When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

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investing engineer
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When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by investing engineer »

When doing tax with any tax software, what's really vexing is the fact that I can't see what has been filed. I'm always worried that there might be some bugs in the software that might incorrectly file something that deviates from the PDF they generate for me. Do you have similar issues? Is there any solution besides mailing a bunch of papers?
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by skierincolorado »

Print pdf for records, sue tax company for any deviations
Northern Flicker
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by Northern Flicker »

I've never tried it, but shouldn't you be able to generate the PDF and e-file the PDF directly at the IRS website without using the tax preparation software?
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by investing engineer »

Northern Flicker wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:12 am I've never tried it, but shouldn't you be able to generate the PDF and e-file the PDF directly at the IRS website without using the tax preparation software?
I don't think you can. The communication protocol between tax software and IRS is not the efile PDF. It's formatted so that IRS's server can insert those information directly to their database.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by palaheel »

I print the forms and file paper.
Nothing to say, really.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by SnowBog »

I always print and review a copy by hand before I efile. Now, I'm not saying I'm a tax expert, and would catch some obscure issue with some obscure form. But I'll hopefully catch anything obvious, and have a few times such as forgetting to record a Backdoor Roth correctly, and forgetting to enter child care costs correctly.

As an aside, for 2020 taxes, for the first time ever I hired a tax professional. I was transparent that I was going to use TurboTax in parallel, as I was hoping to validate I was doing my taxes correctly. (And it was a bit of a trial run, as I expected to have more complicated returns this year - but things changed and that's no longer a concern.)

My results was that my use of TurboTax was more accurate than the tax professional. In comparing the results, there were IIRC 2-3 things they didn't do correctly. One was adjusting cost basis on ESPP shares - I was willing to give a pass on that as it's not obvious. I forget the others, but at least one of them was a "really?" moment as it was something they should have addressed.

My other observation, as noted above, it's far more common to have a mistake of failing to enter something you needed to enter than an issue with the calculations/software. Which made me realize that most of the hard work is collecting all the data, and then validating it was entered. And since I need to do that anyway, it wasn't worth the extra cost of the tax professional vs. Turbotax...
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

palaheel wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am I print the forms and file paper.
Even then, your printed state return may have a 2-d barcode that the state will use to scan your return. What is encoded in that barcode is the info that the state will receive. States may disregard the neatly typed human readable numbers on your printed form and just go by whatever is encoded in the inscrutable bar code. They probably shred your return after scanning the barcode.

The IRS however has resisted barcodes. They pay armies of seasonal workers to manually transcribe your return into their computer system. Transcription errors happen (despite protocols to avoid them) and they can result in annoying correspondence with the IRS.

I actually know quite a bit about this process. (I have toured an IRS facility where this transcription happens.) I also personally know high level tax processing administrators.

My late husband used to insist on paperfiling partly for reasons similar to yours and did not want to hear my reasoning. Whatever, marital peace and harmony was worth it and I gave in to his insistence of paperfiling.

Now that I am filing alone, I efile. Yes, there can be very occasional issues with efiling (there was a famous one involving education credits about ten years ago, I believe) but paper filing generates far more issues.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

SnowBog wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:27 am I always print and review a copy by hand before I efile. Now, I'm not saying I'm a tax expert, and would catch some obscure issue with some obscure form. But I'll hopefully catch anything obvious, and have a few times such as forgetting to record a Backdoor Roth correctly, and forgetting to enter child care costs correctly.
Everyone should always review a printed copy of your return prior to filing (whether you efile or paperfile it.) You are signing (electronically or in ink) under penalty of perjury that you have examined the return and that to the best of your knowledge and belief it is true correct and complete.

This is not a casual matter, very different from clicking on "I have read the term of service" when you haven't actually read them on some random commercial website. Those are not "under penalty of perjury" situations. The IRS is quite different. You really and truly are REQUIRED to examine your returns prior to efiling or mailing them in and sign under penalty of perjury.

