Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

My wife's father recently married at age 85. He wants his wife to be able to live in the home until she dies and then have it becomes the kids house (my wife and her sister).

We drew up an agreement and everyone signed it, but now FIL wants something more legal.

What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.

What other legal methods are there to do this? My wife and sister are in agreement that it would be fine if his new wife stayed there.

What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
Soon2BXProgrammer
Posts: 3289
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:30 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:33 pm My wife's father recently married at age 85. He wants his wife to be able to live in the home until she dies and then have it becomes the kids house (my wife and her sister).

We drew up an agreement and everyone signed it, but now FIL wants something more legal.

What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.

What other legal methods are there to do this? My wife and sister are in agreement that it would be fine if his new wife stayed there.

What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
you need to talk with a competent estate attorney, more then likely you will need a trust. Terms get complicated because who pays for everything during the life estate? Also i've seen language that the life estate sometimes includes the ability to rent it out, to pay for care in care facility... etc.

Basically, this is why you end up needing a trust/trustee to manage the property, per the trust. etc.
Earned 43 (and counting) credit hours of financial planning related education from a regionally accredited university, but I am not your advisor.
HomeStretch
Posts: 11415
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by HomeStretch »

For best advice, your FIL should see an experienced estate and trust attorney in his state of residence.

Edit - another issue to iron out is who is responsible for paying house-related expenses (such as property taxes, insurance, maintenance, mortgage, etc.). And, if the wife, consider what happens if she runs out of funds.
Last edited by HomeStretch on Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 25625
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Your father in law needs to see a competent estate attorney.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
delamer
Posts: 17453
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by delamer »

What does his current will say?
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
fortunefavored
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by fortunefavored »

Life estates are an utter, total nightmare. Do not, under any circumstance accept a life estate. Please google and read some stories before you go down that road. I would rather give up the house entirely than accept a life estate.

What I did with one my parents' estate was have their intent declared in the will ("It is the intent of <deceased> that X parties will inhabit the home for the remainder of their life or until it is no longer possible.") - this is not legally enforceable, it relies on your parent trusting you to execute it.

This worked out fine - the remaining party stayed for approximately 9 years, and then moved to a shared housing situation that was more appropriate.

But again, relies on your parent trusting you to live up to their intent.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by JoeRetire »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:33 pm What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.
The common (and only sensible IMHO) solution is to have his lawyer draft a new will.
Why doesn't he want to do that to protect his bride? How does she feel about it?
What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Swimmer
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:24 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Swimmer »

fortunefavored wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm Life estates are an utter, total nightmare. Do not, under any circumstance accept a life estate. Please google and read some stories before you go down that road. I would rather give up the house entirely than accept a life estate.

What I did with one my parents' estate was have their intent declared in the will ("It is the intent of <deceased> that X parties will inhabit the home for the remainder of their life or until it is no longer possible.") - this is not legally enforceable, it relies on your parent trusting you to execute it.

This worked out fine - the remaining party stayed for approximately 9 years, and then moved to a shared housing situation that was more appropriate.

But again, relies on your parent trusting you to live up to their intent.

I’m really surprised to read this. I don’t know much about LEs, but they are extremely popular in Florida. I plan to do some research.
User avatar
Steelersfan
Posts: 4129
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Steelersfan »

fortunefavored wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm Life estates are an utter, total nightmare. Do not, under any circumstance accept a life estate. Please google and read some stories before you go down that road. I would rather give up the house entirely than accept a life estate.
I've had two family members involved in separate life estates. Lawyers were involved in drafting the agreements. Both worked out exactly as intended.
fortunefavored
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by fortunefavored »

Steelersfan wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:48 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:20 pm Life estates are an utter, total nightmare. Do not, under any circumstance accept a life estate. Please google and read some stories before you go down that road. I would rather give up the house entirely than accept a life estate.
I've had two family members involved in separate life estates. Lawyers were involved in drafting the agreements. Both worked out exactly as intended.
They work out unless they don't. Then you ("the remainder man") have almost zero authority to affect any change, and you have all the responsibilities being the actual owner.

