Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

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Topic Author
dunk1234
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Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:41 am

Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by dunk1234 »

Hi,

I'd like to have the forum's opinion on how to select credit card rewards most efficiently. My belief is that the rewards (percentage returns on spending) should be targeted to the high-spending areas. For me those are (in order) food, gas, and merchandise. This is why I've chosen Costco's Citi card, and Amazon's Prime card. Their rewards programs target food, gas, and merchandise.

My wife, an immigrant, has been building credit on my Citi card for years now, and we'd like to get a card for her. I threw out the idea of an L.L. Bean card as we like to shop there.

My question is: What are the significant opportunity costs of adding L.L. Bean to our current 2-card system?

Thank you.

p.s. My gut tells me that once you start playing the "points" game you start getting ripped off. Points are, in my mind, a means to complicate-obscure-reduce actual rewards. I much prefer simple percentage returns which Citi, Prime, and Bean all provide.
humblecoder
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by humblecoder »

There are many threads on this message board regarding credit card rewards. You can use the search box to view past discussions on this topic.

The general high level summary is that some people will advocate for a simple one-card system that gives at least 2% cash back. That way, you don't have to worry about figuring out what to put on what card, etc.

Others will advocate for a more optimized system where you have multiple cards that are targeted towards different types of spend.

Neither philosophy is right or wrong. It is up to you to decide how much effort you want to put into chasing credit card rewards.

Here is my setup:

Amazon Visa card: 5% back on Amazon purchases. Used only for Amazon.

Target Red card: 5% back on Target purchases. Used only for Target purchases.

Chase Freedom: 5% back on quarterly rotating categories. Used only for purchases in the quarterly category

Discover: 5% back on quarterly rotating categories. Used only for purchases in the quarterly category

Bank of America Cash Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 5.25% back on one category (I used the online category), 3.5% back at warehouse club/grocery stores. Used only for the respective categories.

Bank of America Premium Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 2.625% back on everything. Used for purchases that don't fit into any the above categories.

My setup is probably too complex for some, and not optimized enough for others.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by ResearchMed »

dunk1234 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:18 am Hi,

I'd like to have the forum's opinion on how to select credit card rewards most efficiently. My belief is that the rewards (percentage returns on spending) should be targeted to the high-spending areas. For me those are (in order) food, gas, and merchandise. This is why I've chosen Costco's Citi card, and Amazon's Prime card. Their rewards programs target food, gas, and merchandise.

My wife, an immigrant, has been building credit on my Citi card for years now, and we'd like to get a card for her. I threw out the idea of an L.L. Bean card as we like to shop there.

My question is: What are the significant opportunity costs of adding L.L. Bean to our current 2-card system?

Thank you.

p.s. My gut tells me that once you start playing the "points" game you start getting ripped off. Points are, in my mind, a means to complicate-obscure-reduce actual rewards. I much prefer simple percentage returns which Citi, Prime, and Bean all provide.
Welcome to BH!

The search function here will help a lot:

credit card rewards

searching just title:
search.php?keywords=credit+card+rewards ... mit=Search

searching title and text:

search.php?keywords=credit+card+rewards ... mit=Search

You'll also find lots of disagreement about whether playing the points game means getting ripped off.
That depends upon how one uses the awards, and, importantly, whether one would have spent cash for those "wins" anyway.

Some here don't even use cash-back cards.
Others only use that type.
Yet others actively use the "awards". One thing is that awards used for "premium seats on top international airlines" can be a phenomenal 'value'. But NOT if one otherwise would have paid for economy. For those who would have paid for J (business class), this can be a real 'win'.

But don't label all use of awards (or almost anything else) as "getting ripped off".
We are among those who would pay cash for international J if we couldn't use awards for those seats. Proof is that unfortunately, we've need to do that (pay cash for J) on the one [thus far] trip where we just couldn't get awards tickets, even with the help of a service.
We would no longer travel long-haul if we needed to fly economy. It's too hard on our aging bodies, and at this point in life, we can afford to pay cash for J, although we strongly prefer not to do so.

