Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

BernardShakey wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:58 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:28 am
Wenonah wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:15 pm Being close to outdoor activities is huge if that is what you are after. On the other hand, why are you paying for Grad School for your kids? Not many parents do that--high earners or low. By 22 your kids should be taking responsibility. They can work for a few years and earn the money, work for a company that pays for part of the degree, get financial aid, etc. And truly, shouldn't one have some world and work experience before they get a graduate degree? Take it off of the table and lessen your load. Enjoy your outdoor time with the fam.
Constant debate on this board. In the many education threads there are parents even paying for medical school. Seems absolutely bananas to me, and I don't think I know a single person in real life whose parents paid for their grad school, but it's a common thing here on Lake Wobegon.
Well, I'm paying for my kid's medical school. If I have the money, beyond retirement savings, why not ? She busted her hump for years to get in and I know she will continue to work hard. Should I just pad my retirement nest egg a little more and buy a couple of unnecessary luxury cars --- and watch her come out of residency at age 30 with $300k+ of debt ? That would be absolutely bananas in my book :wink:
Fully agree with BernardShakey here.
User avatar
bampf
Posts: 1104
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:19 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by bampf »

Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:53 am
BernardShakey wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:39 am
I disagree. 529's are a great option for someone like the OP making solid money and already maxing out tax-deferred accounts. His emphasis on higher education suggests he will spend it. 3 kids, undergraduate school, maybe one to med school, law school, etc. He could spend $750k before he's done. 529's are tailor made for people like the OP.
I think you are exactly right.
Assuming a 10% return on investments per year and a contribution of $36K a year, OP can anticipate a future value of ~$1.45 million in 13 years. That is a fairly good size nest egg for education. Nothing wrong with that of course. The average cost of an Ivy league full tuition is ~$225K right now. Surely the costs will grow. Perhaps it doubles to $450K for a full boat Ivy in 13 years. OP didn't ask about 529s, and as such I shouldn't have taken the turn down this rabbit hole. My reason for mentioning this is that it can send a certain amount of anxiety through parents when people talk about the kind of money that needs to be packed away for university. In my experience I wasted a lot of time and emotion worrying about something that wasn't a big deal in retrospect.

My point to parents out there is that you don't necessarily need $500K per kid for university. In fact you most likely need far less. However to each their own. Upwards and onwards.
Nescio
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

JackoC wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:22 am It's true to say this isn't common. But the main reason IMO it isn't common is so few people can afford to do it.
I think this is exactly right. It is same thing that happens in the threads where someone asks how much income or net worth do I need to have in order to buy an $X house, and then getting responses that say “I would never buy $X dollar house.”
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by nigel_ht »

Starfish wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:48 pm
bradinsky wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:40 pm
Starfish wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:46 pm
bradinsky wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:37 pm Just curious as to how life is better in a VHCOL area versus just a HCOL area? Not trying to be wise but just fascinated.
Isn't that the reason why an area if higher cost?
For kids, better schools, better peers, plenty more educational opportunities, more density/walkability to meet friends etc., more activities and nature etc
“Better peers” is a weird statement. You can have great peers & friends at all socio-economic levels. Certainly snobbish!
I want a group were I can learn from people around me. I don't want my kid to be the best in the class, I want plenty or role models, I want intellectually interesting people, and I don't want him to be exposed too early to certain behaviors. Where do I have a better chance to find these people, in Opioid Valley or Palo alto?
How is this snobbish, isn't this what everybody wants for their kids, good education and a good entourage?
Mmmm...our best schools also have a drug problem but its a better class of drugs. But I generally agree about the better peers...or more accurately a nice set of diverse peers where your kid/family is a bit above median.

Alternatively, you can go the best peers path but our socioeconomic status would be below median in that set but probably not far enough below that the kids would feel lucky just to be there. That scenario doesn't seem comfortable.

My cousin jokes that his kid is definitely the charity case at his private...and he makes more than I do.

I like being the dumbest person in the room...as long as everyone else doesn't treat me that way...lol.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by nigel_ht »

Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:42 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
We deliberately picked the 3rd best high school in our district. It's a strong school system though. Probably also about 3rd strongest in the general area.
Young Boglehead
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:11 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Young Boglehead »

I felt really bad for the kids that went to some of my nearby schools and I think it made it significantly harder for them to get into the higher ranked UCs. I went to a school with just the right level of resources and competition.
Bryan995
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:01 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Bryan995 »

1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.

HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
Carol88888
Posts: 711
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:24 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Carol88888 »

The fact that you would be going into debt to make this move makes me wonder if your quality of life will improve. Debt itself is stressful.

And after the honeymoon period is over in your new location, I am sure you will discover some drawbacks you didn't foresee.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:26 am 1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.

HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
What would you suggest I do instead with the existing home equity?
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Carol88888 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:33 am The fact that you would be going into debt to make this move makes me wonder if your quality of life will improve. Debt itself is stressful.

And after the honeymoon period is over in your new location, I am sure you will discover some drawbacks you didn't foresee.
I fully hear you on debt being stressful. That is sort of the whole point of my initial post. What I am wondering in my head is what else are we going to do with our future income. As I mentioned earlier, we are not the type of people who are looking to retire at 45. We also have a pretty good start on funding our kids' education and our own retirement.

And I also fully anticipate unforeseen negatives in the VHCOL area. The question is whether those negatives are an improvement over the negatives of my current HCOL area. I am trying to not fall prey to the grass-is-greener mentality, but right now the grass definitely seems greener. If that turns out to not be the case, I suppose we could always move again in another ten years.
Last edited by Electrified on Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bryan995
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:01 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Bryan995 »

Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:38 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:26 am 1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.

HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
What would you suggest I do instead with the existing home equity?
Do something where it works for you. Investments / RE rentals etc. Use the leverage your income allows for. Especially in times of high inflation.
Primary home equity is just stale sad sad money!
Last edited by Bryan995 on Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:44 am
Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:38 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:26 am 1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.

HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
What would you suggest I do instead with the existing home equity?
Do something where it works for you. Investments / RE rentals etc. Use the leverage your income allows for. Primary home equity is just stale sad sad money ha!
You have not really provided rationale for any of your assertions, so it is difficult to seriously evaluate your comments.
TimeTheMarket
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:49 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by TimeTheMarket »

At my age (40's) I wouldn't. I do sometimes regret not having tried to get into socal twenty years ago but heck how could I have known?

To me going from an HCOL to a VHCOL would be a reduction in quality of life. A key measure in my opinion is time spent in a vehicle. Seems to me a lot of people in hcol+ areas spend hilarious/absurd/ridiculous/outrageous amounts of time in their cars. I currently am in a MCOL or even LCOL area (western NY). My kids all go to the same school, which is a 5 minute drive. My work, when I go, is 8 minutes. Grocery store is 3-4 minutes. Wife's job, before she quit, was 20 minutes.

It took me a long time but location, location, location finally drove home to me. When you have kids the single best, in my opinion, way to increase quality of life is to cut down on transportation time, which grows exponentially as they get older. You need enough rooms in a house for people, but they can be small, and a tiny yard also doesn't matter at the end of the day.

I'm in a 4-bedroom/3-car new build that is worth no more than $450k on a half acre of land on a private street. Private school tuition here I am sending all three kids to a school for about $20k.
Username is not serious :)
bltn
Posts: 1844
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by bltn »

JBTX wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:28 pm I am not sure how moving to a vhcol area improves quality of life, especially for kids.
The kids don t care. It s purely for the adults.

I would probably not make this move unless I could be sure that the changes would improve my life such that it would be worth several, or more, additional years of work to achieve financial independence.

My family moved from a lcol area to a mcol area to increase my wife's contentment with our lives, years ago. I continued in my job and simply added an hour of driving time each way to work and back. Amazing how much less traffic there was at 4:30 in the morning!! The drive home at night was often well more than an hour.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

bltn wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:13 pm
JBTX wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:28 pm I am not sure how moving to a vhcol area improves quality of life, especially for kids.
The kids don t care. It s purely for the adults.
I somewhat agree, although I think there is a decent likelihood that kids' quality of life will improve if their parents' quality of life improves.
JBTX
Posts: 11227
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:46 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JBTX »

Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:59 pm
bltn wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:13 pm
JBTX wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:28 pm I am not sure how moving to a vhcol area improves quality of life, especially for kids.
The kids don t care. It s purely for the adults.
I somewhat agree, although I think there is a decent likelihood that kids' quality of life will improve if their parents' quality of life improves.
It's all about the specifics. I think I later responded given the specifics of your situation saving $85,000 in private school can fund a lot of other things and as you described the situation the move made sense. But my straggling initial comment gets most of the attention.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

TimeTheMarket wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:22 pm To me going from an HCOL to a VHCOL would be a reduction in quality of life. A key measure in my opinion is time spent in a vehicle. Seems to me a lot of people in hcol+ areas spend hilarious/absurd/ridiculous/outrageous amounts of time in their cars.
What if some of the transportation time could be mitigated by moving to a location where less driving would be required, for example, at least by being close to schools and a good chunk of the kids' activities?
random_walker_77
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:49 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by random_walker_77 »

Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:42 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
Electrified, I used to 100% agree with you. But now that my kids are nearing high school, I'm seeing a bit more nuance to this. We bought into a neighborhood specifically because of the exemplary schools. For elementary school and middle school, it's been great. The high school was the headline attraction. It shows up prominently on national lists, and really does seem to be a very high performance school. For example, it's got a similar student population size as other high schools in the district, but whereas the number of National Merit Semifinalists from the other high schools is typically 2-8, maybe 15 for a particularly good school, this high school typically has 40-80 semifinalists every year.

I think it's important to be in a good district w/ a good peer group, but being in the very best school in the district might be undesirable. In this district, all of the high schools have the same curriculum, similar teachers, though many of the other schools have newer/better facilities. But to attend this HS, you have to buy into certain neighborhoods and there's definitely a stiff premium to housing prices tied to the reputation of this school.

From what I'm seeing, the superior academic performance is directly tied to demographics. The highest performing students come from families that highly value education. It's particularly obvious due to the ethnic last names. Test performance, broken down by ethnicity, also show the correlation. This school has a particularly high concentration, due to self-selection by families that buy in specifically for the schools. Performance on the state tests is similar among this demographic at the other schools in the district, but this high school has better overall ratings because the minority population is much higher. In other words, the main "magic" of this school is that there are a lot of other very competitive and hardworking kids here, all of whom are being driven to be in the top 6%. They train for academics they way other families might train for football or soccer, starting with supplementary academic tutoring and extra coursework starting early in the elementary school years.

