Computer science as a college major

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KlangFool
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm I agree with the above comments. Certificates are meant to enhance, not be a substitute, for University courses. This is true for many careers….Medicine, Nursing, Law, Pharmacy, Engineering. One must have the basics and a formal degree and then experience before the certifications prove helpful…..they are only meant to enhance.
painslayer,

A) Correct for those areas. But, does it applies to Cybersecurity, AI, and Data Science? That is the key question. Please talk to folks working at those areas. My current and former employer R&D center for those areas are located both in the USA plus India.

B) And, those folks outside of the USA can have a degree plus those certification too.

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evestor
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by evestor »

The key question is whether your son actually likes computer science. There is a massive advantage to those that love what they do. The only way to figure this out is to try.
The good news is this is solidly good background even if he goes down another path in the end.

I'm a CS major who has made this in to a career (big tech then startups which succeeded). It is a fantastic field I love. But I never did this for the money. In fact when I went down this path the areas I work in were considered dead ends. The fact that they ended up being very lucrative in the end was luck not skill.

If you drop me a DM I'm happy to comment more with more context if helpful. Good luck to your son.
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nisiprius
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by nisiprius »

I actually took an edX course, "Introduction to Aerospace Engineering: Astronautics and Human Spaceflight." The course number, 16.00x, resembles that of the regular MIT course, "16.00 Introduction to Aerospace Engineering and Design," and was taught by one of the two professors teaching 16.00.

The edX course is an "Estimated 8 weeks, 3–4 hours per week." The actual MIT in-person paid-tuition equivalent is a "2-2-2" course meaning a total time commitment of 6 hours per week (2 lecture, 2 lab, 2 outside prep) for Sept 8 - Dec. 9 = 13 weeks. So by comparison the edX course = 24-32 hours, the actual course 72 hours. Of course there is no comparison between lab hours and anything you can do at home. And having been to MIT I would say that to graduate with a decent GPA you needed to spend more than the catalog hours in outside preparation.

The quizzes and their scoring for the edX course was more or less of a joke. Much of the score is based on small number of short multiple-choice quizzes, in which a passing score is 50%, and in which you are presented with four alternatives and given :!: :!: :!: two tries at getting the right answer. It's not quite that bad--one of the more stressful parts of the course consisted of "writing an accident report" for an aviation accident; your report is graded by three classmates, and you grade three reports of other classmates, using structured rubrics.

Still, I would guess that the content, work, and amount of education absorbed from the edX course was probably 20-25% that of the similarly-named in-person course. And because of the fairly non-rigorous grading and scoring, a "certificate of completion" of an edX course is... not much.

I've taken two other edX courses--one in three-dimensional sound (a challenge, because the course was given in Spanish) and a Harvard course in rhetoric. They were considerably inferior to 16.00x. I would certainly say that all three courses were worthwhile, and that I learned something. But I would also say that they have a small fraction--I said 20-25%--of the content of a real university course, and far less rigorous in grading.

In other words, they may make you a more valuable worker with a wider range of applicable knowledge, but they aren't "college courses" and no hiring manager is likely to view them as equivalent.

I think there are actually are some online courses with much more content and rigor that do give you actual transferrable college course credits.
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j9j
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by j9j »

MarkBarb wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:14 pm I was a comp sci major and both of my kids are comp sci majors. It is one of the highest paying majors. In my experience, it is a good foundation for a lot of careers, but only for people that enjoy it. I've seen a lot of kids that majored in CS because their parents suggested it or because it sounded like a good way to earn money, but with no real interest in the subject, they struggled at school and in their career. It is a constantly evolving field and, unless you quickly shift into a non-technical role, it requires that you keep up-to-date with changes in the field. That's easy if you enjoy it and hard if you don't.
This is a good statement. CS is a great field but if you don’t enjoy it then I do not think you will enjoy it as career.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:59 pm Hello Klangfool,

Thank you for your response…..very appreciated. My son at 18 years of age is like most 18 year olds……everyone is “interested” in some career because of what they heard or someone told them or what they read.
painslayer,

And, why you as parent and your kid has to behave like everyone else?

My daughter started working on internship while she was in high school. She wanted to major in Arts and want to find out exactly what will be available in that major. She started her research while she was in high school.

You and your kid have a choice.

Spend the time and effort to find out exactly what was involved in each profession by internship and/or visiting friends and families at their work place starting in high school. Or, take a bet on a major will work out after investing 4 to 6 years of your time and money.

Do you want to place your bet based on luck or actual research?

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srt7
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by srt7 »

As a BSEE and MSCS guy who has made a 20+ year solid career as a developer/development manager I can assure you that your son cannot go wrong with giving BSCS a shot. Just keep an open-mind, go in with reasonable expectations, be disciplined/hard working and aim to secure an internship. Everything else will fall in to place.
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muffins14
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by muffins14 »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:26 pm
painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm I agree with the above comments. Certificates are meant to enhance, not be a substitute, for University courses. This is true for many careers….Medicine, Nursing, Law, Pharmacy, Engineering. One must have the basics and a formal degree and then experience before the certifications prove helpful…..they are only meant to enhance.
painslayer,

A) Correct for those areas. But, does it applies to Cybersecurity, AI, and Data Science? That is the key question. Please talk to folks working at those areas. My current and former employer R&D center for those areas are located both in the USA plus India.

B) And, those folks outside of the USA can have a degree plus those certification too.

KlangFool
Regarding this exchange, just ask who is paid more. It is the engineers in the US, and in particular in Silicon Valley, New York, or Seattle. This means companies get additional value from them. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be paid as highly. Often there is some circular effect between being in-person, making relationships, making impact, getting new opportunities, etc, plus the fact that a density of talent and companies means you can share ideas by having happy hours or changing companies often.

I say this as someone working in AI and data science on both coasts in the US, and had international colleagues as well
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tibbitts
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by tibbitts »

muffins14 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:19 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:26 pm
painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm I agree with the above comments. Certificates are meant to enhance, not be a substitute, for University courses. This is true for many careers….Medicine, Nursing, Law, Pharmacy, Engineering. One must have the basics and a formal degree and then experience before the certifications prove helpful…..they are only meant to enhance.
painslayer,

A) Correct for those areas. But, does it applies to Cybersecurity, AI, and Data Science? That is the key question. Please talk to folks working at those areas. My current and former employer R&D center for those areas are located both in the USA plus India.

