Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

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sents13
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Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

Decided to spin off another thread discussing about my career fork in the road.

I currently work at a low-end Tier 1 tech company equivalent to L5 (Senior). I have been interviewing for L6 (Staff) roles as both IC and EM (manager). I have offers from Tier 2 companies (mostly late stage Series D+ tech startups, recently IPOed tech companies, mid-size $1-50bil tech companies, etc.) for both L6 IC and L6 EM. All levels are indexed to Google levels using levels.fyi mapping.

I am trying to figure out if I am going to double down IC vs manager path. My main goal is to maximize total compensation (TC). My goals are:
- Currently mid-30s, earning $350-400k TC as L5 doing L6-level work. I will likely hit L6 within 1 year, but my cliff is coming so no point staying. Also my employer underpays (the good TC is only because of stock appreciation).
- Hit L6 (first-level Manager, team size 5-10) by 2023 and target TC $500k+, and do a 4-year tour which by then I will be late-30s.
- Move to L7 (manager of Managers, team size 10-25) either internally or externally in 4-5 years time and target TC $750k+
- Lifetime goal is to L8 (director, team size 50+) and hit $1mil TC before I retire. Best case scenario to achieve this within 10 years, so mid-40s (or about 8 years from now - so 2 tours of 4 year each).
- I want to retire ASAP. I do like my job, but recent world events have accelerated my retirement and FIRE plans.
- I have no kids, and don't plan too. I'm a career driven person. I'm most happy earning lots of money and having big title. I prefer to have WLB, but I will gladly tradeoff for more money (provided it is sustainable, so working 50hrs/wk forever is fine by me).

Pros for IC
- Better control of my schedule, arguably better WLB
- Less politics (this was a big pro in another thread started recently)

Cons for IC
- Slower to promote
- Less openings meaning less opportunity to job hop to reindex to higher TC
- (Personal) I hate coding interviews, don't have a competitive programming background, and I likely suffer from some kind of 'coding dyslexia' that makes me naturally disadvantaged during interviews. I get confused between left/right, up/down, increasing/decreasing, positive/negative... and I cannot verbally think about code. This is not an intelligence matter, I'm not stupid btw, I have a PhD in the physical sciences, published papers in top CS conferences. This is also unrelated to my actual job where I have gotten above-average bonuses since I joined tech. This is just a I don't have a natural talent/inclination for solving coding questions because I did not spend my youth doing competitive programming.
- (Personal) I really hate coding interviews... did I mention that? It makes the interview process all about sheer luck if you have seen the question before and can remember how to do it. I got an L6 IC offer because I did 4 coding questions in 45min (10min each) because I have done all the questions before. I've flunked L5 IC positions because I have not seen the question before. A $500k job offer effectively boils down to have you solved this question in the past. Not a joke.
- (Personal) Coding interviews make my WLB worse. I have spent almost a year practicing 30hrs/wk to get to where I am today. Coding interview preparation also take time out from work, so even with better WLB, my overall WLB is worse. For example, while I work 30-40hrs/wk as an IC, I spend 30-40hrs/wk doing interview prep, so I'm effectively working 60-80hrs/wk!
- (Opinion) L6 IC is difficult to get externally, risk of getting downleveled to L5 IC, and it seems only viable if you remain in the same specialty.

Pros for Manager
- Faster to promote (provided you can grow your team)
- More openings means I can job hop to reindex to higher TC, or move to a high growth company to get a promotion before moving back
- Strategy and big picture focus, which plays to my strengths and "passion"
- (Personal) Easier coding interviews or no coding interviews. Heavy emphasis on system design interviews and behavioral interviews that I do very well based on feedback. Interview preparation is synergistic with the actual work (e.g. get more people management experience, design more systems, etc.), which leads to overall better WLB.
- (Opinion) The interview better correlates to experience and skill at the job (as it should be). Less randomness and luck involved.
- (Opinion) EM positions start off at L6, so there is no risk of getting downleveled (although you could argue if you flunk you get no offer). Because EM are generalist it is easier to move towards unrelated positions to reinvent yourself compared to IC

Cons for Manager
- Lose control of your schedule, arguably worse WLB
- More politics (how bad is this?)
- Need people management skills, which I need to improve on. (Personal) If given a choice I'd rather put in extra effort in learning how to be a great people manager and acing the EM interviews than to do dumb coding questions for acing the IC interviews.

For those in tech, particularly working for tier 1 FAANG-level companies, what is your advice? What have I not considered? My bitter experience with coding interviews have really shifted my opinion in the last 6mths. I was inclined towards IC back then, but now I will go up the EM ladder so I wont have to deal with coding interviews again.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by pseudoiterative »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 am
- Lifetime goal is to L8 (director, team size 50+) and hit $1mil TC before I retire. Best case scenario to achieve this within 10 years, so mid-40s
- I want to retire ASAP. I do like my job, but recent world events have accelerated my retirement and FIRE plans.
One thing that jumps out at me is that some of your goals are in direct conflict with each other.

If your primary goal is to retire ASAP, and all the other goals were secondary to that, then it might be the case that you could retire immediately without ever earning any more income, perhaps for a somewhat more modest retirement budget than if you keep climbing one or the other corporate ladder for another decade or three.


Maybe it's worth meditating on what you actually want, and which of your various conflicting goals take precedence.


