Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

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psteinx
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Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

Eldest daughter has accepted lucrative, west coast, big tech (programming) offer, for next summer (she's in her last year of college now).

There is at least modest cause for concern about the big tech company's future (bad news).

Let's say things got a lot worse. Am I correct to presume that, on the totem pole of a possible downsizing/belt tightening, accepted offers rank lower than working employees? And that, if bad news came a bit after she started, new employees < senior employees? But she likely keeps any signing bonus $$$, assuming she actually starts the job?

And further, I would guess (but appreciate insight/confirmation/refutation) that the market is hot enough, that, in the case of a company specific (but not industry-wide) downturn, that finding a comparable new job should not be overly difficult?
sailaway
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by sailaway »

I actually would not necessarily think this to be the order of things. It tends to be existing employees with high salaries and mediocre contributions that are the first on the chopping block.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by KyleAAA »

Big tech tends to invest in their college talent pipeline while cutting elsewhere. New grads are their talent lifeline because many of them have difficulty attracting more senior talent. That said, sure, there's a point where they'd need to turn off that spigot. The probability of anything happening between now and next summer to cause that to happen to any of the big tech giants is pretty much nil. This is assuming you're talking about FAANGMO. Legacy tech companies are a different story.

That said, this is the hottest job market I have ever seen in tech. And that's saying a lot.
Last edited by KyleAAA on Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
drk
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by drk »

KyleAAA wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:03 pm FAANGMO
O == Oracle?
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by KyleAAA »

drk wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:03 pm FAANGMO
O == Oracle?
I just picked a random letter for whatever the new hotness is.
jarjarM
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by jarjarM »

The tech job market is hot enough for now that she can easily find another job if it's individual company issue. If it's industry wide minor slum, she'll still likely find another position given how much VC money is being driven into startups (that spigot won't be turn off easily). If the industry wide slum is as severe as dot-com bust, then all best are off. She can get a MS degree and then join the job hunt a year or 2 later, that's what plenty of CS grads did 2001-2003, including DW.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by jharkin »

sailaway wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:01 pm I actually would not necessarily think this to be the order of things. It tends to be existing employees with high salaries and mediocre contributions that are the first on the chopping block.
This.

Ive been on the other side of these decisions many time. The org will find ways to retain key contributors, even if it means letting going somebody mediocre from a well performing part of the biz and transferring the star performer from the underperfoming group to backfill.

Big salaries make you a target, just means you have to be even stronger.

But I have also seen offers in progress get rescinded when a hiring freeze come down. Not common but not unheard of.


Actionably - If she is concerned about this companies prospects and the job doesn't start until next May or so.... keep interviewing. If something better comes take it. Just make sure and do it ethically, formally decline the current offer before accepting another one and pay attention to any contract terms of what she has signed already.
DoubleComma
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by DoubleComma »

There are so many HR and Employment rules to downsizing you simply can't say "Last In -> First Out" or "Highest Comp -> First Out". So many people like to think that is the case, but RIF are really planned in detail.

When we look at restructures a couple critical considerations are 1) Will we still have appropriate resources in the correct location to perform the task and 2) What special classes of employees could be impacted that looks like there was an alternative nefarious cause happening.

In many places if you terminate a role in a location for any number of reasons that are NOT individual performance related and documented, you can't replace that role with out first offering it to the impacted employee in the next 18 months. If you are moving the role to a different location it needs to be a substantial move. You can't simply move to a building 10-20 miles away, it needs to be beyond commuting. If is a remote WFH role its even more challenging. That is why question #1 is critical.

Second, if you are impacting an employee that could look discriminatory even when its not, there is a reasonable possibility a case of wrongful termination will be filed. Like it or not, we live in a very litigious society. We had a role that was being eliminated a few years ago until HR and Legal determined the individual who held the role was 60. The elimination was turned into an optional early retirement buy out.

