Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

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AnnetteLouisan
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Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Considering charting a different course, based on what I’ve learned here, and would be interested in your opinion from a financial and life perspective.

Given all the change going on in the world today, leaving politics out of it, with covid, work from home, market at ATH, baby boomers retiring, and the current popularity of retiring early, I, ever the contrarian, am considering two options as far as my $290k/yr job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:

Option 1.

Stay the pre-covid course and aim to retire sometime within the next five years between age 57-60 with $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special.

This seems boring! Although it is fairly safe and adequate.

Option 2.

Given relatively modest finances and late in life BH exposure, plan to strategically weather the societal and economic tumult and aim to work to at least 65, utilizing WFH arrangements in order to maximize the length of time of my $290k compensation package, on the theory that these big changes will bring potential career opportunity, it’s risky to retire into a long-in-the-tooth bull market and it‘s a bit wasteful to give up a good income just to relax and do nothing, as would be likely what I would do, having done a lot of fun stuff already. Past bull markets and recessions pared competitors from the labor market in my field, creating higher salaries and mobility for those who remained.

This assumes health keeps up and I don’t lose my job, but it makes better financial sense. Might not be realistic to imagine future opportunities will exist, but change is both danger and opportunity as they say. This approach seems less boring and defeatist, and will preserve my credit. I don’t have to commit to it, but I always like to have a strategic plan for the medium term in the back of my mind to help me weather the day to day BS.

Thoughts?
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Figaro
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Figaro »

I'd say weather the storms...and ideally try to get a package from.the company to force you into retirement. I know for myself that's what it'll take if I still liked what I was doing. It's more satisfying that way - that you've fully optimized.

But as always if you retire, have some thing considerable to retire to - after working for so long, if could take a bit to just decompress and figure out what to do if not prepared before hand
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Watty »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm..... $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ ......

.......


Thoughts?
Your pension and Social Security will easily cover your expenses once they start so you just need to bridge the gap until you are getting both of them. If your pension is not adjusted for inflation then you may also need to use your savings to make up for that.

There could be an option three.

When you are at the point where you would otherwise retire then cut back on your work to mostly just do the things you like and maybe not work part time or take a couple of weeks off at a time several several times a year. If your current company does no agree to that then you may be find someplace else that does. If you can't find some place to work on your terms, then you retire.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Normchad »

I’d just keep chugging if I was you. After all, you enjoy your job. So make hay while the sun is shining.

You can always revisit this later. If you get in 5 good years, and are miserable, leave. If you still like it, keep going.

From your post, it does not sound like finances will be an issue for you either way.

Another possibility, is to start doing things now, to make you happier or enjoy your life even more. You can loosen up the purse strings now, if there are things you’ve been putting off due to finances.

You’re in good shape. Congratulations. Make the decisions and choices that are best for you. Make your life into the life you want it to be.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by pasadena »

Option 1 and reassess when you get there. If you don't feel like retiring, then change course at that time, with updated parameters.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

I knew you all would understand and have good insights. Thank you! 👍🏻🥂🎉
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by smitcat »

"Thoughts?"
"Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special."
If this is the picture of your future retired self then retirement is not a good chocie.

"it‘s a bit wasteful to give up a good income just to relax and do nothing, as would be likely what I would do, having done a lot of fun stuff already."
Time and age typically finds a person doing different things and enjoying them in different ways - I truly hope there is no possibility of 'using up' the fun stuff.

Big picture - the only purpose of money (funds) is as an intermediary for trading for services, assetts, esperiences ,etc.
Funds have no value themselves.
It appears you have plenty of funds to continue your current plans/course as is with some left over - and huge amounts left over when considering inheritances.
Challenge - What is the purpose (goal) of your funds? What will happen with these excess funds? Does the plan include children, family, a passionate cause?
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Olemiss540 »

If you were without a job right now and the company offered you your current position without any pay would you take it as a non-profit?

It seems money is no longer any role in the question given your expected financial footing in 5 years would allow you to triple your expenses without concern.

So frame the question differently removing the financial aspect and see what your mind considers optimal.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Auream »

Why would you keep working if you don’t need the money?
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by fortunefavored »

Agreed with "you don't need the money."

If you'd do it for free, keep working.

If not, downshift hard and try to figure out what you are doing with what is left of your life. If the best answer is 'keep going to a job' - then I guess keep doing that.

Every year from here on out is the last, best year of your health. Think long and hard if going to a job you don't need is the best use of that (maybe it is!)
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by pizzy »

pasadena wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:46 pm Option 1 and reassess when you get there. If you don't feel like retiring, then change course at that time, with updated parameters.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by burritoLover »

I had to double check the date on the original post - "societal and economic tumult" and "turbulence" due to covid doesn't fit with the current state of things. Make sure you are not coming up with a false narrative to convince yourself of making a change.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by SalishSea »

Financially, it seems like you'll be in decent shape either way. I agree with the above idea that you could try to find a middle ground and adjust your job responsibilities to focus more on the things you most enjoy. You can, of course, approach this knowing that you can afford to decrease your salary.