We mostly use American Express Membership Rewards and American Airlines AAdvantage Citicard for AA points.
Between the two, we get access to almost all (but not quite) international airlines. We don't fly ON American; we prefer their network partners. And of course, with Amex, we'd use airline partners, too.

We have had phenomenal trips using these awards/points that we otherwise would not have taken.
And those trips have meant a lot to us!
:happy

One would do well to choose "which cards" depending upon how you plan to use such rewards (assuming you plan actually to use them at all).

RM
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Topic Author
dunk1234
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by dunk1234 »

humblecoder wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:38 am
Amazon Visa card: 5% back on Amazon purchases. Used only for Amazon.

Bank of America Cash Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 5.25% back on one category (I used the online category), 3.5% back at warehouse club/grocery stores. Used only for the respective categories.
Thank you for sharing. I did try running a search for "credit card rewards" and didn't sate my curiosity, perhaps I should have looked deeper into the forum's history.

One question for you. When would you ever use Amazon's 5% bonus when B of A offers 5.25%?

Thanks
Topic Author
dunk1234
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by dunk1234 »

Thanks RM,

I like your warning that points don't always save money if they become the justification for spending more. That's very insightful. I've thought of CC rewards as a zero-sum take or leave kind of reward system but your response helped me understand that it isn't that simple.

My wife and I plan to make annual international flights (preferably economy), are you able to recommend a CC that would help us offset some of our expected travel costs?

Thanks again for your valuable insight.
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JazzTime
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by JazzTime »

I gave up on airline cards long ago. Impossible to score seats on flights you actually want to take on the days you want to travel. I still have AA points that I have tried several times to score Brit Air business class seats. It never works, unless of course you don't mind three connections leaving on Wednesday at midnight with a 12 hour layover when you want to travel on Friday. The non-stop BOS to LHR leaving around 8:00 am is never available.

I use my Fidelity 2% cash back for everything to keep life simple.

That said, I have occasionally opted for hotel affiliated cards when the bonus point offers are high. Scoring a free hotel room is much easier than scoring an airline seat. However, that is also becoming disappointing as the hotels keep devaluing the points by requiring more and more points for a stay. Marriott, IHG and Hyatt cards also offer a "free night" award on the card anniversary. I find it impossible to use these free night awards because there are no hotels that meet the limited award category applied to the anniversary night. If you don't mind staying at a Holiday Inn Express in Podunk, go for it.
The difficulty with jazz is there are too many notes. (Borrowed from Emperor's critique in Amadeus)
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by UpperNwGuy »

dunk1234 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:18 am Hi,

I'd like to have the forum's opinion on how to select credit card rewards most efficiently. My belief is that the rewards (percentage returns on spending) should be targeted to the high-spending areas. For me those are (in order) food, gas, and merchandise. This is why I've chosen Costco's Citi card, and Amazon's Prime card. Their rewards programs target food, gas, and merchandise.

My wife, an immigrant, has been building credit on my Citi card for years now, and we'd like to get a card for her. I threw out the idea of an L.L. Bean card as we like to shop there.

My question is: What are the significant opportunity costs of adding L.L. Bean to our current 2-card system?

Thank you.

p.s. My gut tells me that once you start playing the "points" game you start getting ripped off. Points are, in my mind, a means to complicate-obscure-reduce actual rewards. I much prefer simple percentage returns which Citi, Prime, and Bean all provide.
The Costco, Amazon, and L L Bean credit cards are all structured to bring business into Costco, Amazon, and L L Bean. None of these three cards are ideal. Instead, get a general purpose 2% flat-rate cash-back card and augment it with a 3% cash back card that targets some combination of groceries, gas, and restaurants. Put the cash back into a savings account and use it to offset the cost of travel. Don't get swept up into the points and miles for travel game.
THY4373
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by THY4373 »

dunk1234 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 am My wife and I plan to make annual international flights (preferably economy), are you able to recommend a CC that would help us offset some of our expected travel costs?