Obviously if nothing goes wrong, they're just fine.. but that is true of anything.
bsteiner
Posts: 9208
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Location: NYC/NJ/FL

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by bsteiner »

Without seeing the agreement we can't tell if it's valid.

As others have pointed out, life estates are permissible but awkward. What if she wants to move to a different home? How to major expenses get paid? If the remainder interests are vested, they're in the remainderpersons' estates. If the remainder interests are not vested, there's no class of persons who can sell the property.

The better solution is for him to leave the property (and some cash) in trust under his Will.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

Well, just found out he called a buddy at the title company and they have some kind of legal form for this purpose. He said a lawyer came up with it and it will only cost him $100, so he reluctantly agreed. I have no idea what it is, but I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

My FIL is VERY hesitant to spend any money on anything legal. He says he has a valid Will, but he only gave my DW an unsigned "draft". There is nothing in the Will about his current wife. It was written years ago before his first wife died. It basically leaves everything to DW and her sister.

Right now the house is in his name and my DW and SIL as joint owners. I've never actually seen the deed. He won't let us "see" any of his finances, but I have some idea of what he has since I do his taxes every year. The house is worth maybe $200K. I told DW, it would probably be better for him just to put his wife on the deed and take DW and SIL off and be done with it. He doesn't want the wifes kids to end up inheriting the house when she's gone. He's very stubborn and is in poor health. It will probably be a nightmare, but on the bright side the new wife is very nice and we like her a lot. She doesn't understand any of this stuff and I don't think she is even asking him to do it.

Anybody venture a guess as to what legal form we might be signing tomorrow. Is there some kind of life estate deed or something?
sailaway
Posts: 8215
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by sailaway »

There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

JoeRetire wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:34 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:33 pm What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.
The common (and only sensible IMHO) solution is to have his lawyer draft a new will.
Why doesn't he want to do that to protect his bride? How does she feel about it?
What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 pm There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Maybe that's what he wants us to sign tomorrow. Right now, the only people on the deed are him, DW and SIL. DW and SIL are willing to sign whatever this document he's come up with. For some reason, the person at the Title company said I also have to come and sign something since I'm married to one of the people that will be signing.
sailaway
Posts: 8215
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by sailaway »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:34 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:33 pm What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.
The common (and only sensible IMHO) solution is to have his lawyer draft a new will.
Why doesn't he want to do that to protect his bride? How does she feel about it?
What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Even a online template would probably be better than a will written during a previous marriage.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by student »

Earlier this year, you posted the same issue for your MIL. That got resolved?
delamer
Posts: 17453
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by delamer »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:15 pm
sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 pm There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Maybe that's what he wants us to sign tomorrow. Right now, the only people on the deed are him, DW and SIL. DW and SIL are willing to sign whatever this document he's come up with. For some reason, the person at the Title company said I also have to come and sign something since I'm married to one of the people that will be signing.
Maybe your FIL won’t pay for his own lawyer, but it’s a bad idea for your wife to sign a legal document without getting her own legal advice. And especially a document provided by your FIL’s buddy.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

student wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Earlier this year, you posted the same issue for your MIL. That got resolved?
Same issue. He now wants to do something more "legal" than the written agreement DW and SIL signed agreeing to let MIL stay in the house as long as she wants.
neverpanic
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:26 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by neverpanic »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:03 pm Right now the house is in his name and my DW and SIL as joint owners. I've never actually seen the deed. He won't let us "see" any of his finances, but I have some idea of what he has since I do his taxes every year. The house is worth maybe $200K. I told DW, it would probably be better for him just to put his wife on the deed and take DW and SIL off and be done with it. He doesn't want the wifes kids to end up inheriting the house when she's gone. He's very stubborn and is in poor health. It will probably be a nightmare, but on the bright side the new wife is very nice and we like her a lot.
I'm willing to make a small wager that his wife's children have no interest in that house.