Importantly, it may be helpful to think about elements of work that you may like (or not like). For example, do you like your colleagues? Do you feel connected with them? Is your work intellectually stimulating? Do you benefit from the structure that work provides, or does it bother? Do you feel a sense of purpose and that you're helping people?

If work is a net positive, and you get paid for it, then that's great, right ?!
If work is a net negative, and you'd be happier, more fulfilled, and more content in retirement, then maybe it is time to start planning for that transition.

It's probably somewhere in the middle for most people. For what it's worth, making a good salary at a job that you "like very much" is a good place to be, in my book! Are there ways to keep what you like so much, and pare down the elements that are most stressful?

Needless to day, it's not an "engineering problem", or a strictly financial one, for that matter.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by BolderBoy »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm... job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:
To drill down into this a bit more...

Do you like all the preparations you need to do to go to this job which you like "very much"? Setting alarm clock, morning ablutions with a deadline, navigating to/from the workplace, etc?

Those items need to be considered as well. In my case setting an alarm clock was the worst and I don't miss that at all.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

Auream wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:26 am Why would you keep working if you don’t need the money?
OP said they like their job a lot. People’s attitudes toward their work can vary greatly. I really like my job too and would not retire even if I didn’t need the money. I don’t like the commute and some aspects of my work but, overall, I really enjoy it. If I won the lottery, I’d show up to work the next day.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by tashnewbie »

I’d lean toward #1, but figure out something you want to retire to. Don’t just be “boring” as you said. Expand your outlook about the possibilities after you stop working for money. Find something you want to do more than go to this job.

You said you like your job very much but it’s stressful at times. I think every job has its stressors and most people aren’t paid nearly as well as you, and most probably wouldn’t say they like the job very much. So I’d consider you among the relatively fortunate minority who are in that “sweet spot” of enjoying their job a lot, it not being too stressful, and being really well paid for it.

In 5 years (or less!), if you find you don’t want to do the job anymore, move on to your next adventure. If you still love the job and don’t have anything more pressing you want to do, rock on with the job. But really get introspective now and imagine what life could be like without the job, what things make you smile. And add those things to your life now.

Good luck!! You’re financially secure regardless of what you choose to do.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:19 am
Auream wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:26 am Why would you keep working if you don’t need the money?
OP said they like their job a lot. People’s attitudes toward their work can vary greatly. I really like my job too and would not retire even if I didn’t need the money. I don’t like the commute and some aspects of my work but, overall, I really enjoy it. If I won the lottery, I’d show up to work the next day.
I wouldn’t work for free, as another commenter suggested, but if I won the lottery (sometimes I feel like I already have), I‘m fairly certain I‘d still want to keep my job, most days anyway, not just for the money. WFH continues and, despite the tragic reason for it, I consider WFH a major plus that could lengthen my work life by removing the commuting annoyances another commenter mentioned. My job is considering offering extended WFH options.

I don’t think of myself as not needing the money, but I do view myself as being, for now, comfortable- that mealy-mouthed term.

Part of my thinking about working longer is that compared to many on here, my finances aren’t as solid as I thought. With a 76k/yr annual tax bill, heading upwards, on top of my under 50k spend and being at an age of increased workplace vulnerability and lower marketability, I do prefer continuing to have a robust income coming in. Also to protect against life’s many expected and unexpected challenges.

The fun side definitely has suffered in the past ten years. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the responses toward doing something about that.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by z3r0c00l »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm $290k/yr job

age 57-60 with $2.5 million

Given relatively modest finances
I think a realistic view of how most Americans live (let alone most people in the world) would serve you well here. You are not in a modest position, you are somewhere between upper-middle class and lower-upper class. You earn more in a year than many Americans do in a decade. Not quite wealthy, but certainly in very good shape financially. If I were in your shoes then, I would absolutely take advantage of my financial good fortune (and years of hard work) and retire young enough to make sure I live to enjoy it. I am not sure politics or pandemic have much to do with that, however. It is just a personal thing. I like travel, good food, and my hobbies more than work and would gladly do them full time if I could afford it.
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm
it’s risky to retire into a long-in-the-tooth bull market
This bull market is little over a year old, it just started teething by that measure. Maybe you mean the ca. 10-year long secular bull from the early 2010's? If so, it still isn't that old as those secular bulls routinely run to 18 years.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

z3r0c00l wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:57 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm $290k/yr job

age 57-60 with $2.5 million

Given relatively modest finances
I think a realistic view of how most Americans live (let alone most people in the world) would serve you well here. You are not in a modest position, you are somewhere between upper-middle class and lower-upper class. Not quite wealthy, but certainly in very good shape financially. If I were in your shoes then, I would absolutely take advantage of my financial good fortune (and years of hard work) and retire young enough to make sure I live to enjoy it. I am not sure politics or pandemic have much to do with that, however. It is just a personal thing. I like travel, good food, and my hobbies more than work and would gladly do them full time if I could afford it.
Lower-upper class?? 🤣😂
I like that term! Never heard it before. I love this board! 🎈🎉👍🏻

