Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

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LongTermHorizon
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Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by LongTermHorizon »

So my wife and I have been trying to have children with IVF for 5 years, and finally we learned in early November that the wife is pregnant with fraternal female twins!
  • Life Achievement Unlocked!
We put in two embryos because we figured it could be a buy 1 get 1 free deal (just kidding, sorta).

We are incredibly excited about finally becoming parents, but now the reality of having twin girls is well becoming a reality. I shutter to think about 2 proms, 2 boyfriends, 2 colleges, and 2 weddings, but let’s not borrow trouble from tomorrow.
So here we are trying to make the best decision for our family, and we are hoping several bogle heads can help us make a wise financial course of action. As Jack always said, “Stay the course”.

We both are originally from the Midwest (husband Cleveland Ohio, wife St. Louis) and we currently live north of Boston, in Peabody, MA. We drive every year for a 3-5 week work remote (since covid) summer trip to stay with the wife’s parents in Camdenton Missouri.
Husband works for a major MAMAA firm as a senior director, and the wife works for a large medical book publishing company in Marketing.
The wife has been with her company for about 3 years and has been working from home due to Covid since January 2020.
Husband recently (October) changed jobs from Salesforce to a MAMAA firm, and it’s recently come out that his position will be remote for the foreseeable future, with either monthly week trips to Seattle or San Francisco. He may in the future be offered a corporate relocation to either Seattle or San Francisco, but that’s far from certain and both are not desirable.

Ages:
  • Husband: Age 39
  • Wife: Age 35
Financials:
Home:
North of Boston, house (1300 sq fully renovated except for roof) is worth ~$785,000 (4 houses have sold in our area for this, same floor plan without updates from the 1970s) and remaining mortgage is $285,000 at 15 years at 1.75%. We’ve had people unsolicited offer us cash for our house and repeatedly turn them down.
Employment:
  • Wife: 95k (can work remote) + (future 100k RSUs)
  • Husband: 225k (can work remote) + (future 300k RSUs)
Retirement:
  • Husband: 401k - $565,000
  • Wife: 401k – $225,000
  • Both max out - 401ks every year
Investments (Stock + Index funds) – $340,000


So here’s the question:
What sort of financial calculus should we consider for the following scenario, move to Lake of the Ozarks:
  • We sell our house for a net $ 450k (after fees 50k, and mortgage paid off)
    Buy a 550k-650k 4,000k sq house built in 2017 (we know the owner—older couple looking to move to Florida), in Camdenton, Missouri (Lake of the Ozarks)
    Benefits:
    • Grand parents have offered to sweeten the 529 plans by an additional 100k per girl if we move back.
    • Move to be closer to my wife’s parents in Camdenton, MO. (Her parents would love to be closer to their grandkids and would provide childcare we have a contract in writing for 2-3 days of childcare till age 5).
    • Wife would be able to continue to work!
    • We are both active in our church north of Boston so we’d welcome being back in the bible belt.
    • Star as extras in the show: Lake of the Ozarks?
    Cons:
    • My firm informed me that my salary would be cut in half to $112,500 for cost of living adjustments!
    • Medical Care in Boston is incredible.
    • Job Opportunities are plentiful (and husband could in the next 5 years easily double/triple compensation)
    • Travel time to Springfield MO for flights to Seattle or San Fran would be 1.5 hours away.
    Or what sort of financial calculus should we consider if we stay in Boston :
    • Redoing our roof next summer for $50k and start looking for a bigger home for a year from now (house price would be $900k - $1mil).
    • Wife has to quit her job to be a stay-at-home mom. Husband working from home too, so space will be tight!
    • Have to consider moving to a bigger house in 1-2 years (gulp).
    Thank you Bogle heads for your wise guidance!
Last edited by LongTermHorizon on Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
runninginvestor
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by runninginvestor »

Do you have to move before they are born?

I'd weigh the availability of children's hospitals quality and vicinity of each location. Not to get too into medical stuff, but I recall reading in the past that IVF can increase certain risk factors. Of course I pray that you and your new family are healthy! Just having better children's hospitals nearby would be a nice backstop for the first year or two.

