The great FIRE resignation?
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Retired 2 weeks ago 1.5 years earlier than planned. COVID burnout working as a healthcare worker was the contributing factor. My employer department would not allow me to work part-time or per diem so I gave them my resignation letter. I have lived a simple frugal life and invested wisely and paid off debt. My boss and his wife makes 3x my salary and thought I won the lottery.
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I was already working from home prior to the pandemic, so it did not change my plans at all. My schedule for retirement remains the same.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I FIRED'd last year due to burnout and the fact that a colleague was retiring which would create a significant increase in my already overwhelming workload. I probably would have soldiered on for another year or two if he didn't retire but looking back I have no regrets whatsoever. The extra money would have been nice but it wouldn't be worth it. They are still trying to fill both of our positions 8 months later so I would still be struggling to manage the load with no end in sight and I would get to add the privilege of training the new guy on top of everything else if they ever find one. No thank you.
The fool, with all his other faults, has this also - he is always getting ready to live. - Seneca Epistles < c. 65AD
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I took a nearly 5 month unpaid sabbatical from my job at a midsize media/tech consulting firm in 2018. I was burned out after working for months on brutally understaffed project with unrealistic requirements and deadlines. The company was about to embark on an expansion of the project and had learned no real lesson from the first go around, so I said "nope". The sabbatical policy was brand new and I technically didn't quite qualify, but made my case and they let me go.
I volunteered as an English teacher in public schools in Chile for roughly 4 of those months, then spent a few weeks in Colombia. It was a great experience, and reminded me how it was very possible to enjoy a totally different, much simpler, and less expensive lifestyle.
When I came back, the project I had missed when I was gone had gone as poorly as I expected. I was refreshed, re-motivated, and got promoted after a few months. You could say the sabbatical cost me tens of thousands of dollars in lost wages, but I don't think I would have been able to stick out the job (or industry) much longer if I didn't have the break, so it may very well have saved me much more.
I think my current employer does offer some kind of sabbatical as well, but you need a much longer tenure. I'll likely have FIRE'd before I'm eligible. It's also much harder to take a meaningful break away from the ordinary now with a young child.
I volunteered as an English teacher in public schools in Chile for roughly 4 of those months, then spent a few weeks in Colombia. It was a great experience, and reminded me how it was very possible to enjoy a totally different, much simpler, and less expensive lifestyle.
When I came back, the project I had missed when I was gone had gone as poorly as I expected. I was refreshed, re-motivated, and got promoted after a few months. You could say the sabbatical cost me tens of thousands of dollars in lost wages, but I don't think I would have been able to stick out the job (or industry) much longer if I didn't have the break, so it may very well have saved me much more.
I think my current employer does offer some kind of sabbatical as well, but you need a much longer tenure. I'll likely have FIRE'd before I'm eligible. It's also much harder to take a meaningful break away from the ordinary now with a young child.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." - John Bogle |
"If I am what I have and if what I have is lost, who then am I?" - Erich Fromm
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I'm not pushing up my FIRE schedule because of the covid blues, but I've definitely noticed myself "checking out" at work. All sense of ambition or anxiety about my job is gone.
I'm 1-4 years away from retirement anyway.
I'm 1-4 years away from retirement anyway.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I quit last month at 50.5.
I might work part time.
I might work full time again.
I might take temporary jobs.
Not sure. I am going to mull it over for a while.
Wife is not working either.
Job was tech support for a big tech company. The product was buggy, cases were very hard and never ending. I just had enough.
Have a few years of cash, arrange health coverage. Life will go on.
I might work part time.
I might work full time again.
I might take temporary jobs.
Not sure. I am going to mull it over for a while.
Wife is not working either.
Job was tech support for a big tech company. The product was buggy, cases were very hard and never ending. I just had enough.
Have a few years of cash, arrange health coverage. Life will go on.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Unexpectedly, I find myself part of this trend. I utilized the last 2 years for doing a fair amount of financial engineering and cleaned up many loose ends. I also went half-time from the start of this year with the intention to wrap up in the next few months. I am old enough to retire, but not looking to do so. What is different this time is that I am leaving my workplace without a well-defined plan for the future.
Last edited by nss20 on Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
First company I worked for in the 80's (Tandem Computers), had 6 weeks sabbaticals every four years, and you were required to take them, all six weeks contagiously. You actually had to have senior VP level approval to postpone for more than a year.hfj wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:57 pm Back in the 90's, besides Intel, Silicon Graphics also had a sabbatical program, which if I remember correctly was 6 weeks paid after 4 years. Unfortunately I left to a startup shortly before being sabbatical eligible; while financially it worked out, I still have some small regrets about that. Colleagues would go to Antarctica, spend a month in Europe/Asia, things like that on sabbatical. My Intel friend knows people who were there long enough for 3 (8 weeks paid every 7 years, I think) sabbaticals.
Personally, I've been contemplating early retirement or at least switching to only contract work part of the year. The pandemic has probably delayed those plans a little because the WFH has allowed me to mostly avoid the open office (which I personally detest) and the complications with international travel.
My current company has "unlimited" vacation. Prior to that we had 3-5 weeks vacation a year based on years employed, and you'd lose vacation at 200 hours if you didn't take it, which was a valid inducement to actually take vacation. With "unlimited" vacation I'm probably taking the least amount of vacation in my career, partly because no one is making me take it, and partly because it just doesn't seem to be the norm now (and legitimately I have no where to go during the pandemic, but also I'm not taking Fridays off with the "I'm at 200 hours" excuse).
I'm not sure the "great resignation" is real or hype, but I know if I could stop work right now I would, my wife and are cutting back on expenses and accelerating my retirement to early next year, at least a year ahead of what I was thinking a few years ago.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I work in tech and took a six week leave once, when I was young and single. Came back with no issues. I would have been fine looking for another job if I had to, though.visualguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:57 pmI don't think most tech companies ever had this. It is possible to take a leave of absence, but nothing is guaranteed at the end of it, and it's very rare for anyone to go on such a leave.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:43 pmHmmm. Not sure I’d agree. I don’t know many people who have access to sabbaticals (tech companies in the Bay Area) or have taken them. I think this benefit has actually gone away at most tech companies. Intel May be the one I know that still has it?randomguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:38 pmTech companies have been offering sabbaticals and the like since the 90s. The reality is not much of the workforce is in demand enough for companies to pander to them. And not enough of the population has the money to just stop working at 45. Don't let the internet popularity of a movement make something bigger than it is. It is easy for a couple thousand people to create a echo chamber...Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm
I feel like companies will be forced to offer this kind of benefit once the big firms (Facebook, Google etc) make this a part of their HR benefits.
