arrangements, organ donation, etc etc.

It may be beneficial to read the questions the software asks you, so you have an idea of the questions the lawyer will ask you, but filling it out is probably not helpful.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:37 pm
CAsage wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:31 am On this site, a DIY investment stronghold, you will get overwhelming advice to see a lawyer or Dire Things Will Occur! I don't believe that, but I'm well in the minority (tech career, not law).
I agree with the observation but just don't see how it's possible to reconcile the two positions. My take is that Bogleheads almost universally overstate the benefits and advisability of d-i-y except for the singular case of wills/trusts/estates.
I can't argue with this assessment.

Just look at the contradictory complexity of executing a tax loss harvest without incurring a wash sale. Yet a TLH is talked about as NBD.

Setting up an auto-invest in a mutual fund is easy enough and doesn't require much of any knowledge to get a good result.

That said, the consequences of making an error following the BH way are tiny in comparison to a mistake in an estate plan. So, if I were to try to reconcile the furor for all things DIY vs the advice to use legal help, I'd say it's a difference of the consequences for errors. It's not like the forum advises we set our own bones or stitch our own cuts; both of which are relatively DIY-able.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by wilked »

I did a DIY will, and am fairly heavy on DIY. I did not consider doing a DIY trust - too complex. You say it's not that complex, but the more I learn about it the more I disagree with that opinion.

What I did:

-My company has a legal benefit, can sign up and get access to lawyers for pretty cheap (maybe it was $10-20 / month?). I signed up and immediately contacted a lawyer via that to do a trust / POA / etc. The lawyer is great - you can see the results in a pro product. He did charge $1000 additional to supplement the minimum levels of service for the work-based legal plan, so I am out $1200 overall. Much less than I would be otherwise. I consider it money well spent
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by tibbitts »

Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:48 pm It's not like the forum advises we set our own bones or stitch our own cuts; both of which are relatively DIY-able.
That might be largely because the moderators would step in and declare bone or cut repair to be off-limits medical advice. Interestingly legal advice seems to get a bit more running room than medical advice. I'm not complaining about that because I find the legal advice helpful, and in fairness the legal advice might have some additional overlap into the investing/tax realm.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:56 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:48 pm It's not like the forum advises we set our own bones or stitch our own cuts; both of which are relatively DIY-able.
That might be largely because the moderators would step in and declare bone or cut repair to be off-limits medical advice. Interestingly legal advice seems to get a bit more running room than medical advice. I'm not complaining about that because I find the legal advice helpful, and in fairness the legal advice might have some additional overlap into the investing/tax realm.
You know, you might be right. We'll just never know how far the deep seated DIY ethos extends.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by MBB_Boy »

Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:02 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am
bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
There is no index fund for estate documents other than POA, living will, & MPOA (which are more or less cookie cutter).

You aren’t paying us to draft the document. Any paralegal or software package can help you draft a document. You’re paying us to help you avoid the unintended and unknown consequences along with any complications that arise from your choices.

You only get one shot at it.

That said, not every member of the bar has the same level of knowledge of all of the possible consequences and some lawyers just pump out documents without a lot of tax knowledge.
I feel like a financial planner would give the same spiel, but I get it. Knowledge of estate planning is harder to come by, and the expense model is different. Thanks to you and others who countered
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

MBB_Boy wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:02 am
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:02 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am
bling wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:46 pm if you have enough money to consider a trust you have enough money to pay for a lawyer to get it done right.
Same for financial advisor, right?
There is no index fund for estate documents other than POA, living will, & MPOA (which are more or less cookie cutter).

You aren’t paying us to draft the document. Any paralegal or software package can help you draft a document. You’re paying us to help you avoid the unintended and unknown consequences along with any complications that arise from your choices.

You only get one shot at it.

That said, not every member of the bar has the same level of knowledge of all of the possible consequences and some lawyers just pump out documents without a lot of tax knowledge.
I feel like a financial planner would give the same spiel, but I get it. Knowledge of estate planning is harder to come by, and the expense model is different. Thanks to you and others who countered
Maybe. I mean you are paying the attorney for their knowledge and planning skill. However, you really can’t learn to estate plan yourself without dedicating a significant chunk of your life to the effort.
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spreadsheetguy
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by spreadsheetguy »

thanks, I think this has been a helpful discussion. I definitely have a DIY inclination but it sounds like this is one area I should probably work with a recommended trust and estate lawyer.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by MikeG62 »

spreadsheetguy wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:55 am Hi everyone,
Just wanted to see if anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the DIY software from Quicken and Nolo to make a living revokable trust.

