Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

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Wannaretireearly
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
Very well said. The other thing is you are ‘rewarded’ with more of this soul sucking work. It’s not like the org will say, well done, we promoted you to Sr. Director. Given your expanded responsibilities stress, dealing with every VP being your boss, we’ll also give you a sabbatical to take care of the stress at this level. I’d love to see something like this, but won’t hold my breath!
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Dusn
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Dusn »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
HawkeyePierce
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it is not.
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riverant
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by riverant »

jharkin wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:19 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
When I was a tech manager I often had to provide a list for the quarterly layoffs. Even worse was delivering the news. One guy during hte conversation revealed to me he had cancer and his wife was divorcing him. I had no idea. Wanted to drink myself to sleep that night.

That happened ever single quarter no matter how bad OR good the numbers where. CEO was a big fan of the Jack Welch's style and buddy buddy with a well known Harvard business professor and they would reorganize half the company based on each new management fad. I was glad to get off the hamster wheel after 2 decades and go private.


Granted this is non-FAANG in a very specialized technology niche that doesn't earn anywhere near FAANG salaries and never will. I stay in this low paying niche because unlike the FAANGs who are just sucking our souls and privacy down the drain; in this niche we are contributing to tools that are used to solve big problems in engineering, science, medicine, etc. Seeing the work I do, even very very indirectly, contribute to a technology to fight climate change or treat brain tumors is worth FAR more to me than being paid 7 figures to help make the next Tictok app that rots my kids brain.

But hey that's just me........
This is a great comment, particularly the tick tock piece. It’s astounding how much talent is deployed on ridiculous social media fads vs true value add societal projects. The reason is of course money, which makes sense, but isn’t very satisfying.

It also seems that in FAANG type companies, the CEO is very high profile and creates a cult of personality. No one is going to risk their Comp to go toe to toe with a Musk/Bezos/Hastings/Zuckerberg/Jobs, even if he is pushing a stupid idea.
Shael_AT
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Shael_AT »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:34 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it is not.
It both is and is not.

Top FAANG+ firms (Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Salesforce, etc) are so large that they are a company of dozens to hundreds of companies. Each one has a budget and staff contingency that outpaces some entire Low to Mid cap corporations, which is to give you a perspective at scale.

Meaning, you will have some of the most incredible management staff from M1 to M3 and beyond, and in the same company, have thousands of people reporting to an entirely different VP or SVP "org", with the most miserable, toxic, backstabbing, opportunist enabling and politics oriented M1, M2 and M3's.

The most profitable business units are usually innovation, growth and R&D drivers. They typically have fresh blood, bold ideas and great human beings.

However, inside of that same company, while this one unit grows 40-70-100-110% + YOY and the money is just limitless, the next 5 are stagnant or declining businesses.

Case in point, any legacy company like IBM, Oracle or Microsoft with a cutting edge Cloud business unit, and compare those to the legacy business services, consultancies, in house operations,e tc.

Great Leaders are paid so much in these companies because they are incredible people who can be visionaries, kind, compassionate, focused, integrity and humility oriented. These leaders are also often chasing the next new start up, business unit or company turn around \ expansion like anyone else would. The difference in pay for a M2 or M3 who is Great versus Satisfactory explains this, some Sr Directors bring in 1m+ comp, others bring in 2-10m comp and are often fast tracked to become VP's and SVP's.

Leaders succeed upwards just like any of us. But there are so few of them that it's a rarity to work at a company in this space with an extraordinary one. This is also why M1's, M2's, etc. will follow their VP/SVP/C suite person when they move companies in droves.

Attractive people attract others.
KyleAAA
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by KyleAAA »

Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it isn't as a general rule. Very large companies are extremely heterogeneous so there are of course pockets of this. Employees at those companies are fairly well-attuned to this dynamic and you see a persistent migration from the bad orgs to the good for companies that enable easy internal mobility.
theorist
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by theorist »

KyleAAA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 pm
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it isn't as a general rule. Very large companies are extremely heterogeneous so there are of course pockets of this.
This heterogeneity is also far from unique to FANGs and big tech. In academia as well, there are subfields with spectacular, nurturing intellectual leaders who bring up generations of students and collaborators; these sub-communities go on to drive scientific or technological progress. There are also little cults led by people with much less positive qualities. One thrives and the other declines, on time-scales which are long if you’re stuck in the wrong kind of community, but still fast enough to make academic research a net (very) positive for society.
fortunefavored
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by fortunefavored »

Shael_AT wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:56 am
HawkeyePierce wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:34 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am

This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it is not.
It both is and is not.
Yes, I've only worked for three Fortune 50 companies and done consulting at maybe 5 more. The world is definitely more brilliant on the "makes a ton of money" side vs. anything that is a cost center.