I'm also in this demographic, and it's startling to hear from older parents in this competitive demographic that even they think the high schools are too crazy and competitive. The HS teachers here don't necessarily teach better than in the other schools nor even adequately explain the subject, but because of the academic arms race, it doesn't matter -- the top kids have the support and the motivation -- they'll find a way to learn the material thoroughly. It's the kind of school where you can't get into the top 10% without taking a dozen AP classes, since the gpa for the top 10% is somewhere well north of 5.3 (out of a possible 6.0 on AP/IB classes). This, in a state where the top 6% get automatic admittance to the state flagship.

So I'm starting to think that my kids might be better served by attending another HS in the same district. It'll have the same curriculum offerings, but my kids would likely be in the top 6% and maybe even valedictorian. The competition wouldn't be quite so cutthroat, and the reduced stress would be a good thing. (Don't get me wrong, they'd still have to work their tails off, but at the same time, there is such a thing as too much stress...)

Perhaps Wannaretireearly is warning you about buying into my neighborhood, because it's definitely not the best fit for every child.
jarjarM
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jarjarM »

random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:29 pm
Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:42 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
Electrified, I used to 100% agree with you. But now that my kids are nearing high school, I'm seeing a bit more nuance to this. We bought into a neighborhood specifically because of the exemplary schools. For elementary school and middle school, it's been great. The high school was the headline attraction. It shows up prominently on national lists, and really does seem to be a very high performance school. For example, it's got a similar student population size as other high schools in the district, but whereas the number of National Merit Semifinalists from the other high schools is typically 2-8, maybe 15 for a particularly good school, this high school typically has 40-80 semifinalists every year.

I think it's important to be in a good district w/ a good peer group, but being in the very best school in the district might be undesirable. In this district, all of the high schools have the same curriculum, similar teachers, though many of the other schools have newer/better facilities. But to attend this HS, you have to buy into certain neighborhoods and there's definitely a stiff premium to housing prices tied to the reputation of this school.

From what I'm seeing, the superior academic performance is directly tied to demographics. The highest performing students come from families that highly value education. It's particularly obvious due to the ethnic last names. Test performance, broken down by ethnicity, also show the correlation. This school has a particularly high concentration, due to self-selection by families that buy in specifically for the schools. Performance on the state tests is similar among this demographic at the other schools in the district, but this high school has better overall ratings because the minority population is much higher. In other words, the main "magic" of this school is that there are a lot of other very competitive and hardworking kids here, all of whom are being driven to be in the top 6%. They train for academics they way other families might train for football or soccer, starting with supplementary academic tutoring and extra coursework starting early in the elementary school years.

I'm also in this demographic, and it's startling to hear from older parents in this competitive demographic that even they think the high schools are too crazy and competitive. The HS teachers here don't necessarily teach better than in the other schools nor even adequately explain the subject, but because of the academic arms race, it doesn't matter -- the top kids have the support and the motivation -- they'll find a way to learn the material thoroughly. It's the kind of school where you can't get into the top 10% without taking a dozen AP classes, since the gpa for the top 10% is somewhere well north of 5.3 (out of a possible 6.0 on AP/IB classes). This, in a state where the top 6% get automatic admittance to the state flagship.

So I'm starting to think that my kids might be better served by attending another HS in the same district. It'll have the same curriculum offerings, but my kids would likely be in the top 6% and maybe even valedictorian. The competition wouldn't be quite so cutthroat, and the reduced stress would be a good thing. (Don't get me wrong, they'd still have to work their tails off, but at the same time, there is such a thing as too much stress...)

Perhaps Wannaretireearly is warning you about buying into my neighborhood, because it's definitely not the best fit for every child.
This is very true. We have several co-workers who's kids are either in high school of our school district or just graduated, the academic competition is fierce and the stress on the student is quite significant. Not all kids will thrive in that environment, there's several letters to editors written in the local newspaper by the HS students complaining about the "Syisyphean lifestyle". There's limited slots to the AP class and it actually reduce students competitiveness in school application due to lack of access to the such AP courses.

Similar to random_walker_77, we're in the same demographic that values education highly but we're seriously considering switching school district pending how our little kiddo (in pre-K right now) do in the first couple years of real school. As random_walker_77 mentioned, in our city, the same demographic actually perform very similarly in the other schools of the same district and the ONLY reason this school is better is due to high concentration of said demographics in this school. YMMV.
FireProof
Posts: 960
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by FireProof »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:25 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:46 pm
bradinsky wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:37 pm Just curious as to how life is better in a VHCOL area versus just a HCOL area? Not trying to be wise but just fascinated.
Isn't that the reason why an area if higher cost?
For kids, better schools, better peers, plenty more educational opportunities, more density/walkability to meet friends etc., more activities and nature etc
Quality of life appears to have little association with cost of living https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... e-by-state. COL is strongly associated with concentration of high-paying jobs though.
Quality of life depends on the tastes of the person. If you value weather a lot, as OP has expressed, most of the US outside of California and a few parts of Hawaii (i.e. VHCOL) is really lousy (of course, that's another matter of taste - some people say they love the weather in Minnesota or Florida).
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

jarjarM wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:50 pm
random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:29 pm
Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:42 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
Electrified, I used to 100% agree with you. But now that my kids are nearing high school, I'm seeing a bit more nuance to this. We bought into a neighborhood specifically because of the exemplary schools. For elementary school and middle school, it's been great. The high school was the headline attraction. It shows up prominently on national lists, and really does seem to be a very high performance school. For example, it's got a similar student population size as other high schools in the district, but whereas the number of National Merit Semifinalists from the other high schools is typically 2-8, maybe 15 for a particularly good school, this high school typically has 40-80 semifinalists every year.