My spouse and I have two kids (not yet teens) and a decent 7 digit portfolio in the taxable brokerage accounts and retirement accounts (403b, roth, IRA) and own one primary house and a rental house and live in California.
IANAL.

By decent 7 digit portfolio I am taking that to mean $5 million +/- (probably more + than -). Once factoring in the houses, I am guessing it's likely an upper 7 figure NW. At that level, I think it's penny wise and pound foolish to try and craft a will on your own. The cost to hire a professional is simply insignificant to your resources. My advice would be to hire a competent estates attorney and make sure you have something that is well thought out and iron clad from a legal perspective.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by engin33r »

How do you know if an estate attorney is competent? How is this different from the financial situation where by the time you have enough information to identify an advisor’s competency, you have enough information to DIY it? Recently I did pay a popular and recommended estate attorney to do our will but he did not seem to be extraordinarily competent and I didn’t leave the process feeling like we nailed it. We have since moved states and now I need to re-do it, but since I can’t confidently assess an attorney’s competence (nor can I assume that any recommendation has been accurately assessed for competence), I am honestly not sure what I’ll end up doing for this next version of our will.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

engin33r wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 am How do you know if an estate attorney is an expert in the field? How is this different from the financial situation where by the time you have enough information to identify an advisor’s competency, you have enough information to DIY it?
I edited your question to reflect what I think you meant to ask as competence is a much lower bar.

A good question on the first part, the second is easier to answer.

There’s no way you’ll be able to master all the intricacies of trusts and estates without at least 1,000 hours of study and that just gets you to competent. Another 1,000 hours of practical study and getting criticism from a mentor who has seen all the problems is essential. It’s like the field of medicine. It’s not the procedure that’s important to know, it’s all the complications and how to deal with them.

I’m probably underestimating the hours requirement above, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that’s what it’d take.

Contrast this to personal finance, and I can give you a plan you can follow extraordinarily quickly in 5 minutes. Give me 30 minutes and I can get you setup to about 90% of veteran BH. Read 5 books and you can basically do it yourself with the aid of the tax experts or research the issue as you need to. The complications for personal finance are basically non existent if you follow the BH philosophy. You cannot under or over perform the market if you buy the whole market. The rest is just setting up automatic investing. It really is that simple. Nothing can go wrong so long as your bar is the market.

So, to answer the first question. I’m not sure I have a good answer for you. I can suss out another lawyers competence in this area, but I also know what pointed questions to ask.

At a minimum they’d understand SLATs, GRATs, GRITs, IDGTs, and other advanced wealth transfer techniques. They may try to differentiate themselves by advertising wealth planning or wealth transfer or charitable giving as opposed to basic estate planning. It probably comes down to the type of clientele they are trying to get. An estate under 1 million in today’s dollars is not going to demand being left in trust (although it’s better, it is not catastrophic if left outright). An estate of 10 million, on the other hand, ought to be left in trust instead of outright.

Another good question may be asking their definition of trust. If they know that a trust isn’t an entity, but a fiduciary relationship whereby the grantor entrusts the trustee with the property for the benefit of beneficiary, then you know they’ve done their homework and know how it works in both theory and practice. (I’m biased on this one, others will probably disagree with me as to the importance of this. Many attorneys go their whole career without understanding this).
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by galawdawg »

Very well put. I wonder if Rick Ferri might consider inviting Bruce Steiner, yourself, or another "expert in the field" to participate in a future Bogleheads podcast to discuss some nuts and bolts of estate planning. Topics like, "Do I need to have an estate plan and if so, why?", "Do I need a will or a trust? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each", "Can and should I do it myself?", "How to Find a Well-Qualified Attorney", and "How to Prepare for your Estate Planning Consultations"...
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by HappyPappy »

We used Nolo to make a revocable trust and reciprocal pour-over wills. After making it, we had an attorney review it, and we had an attorney transfer our house to the trust. Anything else that needed to be moved into the trust I did myself. Neither I nor my spouse has any prior marriages or other children.

Our objective was mainly to provide a plan for the extremely unlikely event both my spouse and I died at the same time. We have no relatives to care for the two kids (under 10) and wanted to name a caretaker and give that person control of the our assets for the benefit of the kids. We own one house, and have a high six figure portfolio. So our situation is going to be less complicated than yours.

