King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Post Reply
Topic Author
Mr. Rumples
Posts: 2978
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:16 am

King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Mr. Rumples »

In the new biography of King George III - The Last King of America - the author points out that King George watched himself devolve into madness. While my prognosis is not as bad, I realize that my mental ability is declining.

My documents had my nephew and niece to handle my investments, bill paying, POA stuff and the like, but two recent events/conversations have thrown that out the window for now. My nephew needs $15,000 which I am not lending him (he understood the reasons); my niece gets very upset when we discuss my going to the other side of the ground and still doesn't know the basics of investing.

Thus, whom to turn to for both handling investments and bill paying. I am considering Fidelity and similar entities and paying the fees, but who else? I am waiting for a call back from the attorney (specialty elder law), but any other ideas?
Last edited by Mr. Rumples on Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
"History is the memory of time, the life of the dead and the happiness of the living." Captain John Smith 1580-1631
User avatar
simplesimon
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing

Post by simplesimon »

I have it currently set up as Vanguard + attorney.
jebmke
Posts: 25474
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Delmarva Peninsula

Re: King George III, myself and investing

Post by jebmke »

This is a common issue and I don’t have a complete answer. This could be an issue for one or both of us (me and spouse) eventually. Part of the solution is to make sure that every process, investments etc have been simplified as much as possible such that it is not onerous for whoever takes it on. This would also include documenting as much as you can how the process works and where to turn to make them work.

It also may not be just one place. For example, while I do our taxes each year, I have already identified for my spouse where she should go (local firm) when I am either gone or unable to do them.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95686
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (Power of Attorney). I also clarified the thread title.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Topic Author
Mr. Rumples
Posts: 2978
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:16 am

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Mr. Rumples »

I just gag almost when I have to pay Fido a % fee...the bill paying service I found (part of a larger group that also provides aspects of elder in home care) charges $100 a month.
"History is the memory of time, the life of the dead and the happiness of the living." Captain John Smith 1580-1631
User avatar
simplesimon
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by simplesimon »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:33 am I just gag almost when I have to pay Fido a % fee...the bill paying service I found (part of a larger group that also provides aspects of elder in home care) charges $100 a month.
Any asset manager is going to charge a %AUM fee even if it's a small one...Fido and Vanguard's costs are reasonable compared to most.
neowiser
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:32 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by neowiser »

Someone in my condo association is essentially unable to manage his affairs though he is able to live somewhat independently. He has a professional fiduciary who manages all finances for him. At the time we set up a trust the attorney stated that her firm works with fiduciaries and she suggested we specify that an attorney at the firm select a fiduciary should the need arise. We haven't done that yet, but it is something we will consider eventually. If you have a corporate trustee as successor trustee they probably also designate a fiduciary if you meet the criteria to no longer act as your own trustee. I don't think most brokerage or bank trust departments meddle in bill paying etc., they will outsource it to a fiduciary who hopefully has lower fees than attorneys and trust officers.
Katietsu
Posts: 7676
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:48 am

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Katietsu »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:23 am My nephew needs $15,000 which I am not lending him (he understood the reasons); my niece gets very upset when we discuss my going to the other side of the ground and still doesn't know the basics of investing.

Thus, whom to turn to for both handling investments and bill paying. I am considering Fidelity and similar entities and paying the fees, but who else? I am waiting for a call back from the attorney (specialty elder law), but any other ideas?
Not wanting to talk about death is not particularly unusual. It sounds like she is honest with her feelings instead of making a joke or changing the topic like some of us. Sounds like she cares about you.

Are you just concerned about her ability to invest or are you also concerned about her ability to be your POA otherwise? Paying just for investment management is an easier problem to solve. Even if you arranged for professionals to do it all, it would be best if you had a person to check up on things.
User avatar
Miriam2
Posts: 4387
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:51 am

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Miriam2 »

neowiser wrote: Someone in my condo association is essentially unable to manage his affairs though he is able to live somewhat independently. He has a professional fiduciary who manages all finances for him. At the time we set up a trust the attorney stated that her firm works with fiduciaries and she suggested we specify that an attorney at the firm select a fiduciary should the need arise. We haven't done that yet, but it is something we will consider eventually. If you have a corporate trustee as successor trustee they probably also designate a fiduciary if you meet the criteria to no longer act as your own trustee. I don't think most brokerage or bank trust departments meddle in bill paying etc., they will outsource it to a fiduciary who hopefully has lower fees than attorneys and trust officers.
What do you mean by "fiduciary?" Do you mean a financial advisor who is a fiduciary (perhaps as opposed to a financial advisor who is less fiduciary and more salesman)?
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by willthrill81 »

This is a really sticky wicket for many. Developing a strong, ongoing relationship with a CPA who could (1) have POA and (2) is legally required to act as a fiduciary might be a possibility.
The Sensible Steward
delamer
Posts: 17453
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by delamer »

Mt mother’s investments were managed by a local bank’s trust department (AUM of roughly 0.8%) which also did her tax retutn each year for $300.