In tech where it gets even more hazy is H1B employees. Now I'm not an expert, and no longer work in a pure tech world were H1Bs are common, but if I recall correctly part of a H1B being granted is due to the skill and qualification not being readily available in the market. Therefore I would imagine a H1B employee retaining a role when a colleague doing substantially the same role as a non-H1B could get problematic.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by cchrissyy »

This happened to me - widespread economic trouble caused a hiring freeze and my post-graduation offer went away. (Intel 2001)

I wouldn't worry at all if her situation is regarding just one company. she'll easily get on to the next!
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by London »

Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by tomsense76 »

Also if she takes the opportunity to network/meet people, she can be in a good situation to change jobs. Assuming she is moving to the west coast (this isn't remote), then she will be in a good position to find a new job anyways. Plus people can grow their salaries quite a bit in tech by switching periodically.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by gatorking »

A big tech company I worked for fired newly hired college grads during the burst of the tech bubble in 2000. They were banned from participating in on campus job fairs for many years at multiple colleges.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by bogledogle »

London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
campy2010
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by campy2010 »

bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
stoptothink
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by stoptothink »

campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
That's sexist :confused My wife is in tech and it's the first thing she'll tell you. My ethnicity is an advantage in the workforce at the moment too, I'm not going act like it wasn't an advantage to me in getting my last job. Having an advantage doesn't mean you aren't competent.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by DoubleComma »

campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
campy2010
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by campy2010 »

DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
I agree with all of those things, but regardless it is completely unnecessary to bring in a woman's sex into the conversation simply because she's a woman. Even in good faith, it's unnecessary. These quips somehow always seem to imply that the bar is lowered to meet some perceived demand. More importantly many women don't like being talk about like this. We'd prefer to leave the conversation to our aptitude.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by sailaway »

My concern is that I haven't seen anything to suggest that the focus on diversity makes it easier for a woman to get a job than a man, just easier for a woman to get a job than it was before. Big difference there that these "oh, a woman in tech will have no problem" comments seem to suggest.
Last edited by sailaway on Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pizzy
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by pizzy »

campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:31 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
I agree with all of those things, but regardless it is completely unnecessary to bring in a woman's sex into the conversation simply because she's a woman. Even in good faith, it's unnecessary. These quips somehow always seem to imply that the bar is lowered to meet some perceived demand. More importantly many women don't like being talk about like this. We'd prefer to leave the conversation to our aptitude.
I’m surprised you aren’t berating OP for saying “daughter” instead of “child”….

The outrage!
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stoptothink
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by stoptothink »

pizzy wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:34 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:31 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm

+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
I agree with all of those things, but regardless it is completely unnecessary to bring in a woman's sex into the conversation simply because she's a woman. Even in good faith, it's unnecessary. These quips somehow always seem to imply that the bar is lowered to meet some perceived demand. More importantly many women don't like being talk about like this. We'd prefer to leave the conversation to our aptitude.
I’m surprised you aren’t berating OP for saying “daughter” instead of “child”….

The outrage!
Ha ha :sharebeer In before your comment gets deleted.
Marseille07
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by Marseille07 »

There's nothing to worry about, the offer will be honored. You're worrying about nothing for no reason.
ModifiedDuration
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by ModifiedDuration »

gatorking wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:24 pm A big tech company I worked for fired newly hired college grads during the burst of the tech bubble in 2000. They were banned from participating in on campus job fairs for many years at multiple colleges.
This.

Major corporations are very reluctant to rescind offers or fire newly hired graduates because of the possible recruiting-related repercussions at their target colleges going forward.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by milktoast »

psteinx wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:57 pm Eldest daughter has accepted lucrative, west coast, big tech (programming) offer, for next summer (she's in her last year of college now).

There is at least modest cause for concern about the big tech company's future (bad news).
Finding a new job for software should not be an issue with solid skill set. Frankly if they manage to start and make it at least six months before a big layoff, that can propel her career forward. Because now she will know people at six different companies rather than at one.

I would recommend that your daughter fire up linkedin. Get the virtual resume online in detail. Then link with her cohorts at university, link with her professors, link with the future boss at accepted job, link with any interviewers she can recall from that future job. If something goes south, that linkage will connect her to many people who are at companies who are hiring rather than laying off.
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psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

To be clear, there is nothing imminent and especially bad that I know of for her future (hopefully) employer. Just some bad news, that, if nothing else happens, is probably no big deal. Call it, say, a 1 in 10 or 20 chance that the situation really deteriorates at this employer in the next ~10 months. Nothing that should, at this point, have her really actively looking again - accepting this job offer (~6 weeks ago), eased her mind.

That said, it's nice (as a sometimes overly worried father), to hear that if things do go south, her prospects should be good.
Marseille07
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by Marseille07 »

psteinx wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:32 pm That said, it's nice (as a sometimes overly worried father), to hear that if things do go south, her prospects should be good.
The truth is no one knows. If tech goes sour to the point that your daughter's job is rescinded, god knows what the prospect is then.