1) Does he have enough money to support his wife if he dies before her?

2) Does the wife have enough money to support herself if he dies before her?

3) Do your wife and her sister have any interest in what they may inherit when he's dead?

4) I know you love your wife and it's great that you're helping her with her dad's issues, but do you have interest in taking care of the home after he's dead?

Don't let his irrational secrecy obsession stress out your wife too much or take too much of your bandwidth.
I am not a financial professional or guru. I'm a schmuck who got lucky 10 times. Such is the life of the trader.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:43 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:15 pm
sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 pm There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Maybe that's what he wants us to sign tomorrow. Right now, the only people on the deed are him, DW and SIL. DW and SIL are willing to sign whatever this document he's come up with. For some reason, the person at the Title company said I also have to come and sign something since I'm married to one of the people that will be signing.
Maybe your FIL won’t pay for his own lawyer, but it’s a bad idea for your wife to sign a legal document without getting her own legal advice. And especially a document provided by your FIL’s buddy.
Point taken. I plan on reading what they come up with and asking questions. FIL, MIL and SIL will have no clue what they are reading. It'll be up to me and DW to look things over. As I said, he's in poor health (cancer, heart failure) and will be in no mood to entertain questions, concerns, etc. It'll either be sign it or not inherit the house (which I think would be the best option). But, that's not what he wants.

I think his buddy suggested he contact the title company that did his last deed. He's been talking to someone at the title company (and I guess the lawyer for the title company) to see if there's a way to make it more legal. They've come up with some kind of form (Deed?) that is for this purpose.
User avatar
Sandi_k
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 11:55 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Sandi_k »

I'm assuming that he'll be asking New Wife to sign a Quitclaim Deed, releasing all interest in the property.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

neverpanic wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:50 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:03 pm Right now the house is in his name and my DW and SIL as joint owners. I've never actually seen the deed. He won't let us "see" any of his finances, but I have some idea of what he has since I do his taxes every year. The house is worth maybe $200K. I told DW, it would probably be better for him just to put his wife on the deed and take DW and SIL off and be done with it. He doesn't want the wifes kids to end up inheriting the house when she's gone. He's very stubborn and is in poor health. It will probably be a nightmare, but on the bright side the new wife is very nice and we like her a lot.
I'm willing to make a small wager that his wife's children have no interest in that house. She's supposedly has at least one son that she gives money to. She has other kids too. We've never met them. FIL and new wife have only been together a short while and got married earlier this year.

1) Does he have enough money to support his wife if he dies before her? She has her own money - according to him.

2) Does the wife have enough money to support herself if he dies before her? Don't really know.

3) Do your wife and her sister have any interest in what they may inherit when he's dead? DW doesn't need the money. SIL is broke and lives on disability. She's counting on it. According to my "secret" calculations based on tax forms, I figure he has around $2 million.

4) I know you love your wife and it's great that you're helping her with her dad's issues, but do you have interest in taking care of the home after he's dead? Neither of us have any desire to take care of the home. DW is executor (supposedly) and I figure his estate will be difficult. SIL is incapable of doing any kind of finance/legal stuff, so I'll be handling her part of the estate/inheritance also probably.