Thanks again for your valuable insight.
The answer to that will probably depending on where you are departing from and where you are going to. As somebody who burns seven figures of points a year travelling the world I will tell you that it takes a fair amount of effort to on the burn side (understanding different programs and their pros and cons) to really optimize your points usage. In general you probably want to look a transferable points currencies which allow you to earn points that can be transferred to multiple airlines and possibly hotel partners. Some programs also allow you to use points as effective cash to buy tickets. I'd look at Chase and Amex offers. Citi and CapOne can also be useful but somewhat less so in my experience.
theplayer11
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by theplayer11 »

JazzTime wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:06 am I gave up on airline cards long ago. Impossible to score seats on flights you actually want to take on the days you want to travel. I still have AA points that I have tried several times to score Brit Air business class seats. It never works, unless of course you don't mind three connections leaving on Wednesday at midnight with a 12 hour layover when you want to travel on Friday. The non-stop BOS to LHR leaving around 8:00 am is never available.

I use my Fidelity 2% cash back for everything to keep life simple.

That said, I have occasionally opted for hotel affiliated cards when the bonus point offers are high. Scoring a free hotel room is much easier than scoring an airline seat. However, that is also becoming disappointing as the hotels keep devaluing the points by requiring more and more points for a stay. Marriott, IHG and Hyatt cards also offer a "free night" award on the card anniversary. I find it impossible to use these free night awards because there are no hotels that meet the limited award category applied to the anniversary night. If you don't mind staying at a Holiday Inn Express in Podunk, go for it.
Bos-Mad in business on Iberia off season is usually open. From there, cheap flight to your final European destination. Transfer points from Chase. 68k points round trip, great value.
THY4373
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by THY4373 »

JazzTime wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:06 am I gave up on airline cards long ago. Impossible to score seats on flights you actually want to take on the days you want to travel. I still have AA points that I have tried several times to score Brit Air business class seats.

That said, I have occasionally opted for hotel affiliated cards when the bonus point offers are high. Scoring a free hotel room is much easier than scoring an airline seat. However, that is also becoming disappointing as the hotels keep devaluing the points by requiring more and more points for a stay. Marriott, IHG and Hyatt cards also offer a "free night" award on the card anniversary. I find it impossible to use these free night awards because there are no hotels that meet the limited award category applied to the anniversary night. If you don't mind staying at a Holiday Inn Express in Podunk, go for it.
I burn seven figures of points a year and don't have this issue. BA honestly is one of the easier airlines to score seats with (because in part of their high surcharges). BA guarantees the release 8 long haul economy, 2 premium economy and 4 business class seats at T-355 days on every long haul flight. You will find few other programs guaranteeing anything like that. Now one problem you face with AA points is they won't allow you to book anything until T-330 which is when AA releases their schedule so there are 25 days when BA and some other Oneworld carriers have access to the seats that you don't with your AA points, that said I still have very little issue finding BA J seats from any number of east coast cities even six-nine months out. Of course I am not using BA or AA points to book them since the surcharges that way are insane. My son and I are flying BA First to Zagreb next summer and flying back from Ljubljana on BA Club Suites (new business class). I lucked out with BA First on the exact date I wanted but J was pretty widely available.

On the hotel front I am currently in French Polynesia flew here in Business Class on Air France saver award (124k points round trip) and tomorrow I fly to Bora Bora to spend five nights on the Conrad there all on points. Basically $5000 stay for about $900 out of pocket (what it cost for me to generate the points). I am using three Hilton free night certs at the Waldorf Astoria Amsterdam ($800/night) for a trip in April. Hardly Podunk.

But you do raise a good point which is if you are not willing to put in the effort to learn about various programs then playing the points game can be frustrating.