B) And, those folks outside of the USA can have a degree plus those certification too.

KlangFool
Regarding this exchange, just ask who is paid more. It is the engineers in the US, and in particular in Silicon Valley, New York, or Seattle. This means companies get additional value from them. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be paid as highly. Often there is some circular effect between being in-person, making relationships, making impact, getting new opportunities, etc, plus the fact that a density of talent and companies means you can share ideas by having happy hours or changing companies often.

I say this as someone working in AI and data science on both coasts in the US, and had international colleagues as well
Although I understand the point, a lot of U.S. workers are now demanding 100% remote work, so the in-person-related activities ship may have sailed.
muffins14
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by muffins14 »

“A lot” is an overstatement I think. Maybe 10-20% of high performers max.
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tibbitts
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by tibbitts »

muffins14 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:39 pm “A lot” is an overstatement I think. Maybe 10-20% of high performers max.
Reported percentages vary, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with being a "high performer" or not.
Young Boglehead
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Young Boglehead »

I tell all the high schoolers i know to check out computer science, it seems like a no brainer major to have compared to almost any other out there. When im an attending in 10+ years it'll be interesting to see how the tech field is. I hear there are booms and busts but it seems like the most recent boom is only getting boomier. And honestly its great that the lead time is only 4 years for a bachelors before you can make real money. Unlike in medicine where just from the start you might need 13+ years to get to a net worth of 0!
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by GreendaleCC »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:13 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:56 pm
painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm
He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence.
painslayer,

Anyone in the world with an Internet access can take courses in those areas over coursera and eDX from the leading universities and achieve certification.

So, please tell me what are the advantages of someone in the USA with a CS college degree over those folks?

https://www.coursera.org/professional-c ... 7iEALw_wcB

https://www.coursera.org/courses?query= ... telligence

KlangFool
A native English speaking US citizen with a four year degree from a US university, who understands American corporate culture and is physically located in the same place (or at least the same time zone) as everyone else on the US based team will always have an advantage.
quantAndHold,

If the biggest market of the product/service is not in the USA, the MNC is not an American company, and it is not in the English speaking country, how does it helps?

In certain product/service, the USA is no longer the largest market in the world. Or, the leading manufacturers/producers.

KlangFool
Aren’t we talking about a US teenager preparing for a career in the US?
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Alto Astral
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Alto Astral »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence. But he is not the kid who built his own computer at 14 nor did computer research and presented at national academic conferences at 14 nor is interested in studying “24/7”. He has no interest in attending UC Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, nor any such college in this type of academic stratosphere.
I did none of these as a kid nor attended these schools. Neither did most of my colleagues I met in my 20 year career. A few people changed careers into computer science as well. We are all doing alright with stable jobs.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by 2tall4economy »

School is boring for smart kids. I was a great test taker (best of the best SAT and ACT scores) but I half-assed my classes and studying because of effort vs reward. I graduated with a 3.2/4.0 in a no-name high school and I got a 2.9/4.0 average in a world class college... but I only attended about 60% of my classes.

In grad school I decided to really focus and attend every class and do all homework for a semester. And got a 4.0 (highest possible), and then I slacked off again and grades dropped. So on that front, I'd say tests matter more than grades to determine actual ability and he or she will be fine in the longer run. Also, the school you attend matters a lot more than it should.

In terms of career, I triple majored CS, EE, and CE and graduated with a BS in all of them, and followed up with the worlds easiest MS in EE (mostly CS classes). Then worked in CS for ~3 years and abandoned it for an MBA and a career in finance because of my capability with numbers.

...but, IT pays a lot more now than it did back 20 years ago (good, but not amazing), and my career path is likely not typical nor normal... I always said I wanted to find a career where I earned more than a surgeon. I did it but I'm not a fool who thinks that it's typical and that luck wasn't part of the equation...

To this day I think I probably wasted some of my time learning engineering and computers. What I need to know I got from my own experience playing around, not from my classes. I would tell anyone (who listens!), especially anyone who is good at nailing high grades, to get an undergrad in finance and a grad in law and become an M&A, Bankruptcy or Wall Street lawyer.
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
KlangFool
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

GreendaleCC wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:59 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:13 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:56 pm
painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm
He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence.
painslayer,

Anyone in the world with an Internet access can take courses in those areas over coursera and eDX from the leading universities and achieve certification.

So, please tell me what are the advantages of someone in the USA with a CS college degree over those folks?

https://www.coursera.org/professional-c ... 7iEALw_wcB

https://www.coursera.org/courses?query= ... telligence

KlangFool
A native English speaking US citizen with a four year degree from a US university, who understands American corporate culture and is physically located in the same place (or at least the same time zone) as everyone else on the US based team will always have an advantage.
quantAndHold,

If the biggest market of the product/service is not in the USA, the MNC is not an American company, and it is not in the English speaking country, how does it helps?

In certain product/service, the USA is no longer the largest market in the world. Or, the leading manufacturers/producers.

KlangFool
Aren’t we talking about a US teenager preparing for a career in the US?
And, why should the employer in the USA be a US company?

KlangFool
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Yefuy.Goje
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Yefuy.Goje »

2tall4economy wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:09 am School is boring for smart kids. I was a great test taker (best of the best SAT and ACT scores) but I half-assed my classes and studying because of effort vs reward. I graduated with a 3.2/4.0 in a no-name high school and I got a 2.9/4.0 average in a world class college... but I only attended about 60% of my classes.

In grad school I decided to really focus and attend every class and do all homework for a semester. And got a 4.0 (highest possible), and then I slacked off again and grades dropped. So on that front, I'd say tests matter more than grades to determine actual ability and he or she will be fine in the longer run. Also, the school you attend matters a lot more than it should.

In terms of career, I triple majored CS, EE, and CE and graduated with a BS in all of them, and followed up with the worlds easiest MS in EE (mostly CS classes). Then worked in CS for ~3 years and abandoned it for an MBA and a career in finance because of my capability with numbers.

...but, IT pays a lot more now than it did back 20 years ago (good, but not amazing), and my career path is likely not typical nor normal... I always said I wanted to find a career where I earned more than a surgeon. I did it but I'm not a fool who thinks that it's typical and that luck wasn't part of the equation...