My aspiration is 2.5 at retirement, up from $2.2.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by z3r0c00l »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:01 am
z3r0c00l wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:57 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm $290k/yr job

age 57-60 with $2.5 million

Given relatively modest finances
I think a realistic view of how most Americans live (let alone most people in the world) would serve you well here. You are not in a modest position, you are somewhere between upper-middle class and lower-upper class. Not quite wealthy, but certainly in very good shape financially. If I were in your shoes then, I would absolutely take advantage of my financial good fortune (and years of hard work) and retire young enough to make sure I live to enjoy it. I am not sure politics or pandemic have much to do with that, however. It is just a personal thing. I like travel, good food, and my hobbies more than work and would gladly do them full time if I could afford it.
Lower-upper class?? 🤣😂
I like that term! Never heard it before. I love this board! 🎈🎉👍🏻
For sure, there is lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class. In fact I even invented a gradation to best describe what my family was when I was a kid: lower-upper-middle class. We were just a tick below the upper upper middle class who had an extra floor in their home, maybe a vacation spot in a slightly more expensive area, drove a Volvo rather than a Toyota.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

z3r0c00l wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:04 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:01 am
z3r0c00l wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:57 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm $290k/yr job

age 57-60 with $2.5 million

Given relatively modest finances
I think a realistic view of how most Americans live (let alone most people in the world) would serve you well here. You are not in a modest position, you are somewhere between upper-middle class and lower-upper class. Not quite wealthy, but certainly in very good shape financially. If I were in your shoes then, I would absolutely take advantage of my financial good fortune (and years of hard work) and retire young enough to make sure I live to enjoy it. I am not sure politics or pandemic have much to do with that, however. It is just a personal thing. I like travel, good food, and my hobbies more than work and would gladly do them full time if I could afford it.
Lower-upper class?? 🤣😂
I like that term! Never heard it before. I love this board! 🎈🎉👍🏻
For sure, there is lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class. In fact I even invented a gradation to best describe what my family was when I was a kid: lower-upper-middle class. We were just a tick below the upper upper middle class who had an extra floor in their home, maybe a vacation spot in a slightly more expensive area, drove a Volvo rather than a Toyota.
I‘d love to see the gradation you invented. I read Paul Fussell, Charles Murray‘s (not advocating him one way or the other since he is quite controversial and we are rightly leaving politics out here) bubble quiz, and some economic sociology but I‘ve always been mystified by these categories. More so since arriving here in BHtopia. Murray has a category he calls „Social Isolates“ that speaks to me somewhat.

In the US, we have such a range of circumstances that it’s harder to affix these labels and understandably offensive to many if one does.

In these parts, Bogleonia, I‘m pretty much Pippi Longstocking, that independent eccentic poor orphan of the children’s books, with eclectic tastes. It‘s all good!

One of my favorite quotes is:

„He wasn‘t a rich man. He was a poor man who had money. And that’s not the same thing.“ Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby.

Discuss.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:52 am
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:19 am
Auream wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:26 am Why would you keep working if you don’t need the money?
OP said they like their job a lot. People’s attitudes toward their work can vary greatly. I really like my job too and would not retire even if I didn’t need the money. I don’t like the commute and some aspects of my work but, overall, I really enjoy it. If I won the lottery, I’d show up to work the next day.
I wouldn’t work for free, as another commenter suggested, but if I won the lottery (sometimes I feel like I already have), I‘m fairly certain I‘d still want to keep my job, most days anyway, not just for the money.
If you were to go with Option 1, you’d end up with far more than you need. You may very well be able to retire right now. So it would seem you work because you want to. That’s a good place to be in.

It really doesn’t seem like finances have much to do with your situation, other than perhaps your impression that more money will provide you greater comfort and security if you keep working - which I suppose is true but it’s not like it’s at all necessary considering you will have triple what you need with Option 1.

So I think you should do what you enjoy. That can be working or not working or something in between like working part time.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by HenryG »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm ...Option 2...give up a good income just to relax and do nothing...
I would choose any other option over this one. Yes I know, I cherry-picked the quote, but this reads like you haven't really thought through potential retirement lifestyle options. I suggest you think deeply about what your life could look like post-full-time work, and how additional savings would influence that. If your job has gotten more bearable with work from home, etc., it may be easier to stay, but that's an easy excuse to maintain status quo. It looks like you're in great financial shape, so I'm trying to challenge your thinking a bit as too many people don't do things out of inertia IMO.