But I'd estimate the chance of this happening is maybe 5% at most, not 10~20% like you were estimating.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by Afty »

I'd step up a level and ask, is it a good idea for your daughter to choose to work at a tech company that is potentially in dire straits, when most of the industry is flying high? Doesn't seem like a great situation to be in, even if the job is still there next summer.
Last edited by Afty on Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:40 pm maybe 5% at most, not 10~20% like you were estimating.
While "1 in 10 or 20" is perhaps not as clear as it could be, and rather seat of the pants anyways, I mean "1 in 10, or 1 in 20", so about 5-10%, not 10-20%...
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psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

Afty wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:44 pm a tech company that is potentially in dire straits
For privacy reasons, I prefer to not disclose the specific company or the specific issue/news, but again, while bad news, it's not **too** bad. Not "dire straits".

She had an internship with them this past summer, liked it, and liked the security of an accepted, lucrative offer without having to go through the full recruiting song and dance this fall (or next spring).
Last edited by psteinx on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ModifiedDuration
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by ModifiedDuration »

I hope we’re not talking about a FAANG here, because, it it is, I don’t think that any recent “bad news” about these companies is a reason for concern.
Last edited by ModifiedDuration on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MarkRoulo
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by MarkRoulo »

psteinx wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:57 pm Eldest daughter has accepted lucrative, west coast, big tech (programming) offer, for next summer (she's in her last year of college now).

There is at least modest cause for concern about the big tech company's future (bad news).

Let's say things got a lot worse. Am I correct to presume that, on the totem pole of a possible downsizing/belt tightening, accepted offers rank lower than working employees? And that, if bad news came a bit after she started, new employees < senior employees? But she likely keeps any signing bonus $$$, assuming she actually starts the job?

And further, I would guess (but appreciate insight/confirmation/refutation) that the market is hot enough, that, in the case of a company specific (but not industry-wide) downturn, that finding a comparable new job should not be overly difficult?
I've been in the tech field for 30 years, much of it at one company so my experience is limited but does cover many recessions.

"Am I correct to presume that, on the totem pole of a possible downsizing/belt tightening, accepted offers rank lower than working employees? "

The folks at the biggest risk of being let go by my employer during downturns are:
  • Engineers that have been with the company 3-5 years, and
  • Director level management and above
The newer engineers tend to be safe(r) from layoffs because everyone knows that we don't yet know how good they are.
The more experience engineers have already been through at least one layoff when they weren't "just out of college"
The folks in the 3-5 year range are the ones that folks (a) are confident that their skill level has been assessed roughly correctly and (b) are okay losing.

So your daughter is probably safe. If the company is rescinding job offers to NCGs (New College Graduates) then things are *very* bad for the company.


"And further, I would guess (but appreciate insight/confirmation/refutation) that the market is hot enough..."

It depends on what you mean by "west coast" and if she is willing to move. Seattle (with Microsoft and Amazon) is west coast as is San Diego (with Qualcomm) and Silicon Valley (with, well ... ).

Silicon Valley is still hiring madly, so if she would be there I'd expect things to be fine if it is just one employer that is hit. I'm guessing that Seattle is fine, too, but I don't know. No idea about San Diego.

And Intel has facilities in Oregon. I have no insight into the Oregon tech job market.

"West coast" is pretty broad, but I'd expect her to be able to find another programming job given that she already has found one.

[If things DO go badly for her, her resume should indicate that she was hired by the company and the offer was rescinded. Only do this if there are wide-spread offers from the company that are voided. It lets the other prospective employers know that the company DID want to hire her after the internship (and thus thought highly of her) and economic disaster prevented this ...]
Starfish
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by Starfish »

DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles.

Of course it is sexist but in the opposite way.
To see if something is sexist/rasist etc replace female with male, minority with white etc. If it sound like something a skinhead would say, it is because it is exactly that.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by pizzy »

Starfish wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:16 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles.

Of course it is sexist but in the opposite way.
To see if something is sexist/rasist etc replace female with male, minority with white etc. If it sound like something a skinhead would say, it is because it is exactly that.
This thread is wilin’ tonight
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

FWIW I joined a big tech company about two months before their first-ever layoffs. I've now been there for six years and it's been great so far.
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rob
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by rob »

Starfish wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:16 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles.

Of course it is sexist but in the opposite way.
To see if something is sexist/rasist etc replace female with male, minority with white etc. If it sound like something a skinhead would say, it is because it is exactly that.
Why all the PC police... This place is meant to be the place of reality & truth. You would not believe the conversations I've had with HR on this topic if you think this doesn't come into the equation. Not pushing an agenda - just reality in IT.