I was never a "top 20%" management person, so I never made it to something like google adwords. I'm sure the grass is much greener over there.

But for your average schmoe who just wants to make a lot of money, you make similar money digging ditches as you do doing adwords. It's just a grind.

Also see what I said about sociopaths: Many of them are totally fine (or at least, forget about it very quickly) laying people off who have cancer. I doubt they would have described the same job the same way I did.
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bampf
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by bampf »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:34 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it is not.
Right. It is not all that way. In fact mostly not that way at all in my experience. Sure there are pockets of arbitrary awful, but, that has been limited in my experience.
Nescio
Starfish
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Starfish »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:16 am Very hard to believe any one person in a traditional job is worth this kind of direct compensation. Sure, it happens, but it probably shouldn't.
Yeah. Let the companies get all the money.
I's a free market, some employees' focus and decisions make huge difference in the bottom line.
stoptothink
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by stoptothink »

theorist wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:10 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:04 pm
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am

Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it isn't as a general rule. Very large companies are extremely heterogeneous so there are of course pockets of this.
This heterogeneity is also far from unique to FANGs and big tech. In academia as well, there are subfields with spectacular, nurturing intellectual leaders who bring up generations of students and collaborators; these sub-communities go on to drive scientific or technological progress. There are also little cults led by people with much less positive qualities. One thrives and the other declines, on time-scales which are long if you’re stuck in the wrong kind of community, but still fast enough to make academic research a net (very) positive for society.
It could be said about literally any company in any industry. I worked for one of the largest non-profit organizations in the state of Texas, this absolutely described the segment of the organization I worked in and my interactions with others suggested it definitely wasn't isolated to my department. There are also certainly pockets of it within my current employer, which overall is by a HUGE margin the best work environment I have ever experienced (and Forbes' "best companies to work for" lists would agree).
sents13
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by sents13 »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
What makes you think this is any different for L7+ positions as IC (equivalent to manager of managers)?
Shael_AT
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Shael_AT »

sents13 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:49 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
What makes you think this is any different for L7+ positions as IC (equivalent to manager of managers)?
Power dynamics of being a IC is very different than when you manage IC's and managers in a space where other people who manage IC's and managers are vying for influence and control.

I'm an IC at this level and the most dramatic trauma in my life is when someone doesn't say "LGTM" for a pull request, or has an opinion about strategy or design that misaligns with my own.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

Reorgs generally happen at the Director level.
Power plays, elimination of layers, management and layoffs. Consolidation of resources and budget. Def see it more in the cost centers than R&D.

New head honcho comes in at SVP layer, and no surprise his #1 activity is where and why are we spending all this $. Next likely step will be some kind of reorg.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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HomerJ
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HomerJ »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Reorgs generally happen at the Director level.
Power plays, elimination of layers, management and layoffs. Consolidation of resources and budget. Def see it more in the cost centers than R&D.

New head honcho comes in at SVP layer, and no surprise his #1 activity is where and why are we spending all this $. Next likely step will be some kind of reorg.
My favorite (as a low-level worker bee), is when the new head honcho comes in and changes everything (because he has to be seen doing "something" to justify that big salary), then 3-4 years later, they are replaced by a new head honcho, who promptly changes everything back.

Example:

New Head Honcho #1: "What, we are standardized? We can save money and lower prices by getting the vendors to bid against each other!"
New Head Honcho #2: "What, we have 4 different solutions? We can save money by standardizing and becoming more efficient!"
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
fortunefavored
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by fortunefavored »

Shael_AT wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:04 pm
sents13 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:49 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:39 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm
[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
I could rant about it for days. Megacorp tech management is truly soul destroying. The issue, fundamentally, is money. It is a pyramid - the higher up you go, the bigger the compensation stakes.. and the fewer people who can claim those stakes. To be clear, the real evil starts once you get beyond first line manager.. managers generally are shielded from the worst of it.

You must toe the company line 1000%, even if it is terrible and stupid. Then you must constantly be battling politically to fight off all those other people who want to claw up that compensation ladder. Make yourself look good, make other people look bad (although NO ONE would ever admit that was what they were effectively doing.) Or else you're put on the "no future" list and/or pushed out.