My practical suggestion is to take things a year at a time: you don't have to fully commit your future self to a retirement date.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by JS-Elcano »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm Considering charting a different course, based on what I’ve learned here, and would be interested in your opinion from a financial and life perspective.

Given all the change going on in the world today, leaving politics out of it, with covid, work from home, market at ATH, baby boomers retiring, and the current popularity of retiring early, I, ever the contrarian, am considering two options as far as my $290k/yr job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:

Option 1.

Stay the pre-covid course and aim to retire sometime within the next five years between age 57-60 with $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special.

This seems boring! Although it is fairly safe and adequate.

Option 2.

Given relatively modest finances and late in life BH exposure, plan to strategically weather the societal and economic tumult and aim to work to at least 65, utilizing WFH arrangements in order to maximize the length of time of my $290k compensation package, on the theory that these big changes will bring potential career opportunity, it’s risky to retire into a long-in-the-tooth bull market and it‘s a bit wasteful to give up a good income just to relax and do nothing, as would be likely what I would do, having done a lot of fun stuff already. Past bull markets and recessions pared competitors from the labor market in my field, creating higher salaries and mobility for those who remained.

This assumes health keeps up and I don’t lose my job, but it makes better financial sense. Might not be realistic to imagine future opportunities will exist, but change is both danger and opportunity as they say. This approach seems less boring and defeatist, and will preserve my credit. I don’t have to commit to it, but I always like to have a strategic plan for the medium term in the back of my mind to help me weather the day to day BS.

Thoughts?
This is how differently we all see life. For me, being able to retire at 59 with enough (you have quite a bit more than enough actually) would be a WIN in my book not a defeat.

Also, you say you would likely do nothing in retirement because you have done a lot of fun stuff already. Hard for me to imagine that someone who manages to fit in the fun stuff while working a serious, sometimes stressful job full-time retires to suddenly do nothing. Are you sure there's no other fun stuff?

If there's really nothing you would do in retirement then why retire, ever? Or at least not until your health is so poor that you must stop? You could accumulate soooo much more money than you'll ever be able to spend. So your strategy #2 could allow you to leave millions to donate to good causes or leave to family. There are certainly people who choose this path.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by nedsaid »

If you decide to keep working, take your vacations!!! If there are things you wanted to do and places you want to go the time is now. I suppose you are getting a good amount of vacation time every year and probably have accrued time in the bank. Don't wait until you retire to do fun things and to go to fun places.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by flyingaway »

If your earliest retirement option is five years away, don't even think about it and keep working. Things will change, sometimes rapidly.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

When you asked the WRONG question, you would NEVER get the RIGHT answer!

In my opinion, you have a problem. It is not financial. You have little to no life outside of working. Hence, you work by default. You do not know how to fill those extra hours. The ANSWER is not financial. You need to start planning your life when you are not working. It needs to start now.

As to when to stop working, you would know when the time comes. When the additional money does not bring you as much joy as not working and do something else.

KlangFool

P.S.: I am facing the same problem. I am working on what to do when I stop working.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

Two stories. It may or may not be relevant to you. But, just to let you know, the circumstances may force your hand.

A) My sister-in-law workplace laid off 2 person last year. And, everyone was given a 20% pay cut. She is an accountant. Now, even before annual audit, she is working until 9 pm every day. It is just a matter of time before she quits.

B) Over the past 3 months since I joined my group, one person had transferred out and the other one is going to retire in two weeks. This sub-group has only 4 persons. So, we are down to 50% capacity. I told my manager that I cannot take on more works and I just join the group for 3 months. There is no way in hell that I can do more. My manager agreed and let me only do my current job and not doing more. If he disagreed, I would be quitting soon.

This may or may not be relevant to you. But, in this strange time, many folks may be quitting and/or retiring. So, the work place may no longer be bearable to you down the road. And, there may be a result someone's else action.

KlangFool
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Kenkat »

It seems, if I am reading correctly, that both of your options involve working at least five more years. So just do that. Promise to revisit the decision in five years so long as you continue to enjoy work well enough and no other major life disruptions come your way. I get the desire to want to plan this out so that you know what is in store for you. I do the same thing at times. But it’s just not possible. You’ve got yourself on a great trajectory financially but now you’ve got to let that play itself out. Patience, as they say. It’s hard.
Last edited by Kenkat on Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by marcopolo »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm Considering charting a different course, based on what I’ve learned here, and would be interested in your opinion from a financial and life perspective.

Given all the change going on in the world today, leaving politics out of it, with covid, work from home, market at ATH, baby boomers retiring, and the current popularity of retiring early, I, ever the contrarian, am considering two options as far as my $290k/yr job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:

Option 1.

Stay the pre-covid course and aim to retire sometime within the next five years between age 57-60 with $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special.

This seems boring! Although it is fairly safe and adequate.

Option 2.