My sense is that our relatively simple situation was close to as complicated as you’d want to get with the DIY approach. You could still buy the software and go through the motions to educate yourself. You'll be better situated to judge the competency of the lawyer you hire and better able to articulate your own objectives for the estate planning.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Retired1809 »

Does anyone have an opinion of Suze Orman's will and trust software that PBS stations give out to financial supporters of PBS?

My wife and I met with an attorney four years ago and were sent home with a bill and instructions to decide how we wanted to do with our assets. We couldn't decide what to do.

Two years later, we went back to the same attorney and talked again and were once again sent home with a new bill with instructions to decide what to do with our stuff. We still haven't decided what to do.

I feel like we need an attorney who will advise us what to do with our assets.

And I am seriously ready to just use Suze Orman's software to state what we want to happen to our assets so we can go back later and make changes without ever having to meet with an attorney again.

Maybe we need to find a new attorney?
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by WoodSpinner »

galawdawg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:25 pm Very well put. I wonder if Rick Ferri might consider inviting Bruce Steiner, yourself, or another "expert in the field" to participate in a future Bogleheads podcast to discuss some nuts and bolts of estate planning. Topics like, "Do I need to have an estate plan and if so, why?", "Do I need a will or a trust? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each", "Can and should I do it myself?", "How to Find a Well-Qualified Attorney", and "How to Prepare for your Estate Planning Consultations"...
I like this idea …

Too add on:
- How do you know when a trust is not needed?
- Some way to estimate the complexity of a trust that might be needed?

This is the essence of my Personal struggle.

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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by drzzzzz »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:52 am
engin33r wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 am How do you know if an estate attorney is an expert in the field? How is this different from the financial situation where by the time you have enough information to identify an advisor’s competency, you have enough information to DIY it?
I edited your question to reflect what I think you meant to ask as competence is a much lower bar.

A good question on the first part, the second is easier to answer.

There’s no way you’ll be able to master all the intricacies of trusts and estates without at least 1,000 hours of study and that just gets you to competent. Another 1,000 hours of practical study and getting criticism from a mentor who has seen all the problems is essential. It’s like the field of medicine. It’s not the procedure that’s important to know, it’s all the complications and how to deal with them.

I’m probably underestimating the hours requirement above, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that’s what it’d take.

Contrast this to personal finance, and I can give you a plan you can follow extraordinarily quickly in 5 minutes. Give me 30 minutes and I can get you setup to about 90% of veteran BH. Read 5 books and you can basically do it yourself with the aid of the tax experts or research the issue as you need to. The complications for personal finance are basically non existent if you follow the BH philosophy. You cannot under or over perform the market if you buy the whole market. The rest is just setting up automatic investing. It really is that simple. Nothing can go wrong so long as your bar is the market.

So, to answer the first question. I’m not sure I have a good answer for you. I can suss out another lawyers competence in this area, but I also know what pointed questions to ask.

At a minimum they’d understand SLATs, GRATs, GRITs, IDGTs, and other advanced wealth transfer techniques. They may try to differentiate themselves by advertising wealth planning or wealth transfer or charitable giving as opposed to basic estate planning. It probably comes down to the type of clientele they are trying to get. An estate under 1 million in today’s dollars is not going to demand being left in trust (although it’s better, it is not catastrophic if left outright). An estate of 10 million, on the other hand, ought to be left in trust instead of outright.

Another good question may be asking their definition of trust. If they know that a trust isn’t an entity, but a fiduciary relationship whereby the grantor entrusts the trustee with the property for the benefit of beneficiary, then you know they’ve done their homework and know how it works in both theory and practice. (I’m biased on this one, others will probably disagree with me as to the importance of this. Many attorneys go their whole career without understanding this).
You mention an estate of 10 million ought to be left in trust, do you still make that reccommendation if many of the estate assets are in retirement accounts and transfer outside of the trust process?
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by macheta »

Last year I completed a trust following a book I purchased on Amazon. "Make Your Own Living Trust" was a step by step guide that ended up looking very professional. We asked a lawyer to help setup the trust first and was quoted like 7k which was outside our budget.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by Lee_WSP »

drzzzzz wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:14 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:52 am
engin33r wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 am How do you know if an estate attorney is an expert in the field? How is this different from the financial situation where by the time you have enough information to identify an advisor’s competency, you have enough information to DIY it?
I edited your question to reflect what I think you meant to ask as competence is a much lower bar.

A good question on the first part, the second is easier to answer.