The OP is referring to the problem that if you efile, the IRS may receive something that is different from the printed copy you reviewed. Yes, that occasionally happens. (Example: a few years back, there was a big issue with, I believe, an education credit. When you looked at the printed form, you could see a certain box checked. But there was an issue with the efile software protocol, and what *actually* got transmitted to the IRS showed the box NOT being checked. And the problem was that the box needed to be checked to qualify for the credit. So people were getting denied the credit, even though they had correctly input their data and reviewed the printed copy.

There is no way for a consumer to know exactly what they are sending to the IRS when they efile. And if they submit a printed return with a 2-D barcode for scanning to a state tax agency, there is also no way to know exactly what is encoded in that barcode. It may not be the same as what is shown on the printed forms.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by investing engineer »

dodecahedron wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:40 am
palaheel wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am I print the forms and file paper.

Now that I am filing alone, I efile. Yes, there can be very occasional issues with efiling (there was a famous one involving education credits about ten years ago, I believe) but paper filing generates far more issues.
Thanks, that's a fair point. I guess paper filing gives a peace of mind because we are blind to what's happening.

What do you do to keep evidence of the correct filing? Would IRS generally trust the PDF files you give them if there's a problem?
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

investing engineer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 am
dodecahedron wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:40 am
palaheel wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am I print the forms and file paper.

Now that I am filing alone, I efile. Yes, there can be very occasional issues with efiling (there was a famous one involving education credits about ten years ago, I believe) but paper filing generates far more issues.
Thanks, that's a fair point. I guess paper filing gives a peace of mind because we are blind to what's happening.

What do you do to keep evidence of the correct filing? Would IRS generally trust the PDF files you give them if there's a problem?
In practice, it is unlikely that the incorrect transmission or transcription error would require "proof" of what you actually entered on the form to straighten matters out.

If you checked a box on the education credit form, for example, but the efile transmission did not transmit that the box was checked, what happens is that the IRS may deny you the credit that required the checked box, and there will be some followup correspondence involved in securing the credit to which you are entitled.

Whether you absentmindedly neglected to check the box on the original return or whether the issue was software, all that really matters is what the true answer to the question being asked with the checkbox was.

Only if the IRS thinks you might have fraudulently misrepresented something in not checking a box would it matter what you originally transmitted, but with a fraud case (criminal, not civil) the burden of proof is on the IRS, not you.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by SnowBog »

dodecahedron wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:47 am
SnowBog wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:27 am I always print and review a copy by hand before I efile. Now, I'm not saying I'm a tax expert, and would catch some obscure issue with some obscure form. But I'll hopefully catch anything obvious, and have a few times such as forgetting to record a Backdoor Roth correctly, and forgetting to enter child care costs correctly.
Everyone should always review a printed copy of your return prior to filing (whether you efile or paperfile it.) You are signing (electronically or in ink) under penalty of perjury that you have examined the return and that to the best of your knowledge and belief it is true correct and complete.
That's a big part of why I review them!

As for the OP question regarding issues with e file... Honestly, I've never given it any thought. In part as I have no way to see what's e filed, and absent of getting something back from the IRS that says otherwise, I assume that if my refund (intentional overpayment for I Bonds via tax refund) is processed that they've accepted my return and there aren't any issues.

That said, I do keep both a digital copy (both the PDF as well as the TurboTax file) and a printed copy (of the forms required for filing, not all the extra worksheets/etc.) for at least 7 years (which is my understanding of how long they need to be kept) - although currently I'm not sure I've ever thrown any of them away (so I have far more than 7 years).

I figure if there's ever an issue, this shows what I thought was filed, and if there's a difference with what they have in their side, I assume they'd be lenient as clearly there was a technical issue, not some attempt to file incorrect claims.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by vtMaps »

investing engineer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:10 am When doing tax with any tax software, what's really vexing is the fact that I can't see what has been filed. I'm always worried that there might be some bugs in the software that might incorrectly file something that deviates from the PDF they generate for me. Do you have similar issues? Is there any solution besides mailing a bunch of papers?
Yes, I paper file for the reasons you mention. I have posted here about discrepancies:
viewtopic.php?p=4438132#p4438132

Here's another reason: When I enter 1099s into the tax software, the software asks me all sorts of info about the 1099. Some of that info is not included on the paper form, but is transmitted to the IRS if you efile. When you efile, the IRS does not need your W2 and 1099 forms attached to your return because the tax software has included that info.