To the OP: Your over-thinking this... great for her!!
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by 8foot7 »

campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:31 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
I agree with all of those things, but regardless it is completely unnecessary to bring in a woman's sex into the conversation simply because she's a woman. Even in good faith, it's unnecessary. These quips somehow always seem to imply that the bar is lowered to meet some perceived demand. More importantly many women don't like being talk about like this. We'd prefer to leave the conversation to our aptitude.
Most of the women I know in tech professionally are all active members of various Women in Technology forums and get-togethers. Seems like those folks don't mind identifying themselves as women in technology vs. competent workers in tech. I suppose one's mileage may vary.
sailaway
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by sailaway »

8foot7 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:05 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:31 pm
DoubleComma wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:23 pm
campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm

+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
No, its not sexist, its because the Tech Sector has been very open about the need to attract women into their technical roles. Its also very open that schools are trying to get more females interested in STEM paths that will lead to STEM careers.

Many industries are trying to diversify their employee base. Its good for the economy, its good for the targeted demographic, and its good for the company. Having diversity brings new thought leaders to an industry that might not have otherwise landed there.

I don't think its a sexist comment at all, rather a comment of the current state of that industry.
I agree with all of those things, but regardless it is completely unnecessary to bring in a woman's sex into the conversation simply because she's a woman. Even in good faith, it's unnecessary. These quips somehow always seem to imply that the bar is lowered to meet some perceived demand. More importantly many women don't like being talk about like this. We'd prefer to leave the conversation to our aptitude.
Most of the women I know in tech professionally are all active members of various Women in Technology forums and get-togethers. Seems like those folks don't mind identifying themselves as women in technology vs. competent workers in tech. I suppose one's mileage may vary.
The question is, do the hiring practices mentioned actually mean that it is easier to get hired if you are a woman than if you are a man? I have not seen any statistics to support that and this trope has been around for at least a decade already, so it seems like if it were true, we would have those statistics by now. More likely, all the diversity hype from HR has made some strides towards equalizing the playing field.
drk
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by drk »

Afty wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:44 pm I'd step up a level and ask, is it a good idea for your daughter to choose to work at a tech company that is potentially in dire straits, when most of the industry is flying high? Doesn't seem like a great situation to be in, even if the job is still there next summer.
As a counterpoint, joining Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, or Snap during their rough patches has been very lucrative for anyone receiving equity compensation, and joining during those periods is like a cheat-code for promotions. At worst, OP's daughter has some wild stories to tell while interviewing for her next job.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
demdeah26
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by demdeah26 »

Facebook isn’t going anywhere OP, your daughter will be fine
HawkeyePierce
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

drk wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:19 pm
Afty wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:44 pm I'd step up a level and ask, is it a good idea for your daughter to choose to work at a tech company that is potentially in dire straits, when most of the industry is flying high? Doesn't seem like a great situation to be in, even if the job is still there next summer.
As a counterpoint, joining Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, or Snap during their rough patches has been very lucrative for anyone receiving equity compensation, and joining during those periods is like a cheat-code for promotions. At worst, OP's daughter has some wild stories to tell while interviewing for her next job.
Yup.

I interviewed for my current job the same day the then-CEO announced his resignation. My first day at the company was also the new CEO's first day.

Out stock dropped by 60% from when I joined, then went up by 500% from our low. The RSU grants I received during the "bad years" became very lucrative. Execs were showering anyone who stuck around with huge refreshers—it was such a mess I once got a new grant that even my manager didn't know was coming. Grabbed two promotions within three years along the way too.

Watching from the inside as a company rescues itself is an incredible business education.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by bogledogle »

campy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:59 pm
bogledogle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:46 pm
London wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:15 pm Competent female coders can get a job anywhere right now. I wouldn’t worry about this particular company.
+1

I don't know why old threads pop up like zombies on my screen, but it is a phenomenal advantage being a woman in tech right now. Especially a programmer.
Is it necessary to make sexist remarks? You're implying that women are more likely to be hired simply because of their sex. Not because they're competent. Or because there's a massive need for competent programmers. Please do better.
My comment is not sexist. Perhaps it reads like that to closet sexists trying to compensate as white knights on online forums, or perhaps you really don't understand what is happening in tech. So, let me explain it to you in simpler words.

Not so long ago, men dominated the tech world completely for reasons that are too complex to discuss here (may be they thought it was sexist to hire women?). In the past decade or so, when smart devices and internet started running the show, they realized that about half of their users are women and perhaps if they designed product that would be developed with them in mind they would be even more successful :moneybag :moneybag .... they looked around they did not find many women with the necessary skills. So they decided to start grooming and developing talent and enforcing diversity as a key factor in hiring and team composition.