There’s no way you’ll be able to master all the intricacies of trusts and estates without at least 1,000 hours of study and that just gets you to competent. Another 1,000 hours of practical study and getting criticism from a mentor who has seen all the problems is essential. It’s like the field of medicine. It’s not the procedure that’s important to know, it’s all the complications and how to deal with them.

I’m probably underestimating the hours requirement above, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that’s what it’d take.

Contrast this to personal finance, and I can give you a plan you can follow extraordinarily quickly in 5 minutes. Give me 30 minutes and I can get you setup to about 90% of veteran BH. Read 5 books and you can basically do it yourself with the aid of the tax experts or research the issue as you need to. The complications for personal finance are basically non existent if you follow the BH philosophy. You cannot under or over perform the market if you buy the whole market. The rest is just setting up automatic investing. It really is that simple. Nothing can go wrong so long as your bar is the market.

So, to answer the first question. I’m not sure I have a good answer for you. I can suss out another lawyers competence in this area, but I also know what pointed questions to ask.

At a minimum they’d understand SLATs, GRATs, GRITs, IDGTs, and other advanced wealth transfer techniques. They may try to differentiate themselves by advertising wealth planning or wealth transfer or charitable giving as opposed to basic estate planning. It probably comes down to the type of clientele they are trying to get. An estate under 1 million in today’s dollars is not going to demand being left in trust (although it’s better, it is not catastrophic if left outright). An estate of 10 million, on the other hand, ought to be left in trust instead of outright.

Another good question may be asking their definition of trust. If they know that a trust isn’t an entity, but a fiduciary relationship whereby the grantor entrusts the trustee with the property for the benefit of beneficiary, then you know they’ve done their homework and know how it works in both theory and practice. (I’m biased on this one, others will probably disagree with me as to the importance of this. Many attorneys go their whole career without understanding this).
You mention an estate of 10 million ought to be left in trust, do you still make that reccommendation if many of the estate assets are in retirement accounts and transfer outside of the trust process?
Do you truly believe such a number is possible in real dollars? The most I’ve seen is 6 million for a couple in 401k’s.

Either way, yes. 11 million is the exemption threshold, ask me again in 2026.
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Re: DIY Trust software - do you have experience with Nolo/Quicken Willmaker and Trust or other software?

Post by bsteiner »

spreadsheetguy wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:55 am Just wanted to see if anyone had any experience with or thoughts about the DIY software from Quicken and Nolo to make a living revokable trust.

My spouse and I have two kids (not yet teens) and a decent 7 digit portfolio in the taxable brokerage accounts and retirement accounts (403b, roth, IRA) and own one primary house and a rental house and live in California.
...
A nationally prominent trusts and estates lawyer, now retired, prepared a Will for himself on LegalZoom (not to sign it, just to see how it worked). He said it worked well, though it didn't allow all of the choices he would have wanted.

Of course, he knew what choices to select for his situation.

Since you're in California, you would probably do it in the form of a revocable trust, but the dispositive provisions would be the same as if they were in a Will.

Wealth is much more unevenly distributed than income. Since you're relatively young and you already have substantial assets, the cost of a good trusts and estates lawyer would be much smaller in relation to your assets than the cost of a less expensive lawyer would be in relation to the assets of someone with a much smaller estate.
CAsage wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:31 am ... For your mother, TOD and beneficiary plans backed up with a will (and trust if in CA) is probably perfect. ...
The original poster will probably have a taxable estate. If his/her mother leaves assets to him/her via TOD, that will throw those assets into his/her estate for estate tax purposes. If his/her mother provides for him/her in trust (under her Will, or under a revocable trust if she's in California) rather than outright, to keep his/her inheritance out of his/her estate (and to protect it against his/her creditors and spouses).
seawolf21 wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:59 am I have Willmaker and also had an attorney draft up a will and revocable trust. The output from software and attorney are worded very different.

Will the software will and trust hold up in court? It should but for peace of mind I executed the attorney version.
It should. However, the more important issue is whether the dispositive provisions are appropriate for the situation.
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:02 am ...
You aren’t paying us to draft the document. Any paralegal or software package can help you draft a document. You’re paying us to help you avoid the unintended and unknown consequences along with any complications that arise from your choices.

You only get one shot at it.