Don't let his irrational secrecy obsession stress out your wife too much or take too much of your bandwidth.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

Sandi_k wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:01 pm I'm assuming that he'll be asking New Wife to sign a Quitclaim Deed, releasing all interest in the property.
I'm not sure she has any interest in the property unless there is some sort of state law that gives spouses some kind of homestead claim. Right now, the only names on the deed are FIL, DW and SIL.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:22 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:34 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:33 pm What's a common solution to this situation? I doubt he'll go for drafting a new Will with some kind of Life Estate language.
The common (and only sensible IMHO) solution is to have his lawyer draft a new will.
Why doesn't he want to do that to protect his bride? How does she feel about it?
What if she moves out before dying? What if she has to go to a nursing home? Does the house just sit there? Can my wife and sister sell the house? I can see all sorts of problems coming up. Anybody have experience with this?
Lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Even a online template would probably be better than a will written during a previous marriage.
I would be glad to do some kind of Will Maker for him, but he'd never agree to it. When my dad was around the same age (85) I took him to my lawyer and we had everything written up. I also did other things - like TOD deed on the house, checked beneficiaries, etc. Settling his estate was a breeze. DW won't be as lucky.
delamer
Posts: 17453
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by delamer »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:57 pm
delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:43 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:15 pm
sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 pm There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Maybe that's what he wants us to sign tomorrow. Right now, the only people on the deed are him, DW and SIL. DW and SIL are willing to sign whatever this document he's come up with. For some reason, the person at the Title company said I also have to come and sign something since I'm married to one of the people that will be signing.
Maybe your FIL won’t pay for his own lawyer, but it’s a bad idea for your wife to sign a legal document without getting her own legal advice. And especially a document provided by your FIL’s buddy.
Point taken. I plan on reading what they come up with and asking questions. FIL, MIL and SIL will have no clue what they are reading. It'll be up to me and DW to look things over. As I said, he's in poor health (cancer, heart failure) and will be in no mood to entertain questions, concerns, etc. It'll either be sign it or not inherit the house (which I think would be the best option). But, that's not what he wants.

I think his buddy suggested he contact the title company that did his last deed. He's been talking to someone at the title company (and I guess the lawyer for the title company) to see if there's a way to make it more legal. They've come up with some kind of form (Deed?) that is for this purpose.
If your wife is already on the deed, I don’t understand how he can stop her from inheriting the property if she refuses to sign a quitclaim deed.

At least not without suing her.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
User avatar
Sandi_k
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 11:55 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Sandi_k »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:11 pm
Sandi_k wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:01 pm I'm assuming that he'll be asking New Wife to sign a Quitclaim Deed, releasing all interest in the property.
I'm not sure she has any interest in the property unless there is some sort of state law that gives spouses some kind of homestead claim. Right now, the only names on the deed are FIL, DW and SIL.
The fact that his will is so old that it includes the previous wife creates a presumption that he just failed to update the paperwork. It creates a cloud on the title. But by having her positively assert that she has no interest in the house, AFTER their wedding date, might be sufficient legally, IMO. (IANAL, but I did have a job in title years ago).

He cannot transfer it to himself and herself alone, without the current co-owners agreeing, and Quitclaiming *their* interest in the property.
Luckywon
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Luckywon »

delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:18 pm

If your wife is already on the deed, I don’t understand how he can stop her from inheriting the property if she refuses to sign a quitclaim deed.

At least not without suing her.
The home is worth around $200k. So the OP's wife's interest maybe a third of that.
FIL estate is worth around $2 million. OP's wife could stand to inherit a large portion of that.

Given the above, I can see how the FIL would expect his daughter (OP's wife) to follow his wishes regarding any interest he gave her in his home.
neverpanic
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:26 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by neverpanic »

Luckywon wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:28 pm
delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:18 pm

If your wife is already on the deed, I don’t understand how he can stop her from inheriting the property if she refuses to sign a quitclaim deed.

At least not without suing her.
The home is worth around $200k. So the OP's wife's interest maybe a third of that.
FIL estate is worth around $2 million. OP's wife could stand to inherit a large portion of that.

Given the above, I can see how the FIL would expect his daughter (OP's wife) to follow his wishes regarding any interest he gave her in his home.
If he has that expectation, then he needs to follow the necessary steps to make the administration little more than a mere formality for his daughter. To dump a bunch of "this is what I want you to do when I'm gone, and I don't care what it costs you" is entirely unfair happens all too often, because old people feel entitled to do this.