"Diversity" does not mean the bar is being lowered to get hired .... sometimes the bar is just shaped differently. The bottom line is still :moneybag :moneybag ... you think these companies want to give money away? :D
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psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

Follow up with some specific Qs, *IF* she does have to scramble for a job, late:

Job uncertainty at accepted-offer company has grown since my OP.

Let's assume it's next March and daughter's offer is pulled. She wants to work in Bay Area (in-person, or remote), as her boyfriend has a job there.

She claims that the premium big tech companies do their hiring process in the fall, and is basically worried that she'll fall through the cracks or face generally worse prospects, as a soon-to-graduate senior without a job lined up.

I have little knowledge of the specific hiring/recruiting situation for premium tech jobs for new college grads.

My recommendations to her, should such a situation occur:

1) Reach out to everyone she interacted with, summer 2021, as an intern for the company in question. Some of them may be at new companies, or at least plugged into the job market.
2) Reach out to folks she interacted with, summer 2020, at a lesser internship in the Midwest. She doesn't really want to work there (far less $$$), but there might be leads to more premium West-Coast jobs.
3) Reach out to her professors at her top ~20 private uni. Unfortunately, it's in the midwest, so not as strong of West Coast connections, perhaps.
4) Reach out to those she's met TA'ing and in other ways through the university (grad students and the like).
5) *Maybe* reach out directly to West Coast recruiters? My thinking is that most recruiters are focused on poaching folks with at least some post-college experience under their belt, less so on new college grads.

She's also concerned that new grad developer hiring is based very heavily on tech interviews, and she's not strong there. She's done well in real world situations, at least 4 ways: 2 successful summer internships, consistent TA'ing during the school year, and a good GPA. But maybe a straight programming test/tech interview is not her strongest suit. (She only really got into programming late in her first year in college). I think the "curve" for tech interviews may be a little softer for a female, at least at some companies, and her demonstrated success should count for something. Also, if she IS looking for a job, circa March, she could cram for coding interviews then, in sort of the same way one crams for the ACT/SAT. But I dunno - it's sort of outside my domain.

Thoughts in general, and particular on the question of how disadvantaged she'd be if she had to get into this game, late, and tips for doing so...
pizzy
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by pizzy »

psteinx wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:44 pm Follow up with some specific Qs, *IF* she does have to scramble for a job, late:

Job uncertainty at accepted-offer company has grown since my OP.

Let's assume it's next March and daughter's offer is pulled. She wants to work in Bay Area (in-person, or remote), as her boyfriend has a job there.

She claims that the premium big tech companies do their hiring process in the fall, and is basically worried that she'll fall through the cracks or face generally worse prospects, as a soon-to-graduate senior without a job lined up.

I have little knowledge of the specific hiring/recruiting situation for premium tech jobs for new college grads.

My recommendations to her, should such a situation occur:

1) Reach out to everyone she interacted with, summer 2021, as an intern for the company in question. Some of them may be at new companies, or at least plugged into the job market.
2) Reach out to folks she interacted with, summer 2020, at a lesser internship in the Midwest. She doesn't really want to work there (far less $$$), but there might be leads to more premium West-Coast jobs.
3) Reach out to her professors at her top ~20 private uni. Unfortunately, it's in the midwest, so not as strong of West Coast connections, perhaps.
4) Reach out to those she's met TA'ing and in other ways through the university (grad students and the like).
5) *Maybe* reach out directly to West Coast recruiters? My thinking is that most recruiters are focused on poaching folks with at least some post-college experience under their belt, less so on new college grads.

She's also concerned that new grad developer hiring is based very heavily on tech interviews, and she's not strong there. She's done well in real world situations, at least 4 ways: 2 successful summer internships, consistent TA'ing during the school year, and a good GPA. But maybe a straight programming test/tech interview is not her strongest suit. (She only really got into programming late in her first year in college). I think the "curve" for tech interviews may be a little softer for a female, at least at some companies, and her demonstrated success should count for something. Also, if she IS looking for a job, circa March, she could cram for coding interviews then, in sort of the same way one crams for the ACT/SAT. But I dunno - it's sort of outside my domain.