When you retire, what do you plan to retire to?
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sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

pseudoiterative wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:49 am
sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 am
- Lifetime goal is to L8 (director, team size 50+) and hit $1mil TC before I retire. Best case scenario to achieve this within 10 years, so mid-40s
- I want to retire ASAP. I do like my job, but recent world events have accelerated my retirement and FIRE plans.
One thing that jumps out at me is that some of your goals are in direct conflict with each other.

If your primary goal is to retire ASAP, and all the other goals were secondary to that, then it might be the case that you could retire immediately without ever earning any more income, perhaps for a somewhat more modest retirement budget than if you keep climbing one or the other corporate ladder for another decade or three.

Maybe it's worth meditating on what you actually want, and which of your various conflicting goals take precedence.

When you retire, what do you plan to retire to?
I misspoke, I want to be able to retire ASAP, but I don't plan on retiring until I hit my 50s. Also, I don't want to downgrade just to retire, so I'm targeting to hit $10mil before I can officially declare I have the ability to retire. Once I hit my numbers, if my current job is good, I will keep it. If I find I need to throttle down, then I will find some slack Tier 2 position take half the pay but work half the time.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by HyperCat »

Your post seems like the only reason to choose one versus the other is work-life balance, the interview process, and whichever one will pay the most long term. Are you considering that management and IC roles have fundamentally different job responsibilities, and that you may be naturally suited to or naturally happier in one role vs the other?

Also, it always helps to keep things in perspective that the vast majority of people (myself included) will never be able to land an interview for a $500k position, so at least you're getting them even if you don't like them.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by zzxx »

IMHO: I've had a few offers in a similar vein recently. Most important thing is to get to L7 (or equivalent), IC or Manager as quickly as you can. At a large tech company you get a lot more freedom as an L7. You get to do more of the things you want to do - and also FYI: the interviews are not primarily based on coding questions. Find something you want to do though!

I also find at that level it doesn't really matter if you are a principal or manager - you need to do some engineering and some management to make sure your team accomplishes what it needs to. At present there isn't a huge difference in compensation between management and IC at most companies. If you don't have a wife and kids do the late series D startups (assuming tier 1 VC backing) - the long term returns can be a lot higher and you can get potentially better tax treatment.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by dukeblue219 »

So ah, what is an L6 or L7? Are these terms people in tech jobs would know?
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by muffins14 »

Both paths are fine, I assume. I was at a similar crossroads and decided to stay IC for now. As others noted, your IC role also starts to have more leadership, scoping, and advisory elements at the L6 level, so if you enjoy that, you don’t need to be a manager to do it, you’re expected to do it as a senior IC.

because of that expectation, it’s also covered in interviews. I think you need to get over your hatred of interviews. It’s a broken process, but it’s the process. You should be able to work through unseen problems, not expect that the reason you fail is “because you haven’t seen that exact problem before”.

As a manager, would you enjoy doing very little or zero hands-on-keyboard work? Would you enjoy talking through HR violations and spending time hiring, firing, and coaching instead of getting deep into technical problems? Building career ladders and setting role expectations?

My suggestion: operate as L6 then consider management after a few years as a “tech lead” type role
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by jebmke »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:16 am As a manager, would you enjoy doing very little or zero hands-on-keyboard work? Would you enjoy talking through HR violations and spending time hiring, firing, and coaching instead of getting deep into technical problems? Building career ladders and setting role expectations?
Over my career I saw many people flame out because they pursued a management role for the money/title. Not everyone is cut out for management, and that is OK. A better way to approach this fork is to ask one's self "if I had the chance to take on a management role without the title or compensation bump, would I do it? Would the job be interesting/challenging enough for me?"
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by srt7 »

Reading between the lines in your post my recommendation for you is to continue growing in IC role.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by carolinaman »

jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:21 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:16 am As a manager, would you enjoy doing very little or zero hands-on-keyboard work? Would you enjoy talking through HR violations and spending time hiring, firing, and coaching instead of getting deep into technical problems? Building career ladders and setting role expectations?
Over my career I saw many people flame out because they pursued a management role for the money/title. Not everyone is cut out for management, and that is OK. A better way to approach this fork is to ask one's self "if I had the chance to take on a management role without the title or compensation bump, would I do it? Would the job be interesting/challenging enough for me?"
Good point. I elected manager role early in my career and never regretted it. I had a 44 year IT career. Staff sometimes asked me about IC track versus manager track. I always asked would you rather be the boss or work for someone else as the boss. Some knew who their boss would be if they passed on the manager role, and that convinced them to take the manager role, but not always.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by canadianbacon »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 am Cons for Manager
- Need people management skills, which I need to improve on.
Sorry, this tweaked me a bit.

Please, for the love of God, do not become a manager if you do not enjoy working with people and supporting their growth. People who want to manage as a stepping stone to some other destination who don't actually give a shit about people are the absolute worst. I don't know you, but your whole post is about what's in it for you and the impact on anyone else seems to have not occurred to you at all. If you do not enjoy biweekly 1-to-1s, they are going to quickly become Chinese water torture for you, or you won't have them, which is even worse.