I think it's important to be in a good district w/ a good peer group, but being in the very best school in the district might be undesirable. In this district, all of the high schools have the same curriculum, similar teachers, though many of the other schools have newer/better facilities. But to attend this HS, you have to buy into certain neighborhoods and there's definitely a stiff premium to housing prices tied to the reputation of this school.

From what I'm seeing, the superior academic performance is directly tied to demographics. The highest performing students come from families that highly value education. It's particularly obvious due to the ethnic last names. Test performance, broken down by ethnicity, also show the correlation. This school has a particularly high concentration, due to self-selection by families that buy in specifically for the schools. Performance on the state tests is similar among this demographic at the other schools in the district, but this high school has better overall ratings because the minority population is much higher. In other words, the main "magic" of this school is that there are a lot of other very competitive and hardworking kids here, all of whom are being driven to be in the top 6%. They train for academics they way other families might train for football or soccer, starting with supplementary academic tutoring and extra coursework starting early in the elementary school years.

I'm also in this demographic, and it's startling to hear from older parents in this competitive demographic that even they think the high schools are too crazy and competitive. The HS teachers here don't necessarily teach better than in the other schools nor even adequately explain the subject, but because of the academic arms race, it doesn't matter -- the top kids have the support and the motivation -- they'll find a way to learn the material thoroughly. It's the kind of school where you can't get into the top 10% without taking a dozen AP classes, since the gpa for the top 10% is somewhere well north of 5.3 (out of a possible 6.0 on AP/IB classes). This, in a state where the top 6% get automatic admittance to the state flagship.

So I'm starting to think that my kids might be better served by attending another HS in the same district. It'll have the same curriculum offerings, but my kids would likely be in the top 6% and maybe even valedictorian. The competition wouldn't be quite so cutthroat, and the reduced stress would be a good thing. (Don't get me wrong, they'd still have to work their tails off, but at the same time, there is such a thing as too much stress...)

Perhaps Wannaretireearly is warning you about buying into my neighborhood, because it's definitely not the best fit for every child.
This is very true. We have several co-workers who's kids are either in high school of our school district or just graduated, the academic competition is fierce and the stress on the student is quite significant. Not all kids will thrive in that environment, there's several letters to editors written in the local newspaper by the HS students complaining about the "Syisyphean lifestyle". There's limited slots to the AP class and it actually reduce students competitiveness in school application due to lack of access to the such AP courses.

Similar to random_walker_77, we're in the same demographic that values education highly but we're seriously considering switching school district pending how our little kiddo (in pre-K right now) do in the first couple years of real school. As random_walker_77 mentioned, in our city, the same demographic actually perform very similarly in the other schools of the same district and the ONLY reason this school is better is due to high concentration of said demographics in this school. YMMV.
So is the takeaway here to move into a district that has multiple "good school" options, then have your kids attend the second or third "best" one?
jarjarM
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jarjarM »

Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:17 pm So is the takeaway here to move into a district that has multiple "good school" options, then have your kids attend the second or third "best" one?
Actually, for us at least, the take away is basically move into a reasonably good school district, not necessary the best school district, and see what the kid can do. If he's good, he'll do well in either situation, if not, at least he won't be super stress and actually have a childhood. Of course, this varies wildly depends on your specific locale. We live in the bayarea and there's wide report of the issue that random_walker_77 and I bought up (a quick google search will show that).
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by stoptothink »

FireProof wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:16 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:25 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:46 pm
bradinsky wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:37 pm Just curious as to how life is better in a VHCOL area versus just a HCOL area? Not trying to be wise but just fascinated.
Isn't that the reason why an area if higher cost?
For kids, better schools, better peers, plenty more educational opportunities, more density/walkability to meet friends etc., more activities and nature etc
Quality of life appears to have little association with cost of living https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... e-by-state. COL is strongly associated with concentration of high-paying jobs though.
Quality of life depends on the tastes of the person. If you value weather a lot, as OP has expressed, most of the US outside of California and a few parts of Hawaii (i.e. VHCOL) is really lousy (of course, that's another matter of taste - some people say they love the weather in Minnesota or Florida).
Absolutely, QOL was just the only remotely close objective assessment available, doesn't change that the post I was responding to isn't necessarily true. HCOL areas are not objectively superior to lower COL areas in the ways Starfish suggested; they do objectively have a greater concentration of high-paying job opportunities.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by nigel_ht »

jarjarM wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:17 pm So is the takeaway here to move into a district that has multiple "good school" options, then have your kids attend the second or third "best" one?
Actually, for us at least, the take away is basically move into a reasonably good school district, not necessary the best school district, and see what the kid can do. If he's good, he'll do well in either situation, if not, at least he won't be super stress and actually have a childhood. Of course, this varies wildly depends on your specific locale. We live in the bayarea and there's wide report of the issue that random_walker_77 and I bought up (a quick google search will show that).
If you want to game the system move to one of the worse schools in a good district.

We have 12 high schools. #9 sent the most to Harvard/MIT/Princeton with 3. #7 and #2 tied with 2. #1 sent none.

This was in the local paper.

Overall the top high schools did well to 2nd tier schools but when looking for those extremely competitive slots at elite schools coming from a school with a very high percentage of FARM (free and reduced meal) kids may be an advantage. Maybe.