To this day I think I probably wasted some of my time learning engineering and computers. What I need to know I got from my own experience playing around, not from my classes. I would tell anyone (who listens!), especially anyone who is good at nailing high grades, to get an undergrad in finance and a grad in law and become an M&A, Bankruptcy or Wall Street lawyer.
It seems, from looking at the volatility of your grades, you like to trade off measured success (i.e grades) with lifestyle (other endeavors), and I agree with you that laser focus can sometimes be unnecessary. I suspect Wall Street lawyers are busy people and have pretty much no lifestyle, which I think is unnecessary tradeoff of money for lifestyle.
Yefuy.Goje
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Yefuy.Goje »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm Good afternoon,
I am writing to ask about what some Bogleheads think about majoring in Computer Science. My son is 18 years old and is currently applying to college for he Fall, 2022. He is a senior in an academically strong public high school in the suburbs of a major city in the US. He is also an above average athlete…..committed to his sport and goes to practice 5-6 days per week on his own accord. He has participated in his sport at the state level since his Freshman year in high school. However, he is not a Division 1 prospect and he also doesn’t want to participate at the collegiate level on a scholarship or grant—-too much time needed for his sport and there is very little chance of playing at the professional or Olympic level.
He is good in STEM courses and scored in the 95th percentile on his SAT on taking it only once. His GPA is 4.2 weighted…..he has taken Honors courses and AP courses and has received a mix of A’s and B’s in these courses. I also feel that he doesn’t spend hours upon hours studying……I think if he was 110% “focused”, he would be doing even better. I have talked to him about dedication, focus, patience and hard work to do well in college, especially in a major like Computer Science. Lastly, he has also been accepted into this major a a large public state school in the Midwest.
We have researched this major well. My questions……is this a major that will lead to a solid, secure career? He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence. But he is not the kid who built his own computer at 14 nor did computer research and presented at national academic conferences at 14 nor is interested in studying “24/7”. He has no interest in attending UC Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, nor any such college in this type of academic stratosphere.
He is bright, a good stable person, social with a big group of many friends of both sexes, and stays out of trouble.
Any thoughts on Computer Science as a major? Future career opportunities? Should he look at Computer Engineering? He has no desire to be an engineer at this time. He wants to attend a large state school because of the academics available, the school spirit, the friendships he can make, and the opportunity to participate in club sports or intramurals. He doesn’t want to attend a smaller school.
Any thoughts or direction would be appreciated. Thank you.
Make sure he likes it. If he is as smart as you say, he can probably major in 20 different disciplines but finding what he likes is important. I had two majors in college (one of them was CS) and graduated with a 4.0 (highest possible) GPA in both but I never really liked CS. I changed to a new major for grad school and work in this field now and I love it. Being able to do something != fulfilment
VaR
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by VaR »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:54 pm As far as what people with CS degrees do all day, sitting in front of a computer and programming all day only happens intermittently, mostly earlier in their careers. Software engineers don’t really sit in front of screens any more than any other office worker nowadays.
Agree.

I yearn for days when I could program all day (which really means for less than all day, but really means pursue my own individual contributions all day).

Reality is many days of endless meetings. Not every day, but certainly for planning days and such. Even on "good days" there's sprint planning, daily scrum, story time, sprint review, and retro. There's also architectural sharing, helping others, review with SRE, reviews with QA, interviews, tech talks/pizza, foosball, etc.

It's good being the Talent. Just make sure your son stays well-grounded and easy to work with.
kleiner
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by kleiner »

I have a PhD in computer science but I was absolutely delighted when my younger daughter picked math as her major rather than CS. Just my opinion based on my experience (moistly in CS research): programming can be picked up on your own at a later stage but there is no substitute for studying math when you are younger. Also, some of the most exciting parts of the computing field like quantum computing and machine learning are highly mathematical in nature.
Yefuy.Goje
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Yefuy.Goje »

kleiner wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:08 am I have a PhD in computer science but I was absolutely delighted when my younger daughter picked math as her major rather than CS. Just my opinion based on my experience (moistly in CS research): programming can be picked up on your own at a later stage but there is no substitute for studying math when you are younger. Also, some of the most exciting parts of the computing field like quantum computing and machine learning are highly mathematical in nature.
The problem with majoring in math is transferring that to jobs. While math majors can do a variety of tasks, there is no clearly defined path. The student has to be a bit creative to define her/his path to find a job. (Talking from my own experience.) I suspect it is easier now with all kind of blog info out there.
mary1492
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by mary1492 »

xyzzy
Last edited by mary1492 on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
mary1492
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by mary1492 »

xyzzy
Last edited by mary1492 on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheNightsToCome
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by TheNightsToCome »

nisiprius wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:37 pm I think there are actually are some online courses with much more content and rigor that do give you actual transferrable college course credits.
Coursera offers a number of online degrees. I've looked into this one from U of Penn:

https://www.coursera.org/degrees/mcit-penn

There are many more:

https://www.coursera.org/degrees/masters

During college and the first two years of med school I learned by reading the text, and in the case of med school, by reading lecture transcripts (prepared by students). For physics courses, calculus, prob/stats, gen chem, biochemistry, any number of biology courses, and many others, I derived no significant benefit from attending class, so I usually didn't.

An online course that doesn't require rigorous testing doesn't prove mastery as well as a university course that does, but in my opinion, one can learn just about anything with self-study.

I earned the CFA designation, which is 100% self-study, yet it is highly regarded in financial services; often more highly regarded than a university degree. The three CFA exams are rigorous.
KlangFool
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:34 am
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:56 pm
painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm
He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence.
painslayer,

Anyone in the world with an Internet access can take courses in those areas over coursera and eDX from the leading universities and achieve certification.

So, please tell me what are the advantages of someone in the USA with a CS college degree over those folks?

https://www.coursera.org/professional-c ... 7iEALw_wcB

https://www.coursera.org/courses?query= ... telligence

KlangFool
You could say the same for any degree.

For someone coming right out of college, the degree is it.
Not true for all degrees. For example, engineering, medical, and nursing.

As per CS, someone could show their programming projects to prove their experience. This could be done above and beyond their normal course works.

This cannot be done as easily in engineering, medical, and nursing areas.


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jayk238
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by jayk238 »

Personally i think the broadest or the most challenging foundation is what makes the field today remunerative.

Many cs majors did well because of how new it was.

Im not sure how useful it is today.

Id say applied mathematics, or engineering like computer and electrical, would be your best bet as a foundational tool.