Alliances, backstabbing.. it's non-stop. Being forced to spin bad decisions to staff and sell them on it, justifying insane changes in compensation structures, selling terrible company strategic decisions or tactics, creating doomed plans but having no choice but to pretend they were great, deciding who gets laid off for no good reason due to executive management arbitrary targets, stealth performance rankings of individuals that will doom their careers, diversity quotas without daring to say they were diversity quotas.. just on and on.

The higher you go, the worse it is. I honestly think 95% of my peers were sociopaths. They could do this stuff without blinking and think nothing was wrong with it.
What makes you think this is any different for L7+ positions as IC (equivalent to manager of managers)?
Power dynamics of being a IC is very different than when you manage IC's and managers in a space where other people who manage IC's and managers are vying for influence and control.

I'm an IC at this level and the most dramatic trauma in my life is when someone doesn't say "LGTM" for a pull request, or has an opinion about strategy or design that misaligns with my own.
Yup, this 1000%. In my corporate upper-middle manager opinion, this is actually the BEST role in a large tech company. You get paid a lot, you have a lot of autonomy over your domain, you tend to be respected as a subject matter expert and are shielded from the worst of corporate drama. If I was a smarter/better IC, I would have stayed in that track!

So to return to the thread topic: L7+ IC in a tech company will pull down $400K+ AND it is pretty great as a job.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by wander »

Some high earners are happen to be children of famous people. :D
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by mrspock »

Shael_AT wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:56 am
HawkeyePierce wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:34 am
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am *SNIP*

This sounds horrible. None of this sounds like a culture that would allow companies to succeed in the long run and yet this is the culture in the largest tech companies?
No, it is not.
It both is and is not.

Top FAANG+ firms (Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Salesforce, etc) are so large that they are a company of dozens to hundreds of companies. Each one has a budget and staff contingency that outpaces some entire Low to Mid cap corporations, which is to give you a perspective at scale.

Meaning, you will have some of the most incredible management staff from M1 to M3 and beyond, and in the same company, have thousands of people reporting to an entirely different VP or SVP "org", with the most miserable, toxic, backstabbing, opportunist enabling and politics oriented M1, M2 and M3's.

The most profitable business units are usually innovation, growth and R&D drivers. They typically have fresh blood, bold ideas and great human beings.

However, inside of that same company, while this one unit grows 40-70-100-110% + YOY and the money is just limitless, the next 5 are stagnant or declining businesses.

Case in point, any legacy company like IBM, Oracle or Microsoft with a cutting edge Cloud business unit, and compare those to the legacy business services, consultancies, in house operations,e tc.

Great Leaders are paid so much in these companies because they are incredible people who can be visionaries, kind, compassionate, focused, integrity and humility oriented. These leaders are also often chasing the next new start up, business unit or company turn around \ expansion like anyone else would. The difference in pay for a M2 or M3 who is Great versus Satisfactory explains this, some Sr Directors bring in 1m+ comp, others bring in 2-10m comp and are often fast tracked to become VP's and SVP's.

Leaders succeed upwards just like any of us. But there are so few of them that it's a rarity to work at a company in this space with an extraordinary one. This is also why M1's, M2's, etc. will follow their VP/SVP/C suite person when they move companies in droves.

Attractive people attract others.
+1 on this. I’m in FAANG, and leadership varies greatly from org to org or business unit to business unit. Those of us that have been here a while know which ones are great — and we stick to them, others I wouldn’t work in no matter what.

Things also get bad enough at times where the m-team of the company will send in tons of trusted vets into an org with bad culture/execution, and depending what is found, the leadership can be excised from the company. I’ve seen this happen multiple times. Elon just did this in SpaceX as a good example.

So it’s definitely a thing, but at least the company I’m in, does react and take real steps to correct these problems.
Last edited by mrspock on Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by sents13 »

fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
Yup, this 1000%. In my corporate upper-middle manager opinion, this is actually the BEST role in a large tech company. You get paid a lot, you have a lot of autonomy over your domain, you tend to be respected as a subject matter expert and are shielded from the worst of corporate drama. If I was a smarter/better IC, I would have stayed in that track!