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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by deserat »

palaheel wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am I print the forms and file paper.
+1
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by nisiprius »

I feel I learned a lesson on paper filing in 2020. Never again.

March of 2020 I mailed paper state and federal returns. I got my state refund perhaps five or six weeks later, almost normal. My federal return... entered the Covid-19 limbo and for about five months I not only did not get the refund, but the "Where's My Refund" tool kept giving the alarming message that there was no information available (i.e. no confirmation that they had received the return). With a warning please not to send a duplicate.

It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.

As for stuff possibly happening electronically: I print the return both on paper and as a PDF file. I feel confident that if there is a glitch of the kind mentioned--program prints one thing but transmits another--it may be a nightmare but that it will be possible to unscramble it having the saved printed copy, and that the defect will probably affect many people and be known to the IRS. Isn't it likely that most of these could be solved with an amended return?

There's no perfect safety. I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)

(One of my personal dithers with paper filing is "to staple or not to staple?" When I stare at a loose stack of separate pages with a disorganized wad of mixed W2's attached to the top sheet--some portrait and some landscape, some stiff and some flimsy--I keep wondering exactly what happens to that wad of paper when they open the envelope. Do they have some kind of miraculous unstapling machine? Can their high-speed scanner tolerate stray paperclips falling into the works? Should the "portrait"-format W2's be attached so that the printing on them is right-side up, or turned sideways so they don't slop over the middle third of the page? Why doesn't Form 1040 show where to attach the W2s any more? Do they even scan those W2s with varying textures and layouts? Why does the IRS even want my copies, do they think my employer is going to send me one that is different from the one they sent to the IRS? Or is this pure "we've always done it that way?")
Last edited by nisiprius on Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:34 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dukeblue219 »

No, TurboTax has been around long enough that I have zero qualms about efiling blindly. I save a paper copy but that's it, and it's worked for decades for my 1040 + schedule C return.

Could something happen behind the scenes? Yes. But my printer could drop a blob of toner on a number, USPS could lose my envelope, or the IRS could input a number incorrectly,too.

Look at all the threads of people still upset that their 2020 or even tax year 2019 returns are unresolved because they were mailed in. Ain't worth it.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by JoeRetire »

investing engineer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:10 amDo you have similar issues?
No.
Is there any solution besides mailing a bunch of papers?
No.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

If you are concerned that theefile. data doesn’t match your return, pull a transcript.

Paper returns are also subject to errors. Lost in transit, typos ….
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

The first year my IRA RMDs began the IRS sent me a CP2000 notice indicating I owed additional taxes because I did not report $X of taxable retirement income. I clearly remembered entering my 1099-R and QCD info in TurboTax, and my PDF was properly filled-out. I sent the IRS a response letter saying I disagreed with their proposed change and I enclosed a copy of my PDF, asking them to advise me if the actual info submitted by TurboTax was different from my PDF. I don't remember whether the IRS sent me a closing notice or just never responded, but they apparently checked my submitted TurboTax info and found it matched my PDF.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by hoofaman »

I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by Zeno »

hoofaman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 am I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
+1

We have efiled ever since that started. For the period when I had multi-state partnership income, we used an accountant, but even he efiled. TurboTax works just fine for us. I trust established reputable software more than I trust either myself or another human being. Mailing in a stack of papers to a government agency seems quite risky to me.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by prd1982 »

WyomingFIRE wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:13 am Mailing in a stack of papers to a government agency seems quite risky to me.
In defense of government workers (I wasn’t one), I would suggest this should be:

Mailing in a stack of papers to any organization for transcription seems quite risky to me.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)
Sadly, no scanners at IRS. Data from paper returns is still manually transcribed. (Not on a keypunch, of course, a computer workstation, but yes it is manual transcription.)