Cs may limit him and lead to harder employment opportunities.

Of course if he can apply himself he can work anywhere w any degree. Even english.
jayk238
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by jayk238 »

Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:46 am
kleiner wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:08 am I have a PhD in computer science but I was absolutely delighted when my younger daughter picked math as her major rather than CS. Just my opinion based on my experience (moistly in CS research): programming can be picked up on your own at a later stage but there is no substitute for studying math when you are younger. Also, some of the most exciting parts of the computing field like quantum computing and machine learning are highly mathematical in nature.
The problem with majoring in math is transferring that to jobs. While math majors can do a variety of tasks, there is no clearly defined path. The student has to be a bit creative to define her/his path to find a job. (Talking from my own experience.) I suspect it is easier now with all kind of blog info out there.
Thats true only if you pigeonhole math as a end all. Math degrees-if pursued succesfully-ie graduate with As, allows one to build excellent reasoning and critical thinking skills. It allows one to easily pivot between various stem fields like chemistry and engineering and CS where the requisite skills can be addressed through an MS and later on or even during- work/internships that solidify the math value.
mary1492
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by mary1492 »

xyzzy
Last edited by mary1492 on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
bling
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by bling »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm My questions……is this a major that will lead to a solid, secure career? He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence. But he is not the kid who built his own computer at 14 nor did computer research and presented at national academic conferences at 14 nor is interested in studying “24/7”. He has no interest in attending UC Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, nor any such college in this type of academic stratosphere.
what does it mean to have a "solid and secure" career? he may not have built a computer when he was 14, but he will surely will be competing against people who have. and if he's not naturally gifted in this line of work he'll have a lifetime of feeling inferior.

Ronny Chieng's Netflix special had a joke about how Asian parents want their kids to become doctors. to save people? no. to make money. there's always some truth to comedy. money is important, but it should never be the primary reason for choosing a profession as you're pretty much guaranteed to have a miserable life, despite having a "solid and secure" career.

the best computer scientists in the world would still be computer scientists even if it paid little. many work for free on weekends on open source projects because it's their passion.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by bling »

mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 am You "could" show proficiency and expertise a number of ways. However, when you are competing for a job where everyone else has accepted credentials "proving" their ability, again, who do you think is going to get the invite for an interview?
they both get the interview because the number of jobs still far outweigh candidates. that doesn't mean the candidates are qualified for the job.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bling wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:29 am
mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 am You "could" show proficiency and expertise a number of ways. However, when you are competing for a job where everyone else has accepted credentials "proving" their ability, again, who do you think is going to get the invite for an interview?
they both get the interview because the number of jobs still far outweigh candidates. that doesn't mean the candidates are qualified for the job.
The interviewers are busy also. My guess is that the applicant doesn’t pass the HR pre-screen. I wouldn’t want to be the HR person who sends along someone with no prior work history or degree but a “programming project” to show their proficiency.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by StevieG72 »

I would HIGHLY recommend a computer science major.

Great pay and work life balance in my opinion. Your child does not need to be the next Bill Gates to major in computer science!

If it was my kid I would support it 100%.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Yefuy.Goje »

jayk238 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:10 am
Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:46 am
kleiner wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:08 am I have a PhD in computer science but I was absolutely delighted when my younger daughter picked math as her major rather than CS. Just my opinion based on my experience (moistly in CS research): programming can be picked up on your own at a later stage but there is no substitute for studying math when you are younger. Also, some of the most exciting parts of the computing field like quantum computing and machine learning are highly mathematical in nature.
The problem with majoring in math is transferring that to jobs. While math majors can do a variety of tasks, there is no clearly defined path. The student has to be a bit creative to define her/his path to find a job. (Talking from my own experience.) I suspect it is easier now with all kind of blog info out there.
Thats true only if you pigeonhole math as a end all. Math degrees-if pursued succesfully-ie graduate with As, allows one to build excellent reasoning and critical thinking skills. It allows one to easily pivot between various stem fields like chemistry and engineering and CS where the requisite skills can be addressed through an MS and later on or even during- work/internships that solidify the math value.
I come across this kind of argument a lot. Here is how I think about it.

Let's start with the promise that we're talking about the same group of people, in that we're not comparing inherently different student population.

Wouldn't it be better to major in computer science than major in mathematics if students want to get a computer science job?

Wouldn't it better to major in chemistry than mathematics if students want to get chemistry job?

etc.

If it is not then these majors add no value (more than mathematics so they should be eliminated.)
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 am
Are you speaking from personal experience or what you theorize?
mary1492,

I have a BSEE and MSEE. While I was working on my BSEE and MSEE, I worked part-time at the University Computer Center. Plus, I did part-time programing project for small businesses.

When I graduated with my BSEE and MSEE, I had 5 years of working experience. I had written multiple programs for small businesses such as inventory, point of sales, and so on. I even started a company to sell my custom software for small business.

Almost everything that I learned about networking and program is from my own self-study and/or work. It was not from my BSEE and MSEE course works.

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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by mary1492 »

xyzzy
Last edited by mary1492 on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Valuethinker »

painslayer wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:26 pm Good afternoon,
I am writing to ask about what some Bogleheads think about majoring in Computer Science. My son is 18 years old and is currently applying to college for he Fall, 2022. He is a senior in an academically strong public high school in the suburbs of a major city in the US. He is also an above average athlete…..committed to his sport and goes to practice 5-6 days per week on his own accord. He has participated in his sport at the state level since his Freshman year in high school. However, he is not a Division 1 prospect and he also doesn’t want to participate at the collegiate level on a scholarship or grant—-too much time needed for his sport and there is very little chance of playing at the professional or Olympic level.
He is good in STEM courses and scored in the 95th percentile on his SAT on taking it only once. His GPA is 4.2 weighted…..he has taken Honors courses and AP courses and has received a mix of A’s and B’s in these courses. I also feel that he doesn’t spend hours upon hours studying……I think if he was 110% “focused”, he would be doing even better. I have talked to him about dedication, focus, patience and hard work to do well in college, especially in a major like Computer Science. Lastly, he has also been accepted into this major a a large public state school in the Midwest.
We have researched this major well. My questions……is this a major that will lead to a solid, secure career? He is interested in Cybersecurity, Data Science, and Artificial Intelligence. But he is not the kid who built his own computer at 14 nor did computer research and presented at national academic conferences at 14 nor is interested in studying “24/7”. He has no interest in attending UC Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Harvard, nor any such college in this type of academic stratosphere.
He is bright, a good stable person, social with a big group of many friends of both sexes, and stays out of trouble.
Any thoughts on Computer Science as a major? Future career opportunities? Should he look at Computer Engineering? He has no desire to be an engineer at this time. He wants to attend a large state school because of the academics available, the school spirit, the friendships he can make, and the opportunity to participate in club sports or intramurals. He doesn’t want to attend a smaller school.
Any thoughts or direction would be appreciated. Thank you.
EDIT

He might want to consider a joint major in Computer Science and Business? Minor in Business Administration?