So to return to the thread topic: L7+ IC in a tech company will pull down $400K+ AND it is pretty great as a job.
But L7+ as IC is extremely difficult to attain. L5 terminal everyone gets it. L6 is one level above that and most people will get it (if they want it hard enough)... but L7 that might be a retirement level when you only get it once you're closing to retirement? On the other hand, EM is easily attainable, easier than L6 IC even though they are the same level, and going to L7 EM just need good growth. If you can't achieve it, then jump ship to a growing company. My opinion is that it's to be EM instead of IC because of generalization. Because of IC specialization, this makes it hard to move around once you get past L6 IC. Correct me if I am wrong... but I've been thinking a lot about going for IC vs EM now that I'm in range of L6.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by fortunefavored »

sents13 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
Yup, this 1000%. In my corporate upper-middle manager opinion, this is actually the BEST role in a large tech company. You get paid a lot, you have a lot of autonomy over your domain, you tend to be respected as a subject matter expert and are shielded from the worst of corporate drama. If I was a smarter/better IC, I would have stayed in that track!

So to return to the thread topic: L7+ IC in a tech company will pull down $400K+ AND it is pretty great as a job.
But L7+ as IC is extremely difficult to attain. L5 terminal everyone gets it. L6 is one level above that and most people will get it (if they want it hard enough)... but L7 that might be a retirement level when you only get it once you're closing to retirement? On the other hand, EM is easily attainable, easier than L6 IC even though they are the same level, and going to L7 EM just need good growth. If you can't achieve it, then jump ship to a growing company. My opinion is that it's to be EM instead of IC because of generalization. Because of IC specialization, this makes it hard to move around once you get past L6 IC. Correct me if I am wrong... but I've been thinking a lot about going for IC vs EM now that I'm in range of L6.
You should start a thread on this - I'm sure you'll get a lot of interesting opinions. If your goal is to maximize income, certainly going the director plus route is the way to go. The income potential is nearly unlimited in management, while the IC side is severely constrained by the number of available roles. The downside is.. of course everything I wrote.. :)

I went that route because I wasn't a very good IC (merely "ok" and not in any high demand role) - so I was certainly capped out there.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:25 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Reorgs generally happen at the Director level.
Power plays, elimination of layers, management and layoffs. Consolidation of resources and budget. Def see it more in the cost centers than R&D.

New head honcho comes in at SVP layer, and no surprise his #1 activity is where and why are we spending all this $. Next likely step will be some kind of reorg.
My favorite (as a low-level worker bee), is when the new head honcho comes in and changes everything (because he has to be seen doing "something" to justify that big salary), then 3-4 years later, they are replaced by a new head honcho, who promptly changes everything back.

Example:

New Head Honcho #1: "What, we are standardized? We can save money and lower prices by getting the vendors to bid against each other!"
New Head Honcho #2: "What, we have 4 different solutions? We can save money by standardizing and becoming more efficient!"
Lol yep. And ditto to being horizontally vs. vertically organized. Every 3 years without fail we’ll flip flop
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by mrspock »

sents13 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
Yup, this 1000%. In my corporate upper-middle manager opinion, this is actually the BEST role in a large tech company. You get paid a lot, you have a lot of autonomy over your domain, you tend to be respected as a subject matter expert and are shielded from the worst of corporate drama. If I was a smarter/better IC, I would have stayed in that track!

So to return to the thread topic: L7+ IC in a tech company will pull down $400K+ AND it is pretty great as a job.
But L7+ as IC is extremely difficult to attain. L5 terminal everyone gets it. L6 is one level above that and most people will get it (if they want it hard enough)... but L7 that might be a retirement level when you only get it once you're closing to retirement? Also it's easier to be EM instead of IC because of specialization, which makes it hard to move around once you get past L6 IC. Correct me if I am wrong... but I've been thinking a lot about going for IC vs EM now that I'm in range of L6.
Something to think about: It's precisely because I moved around that I became valuable enough to become not just IC7... but beyond. I showed I wasn't a 1 trick pony, you put me in an org, I succeeded again... and again. I also made those around me succeed, who maybe didn't before. In fact, a big "trick" of mine, is not focusing on myself, I focus on how I can make *others* succeed, my success comes with their success. Give them the cool stuff to work on, encourage them to do the big presentations, let them make calls which you might disagree with (or even wrong) so they can learn (or surprise me) and recognize them for their achievements (I will personally attend their perf reviews). Do this for a while, and you will have a small army of people who trust you, and will goto war with you on the hardest projects/problems.