Here is the process described by the IRS (you can watch a video to see how it works!):

https://www.irsvideos.gov/Professional/ ... ngPipeline

Key sentence:
Data Transcribers input tax return information into the computer. Portions of returns are re-entered into the system by a second transcriber to verify the original entry of the return data.
In contrast to the IRS, many states DO use 2-D barcode scanning and that is faster, cheaper, and less error-prone.

The National Taxpayer Advocate has repeatedly called for IRS use of scanning technology, but so far no appropriations to enable this.

Here is testimony from National Taxpayer Advocate in 2008 calling for switch to scanning. (Many states were already using scanning at that time.). Every year since then, the National Taxpayer Advocate report to Congress has called for it, but no progress yet.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

Scanning would be a good standard for source documents as well. It would simplify preparation for those who prepare from paper source docs if they all had bar codes with the data encoded in a standard format that all tax software could interpret and use to populate the system.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by rpl3000 »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am I feel I learned a lesson on paper filing in 2020. Never again.

March of 2020 I mailed paper state and federal returns. I got my state refund perhaps five or six weeks later, almost normal. My federal return... entered the Covid-19 limbo and for about five months I not only did not get the refund, but the "Where's My Refund" tool kept giving the alarming message that there was no information available (i.e. no confirmation that they had received the return). With a warning please not to send a duplicate.

It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.

As for stuff possibly happening electronically: I print the return both on paper and as a PDF file. I feel confident that if there is a glitch of the kind mentioned--program prints one thing but transmits another--it may be a nightmare but that it will be possible to unscramble it having the saved printed copy, and that the defect will probably affect many people and be known to the IRS. Isn't it likely that most of these could be solved with an amended return?

There's no perfect safety. I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)

(One of my personal dithers with paper filing is "to staple or not to staple?" When I stare at a loose stack of separate pages with a disorganized wad of mixed W2's attached to the top sheet--some portrait and some landscape, some stiff and some flimsy--I keep wondering exactly what happens to that wad of paper when they open the envelope. Do they have some kind of miraculous unstapling machine? Can their high-speed scanner tolerate stray paperclips falling into the works? Should the "portrait"-format W2's be attached so that the printing on them is right-side up, or turned sideways so they don't slop over the middle third of the page? Why doesn't Form 1040 show where to attach the W2s any more? Do they even scan those W2s with varying textures and layouts? Why does the IRS even want my copies, do they think my employer is going to send me one that is different from the one they sent to the IRS? Or is this pure "we've always done it that way?")
I am in same boat for my 2020 return. Sent certified and I have confirmation they got it. Still no return and I'm not sure what my path forward is now.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.
Move to NY! Tax software publishers are not allowed to charge you extra for efiling your NY return. :D
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by tibbitts »

hoofaman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 am I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
It's always more stressful to paper-file. I used to make errors on my paper returns even when I looked them over multiple times before filing. Just stupid transcription or math errors that I now avoid by importing data and having software do the math. Not to mention the concern over the paper actually being delivered and then read in properly.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by egrets »

I mailed in my paper (by hand prepared) return the beginning of April. They have it. I think they had it awhile ago, but I forget exactly when. Life is short, file paper and no software can screw up your return. After sixty or so years of filing paper returns, I am not about to change now. One arithmetic error in sixty years.
Last edited by egrets on Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:25 am
hoofaman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 am I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
It's always more stressful to paper-file. I used to make errors on my paper returns even when I looked them over multiple times before filing. Just stupid transcription or math errors that I now avoid by importing data and having software do the math. Not to mention the concern over the paper actually being delivered and then read in properly.
Paper file is not equal to hand preparation on paper forms. Many people paper file returns prepared with tax software.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

Have there ever been documented cases where the return as prepared in the software was not the same as the data transmitted? I know there are situations where the software makes “errors” in preparation but presumably the error in the prepared return is reflected in the transmitted return.