Given relatively modest finances and late in life BH exposure, plan to strategically weather the societal and economic tumult and aim to work to at least 65, utilizing WFH arrangements in order to maximize the length of time of my $290k compensation package, on the theory that these big changes will bring potential career opportunity, it’s risky to retire into a long-in-the-tooth bull market and it‘s a bit wasteful to give up a good income just to relax and do nothing, as would be likely what I would do, having done a lot of fun stuff already. Past bull markets and recessions pared competitors from the labor market in my field, creating higher salaries and mobility for those who remained.

This assumes health keeps up and I don’t lose my job, but it makes better financial sense. Might not be realistic to imagine future opportunities will exist, but change is both danger and opportunity as they say. This approach seems less boring and defeatist, and will preserve my credit. I don’t have to commit to it, but I always like to have a strategic plan for the medium term in the back of my mind to help me weather the day to day BS.

Thoughts?
If that is your view of retiring, sure, you might as well keep working. Not sure why you would even stop at 65 In that case.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

SalishSea wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:01 am Financially, it seems like you'll be in decent shape either way. I agree with the above idea that you could try to find a middle ground and adjust your job responsibilities to focus more on the things you most enjoy. You can, of course, approach this knowing that you can afford to decrease your salary.

Importantly, it may be helpful to think about elements of work that you may like (or not like). For example, do you like your colleagues? Do you feel connected with them? Is your work intellectually stimulating? Do you benefit from the structure that work provides, or does it bother? Do you feel a sense of purpose and that you're helping people?

If work is a net positive, and you get paid for it, then that's great, right ?!
If work is a net negative, and you'd be happier, more fulfilled, and more content in retirement, then maybe it is time to start planning for that transition.

It's probably somewhere in the middle for most people. For what it's worth, making a good salary at a job that you "like very much" is a good place to be, in my book! Are there ways to keep what you like so much, and pare down the elements that are most stressful?

Needless to day, it's not an "engineering problem", or a strictly financial one, for that matter.
work is definitely a net positive for the time being. yes, its a good place to be. I should in fact take more time off.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Dave55 »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:41 pm OP,

When you asked the WRONG question, you would NEVER get the RIGHT answer!

In my opinion, you have a problem. It is not financial. You have little to no life outside of working. Hence, you work by default. You do not know how to fill those extra hours. The ANSWER is not financial. You need to start planning your life when you are not working. It needs to start now.

As to when to stop working, you would know when the time comes. When the additional money does not bring you as much joy as not working and do something else.

KlangFool

P.S.: I am facing the same problem. I am working on what to do when I stop working.
Klang read this very short book and I would venture to guess there will be many a-ha's for you and anyone else with : " I am working on what to do when I stop working". Of if you are having the "What's next now that I retired?" question.

The Book: "What Happens When You Get What You Want?: Success and the Challenge of Choice" by Rick Eigenbrod available at Amazon. 94 pages.

Dave
"Reality always wins, your only job is to get in touch with it." Wilfred Bion
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by KlangFool »

Dave55 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:03 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:41 pm OP,

When you asked the WRONG question, you would NEVER get the RIGHT answer!

In my opinion, you have a problem. It is not financial. You have little to no life outside of working. Hence, you work by default. You do not know how to fill those extra hours. The ANSWER is not financial. You need to start planning your life when you are not working. It needs to start now.

As to when to stop working, you would know when the time comes. When the additional money does not bring you as much joy as not working and do something else.

KlangFool

P.S.: I am facing the same problem. I am working on what to do when I stop working.
Klang read this very short book and I would venture to guess there will be many a-ha's for you and anyone else with : " I am working on what to do when I stop working". Of if you are having the "What's next now that I retired?" question.

The Book: "What Happens When You Get What You Want?: Success and the Challenge of Choice" by Rick Eigenbrod available at Amazon. 94 pages.

Dave
Thanks.

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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Dave55 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm Considering charting a different course, based on what I’ve learned here, and would be interested in your opinion from a financial and life perspective.

Given all the change going on in the world today, leaving politics out of it, with covid, work from home, market at ATH, baby boomers retiring, and the current popularity of retiring early, I, ever the contrarian, am considering two options as far as my $290k/yr job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:

Option 1.

Stay the pre-covid course and aim to retire sometime within the next five years between age 57-60 with $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special.

This seems boring! Although it is fairly safe and adequate.

Option 2.

Given relatively modest finances and late in life BH exposure, plan to strategically weather the societal and economic tumult and aim to work to at least 65, utilizing WFH arrangements in order to maximize the length of time of my $290k compensation package, on the theory that these big changes will bring potential career opportunity, it’s risky to retire into a long-in-the-tooth bull market and it‘s a bit wasteful to give up a good income just to relax and do nothing, as would be likely what I would do, having done a lot of fun stuff already. Past bull markets and recessions pared competitors from the labor market in my field, creating higher salaries and mobility for those who remained.