Is it worth it? I dunno but there really aren’t that many slots for the number of kids who want them and if you are in that “educationally focused” demographic just understand admission offices don’t treat you as a POC because you are “educationally focused” and therefore not a URM.

https://wtop.com/prince-georges-county/ ... -category/

We all know this but sometimes they really rub your nose in it.

My cousin changed his name to something very English. Like Henry the V level English name. He mentioned since he did that he got a lot more interviews than before…

Whatever may or may not be wrong or right with the UC system at least it’s raceblind in admissions.
Last edited by nigel_ht on Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jarjarM
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jarjarM »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:56 pm If you want to game the system move to one of the worse schools in a good district.

We have 12 high schools. #9 sent the most to Harvard/MIT/Princeton with 3. #7 and #2 tied with 2. #1 sent none.

This was in the local paper.

Overall the top high schools did well to 2nd tier schools but when looking for those extremely competitive slots at elite schools coming from a school with a very high percentage of FARM (free and reduced meal) kids may be an advantage. Maybe.

Is it worth it? I dunno but there really aren’t that many slots for the number of kids who want them and if you are in that “educationally focused” demographic just understand admission offices don’t treat you as a POC because you are “educationally focused” and therefore not a URM.

https://wtop.com/prince-georges-county/ ... -category/

We all know this but sometimes they really rub your nose in it.
Actually I seen this being done first hand. The valedictorian in my high school graduating class left her ultra-competitive high school and came over to our well below average high school so that she can claim valedictorian (from a high % FARM school) and got into U-Michigan's 7 year MD integrated program (back when they still offer it).
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by nigel_ht »

jarjarM wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:02 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:56 pm If you want to game the system move to one of the worse schools in a good district.

We have 12 high schools. #9 sent the most to Harvard/MIT/Princeton with 3. #7 and #2 tied with 2. #1 sent none.

This was in the local paper.

Overall the top high schools did well to 2nd tier schools but when looking for those extremely competitive slots at elite schools coming from a school with a very high percentage of FARM (free and reduced meal) kids may be an advantage. Maybe.

Is it worth it? I dunno but there really aren’t that many slots for the number of kids who want them and if you are in that “educationally focused” demographic just understand admission offices don’t treat you as a POC because you are “educationally focused” and therefore not a URM.

https://wtop.com/prince-georges-county/ ... -category/

We all know this but sometimes they really rub your nose in it.
Actually I seen this being done first hand. The valedictorian in my high school graduating class left her ultra-competitive high school and came over to our well below average high school so that she can claim valedictorian (from a high % FARM school) and got into U-Michigan's 7 year MD integrated program (back when they still offer it).
We weren’t willing to do that but we never had ivy aspirations. My wife suddenly has a CMU fetish though. They keep sending up emails about how our kid should apply and I’m like there’s no way in heck he qualifies. They turned down a girl we know with a much higher GPA and she ended up at Cornell instead.

He did early decision somewhere not nearly as competitive…although I had read they had seriously screwed up admissions two years ago and had a hugely better yield than expected and had to scramble.

This year I heard through the grapevine that certain schools were hurting really bad because no foreign students paying full freight due to covid…lol…that danged kid has always been luckier than he deserves. If he gets into CMU after getting turned down by a lesser school his sister (the academic one) will be sooooooo pissed.

It’ll never happen though.
jarjarM
Posts: 2511
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jarjarM »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:10 pm
We weren’t willing to do that but we never had ivy aspirations. My wife suddenly has a CMU fetish though. They keep sending up emails about how our kid should apply and I’m like there’s no way in heck he qualifies. They turned down a girl we know with a much higher GPA and she ended up at Cornell instead.

He did early decision somewhere not nearly as competitive…although I had read they had seriously screwed up admissions two years ago and had a hugely better yield than expected and had to scramble.

This year I heard through the grapevine that certain schools were hurting really bad because no foreign students paying full freight due to covid…lol…that danged kid has always been luckier than he deserves. If he gets into CMU after getting turned down by a lesser school his sister (the academic one) will be sooooooo pissed.

It’ll never happen though.

Good luck to your son :beer
jackholloway
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jackholloway »

I love living in my vhcol area, where almost every day is sunny, we have a 9 out of 10 school district, and we are not as uptight as the even more vhcol area down the road. The mountains, the ocean, zoos, museums, and everything I consider fun is pretty close by. I totally would recommend moving here, and taking on a moderate amount of debt to do so.

I know some people who worked with me who hated it here, and were really happy when they went to lower cost of living areas. They really enjoyed the big yards, having seasons, and not having so many uptight people nearby.

The previous poster who recommended renting for a bit had a good idea.
Bryan995
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:01 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Bryan995 »

Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:44 am
Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:38 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:26 am 1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.

HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
What would you suggest I do instead with the existing home equity?
Do something where it works for you. Investments / RE rentals etc. Use the leverage your income allows for. Primary home equity is just stale sad sad money ha!
You have not really provided rationale for any of your assertions, so it is difficult to seriously evaluate your comments.
A bit baffled that I have to explain this? In times of high inflation and historically low interest rates it is mathematically suboptimal to pay cash for a home. The more optimal move is to take on as much ‘good’ debt / leverage as the bank will allow. If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home. But you do you.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JackoC »