Otherwise, having family around for childcare can be amazing (or terrible depending on the family! ).
KESP
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by KESP »

I think this is one of those money isn’t everything decisions. My niece had twins, it is hard. She depended heavily on family to provide a break and support, especially when they were babies. Looks like you even have a house lined up. I doubt the people will want to wait until you have the baby before selling you their house. Explore the hospitals in the area and see how they are for medical care. Full disclosure, I am a grandmother so my vote is to move closer to the grandparents. :D .
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Stinky
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by Stinky »

I was sold on the idea of your moving until I hit the place where your employer would cut your salary by 50%. Really?

You indicate that you could double or triple your salary in the next 5 years as one of the “pros” of staying in Boston. Is that salary progression also possible in Missouri?

BTW, we had fraternal twins many years ago. We loved it! And I expect that you will too. (But don’t count on much sleep in the first year).
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
random_walker_77
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by random_walker_77 »

Congrats, but don't get too far ahead of yourselves. The two of you should take it easy and make sure the wife is well-supported. Especially if you're still in the first trimester, try to limit the pressures and stresses, and hope for a safe and healthy pair of babies. It sounds like it's still early on in the pregnancy, and the last thing you want to do is make life-changing decisions premised on what ought to happen over the next 8 months for if the desired outcome doesn't happen, every day in the new locale would be a painful reminder of what might've been.

The 50% paycut sounds extreme, but is that going to apply to future RSU grants too? In the shorter term, existing RSUs keep vesting, so it's more like a 20% paycut, right?

Kids are life-changing, and having family support when they're young is so very helpful. Money isn't everything, and priorities tend to change when you have kids. Case in point, your feeling about houses starts to become much more cognizant of school districts and specific schools. How're the schools associated with that potential house?
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Beensabu
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by Beensabu »

Congrats! Maybe just figure out how you're going to sleep? For real. Forget the rest. Sleep schedule. Very important. Figure it out.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
Dusn
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by Dusn »

My only focus would be on just making it through the first year
FarmWife
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by FarmWife »

Your salary would be cut in half? Find out what they are basing their cost of living info on. Not everything is 50% cheaper in Missouri. See if that is negotiable and find some supporting material to back up your request. That feels like a stab in the back.
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celia
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by celia »

This plan doesn’t sound thought-out. Yes, you’re excited about the future kids but seem to be making irrational choices. If you weren’t expecting, would you be making these same plans now?

First is the pregnancy. Your wife may soon be too tired to do much, let alone prepare to move. There were days when I came home from work, while pregnant, and went right to bed. Your wife’s body will change so much as the “growing” increases. Hormones change. Uncomfortable sleeping. Center of balance shifts. Needs to be near a bathroom. . .

Why do you want to buy that Camdenton house at this time? Right now you don’t even know what your housing needs will be in a year from now. And you may not know if the promised “babysitters” will be able to commute to there every day or two. Maybe one of you will want to stay home with the little ones once you meet them.
LongTermHorizon wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:50 pm We both are originally from the Midwest (husband Cleveland Ohio, wife St. Louis) and we currently live north of Boston, in Peabody, MA. We drive every year for a 3-5 week work remote (since covid) summer trip to stay with the wife’s parents in Camdenton Missouri.
So you’ve visited the in-laws twice and are making a decision partly on that? If that Camdenton house wasn’t available, wouldn’t you want to move to someplace between your hometowns? You would even have a choice of states.

I suggest you wait until the kids are one year old and analyze what you want in a neighborhood and house before you go house-shopping. It would be a shame to buy a house now and decide in 2years that it is in the wrong location, or doesn’t have the amenities a growing family needs.
onourway
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by onourway »

Congratulations! As a fellow parent of twins, I wish you the best.

I will agree with many of the previous posts here. There are so many unknowns in your future. I would not add the stress of a move to this time. The fact that you can both work remote is fabulous, but the idea of taking a 50% pay cut simply because you change the zip code you are sitting in really doesn't sit well with me. I think you can afford the cut, but that's beside the point. Hold tight while your family situation evolves, and eventually stabilizes. Yes, it's true that having family nearby can be a big help during those first few years, but an extra 50% of salary can pay for a lot of help and trips for the grandparents to boot!