Paper filing doesn’t solve that latter case.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by tibbitts »

jebmke wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:30 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:25 am
hoofaman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 am I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
It's always more stressful to paper-file. I used to make errors on my paper returns even when I looked them over multiple times before filing. Just stupid transcription or math errors that I now avoid by importing data and having software do the math. Not to mention the concern over the paper actually being delivered and then read in properly.
Paper file is not equal to hand preparation on paper forms. Many people paper file returns prepared with tax software.
Good point, I incorrectly associated paper filing with manual preparation, although my comment about being more worried about transmitting the forms still applies. Not too long ago I decided to save the state filing fee ($20 for my tax software) by paper mailing the state form only, and what a stressful experience - not to mention waiting many months for the refund (and that was pre-pandemic.) The alternative would have been to use a free state e-file service, which although online and electronic, would have left me with the transcription errors as I mentioned.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

investing engineer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:12 am I've never tried it, but shouldn't you be able to generate the PDF and e-file the PDF directly at the IRS website without using the tax preparation software?
I don't think you can. The communication protocol between tax software and IRS is not the efile PDF. It's formatted so that IRS's server can insert those information directly to their database.
Yes, it's an XML based protocol for which the IRS publishes the spec. I think desktop TurboTax connects to Intuit's site and likely uses the same protocol. Intuit passes it on to the IRS.

There may be some ways to get the XML file that's uploaded using some hacks (for the desktop version), but I never thought it was worthwhile.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by egrets »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:36 am
jebmke wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:30 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:25 am
hoofaman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 am I would think paper returns are much more likely to create errors or mistakes as they are reviewed by humans, why wouldn't that worry you more?
It's always more stressful to paper-file. I used to make errors on my paper returns even when I looked them over multiple times before filing. Just stupid transcription or math errors that I now avoid by importing data and having software do the math. Not to mention the concern over the paper actually being delivered and then read in properly.
Paper file is not equal to hand preparation on paper forms. Many people paper file returns prepared with tax software.
Good point, I incorrectly associated paper filing with manual preparation, although my comment about being more worried about transmitting the forms still applies. Not too long ago I decided to save the state filing fee ($20 for my tax software) by paper mailing the state form only, and what a stressful experience - not to mention waiting many months for the refund (and that was pre-pandemic.) The alternative would have been to use a free state e-file service, which although online and electronic, would have left me with the transcription errors as I mentioned.
I got the post office received mailing thing for the feds but not the state, so I emailed the state and got an answer in about a day that they had the return.
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dodecahedron
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dodecahedron »

jebmke wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:34 am Have there ever been documented cases where the return as prepared in the software was not the same as the data transmitted?
Yes, I described one case above. There was a lot of publicity about it at the time. Printed copies correctly showed a box checked but the efile transmission did not transmit the checkmark. Because it was so widespread, the IRS and software publishers figured out some after-the-fact fix.

A similar type of transmission error in a relatively obscure uncommon part of a tax return might not have attracted that kind of publicity or attention, but I would have to imagine they also happen occasionally.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by Marylander1 »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.
I e-file my federal return, but sent paper for my state return until a few years ago when I switched to their free online system. I've never paid an e-file fee and intend to never do so.

Marylander1
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

Marylander1 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:48 am
nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.
I e-file my federal return, but sent paper for my state return until a few years ago when I switched to their free online system. I've never paid an e-file fee and intend to never do so.

Marylander1
Lol. My sister was grumbling about the state e-file fee on year. I asked her what software she used. TurboTax. What did you pay for it? $45. Why not buy H&R Block software for $20, pay the $20 e-file fee and pocket $5? I tried this nice wine last night you might like.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

I am an engineer. I do not assume that things would not go wrong. I assume that it will go wrong. I am prepared when it goes wrong.

I use H&R block tax software for e-filing so that if it goes wrong, I have audit support from H&R Block.

Consider the alternative. You mailed in the paper tax filing. And, it was lost and/or damaged. Who can you count on to assist you to deal with IRS?