Others normally follow their lead.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Years ago (at least 15), at a prior employer, I was doing a project that required me to work with a team in Europe. The first time I went over there, my local contact was telling me how horrible their most recent "holiday" (aka vacation) was as it was only 2 weeks long, and simply not enough time to decompress and enjoy themselves. They went on to say that it was OK, at they had a 3 week "holiday" just a few more weeks away.GP813 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:39 pm The American worker has been overworked for decades. The pandemic caused a lot of existential thinking among people. When faced with your own mortality or a stark outline of what work/life balance is supposed to be, many have changed their thinking and priorities. You see it reflected in the surveys and polls of people saying they'd take less money to work from home or even leave a good paying job to look for one with a more flexible work/life balance.
They were shocked to learn that most people in America only get 2-3 weeks (if they are lucky), and many struggle to use those weeks. And only once in my entire life (at that point at least) had I ever been on a two week vacation, and never a 3 or more week vacation...
- AnnetteLouisan
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Yes I had to beg my European friends to stop going on about their super long vacations. I’m happy for them but at a certain point it’s hard to hear. Uh-oh, is this another strike against ex-US? Lol.SnowBog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:51 pmYears ago (at least 15), at a prior employer, I was doing a project that required me to work with a team in Europe. The first time I went over there, my local contact was telling me how horrible their most recent "holiday" (aka vacation) was as it was only 2 weeks long, and simply not enough time to decompress and enjoy themselves. They went on to say that it was OK, at they had a 3 week "holiday" just a few more weeks away.GP813 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:39 pm The American worker has been overworked for decades. The pandemic caused a lot of existential thinking among people. When faced with your own mortality or a stark outline of what work/life balance is supposed to be, many have changed their thinking and priorities. You see it reflected in the surveys and polls of people saying they'd take less money to work from home or even leave a good paying job to look for one with a more flexible work/life balance.
They were shocked to learn that most people in America only get 2-3 weeks (if they are lucky), and many struggle to use those weeks. And only once in my entire life (at that point at least) had I ever been on a two week vacation, and never a 3 or more week vacation...
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
This was pre-COVID, but a few years ago I took a 2-month summer sabbatical from my Big Tech job. I was burned out from a project that turned into a trainwreck, combined with a general feeling that our team was underappreciated and perpetually understaffed. I spent about half my sabbatical traveling with my young kids, and the other half split among "staycation" with the kids, taking care of stuff around the house, and learning a new work-related skill.
I really enjoyed the sabbatical, but by the end I was beginning to lose motivation to be productive. Furthermore, when I started back at work, pretty much all of my old stress and unhappiness came back, because I hadn't solved the underlying problems -- if I am coming back to the same situation, why would I expect a different outcome? It took me a few more years, but I switched companies about a year ago and am much happier in the new role which is a much better fit for me.
I really enjoyed the sabbatical, but by the end I was beginning to lose motivation to be productive. Furthermore, when I started back at work, pretty much all of my old stress and unhappiness came back, because I hadn't solved the underlying problems -- if I am coming back to the same situation, why would I expect a different outcome? It took me a few more years, but I switched companies about a year ago and am much happier in the new role which is a much better fit for me.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
The Pandemic got me to retire and then something happened.......
March 2020 started WFH..... by July/August 2020 Megacorp wanted all "leaders" to return to the office. It was basically driving 40 minutes to work to wear a mask into the office. I would then sit in my office with the door closed (so I could not wear my mask). I then spent the day in my office with the door closed on zoom meetings. I thought " this is BS, I could do this from home"
I had achieved FIRE ability 4 years prior. I decided to retire at 56. this was 11 months short of my goal.
I had a buddy that was a CEO call me the same day I retired and offer me a job (as a project manager) to work for "one more year".
I had the time of my life and worked for 17 months more. I retire in 3 weeks at 58.. Torn between loving work and a bucket list of things to do while i have the strength and energy to do them..
No turning back and looking forward to it.
March 2020 started WFH..... by July/August 2020 Megacorp wanted all "leaders" to return to the office. It was basically driving 40 minutes to work to wear a mask into the office. I would then sit in my office with the door closed (so I could not wear my mask). I then spent the day in my office with the door closed on zoom meetings. I thought " this is BS, I could do this from home"
I had achieved FIRE ability 4 years prior. I decided to retire at 56. this was 11 months short of my goal.
I had a buddy that was a CEO call me the same day I retired and offer me a job (as a project manager) to work for "one more year".
I had the time of my life and worked for 17 months more. I retire in 3 weeks at 58.. Torn between loving work and a bucket list of things to do while i have the strength and energy to do them..
No turning back and looking forward to it.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Same here!novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm i find there is a negative correlation between my net worth, and my interest in my corporate job.
...
if i get stressed about something at work, used to plow right through it. recently, my thought process is something a long the lines of this:
“... my labor is slowly becoming less and less valuable to my life every year.”
i can’t seem to escape this thought process, and i can’t help but feel it’s not healthy, but I somehow can’t not think it… because I think it’s true?
I feel this is simultaneously encouraging and (at least for me) a trap.
On the positive side, it's great to see that years of living below our means and saving are having the desired result. Likewise, it's great to know that we have "options".
Oddly, and conversely (at least for me), the "trap" is when I'm close enough to see the finish line, not wanting/willing to do much to disrupt what's working, which means I'm limiting my own options.
I acknowledge this is in conflict!
But my thinking is we are within 2-3 years of making our numbers work at the current pace. And my job has a large upside potential (unlikely to see this year), which could shave off 1+ years when it comes in (so theoretically 1-2 years away). I'm assuming it would take 6+ months of concentrated effort finding a new employer with comparable pay, benefits, flexibility (aka largely WFH even before pandemic), alignment to things I know/care about, etc. Meaning I could potentially work the new job for as little a 6 - 18 months before we'd have "enough". I know my heart wouldn't be in it the same for starting over for just a few months...
Additionally, while my job is most definitely not "secure", I've been around long enough I should get a decent severance package should I be laid off. Depending on the timing and specifics, that might actually get me to "enough".
So I can't help but think I'll keep riding this train until they throw me off, it gets so uncomfortable that I'm unwilling to ride, or until we have enough I don't need to ride at all anymore.
One additional complication for me is our "plan" was to work another 5-7 years, retiring when our child is in college. Financially, we are seemingly ahead of plan. But I'm not sure we are as ready non-financially...