As others have mentioned, health issues can become an issue with multiples delivery. I would stay put until that stage has passed - and it's likely that you'll stay put for a few years longer as you stabilize your new family reality. Keep looking towards making the move if that's what you ultimately decide you want - take the time now though to enjoy the changes that will be coming!
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ResearchMed
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by ResearchMed »

Congratulations :-)

I agree about not planning to move just now.

This may also be a time to start (slowly) inquiring about newborn help locally, be it live-in or per shift, for at least a short time initially, and perhaps a bit longer, depending.

Some babies sleep very well early on. Others, "not so much". You'll have two, and their patterns are impossible to predict.
At the least, try to have some sort of assistance (or an agency) already vetted, on stand-by, just in case.
Best case... it will be like carrying an umbrella... that's when it *won't* rain!

Best wishes to all of you!
It's very exciting!

RM
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Big Heart
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by Big Heart »

Congratulations!!! How exciting.

Are twin girls still called fraternal? I've always wondered that. Not sororal?

But to the point of your post . . . although, I am sure after 5 or more years you two are READY to get this all set up, still, I agree with the others about slowing down.

Two aspects others haven't commented on. I think being close to grandparents sounds amazing if the support is right. But the 200k thing as an inducement to make a major life decision is strange to me. Are these emotionally healthy relationships? Have you weathered anything vulnerable or difficult with them before, and if so, have they been trustworthy and reliable? Just questions to consider. I see huge monetary gifts, contingent on making a certain life choice, as a red flag for control issues . . so I just wanted to note that.

Also the part about a "contract in writing" to take care of their grandkids. Is anyone actually going to enforce a "contract in writing" for childcare from a grandparent who turns reluctant, or who comes to realize that they aren't physically capable? It's hard to imagine. So I'm not sure of the point of a "contract in writing" there.

There are grandparents who discover they aren't physically capable of things like - diaper changes with a squirmy, wriggly toddler. Taking care of babies is physical work and it doesn't get easier when they are 2, 3, 4. Even with tiny ones, lifting them and carrying them and responding to them . . it is physically *hard.* Even more so, with 2. Then when they get big enough to do things like . . head-slam you (on accident or on purpose) . . sneak up behind you to knock you over . etc. . . all normal developmental stuff . . . but not everyone is really up for caretaking through those developmental stages and not everyone's body is actually even safe in those situations. Counting on an elder to be able to watch two children ages zero to five seems ill-thought to me, regardless of what they are willing to put in writing, in fact even more questionable from someone who imagines that such a thing *could* be a matter of contract (as it signals that they may not really be alert to what the job entails)

Recommend adding that to your list of "things that could work out beautifully, so let's see how that plays out. "
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LongTermHorizon
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by LongTermHorizon »

Thank you for the super helpful advice. As always, BogleHeads have shared incredible wisdom.

"My only focus would be on just making it through the first year." This seems to resonate well with both of us.

Had the house in Camdenton, MO not been privately offered, ahead of going on the market in February, I don't think we'd be feeling the time "pressure". Getting another unsolicited cash offer of $785k last week just got us back to thinking...

We both have been in Boston for ~12 years, and if you asked us 12 years ago if we would be in Boston or back in the Midwest, we'd both would have answered "Midwest by 2020".

Long term, I foresee us heading back to the Midwest, but I think we can put the plans on hold for another year or two.

The thing about thinking long-term and having multiple failures in trying to have children over 5 years is that we've done a lot of thinking and blue-sky planning. About 2 years back after a failure, the wife figured it would make sense to get an estimate of what it would cost to add on an addition to our house. So, in 2019, we contacted an architect firm, had multiple plans drawn up (good, better, best), and determined that adding on a "better" 1,000 sqf will cost ~$300,000. It's only gotten more expensive for such a plan, it's crazy that "best" was presented as only a 600,000k addition project.

We did the math on the plan, and because we don't plan to stay for the "long-term", i.e. 10+ years, we tabled those plans, and in 2020 for a covid project, instead we built a 12x18ft shed by ourselves in our backyard - put in a concrete floor, electric, mini-split heat/AC. I figure with having kids it'll be either a she-shed or a home office. I still just cannot wrap my head around the prices of housing here in New England :shock: .