Sometimes people think, because they've been a strong IC to that point, that they will also be a good manager. This is not even remotely logical and tech companies feed the fallacy by the way they promote people. Your first day as a manager, no matter what else you have accomplished to that point, you are a junior manager. There's going to be learning and pain and moments of humility, and your mistakes don't just impact you, they impact the careers of other people.

Before considering this move, please think about what kind of leader you want to be, and what example you can set that people would want to follow. It's not about being (or thinking you are) the smartest designer or the alpha programmer. It's about supporting the growth and success of other people, selling the company vision to them, selling your team to the rest of your company, POLITICS, sometimes eating shit because the big picture calls for it, difficult conversations, and so on. I recommend talking to the person or people who you have respected the most as a manager, find out what they honestly think of the idea, and get their insights into what you should do to be successful in such a role. Get a mentor. Find out what's really involved and the price you'll have to pay to not suck. If you don't want to do all that, stay IC... honestly you're killing it right now and I think if you continue doing work that engages you at your comp level, you will be just fine.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by random_walker_77 »

dukeblue219 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:06 am So ah, what is an L6 or L7? Are these terms people in tech jobs would know?
Yes, at least amongst software engineers at large tech companies. Large corporations try to keep salaries fair across the company by standardizing performance/seniority levels. That's nothing new.

In tech, companies name it slightly differently, but sw folks in tech know Google's well-known levels.

See https://www.levels.fyi/
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:16 am As a manager, would you enjoy doing very little or zero hands-on-keyboard work? Would you enjoy talking through HR violations and spending time hiring, firing, and coaching instead of getting deep into technical problems? Building career ladders and setting role expectations?

My suggestion: operate as L6 then consider management after a few years as a “tech lead” type role
Yes, I have no issues not doing hands-on keyboard work. I don't have an obsessive need to code. I also prefer to deal with problems at the high level.

For dealing with HR nonsense, that's part of the job so I would rate it as neutral. Hiring/firing/coaching is not an issue too because that grows my team. Defining scope and setting expectations, definitely up for it.

My original career path was to be a professor, and from that perspective I've always wanted to be a manager not IC.
canadianbacon wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:08 am Before considering this move, please think about what kind of leader you want to be, and what example you can set that people would want to follow. It's not about being (or thinking you are) the smartest designer or the alpha programmer. It's about supporting the growth and success of other people, selling the company vision to them, selling your team to the rest of your company, POLITICS, sometimes eating shit because the big picture calls for it, difficult conversations, and so on. I recommend talking to the person or people who you have respected the most as a manager, find out what they honestly think of the idea, and get their insights into what you should do to be successful in such a role. Get a mentor. Find out what's really involved and the price you'll have to pay to not suck. If you don't want to do all that, stay IC... honestly you're killing it right now and I think if you continue doing work that engages you at your comp level, you will be just fine.
Of course my career interests are centered around me, why would they not be? But you're assuming that because I am focused on my career I won't help others? The job of the manager is grow the team, and so if growing my career means growing others... what's the contradiction?

So no issues with growing people (I like Empire building), no issues with selling vision/team. Politics... that's the big unknown for me, I don't know how bad it gets. Eating shit and taking one for the team... not fun, but why you do think it doesn't apply to IC? Difficult conversations... well I do not get emotionally attached to people so it wouldn't bother me.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by 126inc »

post on blind and get answers from the crowd you're looking for feedback from
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by Tamarind »

HyperCat wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:47 am Your post seems like the only reason to choose one versus the other is work-life balance, the interview process, and whichever one will pay the most long term. Are you considering that management and IC roles have fundamentally different job responsibilities, and that you may be naturally suited to or naturally happier in one role vs the other?

Also, it always helps to keep things in perspective that the vast majority of people (myself included) will never be able to land an interview for a $500k position, so at least you're getting them even if you don't like them.
+1
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by KlangFool »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:18 am
I misspoke, I want to be able to retire ASAP, but I don't plan on retiring until I hit my 50s. Also, I don't want to downgrade just to retire, so I'm targeting to hit $10mil before I can officially declare I have the ability to retire. Once I hit my numbers, if my current job is good, I will keep it. If I find I need to throttle down, then I will find some slack Tier 2 position take half the pay but work half the time.
sents13,

<<I want to be able to retire ASAP, but I don't plan on retiring until I hit my 50s.>>

ASAP is not the same as until you hit mid 50s.

<<Also, I don't want to downgrade just to retire, >>

What is your annual expense?

<<so I'm targeting to hit $10mil before I can officially declare I have the ability to retire.>>

Why 10 million is the number? Is it based on what annual expense? 400K per year?

If your current annual expense is 100K per year and your 10 million is based on annual expense of 400K per year, you are actually planning to upgrade your lifestyle when you retire.

<<Once I hit my numbers, if my current job is good, I will keep it. >>

What is good? Do you mean that you have nothing better to do with your life except working?

<< If I find I need to throttle down, then I will find some slack Tier 2 position take half the pay but work half the time.>>

Why? If you have 10 millions, most of your pay will ended up in taxes. Are you willing to work for almost free? That 10 millions could generate about 200K of taxable income just from dividend and distribution.

IMHO, you need more time to think about what actually you want out of your life.

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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by KlangFool »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:29 am
Hiring/firing/coaching is not an issue too because that grows my team. Defining scope and setting expectations, definitely up for it.
sents13,

How do you know that? Have you ever play a team sport? Have you ever lead a team? Do you ever mentor/coach someone?