Bryan995 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:32 pm
Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:52 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:44 am
Electrified wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:38 am
Bryan995 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:26 am 1). It is less than ideal to put >20% down on a home in todays climate 2). You do not have the income to justify a 1.6M mortgage.
HHI should be closer to 500k+ to do this comfortably.
What would you suggest I do instead with the existing home equity?
Do something where it works for you. Investments / RE rentals etc. Use the leverage your income allows for. Primary home equity is just stale sad sad money ha!
You have not really provided rationale for any of your assertions, so it is difficult to seriously evaluate your comments.
1. In times of high inflation and historically low interest rates it is mathematically suboptimal to pay cash for a home. The more optimal move is to take on as much ‘good’ debt / leverage as the bank will allow.
2. If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home.
1. That depends on assuming borrowing rates are relatively more attractive compared to financial asset expected returns than used to be true. Assume I'd put the money of a larger down payment into another investment instead (not spend it on other consumption). Whether today's optically 'low' mortgage rates are a more attractive way to finance stock or bond investments depends on whether I think the margin of expected return of those financial assets over mortgage rates has widened. That's pretty clearly not true if the financial assets to be purchased with the mortgage proceeds were low risk bonds, then again financing low risk bond positions with mortgage borrowing isn't a good idea generally. The general idea would presumably be to finance risk asset purchases, like stocks, with mortgage borrowing. Your opinion would seem to be that the margin of stock expected return over mortgage cost has expanded. I don't agree. I think that expected margin has more likely shrunk than expanded from its historical average since deliberate low rate policy is in part intended to get people to pile into the stock market to boost stock values and therefore aggregate demand via 'wealth effect'. And we now see historically high stock prices relative to earnings. But there's no factual answer to this, and even if one accepted that stock expected return minus mortgage cost was now lower than historical, they might still find the margin attractive, depending on preference. It's not a clear matter of fact in any case.

2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
snapvestor
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by snapvestor »

We did the opposite when the kids were still in elementary school. Went from VHCOL (sunny most of the time) to MCOL (definitely 4 seasons). It was totally worth it and would do it again. Kids got a good solid education in a good school system. Town, at the time, was very low key, small yet close enough to get anything and go anywhere you wanted. With the lower cost of living, we were able to afford doing many activities, taking advantage of all four seasons. The town has really grown in the two decades since our move. The kids are no longer kids, we're thinking of moving to another MCOL town as this place is probably now considered HCOL.

Edit: We did take on new debt to make the original move.
random_walker_77
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:49 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by random_walker_77 »

Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:17 pm So is the takeaway here to move into a district that has multiple "good school" options, then have your kids attend the second or third "best" one?
I think the takeaway is to find a good school, but beware of certain schools that might be "excessively competitive." The best school in a good school district may or may not be "too competitive." Look into it and ask around...

As you look around, another thing to keep in mind that the drug problem can be a lot worse at schools with a rich student population. Those kids have access to more money, and that sometimes results in a lot more drugs.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JackoC »

random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:33 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:17 pm So is the takeaway here to move into a district that has multiple "good school" options, then have your kids attend the second or third "best" one?
1. I think the takeaway is to find a good school, but beware of certain schools that might be "excessively competitive." The best school in a good school district may or may not be "too competitive." Look into it and ask around...

2. As you look around, another thing to keep in mind that the drug problem can be a lot worse at schools with a rich student population. Those kids have access to more money, and that sometimes results in a lot more drugs.
1. Also this seems to depend on the rules for choosing students for prestigious colleges, state system or private. 'Better school' is generally ranked by what colleges the students from that school have gotten into, or test scores colleges value(d) heavily in those decisions (how much will people really care what their kids' standardized test scores are if colleges continue to de emphasized them? I doubt as much). If the college admission process changes, also ran kids at top high schools who are still objectively darned good students in the whole state/country might get frozen out vs. objectively worse students who rank higher at other schools now implicitly more favored by the process (I'm not talking about any non-academic factors in college admissions, or any of the politics, just the thing you can somewhat control, which school). Tricky and complicated, with local knowledge needed, and a willingness to forecast where things are going. And that's all besides the issue of where your kid will turn in their individual best objective academic performance, which seems very hard to predict between one basically orderly school and another. Although, some people seem to think they have a precise handle on it so I won't argue with their (though dubvious IMO) certainty about it.

2. 'Can' be, 'sometimes', but if the hypothesis is that there's a point on the affluence curve where that problem actually gets generically worse, I doubt it. If the idea is a problem soaking through the whole society you can't get away from in high income areas, despite paying the higher cost to live there, then I agree. And like academic performance susceptibility to debilitating drug abuse is partly genetic, and there are social circles of kids taking more and less drugs, and trying more or less hard at their studies, at a wide range of schools: which group will your kid fall in with? A lot of naturally bright kids in a school won't make your kid bright (everyone here's kids are bright, of course :happy ). Likewise a relatively mild overall drug problem at a school won't prevent your kids' life being derailed because they're genetically predisposed to debilitating addiction, unless there are no drugs around at all which isn't likely anywhere now. Entirely preventing your kid taking recreational drugs in high school isn't very likely, though still a reasonable ideal to aim for IMO.
Carol88888
Posts: 711
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:24 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Carol88888 »

I re-read your question and see that you are so very young - in your thirties - and now I am thinking my original negative take on the move was wrong. When you are in your thirties you should try new things.

Nothing you do will be catastrophic and you might always regret not taking the plunge.
Arabesque
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:56 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Arabesque »

I read this thread earlier and thought you show move (what's money?), but I have been thinking and re-evaluating my initial reaction.

Much of my life I lived in HCOL areas, but then I moved from a HCOL to a LCOL, which I didn't appreciate. After almost 20 years, I have retired back to a HCOL, and though I can afford it, HCOL doesn't make sense, even if it is near family. You have to really love your family and spend lots and lots of them with them to make it worth while.

