[Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

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narv
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[Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by narv »

[Moved into a new thread from: trouble using Anypia - no increase for delayed filing?? --admin LadyGeek]
JohnFiscal wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:51 pm
montanagirl wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:34 am OK per Whaleknives I changed with Date of Entitlement to 2019, and got my number. Doesn't make sense that Date of Entitlement and Date of Benefit should be the same, but it works.

Thanks :sharebeer
Sorry, a bit late to the game. But wanted to put this out there as the Anypia32 program is really useful for what it does.

The "Date of Benefit" input is provided so that the benefit amount can be calculated for a "future date". This is necessary sometimes when calculating benefits for spousal, etc.

If this benefit at some "future date" is required by the program you will know because anypia21 puts up a message "Benefit date must be at or after family member's date of entitlement".


Edit to add: okay, another case where this input is useful. There's an arcane wacky rule that if you have delayed retirement credits you don't fully obtain them until January of the following year. Your delayed retirement benefits for that first year of benefits will be based on the number of months from your FRA to the previous January. Then you wait until the next January to obtain all of your delayed retirement credits. That is, unless you have delayed for precisely the 48 months required to obtain the 1.32 factor (at least, for my cohort). I suppose the general rule is that you have delayed until precisely your 70th birthday. Then you will get the full 1.32 factor (etc) immediately. This was quite astonishing to me when I discovered it. It's not clear to me if those missing months of credit are ever made up.

That rule was always shown on this page at the SSA but now they have bolded the text, I guess a lot of people were surprised by this. See https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/quickcalc/early_late.html "If you retire before age 70, some of your delayed retirement credits will not be applied until the January after you start benefits."
---------

I apologize, I just joined the forum, am a little unsure about using the forum tool correctly.
John Fiscal, thanks a lot for your insightful post.

I am going through the above issue (SSA delayed benefits) and am having a rough time explaining my problem to SSA agents.
I would really appreciate it if you have any further insights since your last post (above) on this topic. I did use the anypia32z.exe, I think successfully.

To make it concrete for this discussion:
Entitlement date: November, 2020 ( at 69 years 10 months)
1st benefits check date: December, 2020

70th birthday: January, 2021 (happens to be the first Jan. after I start receiving benefits)
Current date: November, 2021
Received: 12 payments (dec 2020-nov 2021) already at the age 69 benefits amount.
Monthly amt: Received amount is same as calculated by anypia.exe but calculated for jan, 2020 (age 69).
The amount is as though I had entered entitlement date: jan 2020.
On mySSA account, there in no reference to any unaccounted credits or forthcoming adjustments for
the 10 month delayed credits!

As I said, the credit for the 10 months is still not forthcoming. Furthermore, the SSA agents have no idea what I am talking about. The 10 months credit has disappeared in some kind of black hole.
I would like to chalk it up to pandemic-related personnel shortages.
Anyone had a similar experience recently with these missing delayed credits ?

Questions:
  • SSA article says: "some of your delayed retirement credits will not be applied until the January after you start benefits."
    In the forum's opinion, in my case delayed credits should have been applied January 2021, right? What is your interpretation?
    The reason I ask is that In my case, I haven't received any adjustments at all.
  • John Fiscal, do you have any further insights/information about the comment you have made:
    "It's not clear to me if those missing months of credit are ever made up"
Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
I have dealt with this for some time now and now I am starting to doubt myself.
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Nestegg_User
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by Nestegg_User »

There's earlier threads on this, sometimes even going back to SSCRITIC days (long time BH's will know who that is):

here's the POM: https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0300615690

Here's a few Threads (here and elsewhere):
viewtopic.php?t=270053

viewtopic.php?t=105359

https://www.socialsecurityintelligence. ... t-credits/

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums ... 948-2.html

long story, short answer: your last year, since you didn't start in january, didn't include all of your delayed credits (you only got the credits for the prior years... and no ... you don't get them in arrears... those $$ for the "lost" DEC's are gone...