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teen persuasion
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by teen persuasion »

I run thru our returns on paper first, so I know what numbers to expect. Then I run thru TT so I can efile.

If software doesn't agree with my result, I track down why the results differ. Only after I'm satisfied that both methods are correct, and match, do I efile.

The one year I couldn't use TT (because NY didn't have it on their free file list) and switched to H&R Block is the one time I could not get the SW to correctly figure the return. It refused the AOTC, said not eligible. Started again with TT (free file federal link), which correctly showed the credit as eligible. Searched for a difference between the inputs to each, found nothing different except the result. Sat on it for a week fuming, eventually decided to use TT despite having to pay for state filing, and then TT magically decided it was now free! So I filed quickly before that changed back.

Reading thru this thread, that credit error mentioned must have been what we saw. This must also have been about the time NY put that law into place forbidding charges for efiling state - I know it hasn't always been a law. I'd learned the hard way that if I wanted both federal and state returns efiled for free, I had to begin from the NYS tax website links, not the IRS links; they were not equivalent.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

teen persuasion wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:15 am The one year I couldn't use TT (because NY didn't have it on their free file list) and switched to H&R Block is the one time I could not get the SW to correctly figure the return. It refused the AOTC, said not eligible.
I teach volunteer preparers. In the early stage of their training I have them prepare various parts of the return by hand. After decades of doing my own returns, I still do any new form by hand.

I still catch some quality reviewers simply double checking that the forms were typed in correctly in the software. "No" I say - "Your job isn't just to check the numbers. Your job is to make sure that the return is correct."
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by tibbitts »

Marylander1 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:48 am
nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.
I e-file my federal return, but sent paper for my state return until a few years ago when I switched to their free online system. I've never paid an e-file fee and intend to never do so.

Marylander1
I would use the free online e-file for state if it could import from the usual suspect tax software, but I'll pay the $20 if it can't. The odds of me making a data entry or transcription error are just too great.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by DetroitRick »

Zero concern. I e-file and would never file paper unless I was required to.

Reasons:
- I prefer the speed, accuracy and cost of e-filing.
- I never file before March 1, often in April, occasionally later. Any ongoing issues would have surfaced by then.
- While my returns are moderately complex, I have no rare situation that millions of others wouldn't also have.
- Based on specific experience, I would not otherwise be willing to mail any critical documents and would instead use UPS or Fedex.
- Worst case, filing an amended return is no big deal anyway.
- I've never had an issue with e-filing, nor has anyone I've known. Issues have to be rare.
- Any concern can be quickly mitigated by looking at your transcript online.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by vtMaps »

jebmke wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:34 am Have there ever been documented cases where the return as prepared in the software was not the same as the data transmitted?
It might have happened to me if I had efiled a few years ago. I paper filed in order to make sure that it didn't happen to me:
I described one instance here: viewtopic.php?p=5793092#p5793092
And another here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305965

Since I always paper file, I cannot document errors in efiling. But I have seen discrepancies between what is on the screen and what gets printed out. I have no idea which number would be sent to the IRS if I efiled.

--vtMaps
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by RetiredAL »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am
There's no perfect safety. I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)
I doubt that have actual 026 machines, but I bet they have a terminal equivalent of 026 function to handle submissions that did not OCR correctly.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

vtMaps wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am Since I always paper file, I cannot document errors in efiling. But I have seen discrepancies between what is on the screen and what gets printed out. I have no idea which number would be sent to the IRS if I efiled.
Would be nice if they published comprehensive data on various parts of the process. Anecdotes are pretty useless for decision making.