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Linear Technology (now part of Analog Devices) and Arrow Electronics (I believe the largest electronic distributor in the US) both had programs where employees were given 6 weeks off every 6 years of full time work.visualguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:57 pmI don't think most tech companies ever had this. It is possible to take a leave of absence, but nothing is guaranteed at the end of it, and it's very rare for anyone to go on such a leave.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:43 pmHmmm. Not sure I’d agree. I don’t know many people who have access to sabbaticals (tech companies in the Bay Area) or have taken them. I think this benefit has actually gone away at most tech companies. Intel May be the one I know that still has it?randomguy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:38 pmTech companies have been offering sabbaticals and the like since the 90s. The reality is not much of the workforce is in demand enough for companies to pander to them. And not enough of the population has the money to just stop working at 45. Don't let the internet popularity of a movement make something bigger than it is. It is easy for a couple thousand people to create a echo chamber...Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm
I feel like companies will be forced to offer this kind of benefit once the big firms (Facebook, Google etc) make this a part of their HR benefits.
Others normally follow their lead.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
People either can afford to retire or they can't. I don't think being FIRE is something you chose to do without some measure of planning. I am skeptical of media reports of sudden retirements. There were people who could afford retirement and actually did retire due to the pandemic but I don't think that's "millions" of people.
Work life balance is real but sadly not everyone can afford to stop earning a wage. Health insurance pre-Medicare age was a barrier for some but with the increased ACA subsidy maybe folks were able to downsize enough to take on lesser paying jobs AND maintain insurance at a reasonable cost. Again I don't think "millions" of people did that. I know a married couple who now make 75% of their pre-pandemic wage, both working part time. Previously their biggest fear was losing employer health insurance but now they have ACA plan.
It seems like there's a lot of job movement, meaning quitting a bad job and finding a new job but I am doubtful about outright FIRE resignation. Who can afford to quit if they are not FIRE. FIRE doesn't happen over a pandemic even if it's 2 years.
The stories I find most joyful are the ones where people left a bad employer/job and found better working conditions/wages. The silver lining of the pandemic - I hope - is that workers have more choice, feel more empowered to leave jobs that don't give them some gratification. Quitting a job is a privilege and I hope it will be one where people from all socio-economic levels can enjoy.
Work life balance is real but sadly not everyone can afford to stop earning a wage. Health insurance pre-Medicare age was a barrier for some but with the increased ACA subsidy maybe folks were able to downsize enough to take on lesser paying jobs AND maintain insurance at a reasonable cost. Again I don't think "millions" of people did that. I know a married couple who now make 75% of their pre-pandemic wage, both working part time. Previously their biggest fear was losing employer health insurance but now they have ACA plan.
It seems like there's a lot of job movement, meaning quitting a bad job and finding a new job but I am doubtful about outright FIRE resignation. Who can afford to quit if they are not FIRE. FIRE doesn't happen over a pandemic even if it's 2 years.
The stories I find most joyful are the ones where people left a bad employer/job and found better working conditions/wages. The silver lining of the pandemic - I hope - is that workers have more choice, feel more empowered to leave jobs that don't give them some gratification. Quitting a job is a privilege and I hope it will be one where people from all socio-economic levels can enjoy.
Last edited by JackBoglereader21 on Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- ClevrChico
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Being able to WFH has made me table any ER plans.
I'm probably underpaid for tech, I learned raises won't keep up with inflation this year, but WLB is really great. I've been getting my work done, taking long lunches, heading out an hour early, and doing fun stuff with the family when the weather is nice. Life is pretty good.
I'm probably underpaid for tech, I learned raises won't keep up with inflation this year, but WLB is really great. I've been getting my work done, taking long lunches, heading out an hour early, and doing fun stuff with the family when the weather is nice. Life is pretty good.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
i experience this exact conflict on a regular basis. we are further out from our number than you are, but it's comforting to know someone else is also going through it, so i don't feel like i'm crazy. i imagine there are many others on this board who are dealing with the same issue.SnowBog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:17 pmSame here!novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm i find there is a negative correlation between my net worth, and my interest in my corporate job.
...
if i get stressed about something at work, used to plow right through it. recently, my thought process is something a long the lines of this:
“... my labor is slowly becoming less and less valuable to my life every year.”
i can’t seem to escape this thought process, and i can’t help but feel it’s not healthy, but I somehow can’t not think it… because I think it’s true?
I feel this is simultaneously encouraging and (at least for me) a trap.
On the positive side, it's great to see that years of living below our means and saving are having the desired result. Likewise, it's great to know that we have "options".
Oddly, and conversely (at least for me), the "trap" is when I'm close enough to see the finish line, not wanting/willing to do much to disrupt what's working, which means I'm limiting my own options.
I acknowledge this is in conflict!
i guess it's a good problem to have, but it really drives me crazy sometimes.
S&P 500 + Bitcoin
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I can definitely relate to this sort of sentiment. I have about three years until my target date, and I increasingly question whether I will make it. I can sense that I am becoming more and more detached from the whole thing. Part of it has been driven by a leadership change in the last year that has been very negative for my work life, and for everyone in my group. That has made it easier just to not care, I suppose, but it has made it harder to show up (virtually) every day. It is hard b/c I really think I could make the numbers work to leave now, but it wouldn’t be the “responsible” thing to do.novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm
i can relate
i find there is a negative correlation between my net worth, and my interest in my corporate job.
our net worth jumped quite a bit over the past year, so this is relationship became much more obvious (i am fully aware we are seeing unusually high returns to equities).
if i get stressed about something at work, used to plow right through it. recently, my thought process is something a long the lines of this:
“of the total annual increase in my net worth, the portion of that increase driven by my labor is decreasing at an accelerating rate. my money is making money at a faster clip than my own labor can make money. so why am i stressing out about my job and selling my own finite time on this earth for money, when my assets are already making money? my labor is slowly becoming less and less valuable to my life every year.”
i can’t seem to escape this thought process, and i can’t help but feel it’s not healthy, but I somehow can’t not think it… because I think it’s true?
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I don't think the labor participation rate is very useful here. It's calculated as people who are employed / (people who are employed + people who are unemployed and actively looking for work), so it explicitly excludes everyone who has FIREd from calculation. As the number of unemployed people willing to work goes down due to early retirement, the labor participation rate would go up if all other things were held equal.marcopolo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:52 pm The "great resignation" story seems to be largely an urban myth.
There was an almost immediate steep drop off when the pandemic first started, but the labor participation rate has been steadily climbing since then. It is currently at its post-pandemic high.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-s ... n-rate.htm
If there was really a steady stream of resignations (not just job changes), you would expect the labor participation rate to continue to decline, no?
Here are some slightly more detailed numbers that include the count of who isn't in the labor force: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm - there you can see that more people are in fact more people in the labor force (and fewer not in it, and fewer not in it who want a job) than last year, though you don't get much information about why.
Here's an unsatisfying breakdown of why people who aren't in the labor force aren't.