In my company, there are more ways to get to high levels than deep specialization (which is actually a less common path), things like being an exceptional debugger, architect, consensus builder, project "show runner" are all highly valued skills which are transferable from org to org as an IC.

By moving around, we become "experts" in multiple areas of the company, and this knowledge becomes are very valuable thing. Even more important, your ability to lead and support others, this is probably the piece which I see holds most engineers back, they've convinced themselves they don't like interacting with people -- and it's exactly that which puts a ceiling on their careers. Engineers with the "right" ideas are a dime a dozen, engineers who can motivate and lead others to actually execute on the right ideas? That's a rare thing.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by gips »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:25 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Reorgs generally happen at the Director level.
Power plays, elimination of layers, management and layoffs. Consolidation of resources and budget. Def see it more in the cost centers than R&D.

New head honcho comes in at SVP layer, and no surprise his #1 activity is where and why are we spending all this $. Next likely step will be some kind of reorg.
My favorite (as a low-level worker bee), is when the new head honcho comes in and changes everything (because he has to be seen doing "something" to justify that big salary), then 3-4 years later, they are replaced by a new head honcho, who promptly changes everything back.

Example:

New Head Honcho #1: "What, we are standardized? We can save money and lower prices by getting the vendors to bid against each other!"
New Head Honcho #2: "What, we have 4 different solutions? We can save money by standardizing and becoming more efficient!"
“We trained hard—but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we were reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.”

charles ogborn, 1957
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by MAKsdad »

The benefit of being a manager vs. an IC is that if you're a manager and you have work to do, you can just tell and IC to do it. If you're lazy (like me), being a manager is way better.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ktdintex »

I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.

The typical base salary for an 8th year associate (8 years out of law school) at a large law firm is now $365K. Throw a bonus on top of that and you're above $400K.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HomerJ »

ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.
Typical for a 25 year old straight out of a TOP TEN law school who gets into one of those big firms.

Not typical for all 25 year olds straight out of law school.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by B3GINN3R »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:13 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.
Typical for a 25 year old straight out of a TOP TEN law school who gets into one of those big firms.

Not typical for all 25 year olds straight out of law school.
I'm 29 y.o. big law went to T10 school. I'll bring in ~410 this year
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Firemenot »

ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.

The typical base salary for an 8th year associate (8 years out of law school) at a large law firm is now $365K. Throw a bonus on top of that and you're above $400K.
And most such people are hating their existence. But making over 400K.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by langelgjm »

sents13 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:09 pm
Yup, this 1000%. In my corporate upper-middle manager opinion, this is actually the BEST role in a large tech company. You get paid a lot, you have a lot of autonomy over your domain, you tend to be respected as a subject matter expert and are shielded from the worst of corporate drama. If I was a smarter/better IC, I would have stayed in that track!

So to return to the thread topic: L7+ IC in a tech company will pull down $400K+ AND it is pretty great as a job.
But L7+ as IC is extremely difficult to attain. L5 terminal everyone gets it. L6 is one level above that and most people will get it (if they want it hard enough)... but L7 that might be a retirement level when you only get it once you're closing to retirement? On the other hand, EM is easily attainable, easier than L6 IC even though they are the same level, and going to L7 EM just need good growth. If you can't achieve it, then jump ship to a growing company. My opinion is that it's to be EM instead of IC because of generalization. Because of IC specialization, this makes it hard to move around once you get past L6 IC. Correct me if I am wrong... but I've been thinking a lot about going for IC vs EM now that I'm in range of L6.
+1 to high level IC work being great. I'm a principal engineer at a large tech company a tier below FAANG. Comp is great, work-life balance is great. I don't think I've ever worked more than 45 hours in a week at this job. My boss wishes he had my job.

At 36 (pushing 37) I'm on the younger side of the folks at my company with this title, though I do have a PhD. I'm not the youngest, though. However I work alongside someone with the same title who is in their 60s and had 20 years of experience at a top tier company prior to this.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by loukycpa »

Grinding in public accounting for over 25 years. 5 years in Big 4, rest in regional firm. $300k+ 2017 through 2019. $400k+ 2020 and 2021.

I don't enjoy anything about it anymore. I turn 50 in summer 2023. Some time before then I will walk away from it.

If I am content to live like a middle class Joe (pretty much how I have been living), I doubt I will need to work again if I don't feel like it. I expect to want to do something else eventually.