Since this is officially relationship and legal chat now, I'll depart.
I am not a financial professional or guru. I'm a schmuck who got lucky 10 times. Such is the life of the trader.
User avatar
celia
Posts: 16774
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by celia »

If I was your wife, I’d not sign anything until FIL had new estate plans drawn up to clarify things. She can even offer to pay for it, since it will likely cost less than the legal mess that might be created after he dies. He can decide what he wants, but it needs to be addressed legally in a will/trust/deed. He probably also needs DPOA for health and finances, too.

One thing he may not have considered is if your wife dies before your MIL, what does he want to happen? Or if disabled sister dies before MIL or even both your wife and SIL die before MIL.

Everyone assumes things would work out as they assume. . .
until they don’t.
bsteiner
Posts: 9208
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Location: NYC/NJ/FL

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by bsteiner »

Swimmer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:40 pm ... I don’t know much about LEs, but they are extremely popular in Florida. I plan to do some research.
Some are for Medicaid planning. Others are the result of the Florida homestead rules.

If he's 85, in poor health, worth $2 million, and has a Will that predates his current marriage, there are other issues that may be more important than his 1/3 interest in a $200,000 house.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by JoeRetire »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
bradinsky
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:32 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by bradinsky »

If it’s as messed up as it sounds, the attorneys involved after he passes should profit handsomely. And that cash will come from the estate of the FIL who refuses to spend a nickel. I guess ignorance & stubbornness is bliss.
bsteiner
Posts: 9208
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Location: NYC/NJ/FL

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by bsteiner »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
Surviving spouses are entitled to a share of the estate in most states.

It would be helpful to know in what state he resides.

There are other issues as well, including protecting his children's inheritances.
Duzz78
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat May 15, 2021 9:10 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Duzz78 »

As it stands, the current, old will is the current legal document. That protects your DW and SIL and the house and other assets currently go to them when he dies. His intentions for his new wife may be better left to your DW and SIL to handle after he dies.

Upon signing any new document to give something to his new wife, this will create a whole new set of problems. If it is not done correctly, then there will more problems he will have created then if he not done anything. Done correctly, involves lawyers understanding what he want done with new wife while still protecting your DW and SIL as they have expected these many years.
bradinsky wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:55 am If it’s as messed up as it sounds, the attorneys involved after he passes should profit handsomely. And that cash will come from the estate of the FIL who refuses to spend a nickel. I guess ignorance & stubbornness is bliss.

Agree 100 percent
bsteiner wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Surviving spouses are entitled to a share of the estate in most states.

It would be helpful to know in what state he resides.

There are other issues as well, including protecting his children's inheritances.
Remember, new wife has a son she has been giving money to. Plus another child. He is only thinking about the house situation. He is not thinking about all his other assets that will inherited and should be inherited by your DW and SIL only. Any documents written should still protect your DW and SIL inheritance. That includes lawyers before death and after his death. The lawyers have a right to their fees, but he will be giving more of his money to the lawyers who will be sorting this all out after his death if not done correctly.

Unfortunately, his misguided quick legal action could cause unforseen consequences he has not thought about or imagined would happen may play out after he is deceased.
fortunefavored
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by fortunefavored »

I agree with everyone else, basically if this is not cleaned up, New Wife is either relying on the good will of the people who inherit the estate, or everyone is going to lawyer up to fight for their share of $2.2M.

Hopefully you/your spouse will not be the executor too. Executor + bad will + no estate plan + bizarre house title issues.. possibly years and years of hassle.