- 2018-2019: https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2019/cpsaat35.htm
- 2020-2021: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea38.htm
It looks like pretty consistently >90% have been "don't want a job now", though 2020 saw this brief uptick in "want a job" - it seems like in 2021 those people found jobs or gave up and we're back to 2018/2019 levels. Further, it looks like from 2019 to 2020, about 3.5 million extra people (most 55+) decided they "don't want a job" and another million did so between 2020 and 2021. That's nothing to sneeze at! Of course there are other factors at play like people entering the labor force and moving between bands due to age, graduation, deaths, etc. - but this surprised me.
On topic, this "great resignation" has only spurred my desire to FIRE. I scored a much better paying and more fulfilling/interesting job as a result of the whole situation and am using that to accelerate my retirement as fast as possible, because even with what is objectively a very good job I hate it and am tired of working. The past two years have really crystalized for me just how ephemeral life is and I don't want to waste any more of it on work than what's required to let me live a happy, low-stress life.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I suspect it's not uncommon at all.novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:40 pmi experience this exact conflict on a regular basis. we are further out from our number than you are, but it's comforting to know someone else is also going through it, so i don't feel like i'm crazy. i imagine there are many others on this board who are dealing with the same issue.SnowBog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:17 pmSame here!novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm i find there is a negative correlation between my net worth, and my interest in my corporate job.
...
if i get stressed about something at work, used to plow right through it. recently, my thought process is something a long the lines of this:
“... my labor is slowly becoming less and less valuable to my life every year.”
i can’t seem to escape this thought process, and i can’t help but feel it’s not healthy, but I somehow can’t not think it… because I think it’s true?
I feel this is simultaneously encouraging and (at least for me) a trap.
On the positive side, it's great to see that years of living below our means and saving are having the desired result. Likewise, it's great to know that we have "options".
Oddly, and conversely (at least for me), the "trap" is when I'm close enough to see the finish line, not wanting/willing to do much to disrupt what's working, which means I'm limiting my own options.
I acknowledge this is in conflict!
i guess it's a good problem to have, but it really drives me crazy sometimes.
Maybe even more common for those with pensions or other payouts tied to specific milestones (age, years employment, etc.).
I've heard the above referenced as "rest and vest".
I'm not sure I'm "resting" yet, and I've got nothing to "vest"... But conceptually maybe I'm there... For me it's more "the devil I know" I'm proven and thus know how to be successful in my job / organization. Starting over in a new role / organization / company sounds like more hassle than it feels worth to me at this point... I'll do it if needed, but I'm hoping its not needed!
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I quit a high stress tech executive job with nothing lined up. We can FIRE but I'm planning to take a sabbatical and reassess if I want to return to workforce at all. Wife wants to continue her healthcare management career. We're in 40s.
Cheers!
Cheers!
Last edited by fullplay2024 on Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
This wasn’t really COVID driven, but I definitely accelerated my plans to FIRE as well. 49 year old lawyer in private practice, and I’m burned out. I’m giving my notice in a week or two. I’ll probably do a little work as I transition into full retirement, but I’m done working full time for someone else.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
What you are describing is the unemployment rate.jebco wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:58 pmI don't think the labor participation rate is very useful here. It's calculated as people who are employed / (people who are employed + people who are unemployed and actively looking for work), so it explicitly excludes everyone who has FIREd from calculation. As the number of unemployed people willing to work goes down due to early retirement, the labor participation rate would go up if all other things were held equal.marcopolo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:52 pm The "great resignation" story seems to be largely an urban myth.
There was an almost immediate steep drop off when the pandemic first started, but the labor participation rate has been steadily climbing since then. It is currently at its post-pandemic high.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-s ... n-rate.htm
If there was really a steady stream of resignations (not just job changes), you would expect the labor participation rate to continue to decline, no?
Here are some slightly more detailed numbers that include the count of who isn't in the labor force: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm - there you can see that more people are in fact more people in the labor force (and fewer not in it, and fewer not in it who want a job) than last year, though you don't get much information about why.
Here's an unsatisfying breakdown of why people who aren't in the labor force aren't.
- 2018-2019: https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2019/cpsaat35.htm
- 2020-2021: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea38.htm
It looks like pretty consistently >90% have been "don't want a job now", though 2020 saw this brief uptick in "want a job" - it seems like in 2021 those people found jobs or gave up and we're back to 2018/2019 levels. Further, it looks like from 2019 to 2020, about 3.5 million extra people (most 55+) decided they "don't want a job" and another million did so between 2020 and 2021. That's nothing to sneeze at! Of course there are other factors at play like people entering the labor force and moving between bands due to age, graduation, deaths, etc. - but this surprised me.
On topic, this "great resignation" has only spurred my desire to FIRE. I scored a much better paying and more fulfilling/interesting job as a result of the whole situation and am using that to accelerate my retirement as fast as possible, because even with what is objectively a very good job I hate it and am tired of working. The past two years have really crystalized for me just how ephemeral life is and I don't want to waste any more of it on work than what's required to let me live a happy, low-stress life.
Labor participation is people working/non-institutionalized population. Look closer at your first link.
The larger number of retirees is mostly just demographics as the baby boomer keep pouring into retirement.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Oh, hmm, you're right. I do still note there's a significant increase in the number of people not looking for a job. Did that many people legitimately hit retirement age, or did they retire early?marcopolo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:00 pm What you are describing is the unemployment rate.
Labor participation is people working/non-institutionalized population. Look closer at your first link.
The larger number of retirees is mostly just demographics as the baby boomer keep pouring into retirement.
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Good luck. I feel like if I had an unpaid option I’d take it over the summer months when kiddos are out of school. As a poor second best dw and I are planning to take 3 weeks off PTO in the summer.SciurusVulgaris wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:38 pm Tech employee here, and burned out from the WFH changes. Glad not to have a commute, but work hours have expanded to more than fill that saved time. The expanded work hours are what feel like unproductive meetings. Upper management likes these to be sure a remote workforce is on the ball. Several of my close colleagues have left.
I don't want to resign, and I feel overly privileged complaining about a job where I sit in a chair, but the engines are starting to overheat.
We have unpaid leave, subject to VP-approval. I might try that.
Can you imagine…the whole summer off!!
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“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Wow, kudos and appreciate all your really impactful work.aas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:56 pm Retired 2 weeks ago 1.5 years earlier than planned. COVID burnout working as a healthcare worker was the contributing factor. My employer department would not allow me to work part-time or per diem so I gave them my resignation letter. I have lived a simple frugal life and invested wisely and paid off debt. My boss and his wife makes 3x my salary and thought I won the lottery.
Good on you to take control and resign. Best of luck with your next adventures!