It also took over bill-paying for the last several months of her life for no additional fee. She and my father had a multi-decade relationship with the bank and the trust officers though.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
increment
Posts: 1735
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:20 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by increment »

Miriam2 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:16 pm
neowiser wrote: He has a professional fiduciary who manages all finances for him
What do you mean by "fiduciary?" Do you mean a financial advisor who is a fiduciary (perhaps as opposed to a financial advisor who is less fiduciary and more salesman)?
There seem to exist firms whose main service is doing fiduciary work: trusteeship, conservatorship, power of attorney, executor. Perhaps their existence varies state by state. I don't know anything about how their work plays out in practice.
User avatar
Miriam2
Posts: 4387
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:51 am

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Miriam2 »

increment wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:27 pm
Miriam2 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:16 pm
neowiser wrote: He has a professional fiduciary who manages all finances for him
What do you mean by "fiduciary?" Do you mean a financial advisor who is a fiduciary (perhaps as opposed to a financial advisor who is less fiduciary and more salesman)?
There seem to exist firms whose main service is doing fiduciary work: trusteeship, conservatorship, power of attorney, executor. Perhaps their existence varies state by state. I don't know anything about how their work plays out in practice.
Thank you! Perhaps a good Q for Gill and bsteiner :D
smectym
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by smectym »

In general, and not commenting on the specific situation of OP or others on this thread, my intuition is that if an investor is still lucid enough to be concerned about the risks of cognitive decline, that investor is still competent to manage a portfolio (even if that means making making an executive decision such as hiring, say, Vanguard Personal Advisors—a decision perfectly competent and lucid investors of all ages make every day) and doesn’t need any special fiduciary structure beyond that.

And most woeful financial decisions older investors make may be unrelated to cognitive decline. Loneliness may be a bigger threat: people with money, but a dearth of attachments, are often lured into giving unseemly amounts to false “friends’ or feigned romantic partners. Or, people with drinking or other substance abuse problems can do frightening things to the portfolio at 3:10 AM that they may not even remember when waking up at 4 pm the next day.

The model of the emotionally healthy, sober and successful Boglehead investor, surrounded by friends and loved ones, rationally electing to relinquish control of the assets he built over a lifetime because of some recent “troubling” pattern of memory lapses, or perhaps a (readily conferred) diagnosis of “early” or “pre-“ dementia, seems implausible to me.

Of course some aged people decline mentally. Others don’t, or not till much later. Meanwhile, others at age 25 are making preposterous and catastrophic portfolio (and other life-altering) decisions every day, without the “cognitive decline” label ever occurring to anyone involved.

It’s a complicated and sensitive topic, and I’m no medical guy. But I suggest caution in slapping a “cognitively declined” label on anyone merely because of X age + Y behavior, when Y could have multiple potential causes unrelated to cognitive issues.
neowiser
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:32 pm

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by neowiser »

Miriam2 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:16 pm
neowiser wrote: Someone in my condo association is essentially unable to manage his affairs though he is able to live somewhat independently. He has a professional fiduciary who manages all finances for him. At the time we set up a trust the attorney stated that her firm works with fiduciaries and she suggested we specify that an attorney at the firm select a fiduciary should the need arise. We haven't done that yet, but it is something we will consider eventually. If you have a corporate trustee as successor trustee they probably also designate a fiduciary if you meet the criteria to no longer act as your own trustee. I don't think most brokerage or bank trust departments meddle in bill paying etc., they will outsource it to a fiduciary who hopefully has lower fees than attorneys and trust officers.
What do you mean by "fiduciary?" Do you mean a financial advisor who is a fiduciary (perhaps as opposed to a financial advisor who is less fiduciary and more salesman)?
Here is a description of fiduciary services from the California Fiduciary Association:
https://pfac-pro.org/find-a-fiduciary/r ... fiduciary/
Fiduciary Services May Include:

Trustee
Guardian
Estate Executor
Daily Bill Paying and Money Management
Healthcare Representation
Agent under a Power of Attorney
Executor for senior with no spouse or family
Conservator for those who are mentally or physically incapacitated
There may be many other roles a fiduciary can fulfill.
Often a fiduciary will work with a financial advisor and trustee, but they can also provide those services.
User avatar
Lee_WSP
Posts: 10401
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:15 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: King George III, myself and investing [Who can I designate as POA?]

Post by Lee_WSP »

A professional fiduciary or corporate trustee.
Post Reply