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Topic Author
sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

KlangFool wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:59 am
sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:29 am
Hiring/firing/coaching is not an issue too because that grows my team. Defining scope and setting expectations, definitely up for it.
sents13,

How do you know that? Have you ever play a team sport? Have you ever lead a team? Do you ever mentor/coach someone?

KlangFool
I've been mentoring/coaching people since grad school, and have been lead (either unofficial or official capacity) since my first job. So yes...

When I talk to my mentors about this, level L6+ "requirements" mainly include setting strategy/vision and growing people both of which I have a strong track record. The only reservation I have about EM is people management because I don't have sufficient experience in pure people management, which is not the same thing as I am bad at it.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by fortunefavored »

I'd throw in risk as a decision factor. The risk going the management track is higher. As people pointed out.. you may not be good at it. You may have bad luck in landing in the wrong department/team. You know you're good at your job right now, that's incredibly valuable.

If you can code, you're going to have a solid job.. after 4 years and washing out as a manager.. well you'll probably still be able to get a job if you can remember how to code.. but it'll be tougher. Especially if you're not in sync with whatever the stupid coding-interview monkey tricks are required at that time. And those 4 years might be miserable.

I was a very good people manager, and it was still rough. Everything is far more intangible and fuzzy. Nothing is definitive and often around managing perception vs. reality. Sure, you may land a 50/50 tech manager role.. but that isn't going to lead to the megabucks you seek.

How are your people relationships? do you have a wide network? do people love working with you? do execs (or near execs in a division) seek out your opinions and thoughts? You also need that kind of clout to be a successful director+
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sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

KlangFool wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:56 am
<<I want to be able to retire ASAP, but I don't plan on retiring until I hit my 50s.>>

ASAP is not the same as until you hit mid 50s.
Have to explain again. "I want to be able to retire ASAP" means I want to have the ability to walk away should things go south. "But I don't plan on retiring until I hit my 50s" means if I'm lucky and things don't go south, I want to keep working.
KlangFool wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:56 am <<Also, I don't want to downgrade just to retire, >>

What is your annual expense?

<<so I'm targeting to hit $10mil before I can officially declare I have the ability to retire.>>

Why 10 million is the number? Is it based on what annual expense? 400K per year?

If your current annual expense is 100K per year and your 10 million is based on annual expense of 400K per year, you are actually planning to upgrade your lifestyle when you retire.
I'm only spending $50k/yr living in HCOL city and have been spending at that level since I graduated. But my current expense is not what I want for myself. I'm getting frustrated for having a good career and not being able to enjoy myself financially. My retirement target is to spend $100k/yr in 2010 dollars, so after accounting for inflation will be $250-300k/yr when I'm in my 60s+. Using 3% rule (4% is too optimistic) and some buffer, I need $10mil (the original number was like $8mil but I rounded up for future healthcare costs). Once I get $10mil, or to be really specific once I get enough assets and I can project them to grow to $10mil when I hit age 65 without saving an additional cent, then I will be able to blow my entire paycheck like a real American... that is my goal in life, to actually enjoy myself. So in short, I want to upgrade my lifestyle. I'm almost 40 and I'm still living in financial misery.
KlangFool wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:56 am <<Once I hit my numbers, if my current job is good, I will keep it. >>

What is good? Do you mean that you have nothing better to do with your life except working?
Good means that I am happy/content with my job. Yes, I don't have anything better to do. When I retire I haven't thought about what I will do. I like the idea of coaching others, so maybe I'll be a career coach since it's my favorite topic.
KlangFool wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:56 am<< If I find I need to throttle down, then I will find some slack Tier 2 position take half the pay but work half the time.>>

Why? If you have 10 millions, most of your pay will ended up in taxes. Are you willing to work for almost free? That 10 millions could generate about 200K of taxable income just from dividend and distribution.

IMHO, you need more time to think about what actually you want out of your life.
Unless there is a wealth tax, a $10mil portfolio will generate no tax except for income from 1099-INT and 1099-DIV. Your W-2 taxes don't go up based on your assets. Also the $10mil is for when I really retire at age 65, not for when I choose to retire earlier before that.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

fortunefavored wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:24 am I'd throw in risk as a decision factor. The risk going the management track is higher. As people pointed out.. you may not be good at it. You may have bad luck in landing in the wrong department/team. You know you're good at your job right now, that's incredibly valuable.

If you can code, you're going to have a solid job.. after 4 years and washing out as a manager.. well you'll probably still be able to get a job if you can remember how to code.. but it'll be tougher. Especially if you're not in sync with whatever the stupid coding-interview monkey tricks are required at that time. And those 4 years might be miserable.

I was a very good people manager, and it was still rough. Everything is far more intangible and fuzzy. Nothing is definitive and often around managing perception vs. reality. Sure, you may land a 50/50 tech manager role.. but that isn't going to lead to the megabucks you seek.

How are your people relationships? do you have a wide network? do people love working with you? do execs (or near execs in a division) seek out your opinions and thoughts? You also need that kind of clout to be a successful director+
That's an important factor that I missed out. Will need to reconsider. If I go EM, it will likely be a 50/50 tech manager role of team size under 10, because no way I would get hired to manage large teams out of the box. I've only had formal people management experience of about 5 people.