That would aim him towards more "all rounded" jobs than programming. Systems Analysis for example.

It doesn't sound like he is a born code warrior, although that might be a good place to start his career.

Coding is one of those weird super intense disciplines. The top 1% are probably 20x as productive as the average.

Now of course you can use a CS degree to springboard into something else. For example working for a couple of years then getting an MBA.

But it is 4 years of misery if you don't happen to really like coding. And grades which will make it difficult to catapult into an interesting job or company. The student will be surrounded by people for whom CS was a destination since they were 11.

State Universities. There are many fine CS departments. There is UC Berkeley, which also happens to be the (or one of the) best CS departments in the world (although, as always, in undergrad you get less exposure to that). Other UC schools. But there is also University Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. University of Washington. Doubtless there are others. Rankings can be searched out on the web.

Beware "screening" or "weeder" years. What some large universities do is not grant admission until 2nd year - based on 1st year grades. There are a lot of social and other pressures on first years, and certain courses are made with deliberately high failure rates to screen out applicants to programmes. I think I read that UCB does this?

As always, remember in undergrad there is more similarity than difference. Probably all reputable CS programmes are very similar in the first 3 years in terms of what they teach, textbooks they use, etc. A better university may have more famous profs (but they may not teach undergrads much or at all) and better classmates - but the material will be pretty much the same.

My perception is CS Engineering is harder to get in to. And a tougher programme - far more hours in the classroom and lab. But more options open on graduation because there are also hardware design jobs etc.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:58 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:54 am
mary1492 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 am
Are you speaking from personal experience or what you theorize?
mary1492,

I have a BSEE and MSEE. While I was working on my BSEE and MSEE, I worked part-time at the University Computer Center. Plus, I did part-time programing project for small businesses.

When I graduated with my BSEE and MSEE, I had 5 years of working experience. I had written multiple programs for small businesses such as inventory, point of sales, and so on. I even started a company to sell my custom software for small business.

Almost everything that I learned about networking and program is from my own self-study and/or work. It was not from my BSEE and MSEE course works.

KlangFool
That's wonderful. It is not CS in today's market.
mary1492,

I do not understand this statement.

A) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) with no working experience would be better than a BSEE with working/internship experience?

B) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) that did nothing outside of normal course work would be better than some CS graduate did a bunch of certifications?

I disagreed.

I would hire someone had proven to me that,

A) He/she really like this areas. Aka, they did stuff above and beyond the normal course work to show their commitment.

B) They are perfectly capable of self study and learning new things on their own.

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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by TimeTheMarket »

Excellent choice. You also need not worry if he was building robots at 6 years old. Most people in the field of "computers" never did or will, but it remains a lucrative career.

In fact, I think computer science or IT in general is quite unique in that if you're relatively intelligent you can build a good career from it even if you are not a terribly hard worker. The demand is only growing for this, and there are many who do not want, or simply cannot perform well in this field. If your son is already doing very well in STEM despite your requests for him to work harder and he's not living up to his potential (something my parents also preached to me for years, with entirely zero impact), it could be a perfect career path for him. He can still get a good job.

And, should he ever decide he really is going to work his ass of, the sky is the limit.

I got started in IT a couple decades ago but it was almost a cheat-code. I took an incompatible degree and have now been gainfully employed for many years, while in general never working all the awful hours so many claim to have to work in IT (and in truth a lot do, but a lot do not--there are plenty of 40 hour/week people in this career). As for what I do it's a combination of business analysis/software engineering/database design/architecting. I'm basically a jack of all trades and no longer great at any particular technology at all. I also have a sibling who took an incompatible degree and now is very well compensated in IT. Compared to all the years physicians and attorneys spend grinding and studying and working, the tech field can let a person circumvent a lot of that time.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by quantAndHold »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:08 am
A) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) with no working experience would be better than a BSEE with working/internship experience?

B) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) that did nothing outside of normal course work would be better than some CS graduate did a bunch of certifications?
I was a hiring manager for a both FAANG and a US defense contractor.

A) At both jobs, either degree would be equivalent to get you to the interview stage. At the FAANG, the BS or MS in CS would be much more likely to be able to pass the interview, which is geared towards testing their ability to apply what was taught in their academic CS program. At the defense contractor, the BSEE grad would be shunted off into a separate interview track geared towards electronic engineering jobs. A BSEE who wanted to do software would be tracked into lower level software jobs than the CS grads (testing and such), and would have to work their way into a programming job.

B) At the FAANG, nobody cared about certifications, either for entry level or experienced people. I had a couple of very expensive cybersecurity certs when I started there, that I just let lapse, because nobody cared. When I was interviewing the college hires, I usually didn’t even have a copy of their resume, so if they had done anything interesting outside of school, i usually didn’t know about it.

At the defense contractor, doing something besides their coursework was useful, because it made them stand out in the pile of resumes, and gave me something to talk to them about (we didn’t do coding interviews). But what we were looking for were interesting internships or capstone projects they’d worked on, not entry level certs. I was always interested in kids that had enough passion for what they were doing that they had done an independent project that they could talk about. Certifications were completely uninteresting to us. If we wanted someone to get a cert, we would send them to training and pay for it after they got hired.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Tenesmus83 »

CS is about as good of a career choice you can get now a days. Beats a liberal art degree any day.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by Devil's Advocate »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:54 pm
Devil's Advocate wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:20 pm I know that as a society we need CS and CE, but I would find it difficult to encourage my child to sit behind a computer screen for their working careers.

Aren't programmers and the like the highest percentage of those on here wanting to retire at 30? Shouldn't that tell us something?

DA
Programmers discuss early retirement on Bogleheads because software development is one of the few careers where someone might make enough money by age 30 to be able to actually consider early retirement. I see more complaining from the doctors, but by age 30, their net worth is often still negative.