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Well played. That’s smart. Why take on the additional stress!Candor wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:08 pm I FIRED'd last year due to burnout and the fact that a colleague was retiring which would create a significant increase in my already overwhelming workload. I probably would have soldiered on for another year or two if he didn't retire but looking back I have no regrets whatsoever. The extra money would have been nice but it wouldn't be worth it. They are still trying to fill both of our positions 8 months later so I would still be struggling to manage the load with no end in sight and I would get to add the privilege of training the new guy on top of everything else if they ever find one. No thank you.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Sounds amazing! Agree, with kids it’s much harder. We’ll done for taking the break when you did!langelgjm wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:12 pm I took a nearly 5 month unpaid sabbatical from my job at a midsize media/tech consulting firm in 2018. I was burned out after working for months on brutally understaffed project with unrealistic requirements and deadlines. The company was about to embark on an expansion of the project and had learned no real lesson from the first go around, so I said "nope". The sabbatical policy was brand new and I technically didn't quite qualify, but made my case and they let me go.
I volunteered as an English teacher in public schools in Chile for roughly 4 of those months, then spent a few weeks in Colombia. It was a great experience, and reminded me how it was very possible to enjoy a totally different, much simpler, and less expensive lifestyle.
When I came back, the project I had missed when I was gone had gone as poorly as I expected. I was refreshed, re-motivated, and got promoted after a few months. You could say the sabbatical cost me tens of thousands of dollars in lost wages, but I don't think I would have been able to stick out the job (or industry) much longer if I didn't have the break, so it may very well have saved me much more.
I think my current employer does offer some kind of sabbatical as well, but you need a much longer tenure. I'll likely have FIRE'd before I'm eligible. It's also much harder to take a meaningful break away from the ordinary now with a young child.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Maybe this is already beaten to death, but I know of at least 2 people who have taken sabbaticals in tech. One took a couple years off IIRC and even relocated to another country before coming back to work remotely. Another took a few months off and did a bunch of traveling. In the latter case I don't think the company even advertised sabbaticals as a thing. Both of these happened prior to the pandemic.
Whether it is advertised or not, I suspect people can negotiate such an arrangement with their employers along with various other arrangements. In large companies sabbaticals can be useful as they can provide one a bit of time in between positions (for example if one wants to switch projects in the same org).
Just to provide a totally different example, I know someone who changed jobs and negotiated for it to be part time as they wanted to spend time with their new kid. Additionally more and more companies are offering paternity and maternity leave as things. So new parents can take time off and even interweave their time off.
Generally being FI can certainly help provide the confidence needed to negotiate aggressively for what one wants from an employer, but they may not actually be needed.
Planet Money did a good job capturing the general labor phenomenon we are experiencing well (I think). They called it The Great Renegotiation. To the OP's point I think the screws are being put to employers to figure out how to better help their employees. The ones that don't will keep bleeding talent until they figure it out (or don't).
Whether it is advertised or not, I suspect people can negotiate such an arrangement with their employers along with various other arrangements. In large companies sabbaticals can be useful as they can provide one a bit of time in between positions (for example if one wants to switch projects in the same org).
Just to provide a totally different example, I know someone who changed jobs and negotiated for it to be part time as they wanted to spend time with their new kid. Additionally more and more companies are offering paternity and maternity leave as things. So new parents can take time off and even interweave their time off.
Generally being FI can certainly help provide the confidence needed to negotiate aggressively for what one wants from an employer, but they may not actually be needed.
Planet Money did a good job capturing the general labor phenomenon we are experiencing well (I think). They called it The Great Renegotiation. To the OP's point I think the screws are being put to employers to figure out how to better help their employees. The ones that don't will keep bleeding talent until they figure it out (or don't).
"Anyone who claims to understand quantum theory is either lying or crazy" -- Richard Feynman
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Yep Europeans do vacations the right way. Lol.SnowBog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:51 pmYears ago (at least 15), at a prior employer, I was doing a project that required me to work with a team in Europe. The first time I went over there, my local contact was telling me how horrible their most recent "holiday" (aka vacation) was as it was only 2 weeks long, and simply not enough time to decompress and enjoy themselves. They went on to say that it was OK, at they had a 3 week "holiday" just a few more weeks away.GP813 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:39 pm The American worker has been overworked for decades. The pandemic caused a lot of existential thinking among people. When faced with your own mortality or a stark outline of what work/life balance is supposed to be, many have changed their thinking and priorities. You see it reflected in the surveys and polls of people saying they'd take less money to work from home or even leave a good paying job to look for one with a more flexible work/life balance.
They were shocked to learn that most people in America only get 2-3 weeks (if they are lucky), and many struggle to use those weeks. And only once in my entire life (at that point at least) had I ever been on a two week vacation, and never a 3 or more week vacation...
I’ve been lucky to take 4-5 weeks off each year past decade or so.
One year I took 8 weeks off. What a great boss I had then
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“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I'm planning to take the whole summer off to hang out with my kids (5 & 7) and get some house projects done this year. I've pondered asking for 12 week leave of absence but I think I'll likely just quit outright as I think I need a change. I stayed too long at my last job because it was comfortable when I really should have moved on sooner. Luckily there are tons of jobs in my field and I know lots of people after 20 years in the business so I'm not too worried about finding new employment.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:22 pmGood luck. I feel like if I had an unpaid option I’d take it over the summer months when kiddos are out of school. As a poor second best dw and I are planning to take 3 weeks off PTO in the summer.SciurusVulgaris wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:38 pm Tech employee here, and burned out from the WFH changes. Glad not to have a commute, but work hours have expanded to more than fill that saved time. The expanded work hours are what feel like unproductive meetings. Upper management likes these to be sure a remote workforce is on the ball. Several of my close colleagues have left.
I don't want to resign, and I feel overly privileged complaining about a job where I sit in a chair, but the engines are starting to overheat.
We have unpaid leave, subject to VP-approval. I might try that.
Can you imagine…the whole summer off!!
I also took a leave of absence for 9 months from my last job 15 years ago and it was great. Traveled throughout U.S. and South America. I hope to do it again in a few years with my kids...assuming travel ever comes back to something close to what it once was.
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
very interesting to hear your story. Thanks for sharing. Good points about the addressing the underlying situation!Afty wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:03 pm This was pre-COVID, but a few years ago I took a 2-month summer sabbatical from my Big Tech job. I was burned out from a project that turned into a trainwreck, combined with a general feeling that our team was underappreciated and perpetually understaffed. I spent about half my sabbatical traveling with my young kids, and the other half split among "staycation" with the kids, taking care of stuff around the house, and learning a new work-related skill.
I really enjoyed the sabbatical, but by the end I was beginning to lose motivation to be productive. Furthermore, when I started back at work, pretty much all of my old stress and unhappiness came back, because I hadn't solved the underlying problems -- if I am coming back to the same situation, why would I expect a different outcome? It took me a few more years, but I switched companies about a year ago and am much happier in the new role which is a much better fit for me.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I would love to take a sabbatical as the pandemic, togethrf with reorgs at work and health issues in the family have really burned me out. I have read some articles lately thst suggest sabbaticals MAY become more common.