This assumes health keeps up and I don’t lose my job, but it makes better financial sense. Might not be realistic to imagine future opportunities will exist, but change is both danger and opportunity as they say. This approach seems less boring and defeatist, and will preserve my credit. I don’t have to commit to it, but I always like to have a strategic plan for the medium term in the back of my mind to help me weather the day to day BS.

Thoughts?
Annette, walk right up to option one, if that makes sense at the time, great. If not option 2 is an excellent fallback. Since you feel like you won the lottery, you are in a win win. Now share some of those lotto winnings with Tony (abuss368). :moneybag :wink:

Dave
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Seems like Tony can hold his own without any help! Oops, there he goes again in his spacecraft! 🚀🤣
Random financial periodicals trailing along out the back!
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by nigel_ht »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:21 pm I should in fact take more time off.
That's the best plan. And figure out an exit strategy that allows you to work half time for $145K...preferably 6 months of the year rather than 20 hours a week although given WFH is an option it may not matter.

I guess it depends on whether you want to travel. I'd love to travel for a few years. I don't think I can manage working remotely with an 8 hour time difference though...
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

flyingaway wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:21 pm If your earliest retirement option is five years away, don't even think about it and keep working. Things will change, sometimes rapidly.
My job offers an early retirement option at 57, and I‘m almost 55 now. But that seems to be cutting things a little close given my conservative AA, so it’s likely to be around 59 or 60 to be safe, aiming for 2.5 but no guarantee I‘ll get there by then, or ever.

I hear you on things changing rapidly.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by Sandtrap »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:58 pm
flyingaway wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:21 pm If your earliest retirement option is five years away, don't even think about it and keep working. Things will change, sometimes rapidly.
My job offers an early retirement option at 57, and I‘m almost 55 now. But that seems to be cutting things a little close given my conservative AA, so it’s likely to be around 59 or 60 to be safe, aiming for 2.5 but no guarantee I‘ll get there by then, or ever.

I hear you on things changing rapidly.
+1
That 2.5 x annual expenses in retirement might need to be offset by outside income streams as well. IE SS, pension income, etc.
Healthcare insurance pre Medicare
Pension income stream
Social Security
And any other income streams outside of the portfolio.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Thank you Sandtrap. I was unclear- It‘s a retirement target number of $2.5 million, not 2.5 annual expenses, but I‘m only at $1.8 million now, or $1.2 if you don’t count my residence. So market turbulence, health issues, job loss or a lawsuit could easily set me back a lot. And you are quite right, small cola’d pension, cola’d ss and possibly small rental income too or income from sale of real property will supplement. But life has ways of ruining the best laid plans.

So right now I‘m just hoping for decent health for me and my family, friends and all Bogleheads. Health seems to be the wildcard and the elephant in the room, but is understandably off topic.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by smitcat »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:36 am Thank you Sandtrap. I was unclear- It‘s a retirement target number of $2.5 million, not 2.5 annual expenses, but I‘m only at $1.8 million now, or $1.2 if you don’t count my residence. So market turbulence, health issues, job loss or a lawsuit could easily set me back a lot. And you are quite right, small cola’d pension, cola’d ss and possibly small rental income too or income from sale of real property will supplement. But life has ways of ruining the best laid plans.

So right now I‘m just hoping for decent health for me and my family, friends and all Bogleheads. Health seems to be the wildcard and the elephant in the room, but is understandably off topic.
Even with a very conservative portfolio you do not need 2.5 million - you do not even need the 1.8 million with the stated expenses.
Your pension and future SS covers much or all of your expenses in a most conservative way and the portfolio is icing on the cake.
Then there is the inhertance on top of that.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by HomerJ »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:25 pm Considering charting a different course, based on what I’ve learned here, and would be interested in your opinion from a financial and life perspective.

Given all the change going on in the world today, leaving politics out of it, with covid, work from home, market at ATH, baby boomers retiring, and the current popularity of retiring early, I, ever the contrarian, am considering two options as far as my $290k/yr job that I do like very much, although it is stressful at times:

Option 1.

Stay the pre-covid course and aim to retire sometime within the next five years between age 57-60 with $2.5 million conservatively invested, plus no dependents, social security of 39k, a 35k pension, a home I own outright and expenses under $50k/yr. I.e, with „enough.“ Quitting while ahead in other words without fanfare, to do nothing special.

This seems boring! Although it is fairly safe and adequate.
Your Social Security and your pensions alone equal $74k. Even paying for the gap years to get you to Social Security, you'll probably still have $2 million left (even if there is 0% growth).

You can pull 3%-4% from that forever or $60k-$80k

So $100k - $150k lifestyle is easily within your reach. Not a $50k lifestyle. $50k lifestyle was never in the cards anyway...

Adding your Social Security and Pension numbers together is not hard math. $74k is your floor even if you had zero investments. So, if $50k covers your basic expenses, then you should have $24k for fun even without investments, and more like $50k - 100k for fun with your investments.