Regrets about what I've done up till now? None. Glad the hard part is behind me. Will I regret leaving it behind? I don't expect to.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ktdintex »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:13 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.
Typical for a 25 year old straight out of a TOP TEN law school who gets into one of those big firms.

Not typical for all 25 year olds straight out of law school.
Yes, the "big firm" means you need good credentials to get in the door. I certainly wasn't suggesting any law school grad can get that kind of salary.

Although you can make the same kind of money and much more, eventually, as a partner in a small or mid sized law firm. Big firms have huge expenses. I was a partner in a small firm for a long time, and we were very profitable because our overhead was low. I've also been a partner in a mega firm, and the money spent on rent, making the firm look nice, etc. was astounding.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ktdintex »

Firemenot wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:42 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.

The typical base salary for an 8th year associate (8 years out of law school) at a large law firm is now $365K. Throw a bonus on top of that and you're above $400K.
And most such people are hating their existence. But making over 400K.
Probably true, especially in the east coast cities. Associates are chasing the brass ring of partnership, not realizing how hollow it is to be a "partner" in a big firm. I've seen both sides of the fence, and it's really just a title at big firms. No equity or ownership in the firm, no voting rights, no real input on firm decisions.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by beyou »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:25 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm Reorgs generally happen at the Director level.
Power plays, elimination of layers, management and layoffs. Consolidation of resources and budget. Def see it more in the cost centers than R&D.

New head honcho comes in at SVP layer, and no surprise his #1 activity is where and why are we spending all this $. Next likely step will be some kind of reorg.
My favorite (as a low-level worker bee), is when the new head honcho comes in and changes everything (because he has to be seen doing "something" to justify that big salary), then 3-4 years later, they are replaced by a new head honcho, who promptly changes everything back.

Example:

New Head Honcho #1: "What, we are standardized? We can save money and lower prices by getting the vendors to bid against each other!"
New Head Honcho #2: "What, we have 4 different solutions? We can save money by standardizing and becoming more efficient!"
And consultants can make a nice living helping achieve the flip flops each time. These honcho’s are creating jobs !
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by EddyB »

ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:03 pm
Firemenot wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:42 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.

The typical base salary for an 8th year associate (8 years out of law school) at a large law firm is now $365K. Throw a bonus on top of that and you're above $400K.
And most such people are hating their existence. But making over 400K.
Probably true, especially in the east coast cities. Associates are chasing the brass ring of partnership, not realizing how hollow it is to be a "partner" in a big firm. I've seen both sides of the fence, and it's really just a title at big firms. No equity or ownership in the firm, no voting rights, no real input on firm decisions.
I don't know whether most 8th year associates hate their existence (that was one of the better periods in my career, which I admit has had some very difficult periods), but the other things really depend on the firm. They're not true at my firm.

Notwithstanding all the issues big law has, it's a relatively (relatively!) straightforward path for a certain type of person to make at least the kind of money under discussion in this thread. While I can now think "why would anyone do this?", the reality is that coming from a working-class background, with no "connections," having gone through community college on the way to the Ivy League (and outsized debt), big law was the closest thing I could have had to a "sure thing" ticket to the upper middle class and beyond. Do I think my kids (who have grown up in entirely different circumstances) could put up with it? No, and I wouldn't want them to. (And they will be in a completely different place when it comes to bearing risk.) Even if I hadn't become an equity partner, I wouldn't deny that being an associate/counsel/non-equity partner in big law is a pretty solid financial outcome.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ASpenderInRecovery »

I'll premise this with I don't consider myself a "very high earner" because I've witnessed the world of hedge fund and private equity wealth. Many of them are not on this forum as they are too busy at car auctions or traveling to their 4th homes in Lake Como. Was lucky enough to get into tech sales 11 years ago. Started at 35k in a HCOL area making hundreds of cold calls daily. Outworked my peers, made a few smart maneuvers, and 8 years into it cracked 400k. Haven't dipped below mid 400s in 3 years so I easily secured that when moving to Big Tech. Funny enough, in Big Tech you will realize that 400k is little more than a rounding error in the corp payrolls. I recently heard a story about a colleague that transferred roles and negotiated a one time bonus of 40k. The payroll team in error has been paying that person 40k monthly for many months and when informed about it has shown no interest in correcting it.
Last edited by ASpenderInRecovery on Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by jar2574 »

Start a business in an industry with high profit margins.
Be willing to take calculated risks that other people aren't willing to take, with large expected returns.
Become the best at what you do through a combination of natural talent, hard work, practice, and learning.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by White Coat Investor »

Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:09 am Please share your story.