My success at managing people/relationships have been mixed success. I have been unable to determine if it's me or my environment.

My first career during grad school was great. Had a wide network, established lots of collaboration, lead a team towards the end of my tenure and was sought out for expertise as a SME. However, when I looked back I now attribute my success to a good environment, where everyone is driven, ambitious and high-powered, so getting people on board didn't require much work because they were already on board.

My next career was in a govt lab was a mixed bag. Networking and collaboration effect was not as good, but I attribute it to the system the lab had in place. Basically, people were discouraged to work together unless they had research grants together, coupled with the short-term nature of our funding system, meant that people could only think about today and not about tomorrow... and relationships became very transactional to the point of: "Are we going to write a grant to fund our salaries for next year? If no, nice meeting you, but I have better things to do". After a rough first year, I found a team that I worked well with and then I went on to do great work. Also led teams there, and received very positive feedback from manager and peers.

My current career is also a mixed bag. Networking and cross-team relationship could be better, but I attribute it to too many deadwoods within the org (people just showing up to collect money and do the bare minimum). Very good success in leading my team, no attrition/morale issues, but mixed success in getting other teams and the org to move in the direction I want. There is progress, but it's glacially slow. For example, I was championing a workstyle change for the org to improve cross-team collaboration... management agreed and it's been almost 1 year and we're still working on it.

My overall self-assessment is a solid B. It's not A because I can't get my org to line up with me, but it's not a C because the sky is not falling.
Last edited by sents13 on Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by softwaregeek »

Fundamentally different jobs.

As manager you need political chops to get past first level manager. By the time you get to second level you need to be good at it, at least in my experience. Successful engineering managers have to manage low performers, deal with whiners (10% of employees at ANY organization are a PITA) and EVERYONE thinks they should be a level higher or get a bigger paycheck, regardless of performance. (In fact, in my experience the lower the performer, the higher they believe their performance is). You need to retain your employees, create personal loyalty in case you want to take your team with you later on and also manage upwards to get more guys while outperforming your promises.

If you can deal with this you will be fine. If not, crash and burn.

Source: Currently VP at megacorp after senior role at tech startup that got bought. Spent most of my career as an IC.
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sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

softwaregeek wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am Fundamentally different jobs.

As manager you need political chops to get past first level manager. By the time you get to second level you need to be good at it, at least in my experience. Successful engineering managers have to manage low performers, deal with whiners (10% of employees at ANY organization are a PITA) and EVERYONE thinks they should be a level higher or get a bigger paycheck, regardless of performance. (In fact, in my experience the lower the performer, the higher they believe their performance is). You need to retain your employees, create personal loyalty in case you want to take your team with you later on and also manage upwards to get more guys while outperforming your promises.

If you can deal with this you will be fine. If not, crash and burn.

Source: Currently VP at megacorp after senior role at tech startup that got bought. Spent most of my career as an IC.
It sounds like if you don't have the politics skill, you will be glass ceiling at just first level manager with no path for career advancement?
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canadianbacon
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by canadianbacon »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:49 am It sounds like if you don't have the politics skill, you will be glass ceiling at just first level manager with no path for career advancement?
It's often the peers of your boss and your boss' boss who decide who replaces your boss.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
KlangFool
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by KlangFool »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:33 am
Unless there is a wealth tax, a $10mil portfolio will generate no tax except for income from 1099-INT and 1099-DIV. Your W-2 taxes don't go up based on your assets. Also the $10mil is for when I really retire at age 65, not for when I choose to retire earlier before that.
sents13,

2% (1099-INT and 1099-DIV) income from 10 millions = 200K per year.

<< Also the $10mil is for when I really retire at age 65, not for when I choose to retire earlier before that.>>

What if you reach 10 million way before then?

<< I'm only spending $50k/yr living in HCOL city and have been spending at that level since I graduated. But my current expense is not what I want for myself. I'm getting frustrated for having a good career and not being able to enjoy myself financially>>

If you have nothing to do besides working, how would you know you could enjoy spending more money?

Please note that the law of diminishing return. Most people spend more of their money on the house instead of more experience. As per research data, the maximum happiness is reached around 70K to 80K per year of expense for most people.

I have no answer. But, I think you should ask yourself more question. The biggest question should be what makes you happy. What really matters to you?

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by twh »

Mid-30's, no responsibilities - fInd a good startup. You will have fun again and the lottery tickets may pay off.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by KlangFool »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:45 am
My success at managing people/relationships have been mixed success. I have been unable to determine if it's me or my environment.
sents13,

It is you.

Some people can achieve co-operation and team work across any environment. Some people can only achieve co-operation and team work if the environment is good enough. Most people are some where in between.

You just need to decide what works for you.

Please check out the following book.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends- ... 0671027034
<< How to Win Friends & Influence People Paperback – October 1, 1998
by Dale Carnegie>>

KlangFool
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by keith6014 »

stay with your job and find a hobby.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by softwaregeek »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:49 am
softwaregeek wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am Fundamentally different jobs.

As manager you need political chops to get past first level manager. By the time you get to second level you need to be good at it, at least in my experience. Successful engineering managers have to manage low performers, deal with whiners (10% of employees at ANY organization are a PITA) and EVERYONE thinks they should be a level higher or get a bigger paycheck, regardless of performance. (In fact, in my experience the lower the performer, the higher they believe their performance is). You need to retain your employees, create personal loyalty in case you want to take your team with you later on and also manage upwards to get more guys while outperforming your promises.