That sounds pretty awesome and not just "adequate" to me.

But if you enjoy working, keeping working until 65 (or 75 - why quit at 65 if you love your career so much?)

You need to something to retire TO... If you can't imagine what you'll do as a retired person, then keep working. But I suggest you come up with some passions and hobbies outside of work, because someday you'll be forced to retire.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

smitcat wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:39 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:36 am Thank you Sandtrap. I was unclear- It‘s a retirement target number of $2.5 million, not 2.5 annual expenses, but I‘m only at $1.8 million now, or $1.2 if you don’t count my residence. So market turbulence, health issues, job loss or a lawsuit could easily set me back a lot. And you are quite right, small cola’d pension, cola’d ss and possibly small rental income too or income from sale of real property will supplement. But life has ways of ruining the best laid plans.

So right now I‘m just hoping for decent health for me and my family, friends and all Bogleheads. Health seems to be the wildcard and the elephant in the room, but is understandably off topic.
Even with a very conservative portfolio you do not need 2.5 million - you do not even need the 1.8 million with the stated expenses.
Your pension and future SS covers much or all of your expenses in a most conservative way and the portfolio is icing on the cake.
Then there is the inhertance on top of that.
I certainly hope you‘re right, and you may very well be right, but most of my life has involved seeing and experiencing unpleasant surprises so I can’t rely on any of it, really. I‘ve seen more people despondent that their assumptions proved untrue than I have seen people trimphantly say, „yep! all went like clockwork just as I planned!“ But smitcat, you‘ve rightly pointed put in the past that you have a better circle of friends than I do.

Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations is an expression for good reason.

It‘s very common for medical expenses, fraud, late in life sweethearts, other claimants and taxes to consume parents wealth, so I don’t rely on inheritance.

Ss- I don’t think its outside the realm of possibility for means testing or other changes to be implemented in my lifetime.

Pension - I grew up in the pre-ERISA era watching people lose their pensions due to underfunding. Could happen again, or my pension could be taken away if I were to lose my job.

And my health is also a factor. One serious illness and the whole landscape changes. Lady Mary‘s famous eye-rolling quote is „don’t be so defeatist. It‘s so middle class!“ Maybe but that‘s my origins, maybe not even that.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by HomerJ »

pasadena wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:46 pm Option 1 and reassess when you get there. If you don't feel like retiring, then change course at that time, with updated parameters.
Yeah, there's no real choice to be made at this time...

Both options have you working a few more years anyway, so re-assess after that... I'm sure we'll have completely different "turbulence" going on then.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

I am open to hearing about fabulous retirement lifestyles. I do have a vague notion of what I‘d do if all stars aligned perfectly, but tbh I just don’t need much and am pretty happy just doing yoga and solving the crossword each week. I‘ve got some relatives so what I don’t use will go to them, the state, my schools and/ or charity.

I am very grateful for what I have and for all the people and institutions who made it possible. I‘m acutely aware of what it is like to struggle and suffer and I don’t want that for myself or any of you.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by nigel_ht »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:08 am I am open to hearing about fabulous retirement lifestyles. I do have a vague notion of what I‘d do if all stars aligned perfectly, but tbh I just don’t need much and am pretty happy just doing yoga and solving the crossword each week. I‘ve got some relatives so what I don’t use will go to them, the state, my schools and/ or charity.
How about doing Yoga at Ananda in the Himalayas?

During covid I followed for a short while an exercise program that was your usual aerobic stuff but the trainer was stuck in Dubai so made the best of a bad situation.

Locale makes for a difference :)
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:16 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:08 am I am open to hearing about fabulous retirement lifestyles. I do have a vague notion of what I‘d do if all stars aligned perfectly, but tbh I just don’t need much and am pretty happy just doing yoga and solving the crossword each week. I‘ve got some relatives so what I don’t use will go to them, the state, my schools and/ or charity.
How about doing Yoga at Ananda in the Himalayas?

During covid I followed for a short while an exercise program that was your usual aerobic stuff but the trainer was stuck in Dubai so made the best of a bad situation.

Locale makes for a difference :)
😂😂😆

That is a great idea. 😆

I was thinking I could get a string of poloponies.. 😂
(a Ralph Kramden reference)
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by smitcat »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:00 am
smitcat wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:39 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:36 am Thank you Sandtrap. I was unclear- It‘s a retirement target number of $2.5 million, not 2.5 annual expenses, but I‘m only at $1.8 million now, or $1.2 if you don’t count my residence. So market turbulence, health issues, job loss or a lawsuit could easily set me back a lot. And you are quite right, small cola’d pension, cola’d ss and possibly small rental income too or income from sale of real property will supplement. But life has ways of ruining the best laid plans.