The "remaining" DRC's (those earned in the last year) will be credited in Jan. The "funny" thing is the case of the "age 70"... in that case, all DRC's are immediately credited!
(It's why I'm going to have mine started in NOV or DEC, so that any DRC's get credited in JAN of new year, if I don't wait until 70 (...and since my PIA is slightly lower, I'll probably start just past FRA ... in NOV/DEC... so as to also still be able to do Roth conversions in the last year)
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by LadyGeek »

Nestegg_User wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:46 pm here's the POM: https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0300615690
The link in human readable format: Delayed Retirement Credit, from the Social Security POMS (Program Operations Manual System)

First - let's help the OP.

================================
Next - Nestegg_User is suggesting here that the wiki be updated to address this topic.

Delayed Retirement Credits are in the wiki here: Social Security (Planning Social Security benefits)

If the wiki can be easily updated without needing a forum consensus, we can do the update here (but focus on helping the OP). If the updates are substantial and need additional opinions, please start a new thread to address this.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
FactualFran
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by FactualFran »

Your monthly benefit amounts for 2021 should have included delayed retirements for 10 months of 2020. For some reason, those delayed retirement credits were not included in the monthly benefit amounts for 2021.

Because SSA agents had no idea what you were talking about, consider contacting your member of the House of Representatives. Include the key facts:
  • You have tried, but failed, to resolve an issue with the Social Security Administration about delayed retirement credits that should have been in you monthly benefit amounts for 2021.
  • You started retirement benefits for November 2020 (at age 69 years 10 months).
  • The benefit amount for November 2020 (paid in December 2020) included the expected delayed retirement credits through the end of 2019.
  • The benefit amounts for 2021 did not include the expected 10 months of delayed retirement credits for 2020.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by JohnFiscal »

narv wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:38 pm
  • John Fiscal, do you have any further insights/information about the comment you have made:
    "It's not clear to me if those missing months of credit are ever made up"
Any insights will be greatly appreciated.
I have dealt with this for some time now and now I am starting to doubt myself.
Narv, Since I wrote that post it came to my attention (here or in Reddit r/socialsecurity or maybe even in the AARP Social Security forum, though I think here in BH) that the "missing" credits for the first year of benefits is forever lost and is not recouped in a make-up check (I say "missing" because that first year's benefit is based on being calculated on the DRC up to January of the year regardless of the month it's actually claimed).

I do think it was here in BH and I'll try to locate that thread/post, although maybe it shows up with the references given in the later posts in this thread.

I ​actually think it was fairly recently that I was presented with that fact of "lost forever" and it was authoritative. It was enough to halt me from considering taking it pretty much now at this time of year versus waiting until next May when I'll be 70.

Good Luck!
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narv
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by narv »

Thanks so much Nestegg_user for your answer.
Ok, I lost my Delayed Credits.

You mentioned:
["remaining" DRC's (those earned in the last year) will be credited in Jan.]
One question which still lingers for me is - "Which January?" Let me elaborate:

My entitlement started in November, 2020.
My first check came in December, 2020 (let's say x dollars). This amount is as computed for the 69th birthday (Jan 2020)

Then came January 2021 (By the way, I also turned 70 in Jan 2021) - but no DRC's were added in Jan of 2021.
I have been receiving the same x dollars in Dec 2020 and also throughout 2021. In other words January 2021 did not trigger a DRC recalculation.

The POM System you referenced says:
"
DRC increases are effective:
• in January of the year following the year the increment months were earned;
• in the month of attainment of age 70
"


As per bullet 1 above: For me the increment months (10 months of 2020) were earned in Jan 2020-Oct 2020 - and the following year is 2021 so increases should be effective Jan of 2021
As per bullet 2 above: For me (coincidentally) I also turned 70 in January 2021 (month of attainment of age 70) so another reason why increases should be effective in Jan 2021.

Am I thinking through this correctly or is my understanding flawed here?
Kind regards.

summary timeline:
---
jan 2020 __________ i turn 69
jan 2020-oct 2020 __ 10 mo credit earned
nov 2020 __________ entitlement takes effect
dec 2020 __________ first check rcvd $x
---
jan 2021 __________ I turn 70. Still receiving $x - drc recalc did not happen
__________________ This Jan. is also the Jan. of the yr. following the yr. the increment months were earned
feb 2021-oct 2021 __ Still receivng $x
nov 2021 __________ Still receiving $x
---
Topic Author
narv
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by narv »

Factual Fran wrote:
---
Post by FactualFran » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:50 pm

Your monthly benefit amounts for 2021 should have included delayed retirements for 10 months of 2020. For some reason, those delayed retirement credits were not included in the monthly benefit amounts for 2021.