Thoughts in general, and particular on the question of how disadvantaged she'd be if she had to get into this game, late, and tips for doing so...
Why can't she look now for a backup offer? Maybe she finds something better. And the uncertain offer can become the backup.
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jarjarM
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by jarjarM »

psteinx wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:44 pm
Don't worry about it too much, there's a talent war right now among big techs. She'll find another offer easily based on the the prestige of her education and just some basic tech skills. Your daughter don't need to go to the big name like FAANG where there are other 2nd tier companies that will pay just as well (okay maybe slightly less). Keep her option open and she'll be fine.
Yarlonkol12
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by Yarlonkol12 »

She has nothing to worry about, at all. Software people, even those early in career or new hires like your Daughter are Big Techs most valued assets and they know it.

Also, software people don't really need to do a "Job Search" in the traditional sense, especially those who get offers from big tech. It's more like you make an announcement that your available, then you wait a few minutes as the Recruiters will line up to grovel and offer anything and everything to hire you.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only.
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TechGuy365
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by TechGuy365 »

Experienced technical hiring manager at a MAMAA mega tech here. I wouldn’t worry about it too much for your daughter - early in career, dev background, Bay Area - all point to excellent potential. Companies are paying close to $200k total comp for new grad SDEs in high cost of labor (not of living) areas. If she loses an offer there are 5 other companies who will welcome her.

School ranking matters less than you think, but with top schools you do get the strong networks (for example, they can be feeder schools for certain high techs).

Just make sure she has her LinkIn profile is built up with details (experiences, internships, impact, projects, etc.) Recruiters will be calling.
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LiveSimple
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by LiveSimple »

OP, your daughter has studied well, interviewed and got an offer, she will do well.
Just relax, she will follow her dreams and knows how to navigate her life and career.

Why do you compare the general news to your daughter’s capabilities.stop the noise, enjoy life.

I am in tech as well, but now I cannot pass the interviews that my kids did pass and got an offer. 😂

I am sure that your daughter will get next jobs by references and connections, so no need to worry much, just enjoy the family.
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
NabSh
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by NabSh »

Well said.

1. Usually during any downsize it's the more experience and more expensive employees who are let go. Even during 2007-2008, most companies continue to hire new college graduates.

2. If she is good for 1 big tech. She can always find job in the next one too.

3. Agree with LiveSimple. I would not pass the technology interview of new graduates.

LiveSimple wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:31 am OP, your daughter has studied well, interviewed and got an offer, she will do well.
Just relax, she will follow her dreams and knows how to navigate her life and career.

Why do you compare the general news to your daughter’s capabilities.stop the noise, enjoy life.

I am in tech as well, but now I cannot pass the interviews that my kids did pass and got an offer. 😂

I am sure that your daughter will get next jobs by references and connections, so no need to worry much, just enjoy the family.
Topic Author
psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

To provide follow-up/closure on this:

Daughter felt rather unconfident in accepted offer. Pursued other opportunities, and has accepted an offer, with about the same comp, from a different, larger big-tech. Still planning to start this coming summer.

New employer seems quite enthusiastic about her, and more organized/clear in general about the onboarding process.

Thanks all for the input.
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by muffins14 »

psteinx wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:49 am To provide follow-up/closure on this:

Daughter felt rather unconfident in accepted offer. Pursued other opportunities, and has accepted an offer, with about the same comp, from a different, larger big-tech. Still planning to start this coming summer.

New employer seems quite enthusiastic about her, and more organized/clear in general about the onboarding process.

Thanks all for the input.
Why unconfident?

I’m not saying she definitely made a mistake because I don’t know all the context, but going back on a signed offer does create some disappointment, and sometimes people have memories such that they may change their perception of someone if they come across them in the future.
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psteinx
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Re: Big tech - downsizing between accepted offer and job start?

Post by psteinx »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:16 pm
psteinx wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:49 am To provide follow-up/closure on this:

Daughter felt rather unconfident in accepted offer. Pursued other opportunities, and has accepted an offer, with about the same comp, from a different, larger big-tech. Still planning to start this coming summer.

New employer seems quite enthusiastic about her, and more organized/clear in general about the onboarding process.

Thanks all for the input.
Why unconfident?

I’m not saying she definitely made a mistake because I don’t know all the context, but going back on a signed offer does create some disappointment, and sometimes people have memories such that they may change their perception of someone if they come across them in the future.
Limited communications and reassurances from originally accepted employer, in the context of having substantial reasons for both incoming and current employees to have concerns about that employer. To say more would be revealing more than I care to - sorry.

FWIW, I personally was at least somewhat less concerned about the situation than my daughter. But she has to live her life.
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