I am very sorry you're in this situation and wish you the best of luck. Just try to minimize the impact on you/yours as much as possible - even if that means (perceived) inequitable distribution when he passes.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:18 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:57 pm
delamer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:43 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:15 pm
sailaway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:07 pm There is such a thing as a life estate deed in some states. The real question is whether or not he can do so if there are already other people on the deed!
Maybe that's what he wants us to sign tomorrow. Right now, the only people on the deed are him, DW and SIL. DW and SIL are willing to sign whatever this document he's come up with. For some reason, the person at the Title company said I also have to come and sign something since I'm married to one of the people that will be signing.
Maybe your FIL won’t pay for his own lawyer, but it’s a bad idea for your wife to sign a legal document without getting her own legal advice. And especially a document provided by your FIL’s buddy.
Point taken. I plan on reading what they come up with and asking questions. FIL, MIL and SIL will have no clue what they are reading. It'll be up to me and DW to look things over. As I said, he's in poor health (cancer, heart failure) and will be in no mood to entertain questions, concerns, etc. It'll either be sign it or not inherit the house (which I think would be the best option). But, that's not what he wants.

I think his buddy suggested he contact the title company that did his last deed. He's been talking to someone at the title company (and I guess the lawyer for the title company) to see if there's a way to make it more legal. They've come up with some kind of form (Deed?) that is for this purpose.
If your wife is already on the deed, I don’t understand how he can stop her from inheriting the property if she refuses to sign a quitclaim deed.

At least not without suing her.
DW wants what's best for DF (and new wife). She is fine with new wife staying in the house as long as she wants. DF and SIL (DW sister) don't get along, so DW is constantly in the middle trying to make everybody happy. DW can't force her dad to do anything. He's always been stubborn - especially when it comes to his money.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

Sandi_k wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:23 pm
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:11 pm
Sandi_k wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:01 pm I'm assuming that he'll be asking New Wife to sign a Quitclaim Deed, releasing all interest in the property.
I'm not sure she has any interest in the property unless there is some sort of state law that gives spouses some kind of homestead claim. Right now, the only names on the deed are FIL, DW and SIL.
The fact that his will is so old that it includes the previous wife creates a presumption that he just failed to update the paperwork. It creates a cloud on the title. But by having her positively assert that she has no interest in the house, AFTER their wedding date, might be sufficient legally, IMO. (IANAL, but I did have a job in title years ago).

He cannot transfer it to himself and herself alone, without the current co-owners agreeing, and Quitclaiming *their* interest in the property.
Hopefully, the Will is still valid even though he remarried. I imagine this is common, but you're right it probably muddies up the waters.

He's not wanting to transfer the title to just himself and new wife. He wants DW and SIL to stay on the title but allow new wife to live there until she dies and then the property is 50/50 split between his daughters.
rooms222
Posts: 824
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:12 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by rooms222 »

The spousal share rules do vary a lot by state. Some states now seek to look at all assets to determine the share, even those transferred by POD or TOD.

Note also the potential for omitted spouse rules to come into play, particularly in community property states. For example, in California, if he continues to use a will that predates her, this can happen: https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles ... rap-unwary
retiringwhen
Posts: 4743
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:09 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by retiringwhen »

PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:03 pm My FIL is VERY hesitant to spend any money on anything legal. He says he has a valid Will, but he only gave my DW an unsigned "draft". There is nothing in the Will about his current wife. It was written years ago before his first wife died. It basically leaves everything to DW and her sister.
This is a major red flag, he needs good legal counsel to ensure his actual wishes are represented in the Will consider current circumstances. I am pretty confident that a will written years before with a first wife will not fully represent his wishes. Even if he believes the Will leaves everything to his children, if I were him, I would not take that chance.

Has he reviewed any beneficiary designations on investment, bank and insurance accounts?
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

celia wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:14 am If I was your wife, I’d not sign anything until FIL had new estate plans drawn up to clarify things. She can even offer to pay for it, since it will likely cost less than the legal mess that might be created after he dies. He can decide what he wants, but it needs to be addressed legally in a will/trust/deed. He probably also needs DPOA for health and finances, too.

One thing he may not have considered is if your wife dies before your MIL, what does he want to happen? Or if disabled sister dies before MIL or even both your wife and SIL die before MIL.