They are more common in EU and i don’t think they will take off in the US. I think as someone mentioned, companies just don’t have to.
I am curious what type of net worth every one on here has that they are are FI and retiring early?
They are more common in EU and i don’t think they will take off in the US. I think as someone mentioned, companies just don’t have to.
I am curious what type of net worth every one on here has that they are are FI and retiring early?
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
IBM. Microsoft (2 months?) These are all probably not a 9-month professor sabbaticals. By the way, professors usually take sabbatical to write a book or work collaboratively in a different place. It’s not a vacation.sailaway wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:23 pmAMD had sabbaticals a few years ago, but it was only a month. Not sure if you could work something out unpaid, as we were just ramping up our savings back then.retiringwhen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:07 pmIntel is the only tech company with sabbaticals I know.
BTW, I was thinking of retiring in 2020, but the pandemic gave me reason to stick around (I was stuck at home already! and I have been a 100% telecommuter for a decade).
I am starting the transition to retirement this year. If 18 hrs/week doesn't mess with my desires, I may keep at it for a while! There is little financial incentive for me to stick around, except somewhat cheaper health benefits. I do like some of the challenges.
If a job is offering sabbaticals that might be a red flag they expect you to work very long hours.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
COVID had added a huge layer of stress, to be sure, both on work and family. But I do think stress has been a part of the workforce for many years. In the late 70's I was doing emergency psychiatric assessment, often in the field, with intense and dangerous situations. We worked nights every other week, worked two random holidays per year and on call two weekends every 6 weeks. Spent one Christmas day trying to negotiate with a man holding a knife to his kid's throat! There were many times I would be up for 36 hours. After over 6 years I was feeling burned out, with nothing left in the tank, and I asked for a 6 month unpaid leave of absence, as we had paid off the house and saved three years of living expenses. They said they just couldn't offer that. I said "OK, I resign effective March 1". Pretty scary, but my spouse was just getting started in her new career in the schools. And I had a dream I wanted to explore. Flew 3,000 miles and bought a very small sailboat and sailed to the Bahamas for 6 months to test myself and assess life. Spouse and oldest joined me mid-June when school let out, but mostly singlehanded and soul searched. Came back and refocused on a different direction, went back to school for two quarters to obtain a school certificate (7 years after getting my masters). That shift put me in a much more family-oriented career and gave me considerable time off to continue sailing during the summer. It could equally apply today, with a wide variety of situations- time with family, travel, explore hobbies or just evaluate your path. "All who wander are not lost."Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm Almost two years into the pandemic, we've heard and seen the great job resignation & rotation for better jobs, higher salary.
Has anyone here either accelerated their plans for retiring early, OR decided to take a meaningful break form work (3 to 12 months, sabbatical etc)?
I think about the latter more and more.
Keep hearing burnout is more and more an issue at work. However, i don't see many employers offering official breaks, sabbaticals (just lines about take your PTO - which is still good to hear...)
I did see this a lot more in Europe, sometimes with the same company! (Big 4 etc). I wonder why career breaks are more the norm/offered in other parts of the world?
I feel like companies will be forced to offer this kind of benefit once the big firms (Facebook, Google etc) make this a part of their HR benefits.
Others normally follow their lead.
Anyway, just wanted to take a pulse survey from this group. It will help me learn from other peoples experiences.
I can edit this OP as needed.
Cheers & stay healthy!
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Indeed. After a divorce, I struggled to find a job. I ended up horribly underemployed, with one week off a year. One ear, my boyfriend and I were having breakfast at a bed and breakfast in Rouen and met a couple from Britain. They were horrified that I only had one week off, and commented that that would be illegal in their country. It was a very good day when I handed in my resignation and retired early.SnowBog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:51 pmYears ago (at least 15), at a prior employer, I was doing a project that required me to work with a team in Europe. The first time I went over there, my local contact was telling me how horrible their most recent "holiday" (aka vacation) was as it was only 2 weeks long, and simply not enough time to decompress and enjoy themselves. They went on to say that it was OK, at they had a 3 week "holiday" just a few more weeks away.GP813 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:39 pm The American worker has been overworked for decades. The pandemic caused a lot of existential thinking among people. When faced with your own mortality or a stark outline of what work/life balance is supposed to be, many have changed their thinking and priorities. You see it reflected in the surveys and polls of people saying they'd take less money to work from home or even leave a good paying job to look for one with a more flexible work/life balance.
They were shocked to learn that most people in America only get 2-3 weeks (if they are lucky), and many struggle to use those weeks. And only once in my entire life (at that point at least) had I ever been on a two week vacation, and never a 3 or more week vacation...
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
In the back of my mind I always considered early retirement an option but figured I'd probably work until about 62. I retired last Spring at 54. It was a combination of things but covid really clinched it. I have this character flaw where once I get proficient at something I get bored and look for another specialty. It seems to hit me every 5-7 years and I was past that point in my current job having been doing it for about 10 years. Then covid came and working from home made me realize how much I was missing out on. My retired friends were going kayaking/hiking/biking and I was looking out the window on sunny days wishing I could join them. On top of that I wrongly assumed that things were about to open back up and I'd be back to doing a lot of international travel, which I despise. More than anything I really wanted to be the master of my own schedule. So being at a point where I knew it was time to change jobs to learn something new I decided I'd rather just retire. The phenomenal stock market growth of the past few years made the decision easy.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm Almost two years into the pandemic, we've heard and seen the great job resignation & rotation for better jobs, higher salary.
Has anyone here either accelerated their plans for retiring early, OR decided to take a meaningful break form work (3 to 12 months, sabbatical etc)?
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Many places used to require a sabbatical to uncover fraud, graft, et cetera. If someone is forced away for 6 to 8 weeks, it is tougher to keep various scams going.finite_difference wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:41 pm
If a job is offering sabbaticals that might be a red flag they expect you to work very long hours.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Where do you draw the line between early retirement and retirement age? Is it even a line or is there a range that is considered retirement age? You can start drawing from tax deferred accounts and have qualified Roth withdrawals at 59.5, but Social security payments can't start till 62. FRA is 67. Medicare kicks in at 65. So when exactly is "retirement age"?jebco wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:20 pmOh, hmm, you're right. I do still note there's a significant increase in the number of people not looking for a job. Did that many people legitimately hit retirement age, or did they retire early?marcopolo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:00 pm What you are describing is the unemployment rate.
Labor participation is people working/non-institutionalized population. Look closer at your first link.
The larger number of retirees is mostly just demographics as the baby boomer keep pouring into retirement.