In a nutshell I'd say points can be great for folks with the following characteristics:

You enjoy putting the time in to learn the ins and out of various programs
You are somewhat flexible in where and when you want to go
You are willing to monitor for availability you want
You have a lot of points across various programs (or transferable to various programs)
You are willing to either plan out well ahead of time and/or last minute.
Edited to add: If looking at premium cabins 1-2 people is usually quite doable as you go up from there things get complicated but I have done up to six folks in premium cabins on one day to the same destination albeit not all on one flight.

The fewer of the above that apply to you the less valuable earning points of cash will be.
THY4373
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by THY4373 »

theplayer11 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:08 pm
Bos-Mad in business on Iberia off season is usually open. From there, cheap flight to your final European destination. Transfer points from Chase. 68k points round trip, great value.
Very doable but keep in mind there is no protection on separate tickets so at least for your return to the US you want to make sure you leave yourself sufficient time for issues. Also in COVID times separate tickets means you have to meet the COVID entry requirements for your "transit" country. In general, when making a connection to a separate long haul ticket I try to get the positioning flight the day before unless the long haul flight is very late in the day.
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anon_investor
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by anon_investor »

humblecoder wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:38 am There are many threads on this message board regarding credit card rewards. You can use the search box to view past discussions on this topic.

The general high level summary is that some people will advocate for a simple one-card system that gives at least 2% cash back. That way, you don't have to worry about figuring out what to put on what card, etc.

Others will advocate for a more optimized system where you have multiple cards that are targeted towards different types of spend.

Neither philosophy is right or wrong. It is up to you to decide how much effort you want to put into chasing credit card rewards.

Here is my setup:

Amazon Visa card: 5% back on Amazon purchases. Used only for Amazon.

Target Red card: 5% back on Target purchases. Used only for Target purchases.

Chase Freedom: 5% back on quarterly rotating categories. Used only for purchases in the quarterly category

Discover: 5% back on quarterly rotating categories. Used only for purchases in the quarterly category

Bank of America Cash Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 5.25% back on one category (I used the online category), 3.5% back at warehouse club/grocery stores. Used only for the respective categories.

Bank of America Premium Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 2.625% back on everything. Used for purchases that don't fit into any the above categories.

My setup is probably too complex for some, and not optimized enough for others.
You have an excellent set up, nearly the same as mine. :sharebeer
humblecoder
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by humblecoder »

dunk1234 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:49 am
humblecoder wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:38 am
Amazon Visa card: 5% back on Amazon purchases. Used only for Amazon.

Bank of America Cash Rewards (with Platinum Honors status): 5.25% back on one category (I used the online category), 3.5% back at warehouse club/grocery stores. Used only for the respective categories.
Thank you for sharing. I did try running a search for "credit card rewards" and didn't sate my curiosity, perhaps I should have looked deeper into the forum's history.

One question for you. When would you ever use Amazon's 5% bonus when B of A offers 5.25%?

Thanks
I should have noted that the 5.25%/3.5% cash back on the BoA Cash Rewards card only applies to the first $2500 in spend per quarter. So it is more efficient for me to use the Amazon card for Amazon and the Cash Rewards card for other online, warehouse clubs, and grocery spend.

Some other clarifications:

- The Chase Freedom and Discover 5% categories have similar spend limits per quarter.

- The BoA Premium Rewards card gives 3.5% back on travel and dining (with Platinum Honors status) with no limit. Note that this card does come with a $95 annual fee. However, you can make up for that with a TSA Pre-check credit every four years and a $100/year credit for airline incidentals.

- You get the Platinum Honors status by holding $100K combined in linked BoA/Merrill Lynch accounts. Merrill Edge is their discount broker division for DIYers. You can hold the $100K in your favorite low cost ETF in ME and qualify for Platinum Honors status.