Because SSA agents had no idea what you were talking about, consider contacting your member of the House of Representatives. Include the key facts:
You have tried, but failed, to resolve an issue with the Social Security Administration about delayed retirement credits that should have been in you monthly benefit amounts for 2021.
You started retirement benefits for November 2020 (at age 69 years 10 months).
The benefit amount for November 2020 (paid in December 2020) included the expected delayed retirement credits through the end of 2019.
The benefit amounts for 2021 did not include the expected 10 months of delayed retirement credits for 2020.
---

Thanks FactualFran for your response.

Few thoughts come to mind:
Is there a basic appeal mechanism within SSA, without using a lawyer.
Are there professional consultants who could appeal to SSA on my behalf (for a fee?). I wonder how expensive they are - just thinking out aloud.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by HueyLD »

Did you by any chance receive all the DRCs thru Nov. 2020 in your first benefit check?

What were your PIAs in 2019, 2020 and 2021? The PIAs have been adjusted for inflation each year and that could account for part of the differences.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by FactualFran »

narv wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:57 pm Few thoughts come to mind:
Is there a basic appeal mechanism within SSA, without using a lawyer.
Are there professional consultants who could appeal to SSA on my behalf (for a fee?). I wonder how expensive they are - just thinking out aloud.
You can try contacting your local SSA office rather calling the national phone number. Before contacting a lawyer, contact your member of the House of Representatives. Use the Find Your Representative web page to get the contact information.

In another post you wrote: "Then came January 2021 (By the way, I also turned 70 in Jan 2021) - but no DRC's were added in Jan of 2021. I have been receiving the same x dollars in Dec 2020 and also throughout 2021."

That raises an additional issue. If the monthly benefit amounts were the same in Dec 2020 and throughout 2021, then you did not receive the Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA) of 1.3%. (It is possible that the COLA amount was coincidentally equal to the increase in the Medicare premium and other deductions automatically taken.)
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by Nestegg_User »

while the IRS doesn't have an ombudsman, there is an IRS Tax Advocate Service (https://www.irs.gov/taxpayer-advocate)

while I haven't dealt with them, others might be able to indicate how effective they have been for resolving any issues

It sounds as though you should have had the remaining ten months of DRC's credited in Jan '21, with the payment starting in february. you might want to talk to the Advocate Service to determine what happened...did you get the credits? (another poster questioned whether the increase in SS basically offset the increase... and the small COL increase...seems unlikely, unless you are in IRMAA-land)
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by crefwatch »

--the "missing" credits for the first year of benefits is forever lost--

I think it's better not to use the terms "forever lost". It suggests that you made a catastrophic error. But in fact, it simply means that the SS system saves money by not paying the DRCs for the year in which you start benefits. You didn't "lose" them, they never existed.

That said, I'm still waiting for those DRCs I should have started getting in January, 2021, ten months ago. Started benefits in May, 2020, age 69. I've called both the national and local offices, and have been treated well, but no clear answer, other than "wait."
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by Info_Hound »

Thank you for this thread!

I finally began my much delayed SS benefits under my name in November 2021. SS Rep informed me what my payment would be for November and December 2021, then a larger payment starting January 2022. He made it clear this was not COLA, but in addition to the 2022 COLA. I asked why but the response made no sense to me. Further mudding the water was my birthday falls in early January when I actually turn 70.

I had not heard of, or if I had, did not understand what DRCs were and their impact. So OP, you were not alone. Thank you to all the BHs who took time to provide their responses. There are many lurkers on this forum that are helped too just by sharing your knowledge. :beer
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by JohnFiscal »

crefwatch wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:23 am --the "missing" credits for the first year of benefits is forever lost--

I think it's better not to use the terms "forever lost". It suggests that you made a catastrophic error. But in fact, it simply means that the SS system saves money by not paying the DRCs for the year in which you start benefits. You didn't "lose" them, they never existed.