That said, not every member of the bar has the same level of knowledge of all of the possible consequences and some lawyers just pump out documents without a lot of tax knowledge.
Agreed.
spreadsheetguy wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:41 am ...
What do people think about using the software to generate the trust and then bringing it to a trust/estate lawyer to look it over and make changes if needed? Do any of the attorneys out there do this sort of thing or would they want to start from scratch? ...
sailaway wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:43 am A good attorney will charge you more to re-evaluate a self made document than to just create one from scratch. It will require extra time for them to read through carefully, familiarize themselves with the new to them template, and they still have to put all the time into understanding what you want to make sure the document does that.
I had to do this once. The girlfriend of a substantial client was a lawyer though not a trusts and estates lawyer, and prepared a Will for one of her clients. Our client asked if I would look at it for her. Since he was a substantial client, I had to do it as a courtesy. It took several times as much time to look at it and tell her what changes were needed than it would have taken to have prepared it.
Lee_WSP wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:24 pm I only take the time to review already existing estate documents. I would much prefer it if you came in with a clean slate as I won't have to basically tear everything down and disabuse you of common misunderstandings.

The software is only one step above intestacy. There are so many options to choose from. You don't know what you don't know. Sure, most of the options will not apply, but you need to have a planning session to figure out what you need and what the options are.

Fore is built for attorneys, but is not particularly robust. It gives a few more options and decent language, but won't help you with the planning.
The link to Fore also listed Lawgic and Interactive, both of which are reputable. Of course, someone who's not a trusts and estates lawyer might not know which choices are appropriate for a given situation.
wilked wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:50 pm I did a DIY will, and am fairly heavy on DIY. I did not consider doing a DIY trust - too complex. You say it's not that complex, but the more I learn about it the more I disagree with that opinion.

What I did:

-My company has a legal benefit, can sign up and get access to lawyers for pretty cheap (maybe it was $10-20 / month?). I signed up and immediately contacted a lawyer via that to do a trust / POA / etc. The lawyer is great - you can see the results in a pro product. He did charge $1000 additional to supplement the minimum levels of service for the work-based legal plan, so I am out $1200 overall. Much less than I would be otherwise. I consider it money well spent.
Since wealth is more unevenly distributed than income, that may be sufficient for most people, though it may not be sufficient for the original poster given his/her level of assets.

Depending on the situation, that might not be sufficient for someone with a small estate. We were involved in an estate where the Will was prepared through a plan. The surviving spouse's estate was about $1.5 million. Her Will left her estate to her two children equally, and named both of them as executors. The problems were that one child had a taxable estate (she disclaimed most of her share), the other child had mental illness (so her share should have been in trust), and the two of them didn't speak to each other (so they needed to have separate counsel). Needless to say, the cost of the estate administration was many times more than if the decedent had gone to a conventional trusts and estates lawyer even if her Will would have cost several times more than the figure mentioned above.
Lee_WSP wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:42 am ... you are paying the attorney for their knowledge and planning skill. However, you really can’t learn to estate plan yourself without dedicating a significant chunk of your life to the effort.
Correct.
engin33r wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:11 am How do you know if an estate attorney is competent? How is this different from the financial situation where by the time you have enough information to identify an advisor’s competency, you have enough information to DIY it? Recently I did pay a popular and recommended estate attorney to do our will but he did not seem to be extraordinarily competent and I didn’t leave the process feeling like we nailed it. We have since moved states and now I need to re-do it, but since I can’t confidently assess an attorney’s competence (nor can I assume that any recommendation has been accurately assessed for competence), I am honestly not sure what I’ll end up doing for this next version of our will.
Good point. It's not always easy. The best you can do is ask people you think would know, and then when you get some names, check their bios and their firms' websites to see who's likely to be a good fit.
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:52 am ...
There’s no way you’ll be able to master all the intricacies of trusts and estates without at least 1,000 hours of study and that just gets you to competent. Another 1,000 hours of practical study and getting criticism from a mentor who has seen all the problems is essential. It’s like the field of medicine. It’s not the procedure that’s important to know, it’s all the complications and how to deal with them.

I’m probably underestimating the hours requirement above, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that’s what it’d take.
...
I agree that you're substantially underestimating the time required. It's probably more like 10,000 hours (5 to 7 years), and even at that point the lawyer will still generally be working under a more senior lawyer who will usually be responsible for the matters.

Using your analogy to doctors, they do substantial additional training after medical school before they're responsible for patients.
Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:44 pm
drzzzzz wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:14 pm ...
You mention an estate of 10 million ought to be left in trust, do you still make that reccommendation if many of the estate assets are in retirement accounts and transfer outside of the trust process?
Do you truly believe such a number is possible in real dollars? The most I’ve seen is 6 million for a couple in 401k’s.
...
I've seen many people with retirement benefits substantially greater than $6 million.
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