- I didn't mention this since I didn't want to muddy the waters, but I also have a Chase Sapphire Preferred card. Got this for two reasons. First, it had a very big signup bonus (100K "points"). Also, with this card, you can transfer your points to many airline frequent flyer programs which, for me, means that each point is worth 1.25 cents. You can transfer your Chase Freedom points to this card, and then use the points to buy airline tickets. This effectively makes your 5% back equal to 5 x 1.25 = 6.25%. I also use this card to pay for car rentals since it is one of the few that provides primary rental car insurance (most cards offer secondary coverage which means they cover only what your regular car insurance doesn't cover). Otherwise, I only use this card as a conduit to funnel by Chase Freedom points through, and don't charge it otherwise.
deltaneutral83
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by deltaneutral83 »

The BoA suite (with platinum honors by way of having a self directed IRA at Merrill) is without a doubt the best, no frills, simple cash back options out there. Straight and to the point. The premium rewards card + 3 of the cash rewards cards gives you a simple, 4 card lineup that pretty much crosses every "T" and dots most every "i"
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JazzTime
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by JazzTime »

THY4373 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:11 pm
JazzTime wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:06 am I gave up on airline cards long ago. Impossible to score seats on flights you actually want to take on the days you want to travel. I still have AA points that I have tried several times to score Brit Air business class seats.
Of course I am not using BA or AA points to book them since the surcharges that way are insane. My son and I are flying BA First to Zagreb next summer and flying back from Ljubljana on BA Club Suites (new business class). I lucked out with BA First on the exact date I wanted but J was pretty widely available.
Thanks for reminding me about the absurdly high surcharges for booking a BA flight with points. I also looked at purchasing a lower cabin and upgrading with points (or perhaps vice versa, I forget), but those seats are rarely available and, if available, the cost is absurdly high, making use of the points a non-starter. So if you lucked out on your flights and didn't use BA or AA points, what did you use that was "lucky"?
The difficulty with jazz is there are too many notes. (Borrowed from Emperor's critique in Amadeus)
THY4373
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by THY4373 »

JazzTime wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:51 pm Thanks for reminding me about the absurdly high surcharges for booking a BA flight with points. I also looked at purchasing a lower cabin and upgrading with points (or perhaps vice versa, I forget), but those seats are rarely available and, if available, the cost is absurdly high, making use of the points a non-starter. So if you lucked out on your flights and didn't use BA or AA points, what did you use that was "lucky"?
So to be clear "lucky" was just availability one Friday next June with two seats on BA First from my nearest real international airport to London (BA First is pretty close to unobtanium on points these days in contrast to several years ago when I'd see up to six seats available on a single flight) with the European fake business class between LHR and ZAG. This availability was was open to AA, BA, CX, QF, etc. The miles I used to book were Asia Miles (Cathay Pacific) and the surcharges for the oneway trip were about $260 per person. Very reasonable in my book for a ticket with a cash cost of $4552 at the time (half cost of round trip). The thing you have to do with BA is use various partners to price out the flights. AA is always going to charge what BA charges in my experience but other Oneworld partners will vary in what they pass along but it is highly variable based on departure and destination cities, one way vs round trip, and class selected including whether there are mixed classes. This is where you have to be willing to put in the time to experiment. I have had good luck with using Iberia to book BA and avoid some surcharges in the past as well.

For the return things were a lot tougher generally speaking as I was booking later than I normally do. Much more limited options across all alliances. Originally I had my son and I booked on AF in J from LJU to CDG to East Coast using VS points but it was a day earlier than I would have liked. They changed our LJU to CDG flight giving us a 24 hour layover in Paris. I cancelled that and got us LJU>LHR (with an overnight layover more a less a given with most cash options too)>east coast with BA J in Cub Suites on the exact date I wanted. There AM didn't really save me that much over BA but my AM points were expiring in 18 months so I used them, AM surcharges were around $262 per person one way. I think BA would have been closer to $300 per person (BA surcharges are less insane for non-US originating flights).

I consider $520 in surcharges per person round trip for F one way and J the other pretty reasonable. Others may have different opinions of course.