As far as what people with CS degrees do all day, sitting in front of a computer and programming all day only happens intermittently, mostly earlier in their careers. Software engineers don’t really sit in front of screens any more than any other office worker nowadays.
I would have to think the median salary in CS or CE is not adequate to retire at 30. Certainly the tail end of the bell curve is way high, but so could be said for any number of jobs.

I used to peruse MMM blog and it seemed like those programmers there were unhappy, unfulfilled, and not nearly paid high enough to retire early.

That being said those of you on here have reset my opinion on CS/CE. Maybe I would not discourage my kids to do this as a career after all. Thank you all for your input.

DA
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by IMO »

quantAndHold wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:52 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:08 am
A) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) with no working experience would be better than a BSEE with working/internship experience?

B) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) that did nothing outside of normal course work would be better than some CS graduate did a bunch of certifications?
I was a hiring manager for a both FAANG and a US defense contractor.

A) At both jobs, either degree would be equivalent to get you to the interview stage. At the FAANG, the BS or MS in CS would be much more likely to be able to pass the interview, which is geared towards testing their ability to apply what was taught in their academic CS program. At the defense contractor, the BSEE grad would be shunted off into a separate interview track geared towards electronic engineering jobs. A BSEE who wanted to do software would be tracked into lower level software jobs than the CS grads (testing and such), and would have to work their way into a programming job.

B) At the FAANG, nobody cared about certifications, either for entry level or experienced people. I had a couple of very expensive cybersecurity certs when I started there, that I just let lapse, because nobody cared. When I was interviewing the college hires, I usually didn’t even have a copy of their resume, so if they had done anything interesting outside of school, i usually didn’t know about it.

At the defense contractor, doing something besides their coursework was useful, because it made them stand out in the pile of resumes, and gave me something to talk to them about (we didn’t do coding interviews). But what we were looking for were interesting internships or capstone projects they’d worked on, not entry level certs. I was always interested in kids that had enough passion for what they were doing that they had done an independent project that they could talk about. Certifications were completely uninteresting to us. If we wanted someone to get a cert, we would send them to training and pay for it after they got hired.
I very much appreciate this thread and the feedback being provided. We are currently in the same situation as the OP, a child with a high GPA (5.0) with more natural aptitude in math/STEM, very active in higher level sports with no college advantages to the sport, seems to have more innate intelligence as he hasn't had to stress about school/studying. Has an interest to pursue CS/CE but also wasn't writing apps at 5 yrs old :D and all that but has/is taking various coding classes at community college concurrently while in HS and finds interesting and it seems to come naturally.

Like the OP, because of personal lifestyle/recreational interests, while he's applied/been offered scholarships at some bigger state schools, he doesn't at all seem enamored by the desire to pursue admissions in Ivy league colleagues or private colleges in cities/locations he finds completely unappealing (and honestly, we understand that). Only more recently after talking to more and more people he has been influenced to put in applications at places like Stanford/UC Berkely, etc. However, I doubt he'd even be considered for those schools, and I worry he'd actually not fit in because he hasn't been a live/breath 24/7 school work kid for which I presume that would make up much of those student bodies.

My questions on your post/and for OP's son:

a) How do you know what is good or not good on a particular school's CS/CE program?
We are 2 clueless parents when it comes to the world of CS/CE degrees for making college decisions. I also really find the US News & World Report type of rankings pretty poor when it comes to how they do rankings. What should he look for in a CS/CE at schools he will visit? Maybe the question is more, "what is acceptable for a program/school when it comes to a recruiter?"

b) How does he determine what programs will provide good internship or capstone projects?
And the twist I always wonder on this, is it better to NOT be the small fish at a big program and instead the big fish at a smaller program? I say smaller in the sense of "not as prestigous" of a program vs. meaning going to a very small private university.

c) Finances, time to complete degree, and post-graduate degrees?
Is it common to finish in 4 yrs? On some of the schools/scholarships, I wonder if we'll be on the hook for an uncovered scholarship year of college (scholarships only seem to be 4 yrs). This could throw another up to $60k in expenses (pending school)

Graduate school is not out of the question. Is it good to stay at the same school as undergrad if that is pursued? Is it worthwhile to pursue a masters?

THANK YOU for any responses.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by tRacer4201 »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:35 am
GreendaleCC wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:59 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:23 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:13 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:56 pm

painslayer,

Anyone in the world with an Internet access can take courses in those areas over coursera and eDX from the leading universities and achieve certification.

So, please tell me what are the advantages of someone in the USA with a CS college degree over those folks?

https://www.coursera.org/professional-c ... 7iEALw_wcB

https://www.coursera.org/courses?query= ... telligence

KlangFool
A native English speaking US citizen with a four year degree from a US university, who understands American corporate culture and is physically located in the same place (or at least the same time zone) as everyone else on the US based team will always have an advantage.
quantAndHold,

If the biggest market of the product/service is not in the USA, the MNC is not an American company, and it is not in the English speaking country, how does it helps?

In certain product/service, the USA is no longer the largest market in the world. Or, the leading manufacturers/producers.

KlangFool
Aren’t we talking about a US teenager preparing for a career in the US?
And, why should the employer in the USA be a US company?

KlangFool
Unless you’re 100% self driven and are extremely good at “learning”, in my experience a college degree program where you can learn from teachers and peers, actually whiteboard together, or get immediate direct help from a peer. Let’s combine all of this with actually having to show up, enrolling, and having a sense of commitment – these qualities are much harder to achieve if you’re just doing something in your own time, online. And stackoverflow is not a serious substitute for getting help with really learning data structures, algorithms, and other fundamental CS knowledge. Can it be done? Yes. But if you have to extremely driven and passionate about pulling through.

Having said that, I do think teachyourselfcs.com is a pretty good resource.

Also, physical geography still matters. Many companies will not hire you if you’re in location X simply because of tax concerns, lack of confidence in whether the US government might blacklist the country, etc.

An engineer working at a big tech company is paid significantly more in the US than having the same role at the same company in Canada or US. And I’m referring specifically to the big tech companies that have the highest pay scales.
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painslayer
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by painslayer »

Thank you everyone for outstanding perspectives. I am grateful to you all…..the information was invaluable and can only be obtained from those in the field and those with many years of experience! A kid who goes to college or just graduates college really doesn’t know much of the real world and how it operates. Happy holidays to everyone!
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by twh »

IMO wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:15 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:52 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:08 am
A) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) with no working experience would be better than a BSEE with working/internship experience?