If you can deal with this you will be fine. If not, crash and burn.

Source: Currently VP at megacorp after senior role at tech startup that got bought. Spent most of my career as an IC.
It sounds like if you don't have the politics skill, you will be glass ceiling at just first level manager with no path for career advancement?
Yes. I suck at politics and my career stalled out at first level until I was able to tie myself to a superstar as "his guy" and get pulled up in his wake.That is the other way to do it. Was first level manager, got called by an old work friend to be the first guy at the startup to build out a group handling a key function, ended up as a megacorp VP when the startup got bought a couple of years later. Now I have value to the new company, but my real value on the open market is as a team of four or five, who might come with me as a prepackaged group. It's pretty rare in fact that I have seen a senior hire who doesn't bring along at least a few people.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by mikejuss »

keith6014 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:40 pm stay with your job and find a hobby.
+1 (and cool it on the acronyms).
50% VTSAX | 25% VTIAX | 25% VBTLX (retirement), 25% VTEAX (taxable)
gogreen
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by gogreen »

carolinaman wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 am
jebmke wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:21 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:16 am As a manager, would you enjoy doing very little or zero hands-on-keyboard work? Would you enjoy talking through HR violations and spending time hiring, firing, and coaching instead of getting deep into technical problems? Building career ladders and setting role expectations?
Over my career I saw many people flame out because they pursued a management role for the money/title. Not everyone is cut out for management, and that is OK. A better way to approach this fork is to ask one's self "if I had the chance to take on a management role without the title or compensation bump, would I do it? Would the job be interesting/challenging enough for me?"
I elected manager role early in my career and never regretted it. I had a 44 year IT career.
Keeping in mind 'retire ASAP' part of the original post I'd consider your scenario as a failure :twisted:
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by softwaregeek »

I have never regretted going the manager route either.

To put it bluntly, manager's get treated better at 99% of companies, (unless you are, say, a Senior Fellow at IBM or Intel).

Previously worked at a tech company where there were different travel rules for managers. Director and above got the four seasons hotel and domestic first class. Below that, the sheraton and economy. Lower wage employees from overseas got literally the motel 6.
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sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

softwaregeek wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:04 pm
sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:49 am
softwaregeek wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:46 am Fundamentally different jobs.

As manager you need political chops to get past first level manager. By the time you get to second level you need to be good at it, at least in my experience. Successful engineering managers have to manage low performers, deal with whiners (10% of employees at ANY organization are a PITA) and EVERYONE thinks they should be a level higher or get a bigger paycheck, regardless of performance. (In fact, in my experience the lower the performer, the higher they believe their performance is). You need to retain your employees, create personal loyalty in case you want to take your team with you later on and also manage upwards to get more guys while outperforming your promises.

If you can deal with this you will be fine. If not, crash and burn.

Source: Currently VP at megacorp after senior role at tech startup that got bought. Spent most of my career as an IC.
It sounds like if you don't have the politics skill, you will be glass ceiling at just first level manager with no path for career advancement?
Yes. I suck at politics and my career stalled out at first level until I was able to tie myself to a superstar as "his guy" and get pulled up in his wake.That is the other way to do it. Was first level manager, got called by an old work friend to be the first guy at the startup to build out a group handling a key function, ended up as a megacorp VP when the startup got bought a couple of years later. Now I have value to the new company, but my real value on the open market is as a team of four or five, who might come with me as a prepackaged group. It's pretty rare in fact that I have seen a senior hire who doesn't bring along at least a few people.
Thanks for the candid insight. I will need to figure out if I would be ok being a "mediocre" manager with no chance of advancing should that happens vs staying on the IC track.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by gogreen »

softwaregeek wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:06 pm

Previously worked at a tech company where there were different travel rules for managers. Director and above got the four seasons hotel and domestic first class. Below that, the sheraton and economy. Lower wage employees from overseas got literally the motel 6.
Just WOW. Have been travelling few times being a part of 3 different companies. Every time I stayed at the same hotel with my manager and we had dinner at the same place. Can't even imagine a moral hit when your manager goes to a higher band hotel :oops:
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by quantAndHold »

Let’s see…all I can really talk about is my own experience.

My experience is that it’s possible, at least early on, to move back and forth between IC and 1st level manager. Doing this within your present company is much easier than trying to switch roles at the same time you change companies. If you think you might want to manage, i would look for an internal transfer and try it out.

Companies, especially larger ones will, if you ask, send you to training to develop management skills. The large company you work at probably has internal training already. If you find yourself in a role as a new manager, ask for this.

My experience was that at L6, the interviews for IC and manager were pretty similar. Maybe a little lighter on the algorithms and coding, but not much. The companies we’re talking about still want their first level managers to be able to code. So switching to management won’t help you pass interviews, at least not right away. Coding interviews are a crapshoot for nearly everyone, btw. I found when I got to L6 that some companies became more forgiving of my inability to write clean code on a whiteboard. Other companies didn’t. I finally accepted that I would never work at the ones that didn’t.