LCOL areas can be vibrate as well as cheap. My kids went to a great private school that I never could have afforded in a HCOL area. We took fabulous vacations and had a great house in a great setting. Our libraries, symphonies, and theater were good, not great, but we could afford to go regularly. We had great friendships and easy commutes. You might not want to make it harder.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

jackholloway wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:31 pm I love living in my vhcol area, where almost every day is sunny, we have a 9 out of 10 school district, and we are not as uptight as the even more vhcol area down the road. The mountains, the ocean, zoos, museums, and everything I consider fun is pretty close by. I totally would recommend moving here, and taking on a moderate amount of debt to do so.

I know some people who worked with me who hated it here, and were really happy when they went to lower cost of living areas. They really enjoyed the big yards, having seasons, and not having so many uptight people nearby.

The previous poster who recommended renting for a bit had a good idea.
Any suggestions for avoiding the uptight neighborhoods?
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:26 am 2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Carol88888 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:02 pm I re-read your question and see that you are so very young - in your thirties - and now I am thinking my original negative take on the move was wrong. When you are in your thirties you should try new things.

Nothing you do will be catastrophic and you might always regret not taking the plunge.
Thanks for the advice. I agree that we would still have time to recover if we ended up making a decision we regretted.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Arabesque wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:21 pm I read this thread earlier and thought you show move (what's money?), but I have been thinking and re-evaluating my initial reaction.

Much of my life I lived in HCOL areas, but then I moved from a HCOL to a LCOL, which I didn't appreciate. After almost 20 years, I have retired back to a HCOL, and though I can afford it, HCOL doesn't make sense, even if it is near family. You have to really love your family and spend lots and lots of them with them to make it worth while.

LCOL areas can be vibrate as well as cheap. My kids went to a great private school that I never could have afforded in a HCOL area. We took fabulous vacations and had a great house in a great setting. Our libraries, symphonies, and theater were good, not great, but we could afford to go regularly. We had great friendships and easy commutes. You might not want to make it harder.
Moving to a LCOL area is not an option for us.
anoop
Posts: 3930
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:33 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by anoop »

With an income of $350K, I could not possible recommend a $2M house. That's almost a price/income ratio of 6, about double of where my comfort level would be. It doesn't matter even if the $2M can be paid in cash. Between property taxes and maintenance you are bound to feel strain.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JackoC »

Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:31 am
JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:26 am 2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Statement: "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home."
My response: "That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true."

You lost me on how that equates to saying nobody should ever put down more than 20% on a new home. Not only was 20% nowhere mentioned, 50% was mentioned with the specific condition 'if you need to put that much down to afford the monthly payment'. So that's the long answer to your question, summarized as 'wait, what?' :shock: The short answer to your question is 'no'. :happy
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

anoop wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:44 am With an income of $350K, I could not possible recommend a $2M house. That's almost a price/income ratio of 6, about double of where my comfort level would be. It doesn't matter even if the $2M can be paid in cash. Between property taxes and maintenance you are bound to feel strain.
To quote my original post: "Property taxes and home maintenance in the VHCOL area would be more or less the same as what we currently pay."
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

JackoC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:31 am
JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:26 am 2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Statement: "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home."
My response: "That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true."

You lost me on how that equates to saying nobody should ever put down more than 20% on a new home. Not only was 20% nowhere mentioned, 50% was mentioned with the specific condition 'if you need to put that much down to afford the monthly payment'. So that's the long answer to your question, summarized as 'wait, what?' :shock: The short answer to your question is 'no'. :happy
So what percent would you recommend putting down on a new home?
Wannaretireearly
Posts: 4880
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

random_walker_77 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:29 pm
Electrified wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:42 pm
Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:03 am I say this primarily so you avoid landing in a top school district, that could be an academic hell hole for the child to succeed in. This then could lead/force private school options (double cost whammy!).
So run from the best school districts? Cannot say I agree with that logic.
Electrified, I used to 100% agree with you. But now that my kids are nearing high school, I'm seeing a bit more nuance to this. We bought into a neighborhood specifically because of the exemplary schools. For elementary school and middle school, it's been great. The high school was the headline attraction. It shows up prominently on national lists, and really does seem to be a very high performance school. For example, it's got a similar student population size as other high schools in the district, but whereas the number of National Merit Semifinalists from the other high schools is typically 2-8, maybe 15 for a particularly good school, this high school typically has 40-80 semifinalists every year.

I think it's important to be in a good district w/ a good peer group, but being in the very best school in the district might be undesirable. In this district, all of the high schools have the same curriculum, similar teachers, though many of the other schools have newer/better facilities. But to attend this HS, you have to buy into certain neighborhoods and there's definitely a stiff premium to housing prices tied to the reputation of this school.

From what I'm seeing, the superior academic performance is directly tied to demographics. The highest performing students come from families that highly value education. It's particularly obvious due to the ethnic last names. Test performance, broken down by ethnicity, also show the correlation. This school has a particularly high concentration, due to self-selection by families that buy in specifically for the schools. Performance on the state tests is similar among this demographic at the other schools in the district, but this high school has better overall ratings because the minority population is much higher. In other words, the main "magic" of this school is that there are a lot of other very competitive and hardworking kids here, all of whom are being driven to be in the top 6%. They train for academics they way other families might train for football or soccer, starting with supplementary academic tutoring and extra coursework starting early in the elementary school years.