That said, I'm still waiting for those DRCs I should have started getting in January, 2021, ten months ago. Started benefits in May, 2020, age 69. I've called both the national and local offices, and have been treated well, but no clear answer, other than "wait."
Point taken, as I am the culprit! I suppose in my layman's way, I just try to assure people that those funds they think they'll get really aren't that much cash in the big scheme of things

I know there were a couple threads in this fall about missing DRCs in the second year of retirement, same situation as you encountered, so this may be a "thing" in this pandemic time. Those threads are really what prompted me to follow my original plan to delay until 70, which is next May. I had been waffling on that a bit. But by waiting until I am 70 I don't think there should be any issue with the factor to be applied for my benefits.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by Nestegg_User »

JohnFiscal wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:36 am
crefwatch wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:23 am --the "missing" credits for the first year of benefits is forever lost--

I think it's better not to use the terms "forever lost". It suggests that you made a catastrophic error. But in fact, it simply means that the SS system saves money by not paying the DRCs for the year in which you start benefits. You didn't "lose" them, they never existed.

That said, I'm still waiting for those DRCs I should have started getting in January, 2021, ten months ago. Started benefits in May, 2020, age 69. I've called both the national and local offices, and have been treated well, but no clear answer, other than "wait."
Point taken, as I am the culprit! I suppose in my layman's way, I just try to assure people that those funds they think they'll get really aren't that much cash in the big scheme of things

I know there were a couple threads in this fall about missing DRCs in the second year of retirement, same situation as you encountered, so this may be a "thing" in this pandemic time. Those threads are really what prompted me to follow my original plan to delay until 70, which is next May. I had been waffling on that a bit. But by waiting until I am 70 I don't think there should be any issue with the factor to be applied for my benefits.
JohnFiscal

as noted, since you will start SS at 70, all the delayed retirement credits will immediately apply (see POMS I gave earlier). As noted in the threads I posted before it's a different case for those drawing before FRA in that the reductions apply immediately but the DRC's only apply in Jan of a year after (n+1 of the year of applying) unless at 70; strange, but it's been that forever... likely a vestige of the time before computers etc where any type of "true up" in credits was only done once a year (similar to why the IRMAA gets applied for the two years prior income, as it must have taken some time to examine all the records before computerization)
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by JohnFiscal »

Nestegg_User wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:49 am ... likely a vestige of the time before computers etc where any type of "true up" in credits was only done once a year (similar to why the IRMAA gets applied for the two years prior income, as it must have taken some time to examine all the records before computerization)
It's understandable that they may (at one time at least) have wanted to run those DRC calculations only once per year (for January).

I wonder if the "bamboo sticks" are still used for record keeping? I read about that clever method in this fascinating inside look at the SSA https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by crefwatch »

It will not solve everyone else's particular problems, but I want to share the result of my call to my local office today. I've called the main number twice, and the local office once, in 10 months. (Payment started 5/2020, only received 1.3% COLA increase in January, 2021.)

I got a competent, if not swift-moving employee, who asked me to wait while she did some calculations. She found a likely error, and composed an internal message to send for study. I should expect a letter within 60 days, either granting or explaining.

She said it was clear that I was only getting paid for 40 months of DRC, but I had earned 44 months of DRC. That is, the months from January 2020 to April 2020 are missing in action. That is a useful piece of information, if I have to call again. I suggest that before you call again, make up a grid-calendar, and try to estimate (i.e. within one month, say) those two numbers for you. Then you are armed to ask, "How many months of DRC am I getting paid for?"
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narv
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by narv »

I applied in 2020 (after I turned 69 years and some).
Entitlement date was Nov 2020. I was 69y 10mo. I got my first payment in Dec 2020. SSA did that correctly.
The amt rcvd correctly include DRC upto 69 years age. Say that was $x. All good up to this point.