On the "contract in writing from the grandparents". The wife's father, retired after being successful SVP executive in the retail space, and he retired at 60 years old, on January 1, 2020. He's got an extremely healthy multi-million retirement portfolio with Vanguard.

The contract was his idea
, and he's always stating, contracts mean future promises must be kept. He's also adamant to not mix "business with family".

We already have an annual contract that states every year they must be able to see their daughter for 2 times a year (as the husband I don't think I'm even named in the contract as required), and while we've driven out to Missouri every summer for the last 8 years, the grand parents have driven out to spend 2 weeks at Christmas with us for the last 4 years. He likes to joke that once we have kids: if we don't have the addition put on the house, he'll buy a "big" RV and park it in our yard and they can both visit for "months on end so maybe he'll change the terms of the annual contract to once a year".

He's a spry "young" 60 year old who's honestly got too much time on his hands, and his wife is a young 55. They are excited about being "young" grandparents. And I have no doubt that as a grandfather he'll have his lawyer draw up many more "contracts" in the years ahead. :D

So, for the moment, it sounds like the prudent thing to do is to:
  • slow down
  • focus on having a healthy pregnancy (twins + mom)
  • then re-assess in a year or two.
One concern I have is in a year or two, at that point there's going to a sleep deficit, so I'm trying to plan ahead now :D.

Thank you for the super helpful advice. Keep it coming!
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by McGowan »

DW and I had boy/girl twins at 41 and 39 respectively. Blessing. About to turn 21.

Do not have big changes right now. THE most important things are about help and sanity. You both will be sleep deprived and will have very little adult interaction. Your DW will be overwhelmed all the time. A big move is already a very stressful thing. During a pregnancy, esp. with twins, more big changes are very hard.

BTW, we lived in Manhattan until the kids were 4. You don't need that much space for awhile.

Let sleeping children sleep? Not with twins. When one wakes up in the middle of the night, wake up the other or you just have to go thru the drill again in an hour.

Turn off the monitor! They will learn to solve their own issues better or at least be able to deal with them. If you or your DW respond to every noise, you are reinforcing that behavior and teaching them that the best way to solve their problem is to make a lot of noise. This one was esp. hard for us but it saved my wife's sanity (which saved mine) which is legitimately at risk when you are sleep deprived for weeks on end.

I read it quickly but did your in-laws or your parents make moving back to the Ozarks a condition to receive 529 help. Not helpful if so.

529's are your friend. Daughter is about the graduate with excess 529 which is good because she is talking grad school.

You have the good fortune to not have a 2 year old running around while you are dealing with infant twins. I have been told that is really hard.

Our kids are closer now than they have ever been. Got each other prom dates. Going to college in the same city (Boston as a matter of fact) but wanted different schools.

You do need help. Maybe your respective parents step up. Maybe Covid allows you a more flexible work schedule to work from home some times. There is a real value to working a few more years at least in an environment where your advances are foreseeable. The most important thing though is deciding what will keep you both sane.

Best of luck.
Last edited by McGowan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

I am a twin myself, and also the father of a toddler (turns 3 in March) and newborn (3 months old). First, congrats on the twins. It's an amazing blessing being a twin. Your daughters will have a lot of fun.

While I commend the planning, I respectfully think you are getting way, way, way ahead of yourself, and making a ton of assumptions. Just to name a few:

1. You assume your wife would have to quit if you stayed in Boston. But your wife might have more upward career mobility in Boston, and perhaps she gets a raise that makes paying for childcare worth it? My friend in Brooklyn went from a $70k job to a $190k job almost out of nowhere. You never know in this labor market.

2. On the flip side, are you sure she will want to work in Missouri? My wife is very career-oriented, but with two kids and all of our extended family within 5 miles, she is down to about 10 hours per week, and it would not surprise me if she took a couple years off. Kids are hard whether you have help or not.

3. Are you sure you will want your in-laws to watch the kids all the time? My brother-in-law built a house in the same town as his in-laws. Now they never, ever listen to how he and his wife want them to babysit. The grandma lets a 1.5 play with an iPad, feeds her treats all the time, doesn't follow the nap schedule, doesn't put them in the car seat right, etc. The grandma's babysitting has dwindled from three days a week to one.