The other thing is a real analysis of where your skills are. I realized for myself, that I enjoyed tech and being an IC, but from a career perspective, I was never, ever going to get to L7 as an IC, but I was a pretty good manager and probably could get to L7 as a manager. That being the case, then the next question was, “is it okay if I never get past L6?”

I think the big thing you have to answer for yourself is “what do you want to *do* 2000 hours per year for the next 15 years?”

The other thing is why $10m? Someone who is frugal enough that they’re only spending $50k at mid-career living in a HCOL location is never, ever going to be able to open up the purse strings to be able to spend more than a small fraction of that $10m. Having a pile of money in the bank just to have a lot of zeros on the statements is useless. I always thought of the big bank balance as something that allowed me to make life decisions for reasons that weren’t always financial. I went back to being an IC in my mid-40’s, after a decade in management, because I didn’t really care how much money I made anymore. It was nice to have that freedom.
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sents13
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by sents13 »

quantAndHold wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:59 pm Let’s see…all I can really talk about is my own experience.

My experience is that it’s possible, at least early on, to move back and forth between IC and 1st level manager. Doing this within your present company is much easier than trying to switch roles at the same time you change companies. If you think you might want to manage, i would look for an internal transfer and try it out.

Companies, especially larger ones will, if you ask, send you to training to develop management skills. The large company you work at probably has internal training already. If you find yourself in a role as a new manager, ask for this.

My experience was that at L6, the interviews for IC and manager were pretty similar. Maybe a little lighter on the algorithms and coding, but not much. The companies we’re talking about still want their first level managers to be able to code. So switching to management won’t help you pass interviews, at least not right away. Coding interviews are a crapshoot for nearly everyone, btw. I found when I got to L6 that some companies became more forgiving of my inability to write clean code on a whiteboard. Other companies didn’t. I finally accepted that I would never work at the ones that didn’t.

The other thing is a real analysis of where your skills are. I realized for myself, that I enjoyed tech and being an IC, but from a career perspective, I was never, ever going to get to L7 as an IC, but I was a pretty good manager and probably could get to L7 as a manager. That being the case, then the next question was, “is it okay if I never get past L6?”

I think the big thing you have to answer for yourself is “what do you want to *do* 2000 hours per year for the next 15 years?”

The other thing is why $10m? Someone who is frugal enough that they’re only spending $50k at mid-career living in a HCOL location is never, ever going to be able to open up the purse strings to be able to spend more than a small fraction of that $10m. Having a pile of money in the bank just to have a lot of zeros on the statements is useless. I always thought of the big bank balance as something that allowed me to make life decisions for reasons that weren’t always financial. I went back to being an IC in my mid-40’s, after a decade in management, because I didn’t really care how much money I made anymore. It was nice to have that freedom.
Awesome advice thanks! I actually did what you suggested, shortly after I joined big tech and have been 50/50 IC/Manager for a while now (formally manager, but team size was under 5 until recently). We had manager training, but it was a waste of time. It was mostly fluff. I found better content reading books about leadership and management.

I've also chatted with people further along in my career and I was surprised that they said the same thing as you... that first-level manager and IC is a revolving door and you don't really go past the point of no return until you are 100% people management which is usually a team of larger than 10. I'm not fully confident I can make L7 IC in a big tech company... maybe as a lifetime achievement not but within the next 5-10 years. You career path may also work for me, I would be ok going back to being a simple L5 IC once I have made enough money (assuming that I really don't enjoy being a manager), but historically I've always wanted more scope and responsibility, so I don't see that happening soon.

$10mil comes from $250k/yr at age 65 (which is $100k/yr in 2010 dollars), with 3% rule.. bumps it to $8mil, and round off to $10mil for healthcare expenses and a home (I've been renting and don't plan to buy a home till I retire so will need about $1mil cash for a home). I actually take a lot of comfort by having a big pile of money. For example, when COVID-19 hit, I would have been freaking out over losing my job, but that's only because I have almost $1mil saved up from the last decade. I've gotten past the anxiety of not having enough money if I lose my job, my main anxiety today is how will losing my job affect my career growth trajectory.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by softwaregeek »

One word of warning: I have seen many, many posts that follow the same script:

"I am a high earning Engineer/Lawyer/Doctor and I spend $40k every year in Silicon Valley so I can retire ASAP but now I'm 42 and I can't bear to go into work another day, should I take a job at Starbucks next week".

Don't be this guy. It is a classic thing I see on this board. Spend what you need to take care of your mental health and make your life better. You don't need to go overboard, but denying yourself a decent and fun life will backfire.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by wfrobinette »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 am Decided to spin off another thread discussing about my career fork in the road.

I currently work at a low-end Tier 1 tech company equivalent to L5 (Senior). I have been interviewing for L6 (Staff) roles as both IC and EM (manager). I have offers from Tier 2 companies (mostly late stage Series D+ tech startups, recently IPOed tech companies, mid-size $1-50bil tech companies, etc.) for both L6 IC and L6 EM. All levels are indexed to Google levels using levels.fyi mapping.