BA upgrades can be a good deal with BA points if you have a cheap underlying cash ticket. I had a cheap J cash fare a few years back that was only a couple of hundred more than their stupid surcharges. I upgraded to First for 30k Avios (BA points) an earned back 20k Avios on the underlying J cash ticket so net cost was 10k points. You can only go one cabin up though.
Last edited by THY4373 on Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rainier
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by Rainier »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:59 pm The BoA suite (with platinum honors by way of having a self directed IRA at Merrill) is without a doubt the best, no frills, simple cash back options out there. Straight and to the point. The premium rewards card + 3 of the cash rewards cards gives you a simple, 4 card lineup that pretty much crosses every "T" and dots most every "i"
What four cards are you using from B of A?
deltaneutral83
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Rainier wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:35 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:59 pm The BoA suite (with platinum honors by way of having a self directed IRA at Merrill) is without a doubt the best, no frills, simple cash back options out there. Straight and to the point. The premium rewards card + 3 of the cash rewards cards gives you a simple, 4 card lineup that pretty much crosses every "T" and dots most every "i"
What four cards are you using from B of A?
I don't use much besides the premium rewards as I play the points game with Chase/Amex but something simple like Premium Rewards + 3 Cash Rewards where you can choose the 5.25% category (Gas/Retail Online/Dining/Drug Stores/Home furnishings). The premium rewards is 2.625% on non categorical. All the cash rewards are also 3.5% on grocery but I do wish grocery was added to the cash rewards. The cash rewards have $2,500 spending limits per Q per card so won't make sense for high/biz spend. Naturally I'd put gas/grocery on the same Cash rewards card as gas isn't much per Q.
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by whodidntante »

The biggest payouts are always had by opening a new credit card for a sign-up bonus. It is not difficult to earn $1,000 in one shot this way, and that's going to eclipse all manner of juggling bonus categories. $300-$600 payouts are numerous. However, when being lazy, the BoA customized cash rewards combined with platinum honors is JUST SO GOOD. They also have cards that will pay 2.625% on every dollar of spend.
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by spickups09 »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:54 pm
Rainier wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:35 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:59 pm The BoA suite (with platinum honors by way of having a self directed IRA at Merrill) is without a doubt the best, no frills, simple cash back options out there. Straight and to the point. The premium rewards card + 3 of the cash rewards cards gives you a simple, 4 card lineup that pretty much crosses every "T" and dots most every "i"
What four cards are you using from B of A?
I don't use much besides the premium rewards as I play the points game with Chase/Amex but something simple like Premium Rewards + 3 Cash Rewards where you can choose the 5.25% category (Gas/Retail Online/Dining/Drug Stores/Home furnishings). The premium rewards is 2.625% on non categorical. All the cash rewards are also 3.5% on grocery but I do wish grocery was added to the cash rewards. The cash rewards have $2,500 spending limits per Q per card so won't make sense for high/biz spend. Naturally I'd put gas/grocery on the same Cash rewards card as gas isn't much per Q.
Not sure where you do your grocery spending - but we shop mostly at Kroger and we pay in-store with a CCR through the Kroger app, and this counts as "online" spending. So its worth exploring if your grocery store of choice has a similar ability to pay through an app.
deltaneutral83
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Re: Optimizing Credit Card Rewards

Post by deltaneutral83 »

spickups09 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:49 pm Not sure where you do your grocery spending - but we shop mostly at Kroger and we pay in-store with a CCR through the Kroger app, and this counts as "online" spending. So its worth exploring if your grocery store of choice has a similar ability to pay through an app.
Yea, I'm hitting a series of Chase cards on grocery at 5x UR for the next 18 months (me CFU, DW CFU, me CFF, DW CFF) on grocery but I do buy a Costco gift card online, get the 5.25% cash back on my BoA Cash Rewards rather than just pay in store. I imagine Harris teeter since it's owned by Kroger has the same setup, so thanks for the tip, I'm going to be looking into it.
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