When I ran a shared service operation for a company in Europe, we kept detailed metrics on AR and AP processes. When the UK tried to slow walk us on eliminating checks, we showed them the error data -- including cash application on our end for AR. It wasn't even close; they folded like a cheap suit.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by jebmke »

RetiredAL wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:15 am that did not OCR correctly.
I don't think they do OCR
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by prd1982 »

RetiredAL wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:15 am
nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am
There's no perfect safety. I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)
I doubt that have actual 026 machines, but I bet they have a terminal equivalent of 026 function to handle submissions that did not OCR correctly.
Let’s keep the jokes accurate. It has to at least be an 029, since they use 360 based machines. The 029 was the first to do EBCDIC.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by dcnut »

rpl3000 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:42 am
nisiprius wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:18 am I feel I learned a lesson on paper filing in 2020. Never again.

March of 2020 I mailed paper state and federal returns. I got my state refund perhaps five or six weeks later, almost normal. My federal return... entered the Covid-19 limbo and for about five months I not only did not get the refund, but the "Where's My Refund" tool kept giving the alarming message that there was no information available (i.e. no confirmation that they had received the return). With a warning please not to send a duplicate.

It's e-filing for me, in 2021 and from now on. And, yeah, I'm paying the fume fume grumble steam bad language ripoff $19.95 to e-file with the state, too.

As for stuff possibly happening electronically: I print the return both on paper and as a PDF file. I feel confident that if there is a glitch of the kind mentioned--program prints one thing but transmits another--it may be a nightmare but that it will be possible to unscramble it having the saved printed copy, and that the defect will probably affect many people and be known to the IRS. Isn't it likely that most of these could be solved with an amended return?

There's no perfect safety. I mean even if you mail the form, flat, priority mail with an illegibly-signed return receipt, just because is-that-an-A? signed a receipt doesn't mean Baker put it in the scanner or that it didn't jam in the scanner. (There is a scanner, right? Please tell me it isn't done by someone keying it in on an 026 keypunch?)

(One of my personal dithers with paper filing is "to staple or not to staple?" When I stare at a loose stack of separate pages with a disorganized wad of mixed W2's attached to the top sheet--some portrait and some landscape, some stiff and some flimsy--I keep wondering exactly what happens to that wad of paper when they open the envelope. Do they have some kind of miraculous unstapling machine? Can their high-speed scanner tolerate stray paperclips falling into the works? Should the "portrait"-format W2's be attached so that the printing on them is right-side up, or turned sideways so they don't slop over the middle third of the page? Why doesn't Form 1040 show where to attach the W2s any more? Do they even scan those W2s with varying textures and layouts? Why does the IRS even want my copies, do they think my employer is going to send me one that is different from the one they sent to the IRS? Or is this pure "we've always done it that way?")
I am in same boat for my 2020 return. Sent certified and I have confirmation they got it. Still no return and I'm not sure what my path forward is now.
Ditto. Still waiting for refund. I sent paper return to Kansas City via FedEx in late May (got extension to file)
Never again. I will use TurboTax for 2021 federal return. State return will still be paper. Got state (IL) refund in less than 2 months.
lws
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by lws »

Not paranoid at all. Paper filing is a pain to me these days.
When things get back to normal I may paper file again.
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by cshell2 »

I have no concern. I print a paper copy to review first and go over it line by line before actually e-filing.
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investing engineer
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by investing engineer »

jebmke wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:40 am If you are concerned that theefile. data doesn’t match your return, pull a transcript.
Can I verify the whole tax return that IRS received with a transcript?
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Re: When you are doing tax with a tax software, are you paranoid with the veil before efiling?

Post by Northern Flicker »

investing engineer wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 am
dodecahedron wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:40 am
palaheel wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:20 am I print the forms and file paper.

Now that I am filing alone, I efile. Yes, there can be very occasional issues with efiling (there was a famous one involving education credits about ten years ago, I believe) but paper filing generates far more issues.
Thanks, that's a fair point. I guess paper filing gives a peace of mind because we are blind to what's happening.
Mailing printed PDFs guarantees that what the IRS received is the paper you reviewed and retained. The software still could have a bug in the PDF generation, leading to an incorrect return being filed. Catching an error by reviewing a complex return that you did not prepare by hand can be quite difficult.

But a bug in the software will affect many taxpayers. If it happened, you likely would hear about it, and then have the task of deciding if you need to file an amended return.
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