I'm also in this demographic, and it's startling to hear from older parents in this competitive demographic that even they think the high schools are too crazy and competitive. The HS teachers here don't necessarily teach better than in the other schools nor even adequately explain the subject, but because of the academic arms race, it doesn't matter -- the top kids have the support and the motivation -- they'll find a way to learn the material thoroughly. It's the kind of school where you can't get into the top 10% without taking a dozen AP classes, since the gpa for the top 10% is somewhere well north of 5.3 (out of a possible 6.0 on AP/IB classes). This, in a state where the top 6% get automatic admittance to the state flagship.

So I'm starting to think that my kids might be better served by attending another HS in the same district. It'll have the same curriculum offerings, but my kids would likely be in the top 6% and maybe even valedictorian. The competition wouldn't be quite so cutthroat, and the reduced stress would be a good thing. (Don't get me wrong, they'd still have to work their tails off, but at the same time, there is such a thing as too much stress...)

Perhaps Wannaretireearly is warning you about buying into my neighborhood, because it's definitely not the best fit for every child.
Thanks. 100% agree. This sounds like MSJ. Don’t worry you don’t have to respond with specifics. Appreciate your post.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JackoC »

Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:44 pm
JackoC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:31 am
JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:26 am 2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Statement: "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home."
My response: "That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true."

You lost me on how that equates to saying nobody should ever put down more than 20% on a new home. Not only was 20% nowhere mentioned, 50% was mentioned with the specific condition 'if you need to put that much down to afford the monthly payment'. So that's the long answer to your question, summarized as 'wait, what?' :shock: The short answer to your question is 'no'. :happy
So what percent would you recommend putting down on a new home?
It would all depend. We bought our current home for cash. We put down 30% on the previous one. Again, the point I was agreeing with was simply that putting down more because you have to in order to afford the mortgage payment tells you, generally, you're buying too much house.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:56 am
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:44 pm
JackoC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:31 am
JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:26 am 2. That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true.
Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Statement: "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home."
My response: "That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true."

You lost me on how that equates to saying nobody should ever put down more than 20% on a new home. Not only was 20% nowhere mentioned, 50% was mentioned with the specific condition 'if you need to put that much down to afford the monthly payment'. So that's the long answer to your question, summarized as 'wait, what?' :shock: The short answer to your question is 'no'. :happy
So what percent would you recommend putting down on a new home?
It would all depend. We bought our current home for cash. We put down 30% on the previous one. Again, the point I was agreeing with was simply that putting down more because you have to in order to afford the mortgage payment tells you, generally, you're buying too much house.
We would be putting down more because we have more to put down.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by JackoC »

Electrified wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:52 am
JackoC wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:56 am
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:44 pm
JackoC wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:15 pm
Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:31 am

Are you suggesting a homebuyer should never put down more than twenty percent on a new home?
Statement: "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home."
My response: "That's easier to generalize and I agree it's generally true."

You lost me on how that equates to saying nobody should ever put down more than 20% on a new home. Not only was 20% nowhere mentioned, 50% was mentioned with the specific condition 'if you need to put that much down to afford the monthly payment'. So that's the long answer to your question, summarized as 'wait, what?' :shock: The short answer to your question is 'no'. :happy
So what percent would you recommend putting down on a new home?
It would all depend. We bought our current home for cash. We put down 30% on the previous one. Again, the point I was agreeing with was simply that putting down more because you have to in order to afford the mortgage payment tells you, generally, you're buying too much house.
We would be putting down more because we have more to put down.
As was pretty obviously the case with us when we bought for cash. :happy I simply agreed with the statement "If you need to put 50% down on a home to then afford the monthly payment relative to income, then you are flat out are buying too much home." I didn't say it applied to you, I don't think the person making it necessarily did either.
jackholloway
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by jackholloway »

Electrified wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:28 am
jackholloway wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:31 pm I love living in my vhcol area, where almost every day is sunny, we have a 9 out of 10 school district, and we are not as uptight as the even more vhcol area down the road. The mountains, the ocean, zoos, museums, and everything I consider fun is pretty close by. I totally would recommend moving here, and taking on a moderate amount of debt to do so.

I know some people who worked with me who hated it here, and were really happy when they went to lower cost of living areas. They really enjoyed the big yards, having seasons, and not having so many uptight people nearby.

The previous poster who recommended renting for a bit had a good idea.
Any suggestions for avoiding the uptight neighborhoods?
There were some luck involved. I look at the school districts for well being programs, see if the district recognizes academic, athletic, and vocational programs. Does the school just goes nuts for IB or AP - having those programs is good, but deifying them is not It helps asking potential co workers, though you then have to factor out humble bragging.

I then look at the HOA - if the houses look nice, and like places I want to live next to, that’s cool. If they all look griege and the employee of the month is the inspector, that’s bad.

I go to a restaurant or two for lunch or dinner. If everyone seems like Patrick Bateman in American Psycho, back away. If they just seem like people getting food, and discussing a mix of business and pleasure, it’s a plus.

I ruled out Palo Alto and Cupertino, but liked areas near Irvine and Berkeley. Your mileage may vary.
Topic Author
Electrified
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 am

Re: Would you incur debt to move from an HCOL area to a VHCOL area to improve your family’s quality of life?

Post by Electrified »

Just wanted to bump this thread to see if anyone’s answers have changed in view of the current situation (i.e., real estate looking bubbly, inflation running wild, etc.). We still plan to move to the VHCOL area and will do so in the next couple months.
Post Reply