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
You're not alone. I've heard multiple times (but never independently confirmed) that employees at "unlimited PTO" companies actually take less time off than before. Greatest trick HR ever pulled. I'm also at one of these companies, and I much preferred the last place which let you bank it and eventually sell it when you left.mrb09 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:40 pm
My current company has "unlimited" vacation. Prior to that we had 3-5 weeks vacation a year based on years employed, and you'd lose vacation at 200 hours if you didn't take it, which was a valid inducement to actually take vacation. With "unlimited" vacation I'm probably taking the least amount of vacation in my career, partly because no one is making me take it, and partly because it just doesn't seem to be the norm now (and legitimately I have no where to go during the pandemic, but also I'm not taking Fridays off with the "I'm at 200 hours" excuse).
I could never get my SVP to agree to let me off every Friday for the last 4 months of the year at this company - but at my prior job, they wouldn't have really had a choice because I was at "use it or lose it" and it would have made them look bad if I wasn't "allowed to take the time I was entitled to".
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
It's not just you:MBB_Boy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:46 amYou're not alone. I've heard multiple times (but never independently confirmed) that employees at "unlimited PTO" companies actually take less time off than before. Greatest trick HR ever pulled. I'm also at one of these companies, and I much preferred the last place which let you bank it and eventually sell it when you left.mrb09 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:40 pm
My current company has "unlimited" vacation. Prior to that we had 3-5 weeks vacation a year based on years employed, and you'd lose vacation at 200 hours if you didn't take it, which was a valid inducement to actually take vacation. With "unlimited" vacation I'm probably taking the least amount of vacation in my career, partly because no one is making me take it, and partly because it just doesn't seem to be the norm now (and legitimately I have no where to go during the pandemic, but also I'm not taking Fridays off with the "I'm at 200 hours" excuse).
I could never get my SVP to agree to let me off every Friday for the last 4 months of the year at this company - but at my prior job, they wouldn't have really had a choice because I was at "use it or lose it" and it would have made them look bad if I wasn't "allowed to take the time I was entitled to".
In general, I suspect unlimited PTO policies are a combination of 1) marketing for talent that doesn't know better and 2) a way to not have to track, administer or pay out unused vacation when employees separate.“According to a study done by Namely, an HR software company, employees under unlimited PTO take an average of 13 days off annually,” Flanagan said. “This is two days less than the employees under the traditional PTO package.”
My last employer also had "unlimited PTO". To their credit, they encouraged people to take at least 1 week (i.e., 5 consecutive work days) off once a year by providing an annual cash bonus when you did so. However one time I took off 3 Fridays in a row due to family visiting, etc., and got a "talking to" from my boss suggesting I was taking too much time off. I told him I knew I took less time off than average, and if he wanted we could look at the public out of office calendar right then to prove it.
I take (and accumulate) much more vacation now that I work at a company with a normal PTO policy. Current employer actually increased PTO for this year from 14 to 21 days , plus 10 holidays. Still unlikely to take it all (especially with the pandemic) but at least I can bank it.
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
TONS of job change churn in tech. Seems to get lost in the noise in those top line numbers but tech companies are suffering very high attrition as people are leaving for greener pastures left and right. Ive seen teams I work with loose half their people since last summer and we have 20 year veterans who I was certain where "lifers" decide to try something new. Competition is tough to replace people as candidates are getting multiple offers, and its really hitting our morale and productivity as the rest of us get overworked picking up the slack.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:44 pmAgree. It is mostly all job changes. Except perhaps on this forummarcopolo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:52 pmThe "great resignation" story seems to be largely an urban myth.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:33 pm Almost two years into the pandemic, we've heard and seen the great job resignation & rotation for better jobs, higher salary.
Has anyone here either accelerated their plans for retiring early, OR decided to take a meaningful break form work (3 to 12 months, sabbatical etc)?
I think about the latter more and more.
Keep hearing burnout is more and more an issue at work. However, i don't see many employers offering official breaks, sabbaticals (just lines about take your PTO - which is still good to hear...)
I did see this a lot more in Europe, sometimes with the same company! (Big 4 etc). I wonder why career breaks are more the norm/offered in other parts of the world?
I feel like companies will be forced to offer this kind of benefit once the big firms (Facebook, Google etc) make this a part of their HR benefits.
Others normally follow their lead.
Anyway, just wanted to take a pulse survey from this group. It will help me learn from other peoples experiences.
I can edit this OP as needed.
Cheers & stay healthy!
There was an almost immediate steep drop off when the pandemic first started, but the labor participation rate has been steadily climbing since then. It is currently at its post-pandemic high.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-s ... n-rate.htm
If there was really a steady stream of resignations (not just job changes), you would expect the labor participation rate to continue to decline, no?
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Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I have posted similar response in the past. Original plan was to retire @ 55, but new exciting job was about to extend my retirement date. However, the Pandemic had other plans for me.
1) Accepted a new position in a newly created organization & product line within current Mega Corp. They came to me and begged me to join, May 2020 - very nice bump in pay. I was really excited in the new position and had much to provide to a new organization with my experience. Many new employees that needed mentoring, organization and leadership direction. Again, very excited that I was going to make a difference.
2) Within one month, the new position became total overload of new responsibilities with multiple team members in Japan, China, India, Europe, US - East and West Coasts.
3) Was basically tied to my computer starting 5 AM (APAC meetings) and often not ending until 8 PM (West Coast meetings) M-F with multiple meetings on weekends also. For months, Sr. Leadership refused to listen to me that I was overloaded and could not successfully execute to customer satisfaction with this state
4) While I was not a direct report, the Engineering Director for one of my teams was the biggest Dysfunctional A$$ Hat I have ever worked with in +25 years of employment - quick to blame me and others for his inability to lead a global team.
5) My DM's health was failing quickly, so I wanted to spend more time with her, etc.
6) Crushing amount of stress at work, DM with failing health and DS who was failing with remote learning
7) Realized that I had enough $$ and the current work conditions made it impossible to ever be successful. I could not continue working in a no-win situation, so I pulled plug in Jan @ 55. The function of FU money is amazing!
Ultimately, retirement was the best decision of my life! Stress has melted away, I am closer to DW & Kids, and I was able to spend some quality time with my DM prior to her passing away in April 2021. DW is now experiencing same situation and will be leaving her employer in May. I can't wait. Life is too short, and we have much to accomplish together from our Bucket Lists!
1) Accepted a new position in a newly created organization & product line within current Mega Corp. They came to me and begged me to join, May 2020 - very nice bump in pay. I was really excited in the new position and had much to provide to a new organization with my experience. Many new employees that needed mentoring, organization and leadership direction. Again, very excited that I was going to make a difference.
2) Within one month, the new position became total overload of new responsibilities with multiple team members in Japan, China, India, Europe, US - East and West Coasts.