Everyone assumes things would work out as they assume. . .
until they don’t.
Thanks. A lot of good points.

He simply isn't going to do what's necessary. I've tried to talk to him over the years about this stuff. He "says" everything is ready to go with beneficiaries, TOD/POD, kids on the deed, etc, but he won't show us anything in advance. The last time he thought he was going to die, he told DW there was a sealed envelope with information about his accounts. She was to open it only if he died. He told her that he would be able to tell if she tried to open it "early". :confused

As far as if DW and/or SIL predecease new wife, I don't think he cares.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

bsteiner wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
Surviving spouses are entitled to a share of the estate in most states.

It would be helpful to know in what state he resides.

There are other issues as well, including protecting his children's inheritances.
State is Oklahoma

Most of his money is at Vanguard, T. Rowe Price and a bunch of local municipal bonds. He "says" he has DW and SIL as beneficiaries on all of this, but we don't know for sure. If he does have proper beneficiary designations, that doesn't include current wife, would she still be entitled to a share of these assets?
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
He is willing to spend up to $100 - which is more than I thought he'd pay LOL!

Reminds me of a time that I paid a $4.95 meal for him because he forgot his wallet. When we got back to his house, he looks in his wallet and sees a $5 bill and four $1 bills. Instead of giving me the $5 bill, he gave me the four $1s and proceeded to spend the next 30 minutes looking for 95 cents.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

retiringwhen wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:47 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:03 pm My FIL is VERY hesitant to spend any money on anything legal. He says he has a valid Will, but he only gave my DW an unsigned "draft". There is nothing in the Will about his current wife. It was written years ago before his first wife died. It basically leaves everything to DW and her sister.
This is a major red flag, he needs good legal counsel to ensure his actual wishes are represented in the Will consider current circumstances. I am pretty confident that a will written years before with a first wife will not fully represent his wishes. Even if he believes the Will leaves everything to his children, if I were him, I would not take that chance.

Has he reviewed any beneficiary designations on investment, bank and insurance accounts?
We've asked him to review beneficiaries. He doesn't have any online access. He said he tried to call VG, etc but couldn't understand what they were saying to him, so he got frustrated and hung up. This was a couple of years ago when he was in better shape physically/mentally.

DW has POA, but it's the springing type requiring two doctors to sign off. He says the lawyer that did the POA ($50!) told him this was much better than an Immediate POA since it will keep kids from possibly stealing his money. Basically worthless in the current situation.
Luckywon
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by Luckywon »

It's obvious that FIL's cheapness and distrust of lawyers is likely to have unfortunate consequences for the family after he dies. Those who say his money will be spent on lawyers anyway are correct in one sense but it seems the FIL's view is that at that point it's not his money anymore, and he doesn't care. Therefore there really is no point in bringing up the topic of lawyers.

Your wife is in a frustrating position but whatever she does at this point, if she really does not care about her interest in the home, she could likely extricate herself from any conflict that arises after father-in-law's death by signing over her interest in the property to either her sister or the stepmother. So I would try not to worry about this issue too much at this point.

I hope this thread is not locked because if you keep this thread updated with what unfolds over the years I'm sure it would be very interesting.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

Luckywon wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:16 am It's obvious that FIL's cheapness and distrust of lawyers is likely to have unfortunate consequences for the family after he dies. Those who say his money will be spent on lawyers anyway are correct in one sense but it seems the FIL's view is that at that point it's not his money anymore, and he doesn't care. Therefore there really is no point in bringing up the topic of lawyers.

Your wife is in a frustrating position but whatever she does at this point, if she really does not care about her interest in the home, she could likely extricate herself from any conflict that arises after father-in-law's death by signing over her interest in the property to either her sister or the stepmother. So I would try not to worry about this issue too much at this point.

If you keep this thread updated with what unfolds over the years I'm sure it would be very interesting.
I'll update with what happens at the meeting at the title company today.