Edit to make it actionable: I moved from a very low income (<$20k) to high income (>$200k) right after a graduate degree that followed straight from undergrad and I was shocked to realize that there are so many people who make multiples of that. I thought I was making a lot of money (and it is a lot!!) but realized that I had a limited imagination because, at the time, I was seeing the people around me, as am I now. So I want to know how people do it.
Professional school is the entryway to a $400K+ salary for many people. Many physicians, dentists, and even attorneys have incomes North of $400K. Especially when they marry another professional.

Successful business owners also get there and don't have the same type of cap that professionals do.

I've contended for a long time that doubling your income is not nearly as hard as most people think it is.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ADower »

Not me personally. I know of several persons that make over $400k and they do the following:

1/Surgeon
2/ Partner at a CPA firm
3/ Dentist that owns two dental offices
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by fastrak99 »

Small business here as well, brought in anywhere from 1-3M a year for several years before selling the company. I believe many of the requirements and skills that took to get there (perseverance, trial and error, research, risk, sales etc) are inherently built in to get you to 100+K levels - but sometimes it is the force of the market, right place at the right time and some luck involved to break you through the 1+M income bracket.

We created a great line of products, marketed on the web with high profit margins, in fields that were not oversaturated yet. Only ran on 3-4 full time employees during that time.

Obviously a decade later the landscape changed and would be much tougher to achieve the same bootstrapping business and success in exactly the same way - but I believe the gates of online opportunity are just opening up still.

Also - I know of several others currently as well bringing in at least that much ($400K+) through some online sales whether on eBay, etsy or amazon.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by 60B4E24B »

Tech IC - Top 3 BSCS to a FAANG for many years to a quant hedge fund.
SubPar
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by SubPar »

loukycpa wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:57 pm Grinding in public accounting for over 25 years. 5 years in Big 4, rest in regional firm. $300k+ 2017 through 2019. $400k+ 2020 and 2021.

I don't enjoy anything about it anymore. I turn 50 in summer 2023. Some time before then I will walk away from it.

If I am content to live like a middle class Joe (pretty much how I have been living), I doubt I will need to work again if I don't feel like it. I expect to want to do something else eventually.

Regrets about what I've done up till now? None. Glad the hard part is behind me. Will I regret leaving it behind? I don't expect to.
Assuming you're a partner? Are you willing to share approximate revenue of your firm?
loukycpa
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by loukycpa »

SubPar wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:26 am
loukycpa wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:57 pm Grinding in public accounting for over 25 years. 5 years in Big 4, rest in regional firm. $300k+ 2017 through 2019. $400k+ 2020 and 2021.

I don't enjoy anything about it anymore. I turn 50 in summer 2023. Some time before then I will walk away from it.

If I am content to live like a middle class Joe (pretty much how I have been living), I doubt I will need to work again if I don't feel like it. I expect to want to do something else eventually.

Regrets about what I've done up till now? None. Glad the hard part is behind me. Will I regret leaving it behind? I don't expect to.
Assuming you're a partner? Are you willing to share approximate revenue of your firm?
Yes. We are top 100 firm in terms of revenue.
"The safe assumption for an investor is that over the next hundred years, the currency is going to zero." - Charlie Munger
alfaspider
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by alfaspider »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:13 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.
Typical for a 25 year old straight out of a TOP TEN law school who gets into one of those big firms.

Not typical for all 25 year olds straight out of law school.
Top 10 isn’t really a defined category in law schools. There’s 14 national schools with a robust biglaw pipeline, and 3-4 regional schools that do as well. When times are good, median performance at a place like the University of Texas or USC will get you biglaw (usually ranked between 15 and 20). When they are bad (like 2009), you’d need to go to Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Chicago/Columbia to be solid for biglaw with median performance.