3) Was basically tied to my computer starting 5 AM (APAC meetings) and often not ending until 8 PM (West Coast meetings) M-F with multiple meetings on weekends also. For months, Sr. Leadership refused to listen to me that I was overloaded and could not successfully execute to customer satisfaction with this state
4) While I was not a direct report, the Engineering Director for one of my teams was the biggest Dysfunctional A$$ Hat I have ever worked with in +25 years of employment - quick to blame me and others for his inability to lead a global team.
5) My DM's health was failing quickly, so I wanted to spend more time with her, etc.
6) Crushing amount of stress at work, DM with failing health and DS who was failing with remote learning
7) Realized that I had enough $$ and the current work conditions made it impossible to ever be successful. I could not continue working in a no-win situation, so I pulled plug in Jan @ 55. The function of FU money is amazing!
Ultimately, retirement was the best decision of my life! Stress has melted away, I am closer to DW & Kids, and I was able to spend some quality time with my DM prior to her passing away in April 2021. DW is now experiencing same situation and will be leaving her employer in May. I can't wait. Life is too short, and we have much to accomplish together from our Bucket Lists!
Last edited by AllMostThere on Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is not about how much you make; it is about how much you keep and how well you invest it. - Author Unknown |
Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today. - Author James Dean
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- Posts: 15368
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
My wife's employer has "unlimited PTO", but as noted, that essentially means "no time off". She mentioned to her boss in August (the week she was hired) that we would be going out of town December 23rd-December 30th. She ended up having to put out fires the entire week, working at least 3-4hrs each day, and then nearly had to hop on a flight on the 24th. That was the cue for her to talk to her boss about resigning, which led to them giving her an immediate 2 weeks paid time off and putting in writing specific boundaries about when and how she is willing to work. Apparently they are strongly considering going to a conventional model next year (according to boss).MBB_Boy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:46 amYou're not alone. I've heard multiple times (but never independently confirmed) that employees at "unlimited PTO" companies actually take less time off than before. Greatest trick HR ever pulled. I'm also at one of these companies, and I much preferred the last place which let you bank it and eventually sell it when you left.mrb09 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:40 pm
My current company has "unlimited" vacation. Prior to that we had 3-5 weeks vacation a year based on years employed, and you'd lose vacation at 200 hours if you didn't take it, which was a valid inducement to actually take vacation. With "unlimited" vacation I'm probably taking the least amount of vacation in my career, partly because no one is making me take it, and partly because it just doesn't seem to be the norm now (and legitimately I have no where to go during the pandemic, but also I'm not taking Fridays off with the "I'm at 200 hours" excuse).
I always get to the end of the year and have to take the entire month of December off because we can only roll over 56hrs of PTO. Considering I am permanent WFH and have a ton of autonomy, it really doesn't end up being much different than when I am working. I do respond to emails and complete projects on my timeline, but I still do work because it saves me from a mess when I officially return. It's great to work because it is your choice.
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- Posts: 1179
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:14 am
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Thanks for posting the Arthur Brooks article link. Incredibly well done. Important quote: “He failed to leave Grihastha,” he told me. “He was addicted to the rewards of the world.” I encourage others to read the piece to understand what this means.cbs2002 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 pmI encourage people to read this article by Arthur C. Brooks. He also writes shorter pieces for the Atlantic regularly on related topics that are well worth your time.Wannaretireearly wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:51 pmI like this line of thinking…cbs2002 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:30 pmIt is absolutely true and I'd argue quite healthy to realize this. The question now: what value do you want to generate from your labor that is not about making money?novolog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:09 pm my money is making money at a faster clip than my own labor can make money. so why am i stressing out about my job and selling my own finite time on this earth for money, when my assets are already making money? my labor is slowly becoming less and less valuable to my life every year.”
i can’t help but feel it’s not healthy?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ne/590650/
- teen persuasion
- Posts: 2319
- Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:43 pm
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
I've realized this is exactly my issue.punkinhead wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:58 am More than anything I really wanted to be the master of my own schedule.
I like my job, what I do, sense of purpose for my community. But I'd really rather do it on my own schedule. Unfortunately, then I'd feel guilty for making another coworker work the hours I don't want, because no one wants them. So we compromise and share the pain.
Of course, this annoyance with others making schedules for me also extends to the whole school schedule via my kids: getting up way too early to wait for the bus in the dark, M-F school day attendance, mandatory events in the evening (always inconvenient, usually bad weather), breaks not when I'd like them (how about 10 weeks off during winter holidays + blizzard season, instead of summer? I'd rather hunker down than risk travel in LES storms)...
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- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:48 pm
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Add to this that, having discovered remote work and increased US salaries, the scloratic established megacorps are primarily hiring cheaper overseas labor. These are fine folks, but haven't been well prepared by their schools or their work experiences, further increasing the load on existing employees. These existing employees get fed up and leave.jharkin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:06 am TONS of job change churn in tech. Seems to get lost in the noise in those top line numbers but tech companies are suffering very high attrition as people are leaving for greener pastures left and right. Ive seen teams I work with loose half their people since last summer and we have 20 year veterans who I was certain where "lifers" decide to try something new. Competition is tough to replace people as candidates are getting multiple offers, and its really hitting our morale and productivity as the rest of us get overworked picking up the slack.
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- Posts: 107
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:22 am
Re: The great FIRE resignation?
Another former Tandem person here. I was able to take two sabbaticals, late '80s and early '90s, before they stopped the program. I was also a manager and having the (mandatory) sabbaticals did have two beneficial effects:
1) Quantitatively improved our job retention time for senior tech people
2) Forced managers to break the "design it then support it until you leave the company" paradigm, a leading cause of job dissatisfaction and burnout. This also effectively forced managers to cross train and do real succession planning.
Now, even generous vacation policies don't get us the time away from the stress: I haven't had a vacation of more than a few days in the last 10 years that I haven't been pulled into a crisis, either technical or political or both. Truly, the only way to break the stress pattern is to leave the company, which only replaces it with a new one. I'm gutting out my last 6 months until retirement, about 18 months earlier than planned. I've stayed hands-on tech through most of my career and I used to love this stuff, but once I'm out I don't think I'll ever look at a line of code or a circuit diagram again.
1) Quantitatively improved our job retention time for senior tech people
2) Forced managers to break the "design it then support it until you leave the company" paradigm, a leading cause of job dissatisfaction and burnout. This also effectively forced managers to cross train and do real succession planning.
Now, even generous vacation policies don't get us the time away from the stress: I haven't had a vacation of more than a few days in the last 10 years that I haven't been pulled into a crisis, either technical or political or both. Truly, the only way to break the stress pattern is to leave the company, which only replaces it with a new one. I'm gutting out my last 6 months until retirement, about 18 months earlier than planned. I've stayed hands-on tech through most of my career and I used to love this stuff, but once I'm out I don't think I'll ever look at a line of code or a circuit diagram again.