I am trying to figure out if I am going to double down IC vs manager path. My main goal is to maximize total compensation (TC). My goals are:
- Currently mid-30s, earning $350-400k TC as L5 doing L6-level work. I will likely hit L6 within 1 year, but my cliff is coming so no point staying. Also my employer underpays (the good TC is only because of stock appreciation).
- Hit L6 (first-level Manager, team size 5-10) by 2023 and target TC $500k+, and do a 4-year tour which by then I will be late-30s.
- Move to L7 (manager of Managers, team size 10-25) either internally or externally in 4-5 years time and target TC $750k+
- Lifetime goal is to L8 (director, team size 50+) and hit $1mil TC before I retire. Best case scenario to achieve this within 10 years, so mid-40s (or about 8 years from now - so 2 tours of 4 year each).
- I want to retire ASAP. I do like my job, but recent world events have accelerated my retirement and FIRE plans.
- I have no kids, and don't plan too. I'm a career driven person. I'm most happy earning lots of money and having big title. I prefer to have WLB, but I will gladly tradeoff for more money (provided it is sustainable, so working 50hrs/wk forever is fine by me).

Pros for IC
- Better control of my schedule, arguably better WLB
- Less politics (this was a big pro in another thread started recently)

Cons for IC
- Slower to promote
- Less openings meaning less opportunity to job hop to reindex to higher TC
- (Personal) I hate coding interviews, don't have a competitive programming background, and I likely suffer from some kind of 'coding dyslexia' that makes me naturally disadvantaged during interviews. I get confused between left/right, up/down, increasing/decreasing, positive/negative... and I cannot verbally think about code. This is not an intelligence matter, I'm not stupid btw, I have a PhD in the physical sciences, published papers in top CS conferences. This is also unrelated to my actual job where I have gotten above-average bonuses since I joined tech. This is just a I don't have a natural talent/inclination for solving coding questions because I did not spend my youth doing competitive programming.
- (Personal) I really hate coding interviews... did I mention that? It makes the interview process all about sheer luck if you have seen the question before and can remember how to do it. I got an L6 IC offer because I did 4 coding questions in 45min (10min each) because I have done all the questions before. I've flunked L5 IC positions because I have not seen the question before. A $500k job offer effectively boils down to have you solved this question in the past. Not a joke.
- (Personal) Coding interviews make my WLB worse. I have spent almost a year practicing 30hrs/wk to get to where I am today. Coding interview preparation also take time out from work, so even with better WLB, my overall WLB is worse. For example, while I work 30-40hrs/wk as an IC, I spend 30-40hrs/wk doing interview prep, so I'm effectively working 60-80hrs/wk!
- (Opinion) L6 IC is difficult to get externally, risk of getting downleveled to L5 IC, and it seems only viable if you remain in the same specialty.

Pros for Manager
- Faster to promote (provided you can grow your team)
- More openings means I can job hop to reindex to higher TC, or move to a high growth company to get a promotion before moving back
- Strategy and big picture focus, which plays to my strengths and "passion"
- (Personal) Easier coding interviews or no coding interviews. Heavy emphasis on system design interviews and behavioral interviews that I do very well based on feedback. Interview preparation is synergistic with the actual work (e.g. get more people management experience, design more systems, etc.), which leads to overall better WLB.
- (Opinion) The interview better correlates to experience and skill at the job (as it should be). Less randomness and luck involved.
- (Opinion) EM positions start off at L6, so there is no risk of getting downleveled (although you could argue if you flunk you get no offer). Because EM are generalist it is easier to move towards unrelated positions to reinvent yourself compared to IC

Cons for Manager
- Lose control of your schedule, arguably worse WLB
- More politics (how bad is this?)
- Need people management skills, which I need to improve on. (Personal) If given a choice I'd rather put in extra effort in learning how to be a great people manager and acing the EM interviews than to do dumb coding questions for acing the IC interviews.

For those in tech, particularly working for tier 1 FAANG-level companies, what is your advice? What have I not considered? My bitter experience with coding interviews have really shifted my opinion in the last 6mths. I was inclined towards IC back then, but now I will go up the EM ladder so I wont have to deal with coding interviews again.
Leadership is a life-long learning endeavor. Learning what to do is easy. Applying it is where the difficulty comes into play. The worse thing about management is dealing with the employees and the BS that they bring to the table. They all want a promotion; they all think they are exceeding expectations and they all want a bigger paycheck. Don't get me wrong I love managing people but some of it can be quite exhausting.

The one thing to remember the higher up the ladder the more you will work and the more BS you have to deal with.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by milktoast »

I'm an L8 IC at FAANG and I've been a director as well.

From my perspective, the coaching, mentoring, politics, etc. exist on both tracks. Honestly the politics on the technical side can be much more brutal and longer lasting because it usually isn't resolved via org change like manager conflicts.

The question really comes down to where your passion and skills lie. Are you energized by helping more junior engineers understand the customer, the code and how to create code that delivers value to customer? That's the IC path. Are you energized by hiring into the team, finding appropriate mentors for your team, helping your team be recognized and compensated? That's the manager path.

But L6 is the end of the road for being passionate about your contributions. L7+ is all about team growth and leadership, it's just a different type of leadership on the two paths.
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Re: Fork in Road: Manager vs IC in Tech

Post by mkc »

sents13 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:43 pm
Thanks for the candid insight. I will need to figure out if I would be ok being a "mediocre" manager with no chance of advancing should that happens vs staying on the IC track.
As you are weighing this, think about the times as an IC you had a "mediocre" (at best) manager. How was your job satisfaction and confidence in your direct manager? How motivated were you to go above and beyond for that manager?
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