Conversely, my own mom has discovered that she just doesn't have the energy to babysit for longer than 3-4 hours. It is too tough on her.

Perhaps it might be better to explore how your in-laws care for the kids before moving across the country for them. Give them a test-drive. Perhaps visit on your remote work trips and give them a couple days. See how they do.

4. You absolutely do not need a bigger house. My wife and I have two kids and were contemplating downsizing to a 1450 square foot ranch. My brother and his wife live in a 950 square foot house with two kids. Be mindful about what you bring into the house. Kids do not need a bunch of toys or books or shoes or whatever. 1300 square feet is plenty of space.

5. Most importantly, you are assuming that adding a move to your wife's pregnancy is a good idea. I think you need to re-calibrate. My wife had a very difficult third trimester for both of our kids. My mom was basically bedridden for the last six weeks when she was pregnant with my brother and me. I would not add a move to this.

Again, congrats on the big news. This is extremely exciting. But like babies, you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk.
whattodonowagain
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by whattodonowagain »

Congrats on your pregnancy! I have twin girls, still school aged. The first 6 months can be difficult, depending on how well your girls sleep. If possible, arrange for a night nanny a couple times a week to allow parents to rest. Take as much time off work as you are allowed.

My wife and I moved to a bigger house in the same city during her first trimester. We have stayed put since. Though moving is work and stressful, it will be much more difficult once you have two babies/kids.

The consensus advice seems to be stay put. I am going to vote for moving. Perhaps your listed rationale isn’t making a strong enough case, but it seems to me you really want to do the move. You can picture yourself in this Midwest location. I’d say go for it, get it done as early in her pregnancy as possible. Assuming you have access to high quality healthcare in the new location. Many twins are born prematurely and need that extra care.
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by SchruteB&B »

Big Heart wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:36 pm
Two aspects others haven't commented on. I think being close to grandparents sounds amazing if the support is right. But the 200k thing as an inducement to make a major life decision is strange to me. Are these emotionally healthy relationships? Have you weathered anything vulnerable or difficult with them before, and if so, have they been trustworthy and reliable? Just questions to consider. I see huge monetary gifts, contingent on making a certain life choice, as a red flag for control issues . . so I just wanted to note that.
I agree, this sounds like very controlling behavior.
DoubleComma
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by DoubleComma »

We moved when pregnant with our first. We were excited to get back to family, sell our VHCOL house and buy in a MCOL (by comparison) area. Allowing out kids to grow up a little more rural, have regular contact with grand parents, aunts/uncles and cousins sounded fantastic.

16 years later it’s still considered one of the biggest mistakes we made. Within a year relocating one set of aunt/uncle/cousins moved 4 hours away for a work opportunity. The other went through a bitter divorce and now the family rarely sees those cousins. Grandparents determined within the first year they couldn’t keep up with pace of helping to watch kids so that was gone. Now many many years later grandparents are much older and require a lot of support which all comes from me.

We look back at all we left behind in the VHCOL and realize we made a mistake. Maybe it would have been different in the vision we had been sold on would have materialized, but it didn’t. Because of this experience we now very rarely consider variables we don’t control when we make similar choices.
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by random_walker_77 »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:24 am 3. Are you sure you will want your in-laws to watch the kids all the time? My brother-in-law built a house in the same town as his in-laws. Now they never, ever listen to how he and his wife want them to babysit. The grandma lets a 1.5 play with an iPad, feeds her treats all the time, doesn't follow the nap schedule, doesn't put them in the car seat right, etc. The grandma's babysitting has dwindled from three days a week to one.

Conversely, my own mom has discovered that she just doesn't have the energy to babysit for longer than 3-4 hours. It is too tough on her.

Perhaps it might be better to explore how your in-laws care for the kids before moving across the country for them. Give them a test-drive. Perhaps visit on your remote work trips and give them a couple days. See how they do.
This is very insightful. It brings back memories...