B) Are you claiming that someone ( CS fresh graduate) that did nothing outside of normal course work would be better than some CS graduate did a bunch of certifications?
I was a hiring manager for a both FAANG and a US defense contractor.

A) At both jobs, either degree would be equivalent to get you to the interview stage. At the FAANG, the BS or MS in CS would be much more likely to be able to pass the interview, which is geared towards testing their ability to apply what was taught in their academic CS program. At the defense contractor, the BSEE grad would be shunted off into a separate interview track geared towards electronic engineering jobs. A BSEE who wanted to do software would be tracked into lower level software jobs than the CS grads (testing and such), and would have to work their way into a programming job.

B) At the FAANG, nobody cared about certifications, either for entry level or experienced people. I had a couple of very expensive cybersecurity certs when I started there, that I just let lapse, because nobody cared. When I was interviewing the college hires, I usually didn’t even have a copy of their resume, so if they had done anything interesting outside of school, i usually didn’t know about it.

At the defense contractor, doing something besides their coursework was useful, because it made them stand out in the pile of resumes, and gave me something to talk to them about (we didn’t do coding interviews). But what we were looking for were interesting internships or capstone projects they’d worked on, not entry level certs. I was always interested in kids that had enough passion for what they were doing that they had done an independent project that they could talk about. Certifications were completely uninteresting to us. If we wanted someone to get a cert, we would send them to training and pay for it after they got hired.
I very much appreciate this thread and the feedback being provided. We are currently in the same situation as the OP, a child with a high GPA (5.0) with more natural aptitude in math/STEM, very active in higher level sports with no college advantages to the sport, seems to have more innate intelligence as he hasn't had to stress about school/studying. Has an interest to pursue CS/CE but also wasn't writing apps at 5 yrs old :D and all that but has/is taking various coding classes at community college concurrently while in HS and finds interesting and it seems to come naturally.

Like the OP, because of personal lifestyle/recreational interests, while he's applied/been offered scholarships at some bigger state schools, he doesn't at all seem enamored by the desire to pursue admissions in Ivy league colleagues or private colleges in cities/locations he finds completely unappealing (and honestly, we understand that). Only more recently after talking to more and more people he has been influenced to put in applications at places like Stanford/UC Berkely, etc. However, I doubt he'd even be considered for those schools, and I worry he'd actually not fit in because he hasn't been a live/breath 24/7 school work kid for which I presume that would make up much of those student bodies.

My questions on your post/and for OP's son:

a) How do you know what is good or not good on a particular school's CS/CE program?
We are 2 clueless parents when it comes to the world of CS/CE degrees for making college decisions. I also really find the US News & World Report type of rankings pretty poor when it comes to how they do rankings. What should he look for in a CS/CE at schools he will visit? Maybe the question is more, "what is acceptable for a program/school when it comes to a recruiter?"

b) How does he determine what programs will provide good internship or capstone projects?
And the twist I always wonder on this, is it better to NOT be the small fish at a big program and instead the big fish at a smaller program? I say smaller in the sense of "not as prestigous" of a program vs. meaning going to a very small private university.

c) Finances, time to complete degree, and post-graduate degrees?
Is it common to finish in 4 yrs? On some of the schools/scholarships, I wonder if we'll be on the hook for an uncovered scholarship year of college (scholarships only seem to be 4 yrs). This could throw another up to $60k in expenses (pending school)

Graduate school is not out of the question. Is it good to stay at the same school as undergrad if that is pursued? Is it worthwhile to pursue a masters?

THANK YOU for any responses.
Retired tech person...also went to many campuses to recruit, including some of the ones mentioned in this thread...

(a) If you can get into MIT, Stanford, do it and figure out how to pay for it. If not, go to the best public university in your state. It will be fine and they are big enough to have a fine CS program and also big enough to have recruiters on campus every year looking for students. Forget prestigious unless you can get into the very very very top. All the rest don't matter. Forget out-of-state public schools - it will just cost more for the same education you can get at your own state's school.

(b) If his HS GPA is 5.0, he's gonna be fine. Plus, it doesn't matter that he wasn't a geek at 5 or 10. What matters is smart, curious, college-friend-set, do the work.

(c) If you do the best in-state public university, this will be pretty painless. Yes, you can do it in 4 years. Most likely, he'll stay the summer after a couple years and can get a course or two in. If you have multiple choices for best in-state public universities, factor in the cost of housing in that school's city.

He will know pretty fast if he like CS. I knew right away. If he gets far into it and changes his mind, just make it a minor and that's gonna be worth something.
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by KlangFool »

tRacer4201 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Unless you’re 100% self driven and are extremely good at “learning”,
tRacer4201,

And, if someone does not have the above quality, why would the person be successful in this area? Having a CS degree is not a sufficient condition to survive in a fast moving technology area. What someone learned in the college would be obsoleted in a few years.

That is my main point.

If someone is not interested in this fast moving "rat race", perhaps they should go into some less demanding and slower moving area,.

You are in this area. How much time do you spend learning new stuff each week in addition to your 40 hours job? How much time each week do you spend on working and studying each week? 60 hours per week?

KlangFool
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stan1
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by stan1 »

There are a huge range of computer science and IT related jobs. Some jobs will pay $1M in total comp, others will pay $50K in salary with no overtime. And lots in between. By definition 1%ers comprise 1% of the data set. 50-75th %ers still make a good living.

Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics the median pay for a software developer, QA analyst, and tester is $110,140 which is a good paying job in large parts of the US.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-in ... lopers.htm

Even in FAANG-type companies there are plenty of degreed professionals who make in the $125-225K range. There is sometimes potential to make more, but the skills, abilities, work habits, and connections have to be made to seize on opportunities presented.
hicabob
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by hicabob »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:54 pm
tRacer4201 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Unless you’re 100% self driven and are extremely good at “learning”,
tRacer4201,

And, if someone does not have the above quality, why would the person be successful in this area? Having a CS degree is not a sufficient condition to survive in a fast moving technology area. What someone learned in the college would be obsoleted in a few years.

That is my main point.

If someone is not interested in this fast moving "rat race", perhaps they should go into some less demanding and slower moving area,.