Anyhow, someone entering law school should already have a pretty good idea what their biglaw prospects are based on their school choice. Go to Harvard, and biglaw is there if you want it. Go to the local commuter school and it’s an extreme long shot no matter how you do.
SteadyOne
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by SteadyOne »

You probably need to combine all the compensation, benefits, pension, match and job security to derive a meaningful comparison. And overtime. Then those who are mathematically and econometrically savvy to compute dollar amount derived from all of this you will get dollar per hour of work. Like government manager makes say $200,000 plus pension, subsidized medical coverage including in retirement, long term disability, job security, long vacations and 9-5 most of the time. Sales person making $400k might have nothing of the above and getting coronary at the age of 45 lose it all. How would you compare those? Not sure.
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LFS1234
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by LFS1234 »

A $6,000,000 portfolio should be able to return $400K/year forevermore whether you're working or not (assumption: 100% VFIAX at avg historical l/t real returns).

To get there, income has to be converted into wealth, which has to be allowed to compound.

Small business owners can often do this a lot more efficiently than highly paid professionals. People making $200K/year in an area where their friends/family/co-workers/customers are making $50K/year are often able to live on $50K and save/invest most of the rest. The savings can be invested either in their own business or in someone else's business(es) (including publicly traded stocks).

Successful business owners are often better-than-average investors.
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anon_investor
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by anon_investor »

alfaspider wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:42 am
HomerJ wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:13 pm
ktdintex wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:00 pm I'm a lawyer in private practice, and this is one way to get above $400K per year. The starting salary for first year associates at big firms is now $200K. That is for a typically 25 year old straight out of law school.
Typical for a 25 year old straight out of a TOP TEN law school who gets into one of those big firms.

Not typical for all 25 year olds straight out of law school.
Top 10 isn’t really a defined category in law schools. There’s 14 national schools with a robust biglaw pipeline, and 3-4 regional schools that do as well. When times are good, median performance at a place like the University of Texas or USC will get you biglaw (usually ranked between 15 and 20). When they are bad (like 2009), you’d need to go to Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Chicago/Columbia to be solid for biglaw with median performance.

Anyhow, someone entering law school should already have a pretty good idea what their biglaw prospects are based on their school choice. Go to Harvard, and biglaw is there if you want it. Go to the local commuter school and it’s an extreme long shot no matter how you do.
That is a very good assessment.

Law schools through misinformation has convinced many that being a lawyer is a quick path to biglaw and riches. Outside of a top 14 law school, this path starts to get tricky and is not easy. But for someone from a top law school the path to $400k+ is pretty straight forward, but it is difficult soul sucking work for many.
corgilady2011
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by corgilady2011 »

I will be breaking $450K W2 for the first time myself this year at the age of 33. I work in sales for a tech startup. I was one of the first 20 employees, and generally considered the largest revenue producer, have hunted/closed the companies largest accounts and continue to manage them. 5 year compensation average including this year has been $335K. I pulled it up further this year by receiving a job offer from a competitor, and leveraged at my current employer. Very slippery, careful slope there altogether.

The job is certainly not easy, I've had to make sacrifices like waiting a bit longer to start a family, etc. to be able to pull the full focus and attention to my career (outside of the C-word, lots of travel, late nights, early mornings for meetings/presentations). My company is on a 3-year plan to exit, whether IPO, sell to other private equity, acquisition. While it's never guaranteed, in the event that does happen, that will very likely get me to my FIRE number.
ILnative
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ILnative »

One I've not seen here - my husband makes this (all in, including base, bonus, RSUs, profit sharing) working in heavy manfuacturing - as a "manager" - that is his title - which cracks me up given his level of responsibility and pay. He manages a department of 70 people at a manufacturing facility in a LCOL. Has a BS degree from a non-flagship state school and has worked at this particular company for over 15 years. Great work life balance - works about 40-45 hours a week. Most people don't think about manufacturing as a good career path - but it has certainly been good for him (us).
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HomerJ
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HomerJ »

Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:09 am I was shocked to realize that there are so many people who make multiples of that.
Just note that the top 5% is still 6 million households in the U.S. Top 10% is 12 million households.

But remain aware that you are in top 5%-10%. Very annoying when a top 1%, 5%, 10% person thinks their lives are "normal".
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jharkin
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by jharkin »

Shael_AT wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:56 am The difference in pay for a M2 or M3 who is Great versus Satisfactory explains this, some Sr Directors bring in 1m+ comp, others bring in 2-10m comp and are often fast tracked to become VP's and SVP's.
Ive seen these numbers thrown out before... I havea hard time accepting this is anthing like common even at FAANG.

Take Google. They have what, 150,000 employees?

So they have to have at least 1,000+ directors.

If every director is earning a million, that is $1 billion in payroll expense just for directors.

I don't think that is mathematically possible. But I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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