Personal dynamics between you and your parents can become weirdly strained when you have kids. Parents are used to telling their kids what to do, rather than vice-versa. Parents who were strict in your own upbringing are also frequently perfectly willing to spoil their grandkids. They may also be very resistant to doing things "your way" and this can be a problem if their way is no longer considered safe nor appropriate. As an extreme example, sometimes the older generation just doesn't truly believe that food allergies are a real thing, and when your kid nearly dies as a result that does impact the relationship. Having to "fire" the babysitter is much trickier when the babysitter is family. That said, a loved relative can be the next-best source of childcare to yourself, but committing to it before testing for a good fit might not be so prudent.

OP's FIL "contracts" seem a bit eccentric, but probably harmless. Maybe that contract needs to stipulate further terms relating to following the instructions of their daughter.
CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

whattodonowagain wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:06 am Congrats on your pregnancy! I have twin girls, still school aged. The first 6 months can be difficult, depending on how well your girls sleep. If possible, arrange for a night nanny a couple times a week to allow parents to rest. Take as much time off work as you are allowed.

My wife and I moved to a bigger house in the same city during her first trimester. We have stayed put since. Though moving is work and stressful, it will be much more difficult once you have two babies/kids.

The consensus advice seems to be stay put. I am going to vote for moving. Perhaps your listed rationale isn’t making a strong enough case, but it seems to me you really want to do the move. You can picture yourself in this Midwest location. I’d say go for it, get it done as early in her pregnancy as possible. Assuming you have access to high quality healthcare in the new location. Many twins are born prematurely and need that extra care.
We moved when my son was 11 months old and it wasn't a big deal. We basically let him play while helping us pack and had my wife's mom watch him on moving day. We also brought him to the house a couple times before we moved into the new place.

The smartest thing we did was set up his new room to be exactly the same (layout wise) as his old room. So his main dresser was across from his crib, tall dresser was on the right when you walked in, window was in the same spot relative to his crib, etc. And we made a big deal out of it being his "new room" and we had zero sleep adjusting issues.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by ResearchMed »

LongTermHorizon wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:40 am
On the "contract in writing from the grandparents". The wife's father, retired after being successful SVP executive in the retail space, and he retired at 60 years old, on January 1, 2020. He's got an extremely healthy multi-million retirement portfolio with Vanguard.

The contract was his idea
, and he's always stating, contracts mean future promises must be kept. He's also adamant to not mix "business with family".

We already have an annual contract that states every year they must be able to see their daughter for 2 times a year (as the husband I don't think I'm even named in the contract as required), and while we've driven out to Missouri every summer for the last 8 years, the grand parents have driven out to spend 2 weeks at Christmas with us for the last 4 years. He likes to joke that once we have kids: if we don't have the addition put on the house, he'll buy a "big" RV and park it in our yard and they can both visit for "months on end so maybe he'll change the terms of the annual contract to once a year".

He's a spry "young" 60 year old who's honestly got too much time on his hands, and his wife is a young 55. They are excited about being "young" grandparents. And I have no doubt that as a grandfather he'll have his lawyer draw up many more "contracts" in the years ahead. :D
I can't quite tell if some of the above is in jest, especially given that apparent recognition about not mixing family and business. All these "contracts" sound mighty "business like" to me...

You all need a written *contract* to arrange to get together twice a year?
And what is this about a requirement that you be named in such contracts? Required by whom and for what purpose?

And these are contracts are actually written up by an attorney? Not something done in perhaps a semi-humorous way?
What are the penalties if they do not get to see their daughter twice a year occasionally?
[More financial withholding?]

Have you spent much time *with* them, not just during a relatively brief visit?

And just as an aside, if you did not move back, they would really withhold college money for their grandchildren... the money they'd give if you did move back?

As has already been mentioned:
SchruteB&B wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:24 am
Big Heart wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:36 pm
Two aspects others haven't commented on. I think being close to grandparents sounds amazing if the support is right. But the 200k thing as an inducement to make a major life decision is strange to me. Are these emotionally healthy relationships? Have you weathered anything vulnerable or difficult with them before, and if so, have they been trustworthy and reliable? Just questions to consider. I see huge monetary gifts, contingent on making a certain life choice, as a red flag for control issues . . so I just wanted to note that.
I agree, this sounds like very controlling behavior.
This sounds like a financial and controlling transaction veiled as "being helpful".
Would it really be all of the "help" you expected?