You are in this area. How much time do you spend learning new stuff each week in addition to your 40 hours job? How much time each week do you spend on working and studying each week? 60 hours per week?

KlangFool
Being a person with a CS degree who worked in robotics for most of my career, I was sort of jealous of the mechanical engineers I worked with due to this. A super interesting field and their knowledge always seemed to be cumulative, with the old-timers running circles around the new grads. An older ME who worked on end effectors for a robotic arm came up with a clever mechanism I admired and Hans pulled out his old notebooks and showed me the same mechanism on an old German artillery piece he worked on as a youngster.
pseudoiterative
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by pseudoiterative »

Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:46 am
kleiner wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:08 am I have a PhD in computer science but I was absolutely delighted when my younger daughter picked math as her major rather than CS. Just my opinion based on my experience (moistly in CS research): programming can be picked up on your own at a later stage but there is no substitute for studying math when you are younger. Also, some of the most exciting parts of the computing field like quantum computing and machine learning are highly mathematical in nature.
The problem with majoring in math is transferring that to jobs. While math majors can do a variety of tasks, there is no clearly defined path. The student has to be a bit creative to define her/his path to find a job.
Mathematics is fascinating, when I did my undergraduate studies and was exposed to pure math for the first time I was entranced, and ended up majoring in math. It is very sad that in my country the first opportunity to learn pure math is for people in their second year of university, after 13+ years of formal education, and only then if they choose the right electives. Many people who believe they hate math hate being taught to calculate or taught to memorise weird tricks, but have never even been exposed to the real subject.

But ignoring the beauty of the subject, putting on the dreary bean-counting hat -- if I view the time I spent studying pure math purely as a business decision to enable a future career, then the decision to study math was largely a waste of time. I don't regret doing it.

Teaching myself how to program as a hobby, before university, turned out to be a very lucky move that gave access to a profitable trade, and has been a much better return on investment for me than studying pure math for three-four years. You can learn how to be a competent programmer without setting foot in a university, and sadly some people manage to complete a computer science degree without learning how to program. Many aspects of being an effective software engineer in industry are better learned on the job working in teams with experienced colleagues than learned in the classroom. The undergrad STEM degree provides signalling value and helps you get a foot in the door and may occasionally be useful if you need to do first principles analysis.
tRacer4201
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Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by tRacer4201 »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:54 pm
tRacer4201 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:31 pm
Unless you’re 100% self driven and are extremely good at “learning”,
tRacer4201,

And, if someone does not have the above quality, why would the person be successful in this area? Having a CS degree is not a sufficient condition to survive in a fast moving technology area. What someone learned in the college would be obsoleted in a few years.

That is my main point.

If someone is not interested in this fast moving "rat race", perhaps they should go into some less demanding and slower moving area,.

You are in this area. How much time do you spend learning new stuff each week in addition to your 40 hours job? How much time each week do you spend on working and studying each week? 60 hours per week?

KlangFool
Thanks for the comment. If I read this correctly, your argument is that because CS requires new learning, the college program isn't necessary and it could be accomplished independently using Coursera, Edx, etc. Let me know if I've missed anything.

And my apologies to the original author of this post, as I believe we're now going off on a tangent.

In a computer science curriculum, you learn the fundamentals and build a toolkit for problem solving. For example, learning about big O and the design of algorithms. In most day to day jobs, you don't actually write those algorithms from scratch. Most people in their CS careers will work at at least one or possibly several layers of abstraction *above* the things they learned in college. At this *particular* layer, yes – things change. There's a new version of a language, or a new library that does "X", a new way, more performant way to process "massive" data loads, etc. etc.

But at the end of the day, the most important thing is that toolkit you learned in the first place. It gave you the right mental model and provided you a set of patterns for problem solving. If you're an 18 year old coming out of high school, in my mind, it's unlikely you have the passion or drive to take on learning the mental model in your own time. If anything, you need the CS program to teach you to learn HOW to learn. Some of the things a CS program provides are:
  • * Being able to answer: "How should I think about this problem?"
    * Being able to answer:"What are some common patterns that apply to the majority of problems? How can I identify the right one?"
    * Learning how to learn
KlangFool wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:54 pm What someone learned in the college would be obsoleted in a few years.
KlangFool, I think we have a hard disagreement on this comment. In the past 20-25 years, the fundamental curriculum has not changed. The typical CS curriculum for ABET accredited schools is something like:
  • Some kind of introduction to programming course, data structures, algorithms, an architecture course, operating systems, leading towards some kind of course on security/cryptography and compilers.
  • data structures
  • algorithms
  • an architecture course
  • operating systems
  • security
  • compilers
  • And of course, the mathematics: beginner calculus, differential calculus, multi-variable calc, linear algebra, discrete math, number theory, ...
What knowledge in the standard CS curriculum is obsolete? Let's say I'm learning data structures or algorithms. Did the sorting algorithms change? Are databases now designed and implemented using data structures other than B trees or B+ trees? Did we prove NP=P and now that AES encryption project you had to implement, that was thought to be unbreakable (except maybe by some nation states?) a lie? Did we fundamentally change how NAND gates can be used to build higher levels abstraction?

Actually, I'm not so much as disagreeing with that comment. It's just outright wrong.

Edit: typos and missing words, typing on an iPhone
Last edited by tRacer4201 on Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
tRacer4201
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:01 am

Re: Computer science as a college major

Post by tRacer4201 »

stan1 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm There are a huge range of computer science and IT related jobs. Some jobs will pay $1M in total comp, others will pay $50K in salary with no overtime. And lots in between. By definition 1%ers comprise 1% of the data set. 50-75th %ers still make a good living.

Per the Bureau of Labor Statistics the median pay for a software developer, QA analyst, and tester is $110,140 which is a good paying job in large parts of the US.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-in ... lopers.htm

Even in FAANG-type companies there are plenty of degreed professionals who make in the $125-225K range. There is sometimes potential to make more, but the skills, abilities, work habits, and connections have to be made to seize on opportunities presented.
FAANG and other tech salaries are listed at https://levels.fyi

I've been at two of the FAANG companies and can vouch these numbers are accurate. $180-$200 is very achievable within a couple years of graduation with a bachelors degree. 5-7 years experience gets you to a "senior" level position where you earn $300-350K even at Amazon, which is at the lower-tier of FAANG compensation. Google and FB will have you closer to $350K-500K.
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