We'd be happy to deed her interest to her sister and/or new MIL, but SIL is incapable of working through the problems that might come up and we'd end up dealing with them anyway.
student
Posts: 10761
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by student »

PatrickA5 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
He is willing to spend up to $100 - which is more than I thought he'd pay LOL!

Reminds me of a time that I paid a $4.95 meal for him because he forgot his wallet. When we got back to his house, he looks in his wallet and sees a $5 bill and four $1 bills. Instead of giving me the $5 bill, he gave me the four $1s and proceeded to spend the next 30 minutes looking for 95 cents.
lol.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by JoeRetire »

Duzz78 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:12 am As it stands, the current, old will is the current legal document. That protects your DW and SIL and the house and other assets currently go to them when he dies.
Maybe. Disinheriting a spouse is possible depending on the state, but at best is likely to leave the estate open to legal challenge.
His intentions for his new wife may be better left to your DW and SIL to handle after he dies.
If he actually cares about his intentions, this is a bad idea. What if DW and/or SIL dies first?
Unfortunately, his misguided quick legal action could cause unforseen consequences he has not thought about or imagined would happen may play out after he is deceased.
Almost certainly, this is what will happen without legal guidance. Sorry, but FIL is simply being thoughtless and perhaps lazy.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by JoeRetire »

PatrickA5 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
He is willing to spend up to $100 - which is more than I thought he'd pay LOL!

Reminds me of a time that I paid a $4.95 meal for him because he forgot his wallet. When we got back to his house, he looks in his wallet and sees a $5 bill and four $1 bills. Instead of giving me the $5 bill, he gave me the four $1s and proceeded to spend the next 30 minutes looking for 95 cents.
Ugh. I guess that tells us what he feels protecting his new wife is worth. This happens. It's very sad. I've seen a couple of second wives become financially devastated when their husband passes.

If your wife and SIL can't convince him to do the right thing here, everyone will just have to hope for the best.

If I were advising the new wife, I'd tell her to pressure her husband to rewrite the will. If she couldn't accomplish that, and she still wanted to stay married, she should purchase a life insurance policy on his life.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Topic Author
PatrickA5
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Life Estate for Father-in-laws New Wife?

Post by PatrickA5 »

JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:58 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:08 am
JoeRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 am
PatrickA5 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:12 pm He won't pay for a lawyer. Thinks they're only out to get his money. We would offer to pay for the new will or trust or whatever, but he'd never agree to it.
Okay. He wants something "more legal" but isn't willing to have a lawyer involved. That says he isn't really willing to pay to protect his new wife.

Which means her only real protection will be the good will of the people who inherit the home.

I feel bad for her.
He is willing to spend up to $100 - which is more than I thought he'd pay LOL!

Reminds me of a time that I paid a $4.95 meal for him because he forgot his wallet. When we got back to his house, he looks in his wallet and sees a $5 bill and four $1 bills. Instead of giving me the $5 bill, he gave me the four $1s and proceeded to spend the next 30 minutes looking for 95 cents.
Ugh. I guess that tells us what he feels protecting his new wife is worth. This happens. It's very sad. I've seen a couple of second wives become financially devastated when their husband passes.

If your wife and SIL can't convince him to do the right thing here, everyone will just have to hope for the best.

If I were advising the new wife, I'd tell her to pressure her husband to rewrite the will. If she couldn't accomplish that, and she still wanted to stay married, she should purchase a life insurance policy on his life.
His new wife is not the type to put pressure on him. I think she's from a generation that believes the husband control things and she's happy to let that be the case. Her former husband (passed away several years ago) reportedly took his 401K money and spent it all on a boat. She was happy for him to be able to do that. She's not going to insist on FIL doing anything for her benefit. On the positive side, they are very happy together and are glad they found each other late in life. She's been a blessing to us also since she's taking on the caregiver responsibilities that would have fallen on my wife.
Post Reply