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

random_walker_77 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:36 am
This is very insightful. It brings back memories...

Personal dynamics between you and your parents can become weirdly strained when you have kids. Parents are used to telling their kids what to do, rather than vice-versa. Parents who were strict in your own upbringing are also frequently perfectly willing to spoil their grandkids. They may also be very resistant to doing things "your way" and this can be a problem if their way is no longer considered safe nor appropriate. As an extreme example, sometimes the older generation just doesn't truly believe that food allergies are a real thing, and when your kid nearly dies as a result that does impact the relationship. Having to "fire" the babysitter is much trickier when the babysitter is family. That said, a loved relative can be the next-best source of childcare to yourself, but committing to it before testing for a good fit might not be so prudent.

OP's FIL "contracts" seem a bit eccentric, but probably harmless. Maybe that contract needs to stipulate further terms relating to following the instructions of their daughter.
Totally agree about grandparents. Relationships can become very strained. Grandparents have their own opinion. They just get to show up, have fun, and don't have to deal with the aftermath. For a rather dumb example, it is fun to give a two-year-old a pack of M&Ms, but when grandma leaves, she doesn't have to deal with the toddler having a crash and having an extremely difficult time going to bed.

My own family runs the gamut. My dad and his wife are retired and are too busy with travels and charity-stuff to be reliable babysitters. My mom doesn't listen to a word we say so she doesn't really watch our kids. My mother-in-law is an absolute saint with our kids and I would be okay if she moved in tomorrow.

So out of everything I wrote in my post, I think that's the most important one. OP better make absolutely sure the grandparents are compatible babysitters. Better to figure that out before you move.
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

LongTermHorizon wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:50 pm
  • Grand parents have offered to sweeten the 529 plans by an additional 100k per girl if we move back.
I glossed over this in the OP, but this is alarming to me. Seems like grandparents are eccentric, but I cannot possibly imagine bribing my kids to move back. Seems like very controlling and unhealthy behavior.

Moving back won't be the only thing associated with this $100k bribe. They will expect more and more.
whattodonowagain
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by whattodonowagain »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:54 am
whattodonowagain wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:06 am Congrats on your pregnancy! I have twin girls, still school aged. The first 6 months can be difficult, depending on how well your girls sleep. If possible, arrange for a night nanny a couple times a week to allow parents to rest. Take as much time off work as you are allowed.

My wife and I moved to a bigger house in the same city during her first trimester. We have stayed put since. Though moving is work and stressful, it will be much more difficult once you have two babies/kids.

The consensus advice seems to be stay put. I am going to vote for moving. Perhaps your listed rationale isn’t making a strong enough case, but it seems to me you really want to do the move. You can picture yourself in this Midwest location. I’d say go for it, get it done as early in her pregnancy as possible. Assuming you have access to high quality healthcare in the new location. Many twins are born prematurely and need that extra care.
We moved when my son was 11 months old and it wasn't a big deal. We basically let him play while helping us pack and had my wife's mom watch him on moving day. We also brought him to the house a couple times before we moved into the new place.

The smartest thing we did was set up his new room to be exactly the same (layout wise) as his old room. So his main dresser was across from his crib, tall dresser was on the right when you walked in, window was in the same spot relative to his crib, etc. And we made a big deal out of it being his "new room" and we had zero sleep adjusting issues.
It could be that OP would have the same experience. Twins are a different deal than a single baby though. I’m sure this sounds arrogant, but if you don’t have first hand experience taking care of twin babies, you really don’t know…
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LongTermHorizon
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by LongTermHorizon »

This is super valuable insight. Again, thank you.

Thanks for the advice:
But like babies, you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk.
On the "controlling" aspect of the grandparents, or really just my Father-in-law, he had me draw up the list of pros and cons and when I put lack of earning potential for 529s for the kids in the con column (if we move), and he was like "well if they start off with a 100k" would that make the decision any easier?

I was like "well that's no longer an issue then, is it?". He's genuinely trying to "help you decide"...but I also know he's talking about wanting to teach his grand kids how to fish, camp, and not be "pansy New Englanders".

We've shared a lot with our families about multiple failures (cried many tears), and we've shared a bunch about how we are doing through the tough times and the happy times.