Come Jan 2021 - I turned 70. Both for being JAN and for turning 70 that month SS should then automatically recompute payment to include the not-yet-included 10 months DRC from Jan 2020-Oct 2020 ($x+10 mo DRC). And then they should apply 1.3% COLA to that re-calculated figure i.e. starting Jan 2021

Summary of issue:
SSA did not add the 10 month DRC starting with the Jan 2021 payment.
Since January 2021 (when I turned 70) I should have been receiving ($x+10 mo DRC)*1.013.
Instead, I am still getting $x*1.013.
They just dropped the ball on that 10 month DRC in Jan 2021.

What I did:
I called the central SSA number (once) in June 2021. The agent did not quite understand the issue - but she atleast listened.
I called the local SSA number (once) this month (Nov 2021) - this guy did not even have the slightest clue what I was talking about.

Going forward, I am going to be trying a number of approaches to solve this.

The pandemic (and staffing issues) has made the whole process so much more difficult. Unfortunately, the frontline agents I spoke to have 0 clue about deferred DRCs that trigger at 70. They think in terms of earnings and any associated mistakes which is not my situation.

I will keep the group updated on any new developments as this might help others who may be in the same predicament.

Thank you all for being so kind and patient.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by FactualFran »

narv wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:04 am The pandemic (and staffing issues) has made the whole process so much more difficult. Unfortunately, the frontline agents I spoke to have 0 clue about deferred DRCs that trigger at 70. They think in terms of earnings and any associated mistakes which is not my situation.
DRCs that trigger at age 70 is a different issue. It occurs for someone who starts benefits in the year of attaining age 70. Based on what you have posted, you started benefits in a year (2020) but attained age 70 in a later year (2021). You are missing DRCs for the year 2020 that should have been in your benefit amount starting in 2021.
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by JohnFiscal »

FactualFran wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:58 pm
narv wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:04 am The pandemic (and staffing issues) has made the whole process so much more difficult. Unfortunately, the frontline agents I spoke to have 0 clue about deferred DRCs that trigger at 70. They think in terms of earnings and any associated mistakes which is not my situation.
DRCs that trigger at age 70 is a different issue. It occurs for someone who starts benefits in the year of attaining age 70. Based on what you have posted, you started benefits in a year (2020) but attained age 70 in a later year (2021). You are missing DRCs for the year 2020 that should have been in your benefit amount starting in 2021.
FactualFran has this right. The fact that January was your birthday, and, in particular, your 70th birthday, is not relevant to the situation. You began benefits at 69 yrs 10 months, so you had 46 months of DRCs but only got 36 months due to taking benefits late in the calendar year. I believe you understand all this, it's just that when describing the situation to someone else the reference to age 70 is distracting and could tend to confuse readers, leading to think you have some other confusion...which I don't think you do.

Certainly it seems that you are entitled to the additional 10 months DRC for the period from January, 2020 (when the SSA calculated benefits with DRC for "that year") to when you claimed in November, 2020. Several posters have mentioned year-long delays in getting these later credits over the past two "pandemic" years and how that has impacted support times; even in this thread 1 or 2 posters indicated such problems.

And it's because of reading about such problems that I decided to go by my original plan of waiting until I'm 70...next May. It will cut through all the potential problems (hopefully).

So yes, you need to keep after the SSA until this is corrected. It's almost another January!
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Re: [Social Security delayed benefits - missing credits]

Post by crefwatch »

Supplement to my 11/22/21 post, the day I got a particularly helpful and sharp employee at my regional SS office. (I had talked to that office, and to the national 800 number two times each in the last 12 months, with no results.)

As noted in my previous post, she saw the omitted months of Delayed Credits, and sent an electronic message to the powers that be, on 22 November. On 21 December, I found an extra deposit of $737.00 in my bank account. On 12/24/21, I got a letter responding to my request. It begins:

We raised the monthly benefit amount beginning January 2021 to give you credit for months when you reached full retirement age 66 and did not receive the retirement benefit. ...

In your next payment, you will receive the difference
[i.e. $737] between the benefits already paid and those now due.

This is followed by bullet points seen in many notices, giving the amounts and days of the month on which they will be paid. The new payment amount (not including debits for Medicare and IRMAA) is about $50 more per month than I had been getting.

This is correct, and my problem is resolved.

However, this new amount is for December, 2021. Because I have already received my 2022 COLA letter, I will have to see if they eventually adjust the December, 2021 amount with the proper COLA calculation.
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