So right now I‘m just hoping for decent health for me and my family, friends and all Bogleheads. Health seems to be the wildcard and the elephant in the room, but is understandably off topic.
Even with a very conservative portfolio you do not need 2.5 million - you do not even need the 1.8 million with the stated expenses.
Your pension and future SS covers much or all of your expenses in a most conservative way and the portfolio is icing on the cake.
Then there is the inhertance on top of that.
I certainly hope you‘re right, and you may very well be right, but most of my life has involved seeing and experiencing unpleasant surprises so I can’t rely on any of it, really. I‘ve seen more people despondent that their assumptions proved untrue than I have seen people trimphantly say, „yep! all went like clockwork just as I planned!“ But smitcat, you‘ve rightly pointed put in the past that you have a better circle of friends than I do.

Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations is an expression for good reason.

It‘s very common for medical expenses, fraud, late in life sweethearts, other claimants and taxes to consume parents wealth, so I don’t rely on inheritance.

Ss- I don’t think its outside the realm of possibility for means testing or other changes to be implemented in my lifetime.

Pension - I grew up in the pre-ERISA era watching people lose their pensions due to underfunding. Could happen again, or my pension could be taken away if I were to lose my job.

And my health is also a factor. One serious illness and the whole landscape changes. Lady Mary‘s famous eye-rolling quote is „don’t be so defeatist. It‘s so middle class!“ Maybe but that‘s my origins, maybe not even that.
"I certainly hope you‘re right, and you may very well be right, but most of my life has involved seeing and experiencing unpleasant surprises so I can’t rely on any of it, really. I‘ve seen more people despondent that their assumptions proved untrue than I have seen people trimphantly say, „yep! all went like clockwork just as I planned!"

Based on the best available historical records even an AA of 25% stocks 75% bonds had a 97% success rate for a 40 year draw. You can either use past data or just a 'whim' but if its just a whim then where do you stop making the scenarios really 'bleak'?

"But smitcat, you‘ve rightly pointed put in the past that you have a better circle of friends than I do."
I never said that - I might have said I have no friends like similar to the ones you may have described.

"It‘s very common for medical expenses, fraud, late in life sweethearts, other claimants and taxes to consume parents wealth, so I don’t rely on inheritance."
I hear this but find it very unlikely that any of these would apply or fully apply - even within a very bleak story.

"Pension - I grew up in the pre-ERISA era watching people lose their pensions due to underfunding. Could happen again, or my pension could be taken away if I were to lose my job."
Please descibe your pension in detail - I am sure there are folks here that can help look it up and supply the likelihood of future issues.

"And my health is also a factor. One serious illness and the whole landscape changes."
I have two thoughts here:
1. So would you plan be to work while you are healthy and then if your health deteriorates retire? (sounds like no fun)
2. How/why would poor helath require more funds/income then you will have coming?

IMHO - you are asking detialed question about investing and retirement, please see that you are already there and are much 'safer' and much farther along then 90+ % of the population. Your challenges lie elsewhere....
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by smitcat »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:08 am I am open to hearing about fabulous retirement lifestyles. I do have a vague notion of what I‘d do if all stars aligned perfectly, but tbh I just don’t need much and am pretty happy just doing yoga and solving the crossword each week. I‘ve got some relatives so what I don’t use will go to them, the state, my schools and/ or charity.

I am very grateful for what I have and for all the people and institutions who made it possible. I‘m acutely aware of what it is like to struggle and suffer and I don’t want that for myself or any of you.
"I am open to hearing about fabulous retirement lifestyles."
In one post you said you like jetskiing - we were just doing that yesterday.
Role up a few dozen things that you really like and put them on a list ....that is your fabulous retirement (no one elses will be the same)>
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Smitcat and I will no doubt meet up at that great tiki bar in the sky and have a good laugh and a drink together. 🥂🥂 Cheers to you, Smitcat! You‘re right, I need to get out the jetski and put together some plans for fun in retirement, and realize I‘m in pretty good shape overall, adjust my attitude! Thank you.
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Re: Strategic Plan in the Covid Era - Work Through Turbulence or Quit While Ahead?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:52 pm OP,

Two stories. It may or may not be relevant to you. But, just to let you know, the circumstances may force your hand.

A) My sister-in-law workplace laid off 2 person last year. And, everyone was given a 20% pay cut. She is an accountant. Now, even before annual audit, she is working until 9 pm every day. It is just a matter of time before she quits.

B) Over the past 3 months since I joined my group, one person had transferred out and the other one is going to retire in two weeks. This sub-group has only 4 persons. So, we are down to 50% capacity. I told my manager that I cannot take on more works and I just join the group for 3 months. There is no way in hell that I can do more. My manager agreed and let me only do my current job and not doing more. If he disagreed, I would be quitting soon.

This may or may not be relevant to you. But, in this strange time, many folks may be quitting and/or retiring. So, the work place may no longer be bearable to you down the road. And, there may be a result someone's else action.

KlangFool
I probably should do LinkedIn. I avoided it because of the time suck and annoyance.
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