With an iPad and FaceTime we "see" more of them each week than I ever thought possible. And as retirees, man, do they have a lot of time on their hands...

On the 529s, I'm sure he'll put the 200k (100k per girl) in 529s if we stayed in Boston, I'm sure of it, but it's a good idea for me to clarify it.

He's already talking about joking (at least I'm hoping he is joking) about buying and training a horse so the girls can learn to ride...I was like:

"woah hold your horses, what if they want to do swimming, or dance, or soccer, or poetry?". His big belly laughing response:

"Well with Index Funds from Vanguard i better go buy a pool, a recital hall, a dance studio, and hire Lionel Messi for private soccer classes, now I know nothing about poetry...you've stumped me there. "

It's a great idea to find out if they're going to be good babysitters before we'd make such a move, and I think we'll find out soon enough.

I already know from my mother-in-law she's going to be with her daughter at birth, and according to her:
  • "I'll be the most helpful grandmother wherever you are for the first 4-5 months."
On the wife's job prospects and upward financial mobility she's definitely weighing whether to be a stay-at-home mom, or to keep working.

We know that Boston childcare costs are looking @ 20k-25k per child, and at amount, she's like after tax and 401k matching her take home salary would be gone, and she wouldn't have the time to be a "real mom"--that was what she heard from 2 of her girlfriends...sigh.

Where is there a good place for women to talk through the financial calculus of leaving the workforce or staying in regards to being a "mom" or a "working mom" for young children?

For the time being I'm leaning on taking it slow and pause on the move for now, but I have a feeling that as retirees this pair of Grandparents is going to be SUPER active...and all thanks to their hard work and investing for the future.

In this economy, what's crazy is, in a moment of weakness, we could sell our house in under 24 hours. Now moving (physically) would be much more arduous but even then, the grandparents offered to help us "pack up and move the following weekend".
Big Heart
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by Big Heart »

I'm sure many women on this board could share perspectives, if she posted. There's also a Facebook group called "Women on FIRE" that is awesome for women & finance. (if she's on FB).

The childcare expense is not budgeted from her salary alone. Since the children are both of yours, therefore, childcare is a shared expense. So, the correct way to allocate it is either half from your salary and half from hers; or percentage according to who is contributing more to the family pot (i.e. 60% of the expense is paid from the salary of the person whose earnings are 60% of the total).

There is a lot at stake for women's professions beyond salary. The wham of childcare is over in just five years but stepping out of the workforce can have repercussions that last for a lifetime.

There are many "real moms" who work. While I love our home time, I am a better parent as a working parent. I am more creative, more present, more connected, and more available to him as a result of having a 'break' each day (at work). His childcare also gives him things that he can't get at home . . right now his preschool has him outside building snow forts and stuff for 7 hours a day, every day. Whereas at home, it's a 45 minute process to get him to put on his mittens. We are well-served as a family by the work + childcare combo.

These questions are highly personal and your wife will figure out her own way with it but this "real mom" stuff is garbage. She will be a real mom no matter what choices she makes about care for her children if those choices are rooted in love.

The grandparents sound very excited & I personally would want to test drive all of that before moving to be closer to them. It sounds like they have a powerful ability to transform a situation by coming on strong fast and heavy. Perhaps that is one of the secrets of their success? To me, those are qualities often more fun in the abstract - or on vacation - than when you are trying to parent a grounded and decent human being day-in and day-out. Figuring out how much they are able to (happily) defer to YOUR choices and YOUR expectations is an important question that you haven't shared much information about. That is a relationship question, outside the parameters of this board but something to think about as you make a major financial decision.
Last edited by Big Heart on Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
OnTrack2020
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Re: Soon to be parents of twins, big decisions ahead, help wanted!

Post by OnTrack2020 »

Camdenton, Missouri - Population 4,000. Everybody will know your business.

I would think long and hard about moving to an area with that small of a population. If you are used to amenities like superb medical care and all, you are not going to find it at the Lake of the Ozarks. Nor, as you mentioned, will you find the job opportunities.

That area of Missouri is a wonderful place to vacation, but living there when you are used to living near a major metro area is another story.

Maybe the grandparents can come to your place in Massachusetts to help out for a while.
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